Dealing with wife's affair.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Hey BigMan.

 

If you consider that they've been reconciling. She was doing all the 'right stuff' for 3 months. She's obviously VERY proud or she wouldn't of blown-up & moved into the spare room & stopped trying when he told other people (family & friends). Consider that she did convince herself that they had marital problems... CONTROLLING...(I know they all have excuses but it's based on something)...

 

Would you give the same advise?

 

Please, I'm truly interested, for myself also. Please don't say 'stuff her' she doesn't deserve anything etc. because that doesn't help if you want to keep your family together.

 

I'm a bs so I KNOW!

 

As a woman, as ME, I wouldn't react well to divorce papers....if you want to keep me.

 

....although it's against my instincts I realize that R takes 2. It SHOULD be all on the WS because THEY committed the crime but doesn't "SHOULD" just get you divorced & resenting each other?

 

I am not answering for big man....but I want to comment on this....

 

I am both a ww and a bw....so I have a perspective of both sides of the story.

 

Sometimes...divorce is the answer. Closure is the answer....and I can't say for sure in this case.....because it is not about me...but it certainly is about vbm....and only he can make the decisions for him.

 

His wife.... Is not showing any remorse of any kind.

 

Look...I don't care if he took out a newspaper ad declaring her a ho......she is not in any way helping this man heal. This is all about her. This is not about keeping this family together.

 

this man needs help...and she is not supplying any help whatsoever.

 

He can hang on...he can give her more time...he can wish it away....he can hope it away.... I believe he even said one time he was going to will himself happy....

 

But none of that works...if she is not doing her part.

[katielee]

Healthy human beingness starts first with self love. Really, if you don't love yourself you don't have much to offer anyone else. OP- you're spinning your wheels as fast as you can trying to get her to love you. You're actually looking at the wrong person.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Thinking about your problems....

 

I really want to give you advise but I'm frozen on one point. Your wife says that the pre-affair issue was your control. That's like saying "I wanted you to be LESS alpha. More passive. Give me more freedom with support".

 

I don't like very alpha men. I like gentle, sensitive, conversationalists.

 

I do remember being young & having a boyfriend I split with who was VERY upset & 'stalked me', crying & begging. I HATED that! But it was a very different situation.

 

I know on the forums the most common advise is 'be tough', 'be foreceful', demand, throw her out etc. (all the alpha stuff)

 

See where I worry about what advise to give?

 

If I say 'Take control! File for divorce!' Am I just telling you to be controlling?...& that was her initial complaint!!!

 

Can you talk about the controlling thing more?

 

My H blamed my sickness & health!!! I don't know how valid the reasons WS give are..... Ugh!!

 

You asked one of the most relevant questions that involve certain core issues that my wife and me have been trying to address. That centers around the word "control"

Now, this is one quality that I have tremendous amount of, much more than the average Joe. I have plenty of control and patience. The complication arises because if I exercise that control and patience on myself, its no problem, but if I expect my loved ones (my wife and my kids) to also exercise the same level of control and patience, that becomes a big problem.

 

There is a fundamental and significant difference in the control and patience levels between my wife and me. Her actions have proved this, by the lack of control she has shown by her emotions and actions by having this affair. I'm quite the opposite personality: I'm very thoughtful, premeditative and deeply think about the repercussions on myself and others for everything that I do.

 

I have also observed this in our attitude in life, in the way we drive and in so many other aspects of our life. I'm the "safe" person, who plans well and likes all the ducks in a row. My wife seems to be more spontaneous, even a little careless and wreckless I might add. Now that I think about it (Your question sparked me to think about this more deeply), the way we used to live our life was like this.... I was very careful and controlled about everything, mostly about money. Fundamentally, I don't think there is anything wrong with this. It wasn't that I wouldn't spend money under any circumstances. It was more that I looked for the cheapest cost for the best value I could derive for the needs for our family and myself. I chose a good, fairly large home (4000 sq. ft.), keeping the future needs of the family in mind (11 years ago we had just had our first child when we got this home built). My point is this.... I exercised control (perhaps too stringently I admit, based on my capability and expected her to do the same). The control itself has not resulted in a bad situation or lifestyle for us. We have a decent life and infact the possibility of an early retirement has been exactly because I exercised the level of control I did.

 

What would anyone say if I now see retirement as a possibility for my wife (maintaining this same lifestyle) in about 5 years (at 43) and for me in about 6 years (at the age of 50)? I certainly think it was worth it, but maybe my wife doesn't because she would have rather spent more money to enjoy the present rather than plan aggressively for the future.

 

So, I think her perception that I was too controlling is partly true (I admit). That does not justify her having the affair (which is the other opposite extreme of the control I had and expected).

 

In the 15 years we were married, when I asserted control in any way, she used to submit to me (grudgingly, kicking and screamingly). She thought that if she resisted, it would be grounds for me to be unhappy with her as a person. The other aspect is that she herself perceived her happiness to be the result of external factors (like not having any feeling of having or being controlled). We both view control very differently as individuals.

 

Your observation may be correct in the fact that if I serve her divorce papers, it may be viewed as me wanting to control her (all over again), and we may be repeating history. She may either succumb to the pressure and just do whatever I need to heal (but suppressing her own feelings of perceiving me to be too controlling), or she may rebel and just decide to NOT do what is needed to help me heal or heal the relationship, only because of the perceived control. Either reactions are counter productive.

 

What I really should be doing is this: Serve her the divorce papers irrevocably, only if I'm sure I cannot live with her anymore and that I really do want to move on. I should not use (or even expect) the divorce papers to serve any other purpose than my intent to truly divorce.

I should not leave any opportunity for her to misconstrue the divorce papers as a form of pressure, to control her.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Before I forget..... Anxiety medications have worked better me than antidepressants. I don't have a depressed chemical imbalance! I have PTSD type symptoms with tons of anxiety.....my whole life has changed! My REALITY has been stolen!

 

Anxiety meds, 24hr slow release & instant release for 'emergencies', have brought less side effects & emotional confusion, lack of focus etc.

 

Thanks for that tip. I plan to try anxiety meds. There are 2 on my list, based on some suggestions I got from 2 friends: 5HTP and "Kava Root". I refer to try non-prescription alternatives first (to save costs). What do you use?

[Naively.Sensitive]

I'm glad you took it that way, I truly am!!

 

I realized that I just keep asking you to answer questions....then I think...then I ask more without giving much!! I'm in a similar boat in so many ways.

 

Something I'm starting to embrace is...I've chosen to reconcile. I'm still very angry & totally betrayed. I feel like my reality has been stolen from me.

 

I've said before...it's like the pope dying & being met at the 'gates' by Buddha saying "Wow dude you got it so wrong!!".

 

I CAN'T move on expecting everything from my H. That's the terrible thing! We get damaged, crippled & at the worst time in our lives we too need to help fix things. It's not fair. It's not right but it's the fact.

 

Step 1. Choose what you're trying for.

 

I'm trying for reconciliation. Might not happen. I have the POWER to change my mind whenever I want. If I want to know deep inside that I did my very best for my family, my kids & myself I need to swallow my pain sometimes & analyze things from my H's point of view. WE need to get through this. It's about US when reconciliation is chosen.

 

It sucks!!!

 

I think I'm going to be taking more advice from you than some others who think I should throw the towel of divorce at this stage.

My intent is clear: I'm choosing to try to reconcile. But intent and outcome are 2 different things as you rightly pointed out.

 

The next most relevant question is: "How do I create the desired outcome starting with my intent?". The part answer to that question is that it would require an effort from both of us, so there is no way I can guarantee that outcome based on my intent alone.

 

The next most relevant question is: "What can I do (my part) to foster what she needs to do (her part) to create the desired outcome?". This is the relevant question which I'm trying to seek answers to, by others in this forum. Can anyone else jump in and help with any advice, preferably based on first hand experience of what has worked for them? Or even ideas would help.

[MidwestUSA]

 

What would anyone say if I now see retirement as a possibility for my wife (maintaining this same lifestyle) in about 5 years (at 43) and for me in about 6 years (at the age of 50)? I certainly think it was worth it, but maybe my wife doesn't because she would have rather spent more money to enjoy the present rather than plan aggressively for the future.

 

 

I have to ask. What is stopping HER from divorcing YOU? Please don't say you're staying together for the kids.

 

I'm just curious what it would do to your 'control' if she laid papers on you.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Reading all that you have written, it strikes me that you seem intent on reasons, rationalizations, explanations, justifications, and a whole lot of other multi syllable words.

 

Here is something new to try... ACTION. Just go a different direction. You don't have to hate her, find her ugly, figure out what she can do, what you can do or anything. Just go in the opposite direction.

 

Go see a lawyer, pay the fee, file, serve, wait for the blow up, continue the course. Put your head down, ear plugs in and keep going. You'd be amazed at what might happen. Actually, at what will happen.

 

What do you think, predict or know WILL happen? I am trying for a certain outcome of reconciliation and have to be very careful about only doing things that maximize chances for reconciliation.

[bigman1]

Therein lies your problem. YOU are trying for a particular outcome. A marriage is TWO people working together.

 

1 plus 0 does not equal 2. 2 minus 1 does not equal 2. You can try to make those numbers add up to 2 but they never will.

 

To answer your question, I think, know and predict failure so long as you keep trying to make this work with only one. Also, absent some real therapy for yourself, even if somehow you manage to keep this thing together, you will be miserable.

 

I does not matter to me if you stay married or get divorced. I know that you will be miserable either way, given your current path. I actually do care about that, as much as one anonymous stranger can care about another on an open internet forum.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Hey BigMan.

 

If you consider that they've been reconciling. She was doing all the 'right stuff' for 3 months. She's obviously VERY proud or she wouldn't of blown-up & moved into the spare room & stopped trying when he told other people (family & friends). Consider that she did convince herself that they had marital problems... CONTROLLING...(I know they all have excuses but it's based on something)...

 

Would you give the same advise?

 

Please, I'm truly interested, for myself also. Please don't say 'stuff her' she doesn't deserve anything etc. because that doesn't help if you want to keep your family together.

 

I'm a bs so I KNOW!

 

As a woman, as ME, I wouldn't react well to divorce papers....if you want to keep me.

 

....although it's against my instincts I realize that R takes 2. It SHOULD be all on the WS because THEY committed the crime but doesn't "SHOULD" just get you divorced & resenting each other?

 

ShatteredLady,

 

My heart goes out to you. Thank you. Thank you for that advice.

You are TRULY helping me. Its important to know how a woman might react to divorce papers. Now, my question is: If you were the WS (were you?), would your reaction still be the same to divorce papers from the BS?

 

The other fact you mentioned is so true: Its the WS that "should" be doing most of the work in reconciliation, but "should" and "is" are 2 different words. The bottom line is that life is VERY UNFAIR. So, maybe another relevant question is this: How does one live life "unfairly" for a while (and in tremendous pain) to achieve a certain desired result? I guess it also depends on how badly one wants that result.

 

For me, the truth is that I have lost a majority of the motivation for that result. Even though I want that result, its not badly enough that I'm willing to do anything for it. If not anything else, this incident HAS taught me (from a spiritual perspective) that nothing on this planet earth (and during our human lives) is worth "wanting" to such a degree that it becomes the only focus of one's life. Everything is temporary anyway: Even our life on this planet, so why "pine" or "want" something to such a degree? Another personal development that I'm working on is this: To continue to want something as badly as I do, but to not be disappointed or deeply pained if I don't get it or its not happening. I think the 2nd approach is probably a healthier way to live one's life.

 

I think that certain aspects of the 180 also fit into this way of dealing with the infidelity. To build oneself up to such a degree that the past infidelity does not bother oneself anymore. If I can achieve that result then I would have achieved a humungous victory for myself.

 

The question is how do I also do what I need to do to foster an environment in which my wife "wants" to give me what I need? (i.e. give me the emotional connection and a lot of sex)

Can I work on 180 (personal and individual healing) and the above together or is the above counterproductive to 180?

[Naively.Sensitive]

Marriage is conditional love. As it should be. Life changes, events change, and people change. Infidelity is not--by a long shot--the only muderer of marital love.

 

You cannot ever, EVER make someone love you or want you. Naively Sensitive, that seems to be what you want to know. "How do I make her want me again?" It seems your criticism of therapy is the same as your criticism of Love Shack. "Nobody wants to help me with what I can here for."

 

We are, but you cannot see it. You cannot hear us all saying that . . .

 

There. Is. Nothing. You. Can. Do. To. Make. Her. Want. You. Again. Regardless. Of. Marital. Contract.

 

Nothing.

 

Emotions are not controlled by contracts of any type.

 

That is why you must focus on only you.

You literally have no, zero, nada, none other choice.

 

I am sorry.

Peace.

 

It will get better once you stop believing that you have any control over her, much better.

 

I agree with everything you are saying, except that I don't want to "make" her want me. I simply want to do everything I can so she can express what may live deep inside her... Whether that be love or no love. We did start our life with her truly loving me, and I have not fundamentally changed since then as a person, so either THOSE were not her true feelings (love), or THESE are not her true feelings (no love). I simply want to know thats all, but under these circumstances of extreme stress, trauma and in view of her actions, I don't believe that the true feelings of a person surface, because they get clouded by the loud noise of strong emotions.

[Naively.Sensitive]

You know what you really need to do?

 

Get mad!

Get really angry that your wife, your love did this to you! Protect yourself! Be upset! Be furious! If you are not furious at her mistreatment of you, why should she feel bad? You are teaching her that what she has done to you is ok. Because you want her. And you are not angry. And you are not done with her. Forget words--they do not matter. You are telling her that it is ok.

 

Be outraged and disgusted!

 

It is you that does not need her.

 

I am furious and mad at her most times during the day. Those are my natural reactions, so I don't have to do anything to contrive them. I'm also in tremendous pain at the same time. At many times in the day, if she upsets me by trying to pressurize me in any way, I sometimes tell her to "get lost", out of my bedroom (that she moved out of anyway, 5 months ago).

 

The truth is that I DO "need" a passionate relationship, but it does NOT have to be her that I continue my life with. I get that and I'm sure she gets that too, by my natural behavior.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Healthy human beingness starts first with self love. Really, if you don't love yourself you don't have much to offer anyone else. OP- you're spinning your wheels as fast as you can trying to get her to love you. You're actually looking at the wrong person.

 

You are right. However, I have been trying to heal independent of her for the past 5 months, but healing hasn't fully happened. What must I be doing wrong?

How do I love myself? Is that even possible?

I believe its only possible to "be loving", not really possible to "love oneself":

See this video:

[Naively.Sensitive]

I have to ask. What is stopping HER from divorcing YOU? Please don't say you're staying together for the kids.

 

I'm just curious what it would do to your 'control' if she laid papers on you.

 

I obviously have no control over what she does.

I would assume the divorce is what her real intent is.

 

If she laid papers on me, I would either sign them if the terms were reasonable or hire an attorney if the terms of the divorce were unreasonable.

What are you really wanting to ask me?

[Naively.Sensitive]

Therein lies your problem. YOU are trying for a particular outcome. A marriage is TWO people working together.

 

1 plus 0 does not equal 2. 2 minus 1 does not equal 2. You can try to make those numbers add up to 2 but they never will.

 

To answer your question, I think, know and predict failure so long as you keep trying to make this work with only one. Also, absent some real therapy for yourself, even if somehow you manage to keep this thing together, you will be miserable.

 

I does not matter to me if you stay married or get divorced. I know that you will be miserable either way, given your current path. I actually do care about that, as much as one anonymous stranger can care about another on an open internet forum.

 

You are absolutely correct, but seem to think I'm denying anything you mentioned here.

I don't expect to make this work on my own, I only expect to do what I can to make the environment most conducive and favorable for what she needs to also do to make it work.

 

I also know that I will have to put in my own personal work for my own independent healing, irrespective of her efforts, whether the marriage works out or not.

 

I appreciate your care very much. That is why, I AM on this forum, because inherent human nature IS to care and this forum IS giving me the love, care and support I need. So, I'm very grateful to you and other members of this forum!

In a world that is so lonely that I'm spending the New Year's night alone, in my bedroom, (for the first time in all my life I think), I truly appreciate the members on this forum.

[ShatteredLady]

What does she say if you ask her to come back to bed as wife & husband?

 

What does she say when you tell her you're hurting & need her help?

 

Do you over-analyze & not ask & state blatantly?

 

I know she said that things would change during & after your planned vacation. I can't find what happened there?

 

I got stuck with the insanity of my H saying that he didn't feel "special". When I asked what he needed to feel special his reply was always "if you love me you would know!! If I tell you you will just do things because I've told you to!".

 

I get what he was saying but it's crazy making. I'm sick! I was doing as much as I could. He didn't get how much pain & effort things were taking me. It's like he thought we (me & kids) went into stasis when he left the house. He saw us getting out of bed, went to work, saw us getting into bed. So....I did nothing but get out of bed & get into bed.

 

I know it sounds silly now but that's what was in his head!

 

You've been together for a VERY long time. She hasn't behaved like this for 15 (?) years. What's changed?

I get that she was pursued & manipulated but let's be honest....I'm a reasonably attractive lady. I've been pursued but I've never got close enough to be manipulated....but he was getting her a good job????

Was this 'The perfect storm', never to be repeated or was your relationship really in trouble before she betrayed you?

 

Before I get jumped on.... I'm brain storming here. I do have self respect!! I understand the "run for the hills & don't look back" advise. There are nights that I'm crying myself to sleep wondering if I'm doing the right thing AND I worry that we're rug sweeping to a certain extent BUT I want my little family to stay together. I've given this ALL of my adult life....What's another 6 months or year??

 

I can try to see this from EVERY angle & work towards what I want.... It's so hard to understand someone who I gave everything to, who I loved unconditionally, who broke my heart BUT if I don't it's divorce!

 

He doesn't want divorce. He was more screwed-up than me!! Expecting him to heal me when he was so very broken was unrealistic. I can't fix him...I'm a mess! All we can do is our best to muddle through this.

 

We BOTH want the same outcome AND I know only a time machine will give us that easily....it's bloody hard!!

 

I can say "He did this! There is no excuse, no reason...." He needs to be punished & grovel me back... BUT that's NOT going to get me what I WANT!!

 

Ugh!! I don't know. The pain is blinding.

[Naively.Sensitive]

It's obvious that you want to ignore everyone's advice and try to get your wife back. It's understandable, but that still doesn't mean it's the right thing.

 

You keep asking how can you be more attractive to her? How can you tell what she's thinking, etc?

 

Here's the best dating advice I can give you - "To get a girl, you have to be willing to lose a girl." The person who cares the least about an outcome of the relationship holds the most power. It may seem counter-intuitive, but you win her back the same way you leave her, by showing strength and taking away her power. She's obviously attracted to the alpha type, powerful man (hence banging her boss) and you are the exact opposite of that in her eyes. From this point forward, never, ever, ever let her see you sweat. She needs to wonder what YOU are thinking, not the other way around. Even if you have to fake it, you need to become cold and indifferent towards her. Single women want a challenge and you are not a challenge.

 

Get her served with divorce papers, sign the lease on a new apartment, sign yourself up for therapy, gym, etc. Maybe even sign yourself for a dating site. Then and only then will you truly know how she feels. She's never had a chance to miss you. She's never truly been scared of being on her own. Most importantly, she's never felt the level of jealousy that she needs to feel to know what she's lost.

 

As far as what she's thinking, just look at her actions. I know exactly what she's thinking - "F that chump."

 

And I'm still not backing down from my assumption that she's in another relationship. Putting you in another room proves to her boyfriend that you guys are just roommates now. I'm sure he just felt odd sleeping with her in your room, so this was a compromise to make him feel better about it.

 

Are you in a position to hire a private investigator?

 

She asked me on some occasions on what my intent was. I made it clear (looking at her straight in the eyes), that I am trying my part to make things work, but either outcome is fine with me (if it works or not).

 

On some occasions she has seen me cry and in pain, but that could also be construed as crying about what has happened (feeling sorry for myself), not crying about possibly losing her. She has also seen me angry at most times during the day and not making any of my own attempts to connect with her, emotionally or physically.

 

She also knows that I have developed some women friends and I have met some for coffee.

 

The truth is that I'm becoming more and more OK with the idea of either outcome, so my attitude should reflect in my behavior as well.

[ShatteredLady]

On the subject of the video...

 

I believe that perception is everything. We are a jumbled mess of nature & nurture. Know yourself. Know who you want to be AND know who you need to become to be truly happy.

 

I don't believe that it's wrong to measure your happiness by the happiness of those you love. Love means different things to different people. I'm a hapless romantic. I believe in FAMILY. for me that's what comes after meeting, getting hot, falling in love, building that intimacy, HISTORY, life experience shared..

 

'Together we will see things I'd never see....'

 

Could I find a partner who will GIVE more to me? Could I find a partner who I could GET more from? The answer to those questions is uncertain.

 

Could I REPLACE what I'm loosing by divorcing? For me (just ME with my muddle of nature & nurture) NO!

Everything & anything of any value will be less.

 

It's so hard to explain in words on a computer screen, particularly with a fear of reactions while I'm fragile. Normally my world is my bubble (With a bit of charity thrown-in because it pleases me in certain ways) I care about those within my bubble but for some reason in the last year I've become a person who can be reduced to a tear flooded, snotty mess by complete strangers.....

 

I doubt myself in ways I never did. Is that what people mean by "Loving yourself"? Do I love myself less because I NEED & I'm fragile?

I've spent my life believing that certain ways of thinking, acting, creating, living etc are better for me, those around me & the world.... And I've strived to become more like 'that' & I have....does that mean I LOVE myself? I LIKE me, I'm very very fond of me & the way I relate to the world in general.

 

Love has so many meanings but we assume we're all talking about the same thing when I don't believe that we are....

[ShatteredLady]

Why are you spending New Years Eve alone in your bedroom? I hope that you're not now. Where are your family?

 

Do you live close to extended family? I know that you've spoken to them. Are they in a different country? I live in the USA & all of my family are back in England. That's really hard for me.

 

Could you plan a visit home WITH your wife some time soon? Just being an extended family together, you getting support & her learning that she's not 'outcast' or hated by your family & friends now could really help....Have you sorted her feelings about you telling others about everything? That's clearly HUGE for her....

 

Have you gone out as a family? As a couple? You know? Be 'normal'? I've found that the kind of 'forced normal' of going to functions, parties & events has REALLY helped us. My H seeing me be 'ME' interacting with other people & watching people react to US, the couple, has brought us closer together.

 

I reached a point where I'd be shocked that I felt 'ok' for a while. Even hours could pass without me thinking about it! I'm not saying I've made it a whole day yet without thinking about it but it's not completely, overwhelmingly, constant, ugh! anymore.

 

I hope you're ok.

[thecharade]

Naively Sensitive--

 

I think I have read all of your posts, but maybe I have missed some things.

 

1. How is your W treating you besides without affection? Like a friend? Ignoring you? Kindly?

 

2. I mean you no offense (honestly), but you continually mention her not having sex with you. I am a little uneasy with the way you phrase this. It almost sounds like you are being denied something you feel you have a right to, like she is your property. I am sorry, but I do not view marital sex that way. It is almost like you are saying you can handle most everything about how she is behaving except she owes you sex! Is this how you feel?

 

3.* What else besides money does she accuse you of "controlling"? Restaurant choices? Date nights? Hobbies? Fun? Family outings? Vacations?

 

4.* You keep saying that you know you can't control the outcome of this, but what should you do to have the best chance. Do you see the contradiction? Asking how to have the desired outcome IS trying to control the outcome! Hope for the best but assume the worst and move forward. You have no other real choice.

 

5. How much MC or IC are either of you doing?

 

6. Codependents (I have been one forever) always feel they are being responsible in doing anything and everything to save the R. They are proud of themselves--true martyrs, mature adults, selfless human beings. The problem is how much codependents do not think about, worry about, take care of, or protect themselves while the takers in their lives just take and take and leave them exhausted and empty handed. Did you say that you read up on codependency?

 

7.* I know you are hurting and feel very alone, but you are not alone. You have many wonderful things in your life, namely yourself! We have to be there for ourselves during the hard times, telling ourselves what we need to hear--self soothing. Google it! Self soothing works. People we love and count on can always leave us--death, disability, divorce, illness. We. Have. No. Control. Give yourself the gift of learning to love you without a relationship, and your marriage will stand it's best possible chance. I promise. You do not need to embrace hate toward your wife or move quickly to divorce her; just take all the love you have and shine it on yourself. The Internet will teach you how if Google it enough different ways. Pretend she is very ill. How would you conduct your life?

 

Your 2016 is going to be very different and very powerful for you, I can feel it. You are never alone. The world is wide open and waiting for you, with or without your wife. You can grow tons either way.

 

Peace and hugs.*

[MidwestUSA]

I obviously have no control over what she does.

I would assume the divorce is what her real intent is.

 

If she laid papers on me, I would either sign them if the terms were reasonable or hire an attorney if the terms of the divorce were unreasonable.

What are you really wanting to ask me?

 

I want to know if she's afraid of you.

 

I'll be honest, the way you talk about sex, the porn star thing, raises the hair on the back of my neck. I see that as something that two people do willingly, for mutual enjoyment, not as atonement.

 

When we woman use the term control, and go so far as to use the term 'control freak', there is a running undercurrent of fear. Fear of that control resulting in a blow up, or frequent blow ups. And we feel beat down, powerless.

 

In no way is what your wife did acceptable. And I'm in the camp of infidelity being a deal breaker. So I'm wondering why, if she's well aware that she can't/won't/doesn't want to do what you want, she doesn't walk first? You seem to be financially set such that neither of you would suffer, and you'll both retire at a perfect age for a new start.

 

It's just that the amount of analyzing here is staggering. It's time to reach for the Charmain, get up, flush, and start moving, one way or the other.

[ShatteredLady]

To be honest (as I've already said elsewhere) the way you talk about sex is concerning. You do know that if your wife gives this to you, the way you want (the words you use) you will be causing irreparable damage don't you?

 

I'm still unsure if it's your phrasing or attitude. If it's the later there's something fundamental that you don't get about women & sex.

 

 

It's a hard thing to see through all the pain....she's still a hurting person. You are blinded by your pain (very, VERY rightfully so) but I do not believe that you want to punish her but you do give the impression that you 'need' her to pay her dues. That can't happen. Not sexually.

 

I still believe that the 'control' issue needs more analysis.

 

The pain of infidelity can be blinding & if you want reconciliation you need to see clearly.

 

R is so very much harder than divorce in a lot of ways. I still worry that D is a lot more painful than R. I don't know I just hope for the best...

[Naively.Sensitive]

What does she say if you ask her to come back to bed as wife & husband?

 

What does she say when you tell her you're hurting & need her help?

 

Do you over-analyze & not ask & state blatantly?

 

I know she said that things would change during & after your planned vacation. I can't find what happened there?

 

I got stuck with the insanity of my H saying that he didn't feel "special". When I asked what he needed to feel special his reply was always "if you love me you would know!! If I tell you you will just do things because I've told you to!".

 

I get what he was saying but it's crazy making. I'm sick! I was doing as much as I could. He didn't get how much pain & effort things were taking me. It's like he thought we (me & kids) went into stasis when he left the house. He saw us getting out of bed, went to work, saw us getting into bed. So....I did nothing but get out of bed & get into bed.

 

I know it sounds silly now but that's what was in his head!

 

You've been together for a VERY long time. She hasn't behaved like this for 15 (?) years. What's changed?

I get that she was pursued & manipulated but let's be honest....I'm a reasonably attractive lady. I've been pursued but I've never got close enough to be manipulated....but he was getting her a good job????

Was this 'The perfect storm', never to be repeated or was your relationship really in trouble before she betrayed you?

 

Before I get jumped on.... I'm brain storming here. I do have self respect!! I understand the "run for the hills & don't look back" advise. There are nights that I'm crying myself to sleep wondering if I'm doing the right thing AND I worry that we're rug sweeping to a certain extent BUT I want my little family to stay together. I've given this ALL of my adult life....What's another 6 months or year??

 

I can try to see this from EVERY angle & work towards what I want.... It's so hard to understand someone who I gave everything to, who I loved unconditionally, who broke my heart BUT if I don't it's divorce!

 

He doesn't want divorce. He was more screwed-up than me!! Expecting him to heal me when he was so very broken was unrealistic. I can't fix him...I'm a mess! All we can do is our best to muddle through this.

 

We BOTH want the same outcome AND I know only a time machine will give us that easily....it's bloody hard!!

 

I can say "He did this! There is no excuse, no reason...." He needs to be punished & grovel me back... BUT that's NOT going to get me what I WANT!!

 

Ugh!! I don't know. The pain is blinding.

 

A few months ago, she was the one who subtly started to ask me (on certain occasions when we fought) about how come I did not ask her to come back into the bedroom? On most of those occasions I told her that she was the one who left the bedroom and I wasn't going to be the one to ask her to come back. It would have to be her initiative. Then, on later occasions I reflected back on some prior conversations during which she had mentioned that whenever we previously fought in our marriage, it was always her who initiated approaching and talking to me.

So, on later occasions I actually gently asked her if she would come back into the bedroom. She responded by saying that she would think about trying to come back after we returned from our 8 day vacation (We returned 3 days ago)

 

I asked her once more 2 days ago, more like asking her if she would like me to continue to ask her. She responded by saying that she needed a few more days to process her emotions.

 

I have stopped initiating the conversations in which I tell her my pain and ask her for her help. I used to do that many months ago, but then stopped for various different reasons. After that, on rare occasions she asked me about how I was doing and I just told her some facts of how hard it was for me to get through every single day, how hard every morning was with emotional as well as physical pain in my gut and in general, how serious an impact this had on me. On other rare occasions, she asked me what she could do about it. I told her that I needed a lot of empathy, hugs and time spent with me, sometimes talking and sometimes just being physically there for me. On other occasions (when she was upset after an argument) she confronted me about my need for passionate sex with her. I simply told her that it was what I felt I needed, but there was no pressure or coercion from my side. She used to respond in a cold manner, even about my needs for empathy and hugs. About my need for passionate sex, she told me that she could not live out any sexual fantasies or things like that for me.

 

During the vacation she did try to connect with me, by asking if I would like to hold her hand during walks on the beach and things like that. Sometimes I was in an angry mood and simply said "No", and at other times, when my emotions allowed me to, I did hold her hand. I did not push myself to feel any certain way. I just went with the flow.

On some occasions she asked if I would join her in the hot tub. Again, I just went with the flow, based on my emotional state. 2 days before we returned, she said it would be better if we showered together and I went with the flow. She kissed me on my lips during the shower and I just let her kiss me, but did not feel like reciprocating with a passionate response.

It felt like she was respecting her own emotions by taking baby steps, so I wanted to do the same and respect my emotions too.

 

Yes, we have been together for 15 years, a long time, and things have definitely changed. Its obviously after the affair that things have changed. In the 15 years of our marriage, our romantic life degraded from both of us towards the other person. She used to be a little more expilcit about intimacy, would take more initiatives, etc. As a comparison, on our first night when we landed in this country as a married couple, when we were about to passionately make love, she asked if I had a video camera that we could use. I was a little surprised (but excited as well) and went, "Huh"? On other occasions, when we traveled to other international destinations on vacations, we took pictures of ourselves making love and she seemed excited about it. Even after the revelation she made of her affair to me, in the first 3 months, there was hysterical bonding that we both wanted and during that time when I suggested (and asked) making sex videos of ourselves to help me get over the PTSD, she seemed to gladly agree. We even selected lingerie for her together and ordered it. She would try out the lingerie and tell me how she liked it. She seemed quite excited about it all and even told me that she thought I was going to buy a 2nd camera for "another angle". She would take the initiative sometimes to pose for sexy pictures and videos and also take the initiative to want to take passionate pictures of both of us in foreplay.

 

Our relationship was rough before her affair, but it was rough in ways that it is for many couples. We used to fight about money, silly arguments and had not been intimate for about 6-8 months before this affair happened. There was also stress in our jobs. I would regularly try to comfort her about her job stress, almost on a daily basis, but she kept repeatedly complaining about the same things over and over again, and after many months of giving her the same career advice I gave her, I started to get frustrated and would sometimes respond by telling her that "no job was ever perfect" and would ask her to deal with her job problems (like a pushy coworker) on her own. I had a hard time at work too, but generally used to tackle my own problems. We used to have good times too, but in routine ways, like going out to eat twice a week, like clockwork. Life may have become a little routine and mechanical, but again, none of these I believe are excuses to ever go astray and betray the most sacred trust in a marriage.

 

I recognize what you say about both of you being a mess. My wife often uses that phrase and also uses the analogy that 2 blind people cannot help each other (referring to ourselves), but I don't seem to understand why that analogy holds true for us. Why can't a husband and wife help heal each other, even if they are both emotionally in pain? A common friend of ours also uses the phrase that "she cannot be the cause of your pain and the medicine for it too". I can't understand why not?

 

I can also completely relate to the extreme conflicting emotions that you must be going through, because I go through them too. On one hand I try what I can to make things work, but on the other hand, there is tremendous conflict in whatever I do to "try", because I'm in so much pain and suffering because of her, yet, I'm expected to somehow push that pain aside "for the greater good" of our relationship. Life really is unfair, because currently, I'm in pain and suffering and I'm not getting back relief or anything in return for that pain and suffering, except a hope and a future prospect of the relationship being restored to its full passion. I view my pain and suffering simply as an investment that I hope will pay off in a couple of months.

[Naively.Sensitive]

On the subject of the video...

 

I believe that perception is everything. We are a jumbled mess of nature & nurture. Know yourself. Know who you want to be AND know who you need to become to be truly happy.

 

I don't believe that it's wrong to measure your happiness by the happiness of those you love. Love means different things to different people. I'm a hapless romantic. I believe in FAMILY. for me that's what comes after meeting, getting hot, falling in love, building that intimacy, HISTORY, life experience shared..

 

'Together we will see things I'd never see....'

 

Could I find a partner who will GIVE more to me? Could I find a partner who I could GET more from? The answer to those questions is uncertain.

 

Could I REPLACE what I'm loosing by divorcing? For me (just ME with my muddle of nature & nurture) NO!

Everything & anything of any value will be less.

 

It's so hard to explain in words on a computer screen, particularly with a fear of reactions while I'm fragile. Normally my world is my bubble (With a bit of charity thrown-in because it pleases me in certain ways) I care about those within my bubble but for some reason in the last year I've become a person who can be reduced to a tear flooded, snotty mess by complete strangers.....

 

I doubt myself in ways I never did. Is that what people mean by "Loving yourself"? Do I love myself less because I NEED & I'm fragile?

I've spent my life believing that certain ways of thinking, acting, creating, living etc are better for me, those around me & the world.... And I've strived to become more like 'that' & I have....does that mean I LOVE myself? I LIKE me, I'm very very fond of me & the way I relate to the world in general.

 

Love has so many meanings but we assume we're all talking about the same thing when I don't believe that we are....

 

In many ways, my idea of happiness is also similar to yours. However, I may have visualized happiness for others differently than how they visualize it for themselves. e.g. I always thought that if I created a "secure financial future" for my family, it should bring them happiness, because perhaps, if my wife retired early from her job, that might be one of the greatest gifts I could plan for her.

 

I am also a highly sensitive person, more empathic than most other males. I also do get affected by other people's (even strangers') pain. I cry during emotional movies with any sad scenes.

 

As you mentioned was the case with you being happy with who you are, I also feel the same way. I enjoy my own company and my identity but often question and doubt myself. Infact, I have never doubted myself in my entire life as much as I have doubted myself after my wife's affair. If I were to "design" myself from scratch using a blank sheet of paper, I would still be happy with my identity, however, the pain and suffering of the affair is so severe that I have almost lost my own sense of identity in the disorientation that I experience.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Why are you spending New Years Eve alone in your bedroom? I hope that you're not now. Where are your family?

 

Do you live close to extended family? I know that you've spoken to them. Are they in a different country? I live in the USA & all of my family are back in England. That's really hard for me.

 

Could you plan a visit home WITH your wife some time soon? Just being an extended family together, you getting support & her learning that she's not 'outcast' or hated by your family & friends now could really help....Have you sorted her feelings about you telling others about everything? That's clearly HUGE for her....

 

Have you gone out as a family? As a couple? You know? Be 'normal'? I've found that the kind of 'forced normal' of going to functions, parties & events has REALLY helped us. My H seeing me be 'ME' interacting with other people & watching people react to US, the couple, has brought us closer together.

 

I reached a point where I'd be shocked that I felt 'ok' for a while. Even hours could pass without me thinking about it! I'm not saying I've made it a whole day yet without thinking about it but it's not completely, overwhelmingly, constant, ugh! anymore.

 

I hope you're ok.

 

I was alone in the same house as my wife and 2 kids. My wife rarely comes to my bedroom, except to call me when lunch or dinner is ready. I rarely go to her bedroom. The kids are always engrossed in their own world, often on the iPad or playing with their toys. I do spend some time with them during the day.

 

We did land up watching a movie at home, together, as a family, but its usually a passionless exercise for me when my wife is also there. It feels like her presence sometimes causes pain for me which distracts me from enjoying the present moments. This does not always happen. At other times, her presence makes me feel that she is only there because of me (even if she is bored or just "expectant" of me in some way) and that makes me feel that she cares about me.

 

My extended family lives in India, however, my wife clearly shows inhibitions about traveling there because some family and friends now know about the affair and my pain. My mother has generally been nice to her and only encouraged both of us to try and work things out. However, in general, my wife does not think highly of my mother and my mother obviously has greater interests of her son in mind than of her daughter-in-law. Both my mother and I did offer and encourage my wife to visit India, but she obviously shows her inhibitions to travel back, in light of everything that has happened. That is why she probably chose this last vacation 2 weeks ago, to another international destination (not India) with a beach.

 

The 8 day vacation was as a family, where we did try to lead a "normal" vacation. We also typically go out every weekend as a family for some activities for the kids. During the week we also occasionally connect at home. However, it does seem "fake" at many times, between my wife and me, but we try to do it anyway.

[ShatteredLady]

No! She damaged you & SHE needs to fix you. That's the really crazy of adultery recovery I think. I believe that although she is Xxx (Whatever %) responsible for her damage YOU have to fix her. You BOTH have to fix the marriage & yourselves & eachother.

 

 

The problem is they're just words. What do we all mean by those words?

 

I need my H to fix me. I need him to be sorry, open, communicative etc. if him crawling around like a dog on a leash would make me regain my sense of control he not only can tell me to f-off he can also JUDGE me for wanting it & add it to our list of marital issues!

 

That's an extreme but adding retribution or domination to the guilt & disgust often felt by the WS isn't going to work. I hope that's not what you're doing when you talk about her 'giving you what you need.'

 

 

Again.... I understand your depression & pain. She should be understanding BUT are you being mean & cruel when you're feeling it? I understand so so many reactions at the start but if you're demeaning her after this time.....

 

 

I hope you understand what I'm saying & don't take offense. Your words can be taken in more than 1 way & as said earlier 'it raises the hair on the back of my neck' when I read certain things....