Fallen out of love with my wife

[CantCook]

I have to admit that her stories of sexual abuse seem somewhat questionable. I almost get the impression that she's using things that probably have happened to most young girls (boys wanting to play doctor or 'show me yours and I'll show you mine" games) as an excuse to blame her behavior on.

 

Just a thought.

Thanks Lois. Good point.

 

I hate to say it but I'm cynical enough to wonder if she's making this up or exaggerating. But it's really hard, I'm her husband I've got to support in this.

 

I didn't state this in my 'wonderful' OP how old the guy was, my bad. My wife was 10 or 11 at the time, this guy was 16 or 17 (6 years older than she was).

 

What do you think, that seems nasty to me not harmless if say the boy was 11 yrs old, too?

[CantCook]

You should have realised and put a halt on things at this point. Your steady GF does this... but then again you knew she was dating when she did the same to you... Most guys would not consider a serious relationship let alone marriage with a woman who did this.

 

I'm glad you're working through it all...but you had ALL THE warning and red flags going and chose not to address them with her before you got married.

 

Good luck.

I was dumb and she was pretty.

 

It was like a May Day parade the red flags before we were married.

 

Thanks for the best wishes, we can use it.

[turnera]

Hmm. I guess you're giving me a head's up that her childhood incident may not be the psyche-changing traumatic abuse event I was thinking it could be?

 

I guess a professional's opinion is needed, and her memory is pretty foggy about it. Anyone care to chime in if a single 'touching' incident at age 11 could mess her personality up as an adult?

 

Thanks t.

Not exactly the direction I was taking. What I was getting at was that if there was some OTHER sort of sustained abuse, like 3 or more times where she came to believe nobody would protect her, she might have developed a more severe form of dysfunction as a result. Most books about childhood abuse say that the female will likely go on to be self-destructive, promiscuous, and relate her sexuality with her worth. So, for instance, when her life isn't going as great as she wants, she may 'need' to go out and screw somebody to be validated. As screwed up as that sounds, it really does happen. And they have no clue they're doing it or why.

[turnera]

M: "Ya and CC can't please me because he's got a real small cock". And no it wasn't just in the spirit of I'm going to tease old CC, there was an undertone of "I need a real man". That's my gal, luv ya M.

Now, see, THIS is a matter of you not having proper boundaries and consequences. You TAUGHT her to disrespect you by allowing it.

 

What should have happened is when she said that, you should have stood up and said "I'm sorry you feel that way" (boundary) and LEFT (consequence).

 

She would have IMMEDIATELY felt ashamed and, hopefully, run after you and apologized. And never done it again.

 

Don't beat yourself up, most of us don't know this stuff off the bat. But you CAN use this moving forward.

[CantCook]

Now, see, THIS is a matter of you not having proper boundaries and consequences. You TAUGHT her to disrespect you by allowing it.

 

What should have happened is when she said that, you should have stood up and said "I'm sorry you feel that way" (boundary) and LEFT (consequence).

 

She would have IMMEDIATELY felt ashamed and, hopefully, run after you and apologized. And never done it again.

 

Don't beat yourself up, most of us don't know this stuff off the bat. But you CAN use this moving forward.

Should have split with her and had her chase me. Thanks t.

 

First book's here, "What Makes Love Last" by John Guttman, time to get to work.

[turnera]

Should have split with her and had her chase me.

Wrong. You should have left the room, or the building, because YOU WERE BEING DISRESPECTED.

 

Not so that she would chase you. It's not a game or a trick. That's what a Nice Guy does: choose actions in the hope of controlling what another person does.

 

A NON-Nice Guy, one who is ok BY himself and can walk away from a dysfunctional relationship, will simply LEAVE THE ROOM because he's being treated poorly and he simply doesn't have to put up with it.

 

NO thought about whether she would jump up and chase after him, because ... welll... he's ok by himself. Of course, she's going to LEARN from him walking away that he IS to be respected...or she'll continue to have him walking out on her.

[Cephalopod]

I agree with Turnera. You have taught your wife how to treat you. Now that you ask her to treat you differently, i.e. with respect, you will have to be twice as affirmed when she pulls another stunt like that. You cannot afford to be wishy-washy anymore. If you tell her you will do something, you better be ready to go through with it.

[sandylee1]

I agree that you failed to call her out on her disrespect years ago. Even if you never walked away after that comment (small c) you should have giving her a right dressing down at home and told her she better never disrespect you like that again or your done.

 

There's so much resentment from you now and I'm not sure if you just want to be done with her.

 

It might help to put in writing all those times she's behaved badly /disrespected you and send to her....so she can see how awful she's been. She needs empathy and she needs to know that all those things are making you question whether you want to remain with her. You've bottled it up for too long.

[merrmeade]

I think most people...even cheaters know that oral sex IS NOT flirting. Your H is/was in his own bubble there. Would he accept you flirting if you 'just' engaged in oral sex with a man? Nah... I didn't think so.

 

I'm quite a friendly person with everyone and perhaps some people take it the wrong way.. But I wouldn't sit on a man's lap or touch his thigh. Although when I was single... a guy told me he knew I liked him and that he could make a move on me (a move enough to produce a condom later in the evening) because I put my hand on his thigh while we were having a drink. That as well as smiling and tossing my head about. I honestly didn't realise I did that. But I was in my early 20s.. so I'll claim being naive.

well, of course he did! That's the whole point! He knew oral sex wasn't flirting and neither was intercourse. He was gaslighting me big time. But cheaters stop thinking after a point in the chase - probably at the first crotch or breast grab - and don't try to verbalize what happened until something forces them to. If it's a shocked spouse, they try to evade, generalize (wrap it all up in 'inappropriate flirting'), minimize, in short, do anything to avoid bringing their mindless romp to the light of day. It's lying and he knows it. Sorry if I sounded like either I or he actually believes the "flirting" bullshut. I put it that way to OP because as long as he buys her crap and agrees to call it 'flirting' he'll never know how far it went.

[sandylee1]

Sorry if I sounded like either I or he actually believes the "flirting" bullshut. I put it that way to OP because as long as he buys her crap and agrees to call it 'flirting' he'll never know how far it went.

 

I knew you didn't believe it was flirting.. I thought your H tried to convince himself (or you) that it was.

 

Given my experience described of thigh touching... I do wonder what would happen if a man took it as a signal and decided the OPs wife wanted more ..... if the OP wasn't there would she go further?

 

Given her behaviour pre marriage ...unbuttoning men's shirts while in a relationship... it seems the OP could have had her while she was with his friend and the OPs friend could have done the same.

[RecoveringSlowly]

While your original comments about her were horribly brutal, I do like the fact that you can see and admit that.

 

Here is the problem, at least one of them: your resentment is preventing her from recovering your trust, and both of you from recovering your marriage. The thoughts we have in our quiet, tired moments are usually indicative of our state of mind. You believe that she is slutty, and the only positive contribution to her marriage is how she looks and how she ****s. Is that really true? Or are you allowing your bitterness to erase all the positive memories of your time together?

 

Your wife sounds like she has been self medicating a severe mental illness with alcohol and sexual validation. That is not an excuse. Her behavior was distrespectful and inappropriate. It showed a complete lack of care for both you and your marriage. I have always found women who demasculate their men are unconscionable, just as bad as men who call their wives sluts. It is hard for me to display a great deal of sympathy for you when your treatment of her here is as bad as her treatment of you.

 

I think you have a screwed up relationship dynamic. BOTH of you need IC, you need MC together, and she needs AA. Binge drinking for years is not a fun time, it is alcoholism, and alcoholism will always destroy your relationships. This conversation should have happened ages ago. No, I don't think it is fair to hate her for behavior that occurred, and was handled, long ago. You are holding a grudge. One of the most important things I learned as a BS is that, if you actually want to give your M a chance, is that you have to learn how to forgive and cooperate. Anything less, and the only reason you are staying is to punish her.

[Ladyjane14]

While your original comments about her were horribly brutal, I do like the fact that you can see and admit that.

 

Here is the problem, at least one of them: your resentment is preventing her from recovering your trust, and both of you from recovering your marriage. The thoughts we have in our quiet, tired moments are usually indicative of our state of mind. You believe that she is slutty, and the only positive contribution to her marriage is how she looks and how she ****s. Is that really true? Or are you allowing your bitterness to erase all the positive memories of your time together?

 

Your wife sounds like she has been self medicating a severe mental illness with alcohol and sexual validation. That is not an excuse. Her behavior was distrespectful and inappropriate. It showed a complete lack of care for both you and your marriage. I have always found women who demasculate their men are unconscionable, just as bad as men who call their wives sluts. It is hard for me to display a great deal of sympathy for you when your treatment of her here is as bad as her treatment of you.

 

I think you have a screwed up relationship dynamic. BOTH of you need IC, you need MC together, and she needs AA. Binge drinking for years is not a fun time, it is alcoholism, and alcoholism will always destroy your relationships. This conversation should have happened ages ago. No, I don't think it is fair to hate her for behavior that occurred, and was handled, long ago. You are holding a grudge. One of the most important things I learned as a BS is that, if you actually want to give your M a chance, is that you have to learn how to forgive and cooperate. Anything less, and the only reason you are staying is to punish her.

 

Unprofessional opinion... but I'd say anxiety. Alcohol numbs up anxiety fairly well, and you can keep it tamped down for years. The down-side is loss of good judgment, hence the poor decisions and flirting.

[CantCook]

Hi to LS. Thought I'd give an update, it's two weeks since I posted last.

 

First, thanks again to LadyJane for recommending "What Makes Loves Last". The book has helped get the logjam in our marriage unstuck. We each have a copy from the library and are reading it. M is actually finished it, to my amazement, finished it quicker than I have.

 

Things are improving, the best we've been in 15 years. Lots of affection between us. We've had some really nice moments over the holidays, M (my wife) is like Mrs. Claus, xmas is a BIG deal for her, lots of time spent with family, dinners, etc. (BTW I chose my LS name 'CantCook' in awe of her pre-xmas cooking extravaganza). We spent several days visiting with family, one day at my inlaws, I felt like crap that morning, had 2 hrs sleep the night before. M went over there early, I was hemming and hawing about going. Before she left she said she really wanted me to join her. Me thinking "Means a lot to her, just do it." Went and worked out in the basement and hauled my ass out of town to the inlaws. Haven't had so many laughs in months. Might have been a case of pent up emotion and needing to laugh, but it was great, had lots of fun visiting. My SIL can be a pistol, she was on fire that day making the day fun for everyone.

 

We got home that night I was sitting in front of the computer, M sits beside me and tells me how proud she was of me 'entertaining' everyone that day. Me: "Really? Thought I was just a bit more outgoing than normal". Then M says "I really tried to be a couple out there and pay attention to you". I thought "hmm", told her you're right, we normally don't connect at all at family events she's gone from me the moment she's in the door. I told her sometimes I get a bit lonely by the end of the day at these family parties. Then I said "Neat how that works, we act as couple, show each other some attention, you end up being proud of me." I guess I must have subconsciously fed off her attention and relaxed a bit more than normal. Anyway that was kind of cool.

 

So I've had MMSLP sitting here unread, still in the amazon envelope for 18 months or so. Quite leery about diving into it, my concerns were its philosophy was very self-centred, and ranking yourself and others was a turn off, something I hoped I'd grown out of. My concerns were misguided, it's a good guide for a man to self-improve. I'm about 1/2 way thru reading it. Read 15 or so threads at the MMSL forums, mostly men's, but a couple of women's too, getting a feel for how this philosophy works for people improving themselves and their relationships. Works pretty well in my estimation.

 

I debated sharing my voyage into MMSLP with M. Generally the man is supposed to work on your **** and stfu about it. Telling your wife you're trying to improve lowers your alpha-ness. But I thought to hell with that, we've been apart emotionally too much too long, let her in on this. Result is great, after a discussion, we decided to order a copy of Athol Kay's Mindful Attraction Plan for each of us, and I'm going to run a MAP, and she's going to run a FAP (a male/female attraction plan following MMSL guidelines). People run these for 12+ months so it can guide your personal improvement efforts for quite a while. Might work well.

 

Lastly, as per "What Makes Loves Last", we had our first weekly State of the Union meeting about us. It was good. My jaw hit the table when M tells me she wants me to phone the polygraph tester and get a test scheduled. Get this over with and behind us. Is on me to make it happen, we both agree it should. So there's that.

 

Things are good, I appreciate all comments up to now.

 

P.S. turnera - meant to tell you, I don't know how anyone could have provided an answer to my question "five hour round trip drive to polygraph, how do I make trip bearable", you actually had a go, thanks you're a sweetheart

[Ladyjane14]

That's an awesome update, Can't Cook. It's nice to sign in here every now and then and find somebody making progress.

 

You know, like you... I've been married a long time, over three decades now. And I honestly think there comes a point with men when machismo just doesn't cut it anymore. All that "the man is supposed to work on your **** and stfu about it" starts feeling hollow and the craving for real emotional connection becomes more important. So, I really think you've done a lot to get that ball rolling. Great job!

[oldshirt]

That's an awesome update, Can't Cook. It's nice to sign in here every now and then and find somebody making progress.

 

You know, like you... I've been married a long time, over three decades now. And I honestly think there comes a point with men when machismo just doesn't cut it anymore. All that "the man is supposed to work on your **** and stfu about it" starts feeling hollow and the craving for real emotional connection becomes more important. So, I really think you've done a lot to get that ball rolling. Great job!

 

 

 

Although I am not on the MMSL forum I have read Athol Kay's books and I do follow the blogs and forum posts there occasionally and MMSL is not about "machismo" at all.

 

 

The reason MMSL encourages men to read the material and enact the action plans initially without disclosing to their wives is because until the changes made become permanent the wife will often just think it's a headgame to score more sex and that really isn't the point or the purpose.

 

 

Until someone does have a real grasp about what MMSL and until they have integrated their lifestyle changes and improvements into their daily life, it often is best to keep it to themselves at least initially.

 

 

Luckily in this case "M" was ok with it and saw it in the manner it was intended which was for Cant'cook to become a better man and better husband and father etc and she was supportive. Many women however don't see it as that and see it as a PUA mind trick to score more sex and they get pissed and it sets things back.

 

 

MMSL isn't about machismo at all. It is about becoming a better version of yourself and becoming a better man, husband, father and leader in your family.

[sandylee1]

It's really great to hear you're doing so well.....such delightful news.

Keep up the good work...sounds like M really wants to be the best she can for you.

[bathtub-row]

It seems to me that it's a little late in the game to start getting ticked off about past behavior and suddenly making it a deal breaker. I'm not saying that her behavior wasn't bad or that she doesn't need to stop that like yesterday, I'm just saying that it sure has taken a long time to get to this point. And now it only seems to be about having fallen out of love with her.

 

I think the two of you just need to forgive each other and try to work things out. The two of you would be more lost without each other than you realize. I would also try to have a little compassion. It's very typical of women who are sexually abused to behave promiscuously. Also, that thing about her mother and father is completely soul destroying. It's no wonder she has been acting like a lost soul.

 

I feel for you and I know it's no fun being in a bad marriage. If it's that bad, then leave and try to start over again. But it's not always that easy and you'll never have the history with anyone like you have with her.

[CantCook]

Ladyjane: your comment aligns with why I was leery, particularly I'm of a certain age, you know? But I think oldshirt is in the right of it. It's about getting a good balance in your personality of alpha and beta traits. I'd think the majority of men searching for answers in MMSL need to up their alpha game, I'm going to try. In a marriage where the wife won't respond to attempts to repair things, MMSL consuls the man to work on himself in many facets in the hope the wife see this and feels safer, appreciated, more alive, aware, hell even jealous of the attention her husband is now getting, whatever helps or is needed to move their marriage dial in a positive direction.

 

Now that I'm started on this path, what I'm finding hard is it's kind of overwhelming. Beats being stuck in the rut I was in though.

 

b-r: What can I say I feel what I feel. Part of it I'm sure is I'm no longer caught up in the rat race of my career, part of it is our marriage's death spiral had hit the bottom. I'd had enough. Hey I never said I was the smartest guy around... would have nice to have this epiphany 20 years ago.

 

b-r resentment becomes an old comfortable friend after a while, easier to hang out with him and be angry, fight old battles, woulda coulda, than fix things. But he's a miserable s-o-b. You hang out with him a long time and his buddy regret shows up, along with guilt that you've stayed where you are so long. Lots of 'fun'. Athol Kay talks about a husband's withdrawal from a marriage being a form of infidelity, too. Don't like wearing that one, but I guess that's on me.

 

M's trying to line up some counseling for her childhood abuse incident / history, I realize that childhood abuse can lead to promiscuous behaviour in adulthood.

 

As for me, time to quit looking back and start looking ahead. Easy to say.

[CantCook]

LadyJane, and sandylee: thank you for your best wishes,