Orbiters and Boundaries -- Second Chance

[11012015]

You were given good advice already. Time to walk away but do it with class.

 

Stop picking fights with her or making anymore ultimatums otherwise you're only asking for drama. She's calling you out on being controlling likely due to this.

 

Walk away my friend. Be the better man.

 

I did walk away. Didn't talk to her for a week, during which she left me crying voicemails telling me she would do anything to make us work - just doesn't know what to do. I said if she wants this to work she should care about my feelings/discomfort and remove these orbiters from her immediate social network. That night she said she would do anything because she doesn't want to lose me, so we talked and I thought the issue was resolved. The next day and the day after ... while we continued to talk nicely, I realized nothing substantial was done about the issue. I was bothered by that and brought the issue back her again, which prompted the text above. I wasn't trying to create more drama. For me, she asked for a second chance, I told her what I considered to be a solution to an issue, she accepted it and then did not followed through.

Edited December 17, 2015 by 11012015

[11012015]

She might not think that way. It's foolish to expect a tiger to change its stripes. This is who she is. Either deal with it or don't. But putting up with it hoping that by some miracle it goes away is pissing into the wind.

 

The reason for the struggle is because I am not exactly sure if she is truly an attention wh*re or she is keeping these orbiters around because she doesn't have trust in our relationship. If it is the latter, I feel like there is hope as she may change her orbiter behavior once she realizes I am not going to leave her. I haven't done anything to betray her trust but she was cheated on by her first bf of 6 years (traumatic) and also found two of her latest bfs on dating sites. She even said she was a different girl before and acknowledged her trust issues. Just connecting the dots here.

[11012015]

Indeed the "Orbiters" are only there for one reason...

 

Men, by contrast, have zero interest in being mere 'friends' with women the wouldn't rather be banging (exceptions for neighbors, coworkers, and family friends, etc).

How do I get her to see that? I am not sure if she is that naive and can't see it OR she knows what she is doing and doesn't care anyway.

 

However, there is a major difference between a woman (encouraging/not-dropping/allowing) male orbiters and the opposite, which is a male not dousing (the flames of) female orbiters.

 

WOMEN CAN conduct themselves within the reasonable boundaries of a relationship they're in, despite and no matter the desires of the male orbiters which surround her like Jupiter's moons.

This is the argument she makes. She says as long as she doesn't have romantic/sexual interest in those guys, they are just friends -- even if they like her in romantic/sexual way. I find that argument problematic because 1) fake-friendship: a real friend doesn't have a motive to break up your relationship so he can have a chance 2) dishonest/unfair dating: a girl, who keeps orbiters around but says she won't act on it, is creating an option to move on with someone immediately whereas a guy can't go on a dating site and tell his girl he will keep those girls as friends and won't act on it. She then makes the argument that being on a social network like twitter and facebook is not the same as being on a dating site but we both know guys can hit on a girl anywhere, using any platform.

 

The natural response from a woman who is truly into you is to ignore and basically douse the flames of those male orbiters as she values her relationship and only her relationship.

She made that argument as well “ignoring vs removing” but I do not understand why one would ignore the improper, boundary-crossing attempts (while keeping the orbiters in the circle) rather than remove those people from the circle all together and fix the issue at the root of the problem. When she doesn’t’ do that, I wonder whether there is something else going on.

 

Women don't have to have it that way, they can get sex at the drop of a hat.

This is true and I know that too. She does tell me “trust me …” or “you either trust me or don’t …” and I do trust her. If I didn’t trust that she would not cheat on me (physically, at least) I would have been out the door long time ago. And, in all fairness, she does tell me when someone asks her out or an ex contacts her but I feel that her honesty on those issues doesn’t negate the improperness of the behavior (i.e. breaking her promise to me just to send an ex a 'thank you' text). I just don’t understand why she keeps these people around, when she appears to be completely in love with me.

 

 

... to the woman seemingly looking to maintain the relationship.

 

That is my issue. This girl, who is absolutely fantastic with the exception of this one problem, tells me she loves me, wants to marry me, have my kids, have a family ... and I believe her because she is so sincere. Yet, her actions somehow don't show that which bothers me. I am not sure if it is because she has a strong personality and doesn't want anyone to tell her what to do OR self-sabotage her relationship (something she admit to me once) because she has had so many cheating bfs that she completely lost hope & trust in having a serious relationship (hence, keeping the orbiters). I remember her telling me once "Don't let me to ruin this relationship." So I am trying.

 

I do get her argument that if she wanted to do something, she could do it in a second (yes, she is that pretty; so I get it) so I should trust her. True. But I am not sure why she doesn't understand this is not a trust issue but a respect issue respect (and me feeling disrespected) for me. I do not understand why she would not get rid of these people, if I am that important to her. Confusing.

[11012015]

People don't change like that and certainly not without a lot of solo work. Her need for attention stems from her low self esteem. You don't build self esteem through or with someone else. You build it from within. She'll never build it in the confines of your relationship.

 

I agree with you regarding the solo work. In her defense, she admitted to me:

 

1) she flirted with the twitter guy not because she liked him but because she was hurt by my words and wanted to make me mad & jealous

2) she acknowledged that behavior was immature and she wont do it again

3) she said she only mentioned her ex to get me to be sweeter and still, she shouldn't have done it and it was wrong

 

So I do see some growth here.

 

I realize it seems like I am trying to find a reason not to leave. Maybe so, because it is hard, when you are that emotionally invested. My logic/mind says leave but my heart says give her another chance in case this turn into something beautiful. I just don't know how to handle this issue.

[11012015]

OP, you have to realize you have achieved the boundaries of "reasonable" behavior when dealing with an adult.

 

You have expressed your concern and she has given you an answer (with her actions). At this point you are beating your head against a wall and she is playing the game of seeing how much resolve you have.

 

I hate to say this but I completely agree. Yes, she has given me her answer with her actions (even though her words say something else), so now I am debating what my reaction (to that action) should be. If I continue to talk to her she will think I do not have a backbone and she can get away with anything but if I demand too much (i.e. unreasonable demands, as she say) I might ruin something with a serious marriage potential. I didn't know what the proper reaction should be, so I came here.

[Simon Phoenix]

I hate to say this but I completely agree. Yes, she has given me her answer with her actions (even though her words say something else), so now I am debating what my reaction (to that action) should be. If I continue to talk to her she will think I do not have a backbone and she can get away with anything but if I demand too much (i.e. unreasonable demands, as she say) I might ruin something with a serious marriage potential. I didn't know what the proper reaction should be, so I came here.

 

Sorry dude, I'm not seeing healthy marriage potential here. You've said your peace, she's responded with her actions (which are what count, words are cheap) and that response is basically "take it or leave it". So either break it off and find someone that's a better fit or keep with this chick and deal with her love of orbiters. That's pretty much the only two realistic endgames in your scenario.

 

And her being like this because of an old boyfriend is Bulls---. If she's punishing you for something you have nothing to do with that's out of line.

[lolablue17]

You're too busy with her willing to change her future behavior, and forgetting more important issue - her personality. Action can be easily changed, and changed back, but it's hard even impossible to change you personality so quickly, if ever.

 

So what can we learn about her personality?

 

1. She's agreed to respect you and to listen to you only when she was under a threat to lose you for ever. It means she doesn't do anything "for you" only "for her". She is a selfish girl, who doesn't care about you or your feeling at all, only about herself.

 

2. She broke her promises many times - It means she doesn't take her own words seriously. It means she's the kind of girl who will say everything to get her instant short term interest, without really mean what she says. Her words worth nothing.

 

3. When she is upset about you, She does not hesitate to immediately making you jealous by flirting with other guys. That means she is a vengeful girl. That kind of personality does not go away, it will only get worth in years, and after marriage, so the "revenge flirting" will become "revenge sex with other guys".

 

I have 3-4 more indicators, but i really have no desire to bother about her. And this is the kind of girl you consider to be a marriage material? Are you nut's?

 

She isn't a criminal. Call her and tell her that you respect her needs, that there is nothing wrong with having lots of guy friends if that's whats she likes, but you and her are not on the same page. Tell her that you don't want her to change, she has the right to be who she is, only you don't want to be a part of her life anymore. Wish her happiness, and say good bye.

[11012015]

Not that this changes anything but just wanted to add:

 

Today she finally confessed that she wouldn't have done any of the things she has, if she was married (conveying that there would be another level of loyalty if she felt more secure in the relationship), and then acknowledged the chicken-egg logic that I (or anyone else) wouldn't marry her with the behavior she has displayed. She said her first relationship of 6 years (where the guy apparently repeatedly cheated on her with different women, and she found out towards the end) truly messed her up and she knows that she is broken in the ways she sees relationship now. Well, at least she showed me some maturity, instead of feeding me the same BS.

 

I agree with all the posts, though it still breaks my heart.