Dealing with wife's affair.

[merrmeade]

Yeah, and then most of us grow up and realize that's all just bullsh*t you watch on tv and it's not real life. Just took you a little longer to see it, is all.

NO! This ^^^ is not at all what he's saying.

While that maybe the truth and reality that both my wife and I am in the process of discovering, it is certainly not the cultural and social conditioning that we have grown up in.

In the cultural environment we have grown up in, there are romantic movies, sacrifice of feelings and emotions for the one you love, struggle against society to be with the one you love, the concept of "soul mate" and the union of 2 souls and 2 bodies into one. Its all very sacred, and a significant part of life in those cultural societies. It is very revered.

I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it has worked for so many couples.... Where one's happiness lies in the joint happiness of the family,... where there are no individual agendas to happiness.

This is the culture we have grown up in. Its a very very different culture.

NS, I feel this pain for you because I know and love this aspect of your culture. As I've told you privately, I've spent many years of my life there. I have seen and been close to this attitude and reality you describe. I have seen how people "fall in love" after marriage (rather than before) and treat each other with tenderness and deep respect for life as they dedicate themselves to their families together. It absolutely works there and is beautiful to see when it does.

 

I've wondered what your wife's background is. Was she born here or there? Did she grow up with the same ideals intact as you? Because it is not working for you either individually or as a couple, and you must figure out what you must do about that.

 

I am from a western culture. My parents had a very strong marriage and were very independent people. It worked for them. But I do not compare their marriage with the marriages I've seen in your culture. Also, NS, there is more and more divorce in your culture as well. It does NOT work for everyone these days.

 

The cultural expectations absolutely cannot be underestimated here, and you MUST explain them very carefully to your therapist. THEN, NS, you must promise me that you will watch and listen carefully to whether or not your therapist really and truly gets it and adjusts his/her guidance accordingly. If not, you must change and keep up your hope.

 

Next, and most important, I want you to think about this, NS, and consider making it a theme of your therapy:

You are - in my opinion - possibly grieving the loss of this cultural ideal and expectation that you

so

eloquently describe in post #1157. You are staggering and confused from this loss because you don't know how to replace it or with what. This is what therapy is about for any of us.

Edited February 17, 2016 by merrmeade

[Naively.Sensitive]

After I had been married a while, I started feeling my H disappear. He grew more quiet, the decisions were mine to make virtually alone, he stopped taking care of himself and exercising, he just became completely agreeable in an almost invisible way--went to work and then came home and did as he was told. He was not the guy I dated who lifted weights and rode his bike daily, had hobbies and friends, and had very different views and interests. I begged him to look at himself. Why had he changed? We fought more, and he constantly said, "I love you." All I heard was, "I need you. Take care of me." It gave me the creeps, like an icky old man breathing on my neck. I started telling people, "I don't have three kids, I have four! But I really wish I had a husband!" But it was not funny. At all. I felt so, so, so alone. I went to IC weekly. One of my IC's asked about my H. "Oh, he's a nice guy. It's not him, it's me." I still remember the look on her face-- so sad for me. After years of drama and an A and a separation, we are both still in IC. He is trying to find himself again, realizing that he expected me to fill every void.

 

I am the life raft; he is drowning. And I just want a D. I want a partner. I did not sign up for this.

 

This is a cautionary true tale. Don't be us.

 

That is scary. But don't abandon your H when he needs you the most. Yes, he is needy, but I can understand how you may not be able to fill every need of his. Can you atleast not abandon him? Yes, you did sign up to be there for him, in sickness and in health, when you married him. That is what marriage means. You promised and took a sacred vow. Don't break that vow.

 

Is your husband clinically depressed? Is he the one that had the affair?

Is he taking medication or help?

 

I don't want to be your husband, but it sounds like I am in that state. I wasn't like that. I was full of hobbies, joy, energy. It was my damn wife who had the affair. Now, I'm like your husband. I freaking mess. I am going to take help, as I mentioned. Is my wife going to abandon me? Are you going to abandon your husband? Don't. Drag him to counseling, drag him to a psychiatrist, drag him to meditation, yoga, do something, but don't leave his side, unless he's not a nice guy or is evil or something. If he is weak, that does not mean he is evil. He needs you.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Infidelity is hard for anybody....especially man. I know I wouldn't be able to forget my wife but In the end its up to you to forgive. You have young kids and that would make it harder to leave. The questions that remain are; are you willing to forgive her and know that you will never be the same man again with her and your marriege will never be the same again either. Good luck.

 

Yes, I can forgive. When I ask myself that, I know that I can, however, I have not been able to 100% forgive as yet. This is partly because my wife has been getting on with her life, living it as if nothing happened, putting forth more and more of her own emotional needs, when my pain is so severe and I need her badly. How do I even begin to forgive in this scenario? I WANT to and I CAN, but not under these circumstances.

I can completely forgive if she commits to me 100% and helps me heal. That would be proof that she really stood by me in my pain.

 

Forgiveness is very hard and is not automatic. I should be able to feel that she deserves to be forgiven. Many times I don't, because of how she behaves.

 

Maybe I need to learn about unconditional forgiveness? Maybe this is what life is trying to teach me and will not stop bothering me unless I learn this lesson?

[Naively.Sensitive]

If/when you can become a whole person who is independent and stands on their own - then you can add a healthy, whole person to a relationship.

 

That will be the bright side of all this. That you can progress and rely on yourself for your happiness.

 

I hope you will!

 

Yes, I'm heading in that direction, with medication if necessary.

[turnera]

I don't want to be your husband, but it sounds like I am in that state. I wasn't like that. I was full of hobbies, joy, energy. It was my damn wife who had the affair. Now, I'm like your husband. I freaking mess. I am going to take help, as I mentioned. Is my wife going to abandon me? Are you going to abandon your husband? Don't. Drag him to counseling, drag him to a psychiatrist, drag him to meditation, yoga, do something, but don't leave his side, unless he's not a nice guy or is evil or something. If he is weak, that does not mean he is evil. He needs you.

 

NS, the real question in her situation - AND yours - is whether or not the man is willing to do the work to fix himself.

 

If he DOES get help, DOES to to therapy, do the homework, change his outlook, stop depending on her to give him meaning...sure...stay.

 

But if he instead just keeps telling her she HAS to stay for him, DON'T abandon him, he NEEDS her...well, he's not really doing any work, is he?

 

If you don't do the work described here and - I'm sure - by your IC as well, then there's nothing wrong with your wife leaving you, after YOUR refusal to fix yourself.

 

You see that, right?

[turnera]

Yes, I can forgive. When I ask myself that, I know that I can, however, I have not been able to 100% forgive as yet. This is partly because my wife has been getting on with her life, living it as if nothing happened, putting forth more and more of her own emotional needs, when my pain is so severe and I need her badly. How do I even begin to forgive in this scenario? I WANT to and I CAN, but not under these circumstances.

I can completely forgive if she commits to me 100% and helps me heal. That would be proof that she really stood by me in my pain.

 

Forgiveness is very hard and is not automatic. I should be able to feel that she deserves to be forgiven. Many times I don't, because of how she behaves.

 

Maybe I need to learn about unconditional forgiveness? Maybe this is what life is trying to teach me and will not stop bothering me unless I learn this lesson?

This is all pointless until you stop focusing on her.

[drifter777]

Yes, I can forgive. When I ask myself that, I know that I can, however, I have not been able to 100% forgive as yet. This is partly because my wife has been getting on with her life, living it as if nothing happened, putting forth more and more of her own emotional needs, when my pain is so severe and I need her badly. How do I even begin to forgive in this scenario? I WANT to and I CAN, but not under these circumstances.

Every WS wants to put the affair behind them and never, ever talk about it again. When you bring it up or refer to your recovery her thought is "Jesus Christ - not again" and her attitude automatically turns sour. If she is truly remorseful she will be able to take a deep breath & remember how important it is to your marriage that she take the time to help you - however shi*y it feels to revisit this all the time. It's no mystery why she reacts this way and, unfortunately, no mystery why she doesn't see it as a necessary step to R.

Maybe I need to learn about unconditional forgiveness? Maybe this is what life is trying to teach me and will not stop bothering me unless I learn this lesson?

There is no such thing. All this means is you have chosen to swallow your feelings and give her a pass for the whole mess.

[BetrayedH]

Yes, I can forgive. When I ask myself that, I know that I can, however, I have not been able to 100% forgive as yet. This is partly because my wife has been getting on with her life, living it as if nothing happened, putting forth more and more of her own emotional needs, when my pain is so severe and I need her badly. How do I even begin to forgive in this scenario? I WANT to and I CAN, but not under these circumstances.

I can completely forgive if she commits to me 100% and helps me heal. That would be proof that she really stood by me in my pain.

 

Forgiveness is very hard and is not automatic. I should be able to feel that she deserves to be forgiven. Many times I don't, because of how she behaves.

 

Maybe I need to learn about unconditional forgiveness? Maybe this is what life is trying to teach me and will not stop bothering me unless I learn this lesson?

 

Nonsense. A truly remorseful wayward does whatever they can to make up for what they've done. Ultimately, they cannot turn back the clock and undo what has been done. So the rest falls to you to forgive. She cannot fully repay the debt. She does what she can and you forgive the rest.

 

If she does little to nothing and you forgive it all, that's just rugsweeping. You'll just have given her a free pass to walk on you.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Nonsense. A truly remorseful wayward does whatever they can to make up for what they've done. Ultimately, they cannot turn back the clock and undo what has been done. So the rest falls to you to forgive. She cannot fully repay the debt. She does what she can and you forgive the rest.

 

If she does little to nothing and you forgive it all, that's just rugsweeping. You'll just have given her a free pass to walk on you.

 

I understand all of this. So, its not "nothing" that she does. The question is how much is she capable of doing and how much do I need? If they don't meet then the end result is that I'm still in tremendous pain and the relationship does not heal.

 

I'm starting on my individual path of recovery, and going to be depending on myself, counseling and medication. My hope is that my needs from her will become less and her efforts and commitments towards me would become more, so that this gap reduces and we're able to meet somewhere in between for our expectations.

If her efforts and commitments don't increase, then I would keep going along my own path of individual healing. If we still ever get to a point where we meet in our expectations of each other, then the relationship has a chance to survive, otherwise, its dead and it would be time for me at that point to get out, so that we can get on with our lives. Would this be a good plan to follow?

[Naively.Sensitive]

NS, the real question in her situation - AND yours - is whether or not the man is willing to do the work to fix himself.

 

If he DOES get help, DOES to to therapy, do the homework, change his outlook, stop depending on her to give him meaning...sure...stay.

 

But if he instead just keeps telling her she HAS to stay for him, DON'T abandon him, he NEEDS her...well, he's not really doing any work, is he?

 

If you don't do the work described here and - I'm sure - by your IC as well, then there's nothing wrong with your wife leaving you, after YOUR refusal to fix yourself.

 

You see that, right?

 

Yes, I understand all this. I am doing whatever I can to fix myself, and have individual counseling scheduled and will also take medication if I have to.

[BetrayedH]

I understand all of this. So, its not "nothing" that she does. The question is how much is she capable of doing and how much do I need? If they don't meet then the end result is that I'm still in tremendous pain and the relationship does not heal.

 

I'm starting on my individual path of recovery, and going to be depending on myself, counseling and medication. My hope is that my needs from her will become less and her efforts and commitments towards me would become more, so that this gap reduces and we're able to meet somewhere in between for our expectations.

If her efforts and commitments don't increase, then I would keep going along my own path of individual healing. If we still ever get to a point where we meet in our expectations of each other, then the relationship has a chance to survive, otherwise, its dead and it would be time for me at that point to get out, so that we can get on with our lives. Would this be a good plan to follow?

 

It's up to you how much time you want to invest.

 

To me, this just sounds like continuing to throw good money after bad. It's like a gambler that has lost his life savings but can't even leave himself with $20 in his pocket. He has to spend the last $20 because he "might" make it back. In the meantime, the empirical data shows that he's just bound to lose it.

 

I think you also have to look at the potential disadvantages of this route. You only seem to be looking at the potential advantages: that it might work out. Just off the top of my head: (1) You may NEVER reestablish a rewarding relationship with her and may waste the rest of your life - how ever much time you continue to invest may simply be time you could have spent in actual recovery and finding a healthy partner (2) You run a risk of setting a horrible example of marriage for your children - what if they never see love and intimacy in their parents' marriage? (3) You may eventually reach a breaking point and seriously lose it. Don't think that'll happen? Well, it's what happened to me. And I'm a very calm, rational, and forgiving person. I found that I have a limit and unfortunately, I found out after I had already gone past it and lost my cool. (4) Your tolerance and patience may simply be enabling her to continue with the status quo. She has no motivation to change because you continue to accept things as they are.

 

All in all, I can't help wondering why you would choose to stay in a miserable situation. Stop investing in this failed investment. Accept the loss. Move in a new direction. You're not going to accomplish happiness in a new life without even beginning to set out in that direction.

[Naively.Sensitive]

It's up to you how much time you want to invest.

 

To me, this just sounds like continuing to throw good money after bad. It's like a gambler that has lost his life savings but can't even leave himself with $20 in his pocket. He has to spend the last $20 because he "might" make it back. In the meantime, the empirical data shows that he's just bound to lose it.

 

I think you also have to look at the potential disadvantages of this route. You only seem to be looking at the potential advantages: that it might work out. Just off the top of my head: (1) You may NEVER reestablish a rewarding relationship with her and may waste the rest of your life - how ever much time you continue to invest may simply be time you could have spent in actual recovery and finding a healthy partner (2) You run a risk of setting a horrible example of marriage for your children - what if they never see love and intimacy in their parents' marriage? (3) You may eventually reach a breaking point and seriously lose it. Don't think that'll happen? Well, it's what happened to me. And I'm a very calm, rational, and forgiving person. I found that I have a limit and unfortunately, I found out after I had already gone past it and lost my cool. (4) Your tolerance and patience may simply be enabling her to continue with the status quo. She has no motivation to change because you continue to accept things as they are.

 

All in all, I can't help wondering why you would choose to stay in a miserable situation. Stop investing in this failed investment. Accept the loss. Move in a new direction. You're not going to accomplish happiness in a new life without even beginning to set out in that direction.

 

Thanks for this insight. I had already considered and am aware of 1).

Regarding 2), there are 2 ways to look at it... One way is for children to see that parents can try really diligently to work out relationships and its also a sign of resilience to not divorce over the way toothpaste is emptied from a tube (as an extreme example).

The choice to separate always exists, so we can always set the example "right" if it is not working out.

 

3) and 4) is what I'm most concerned with.

 

For 3), sometimes I feel I hit my breaking point and somehow I manage to get through the day using one of several therapeutic techniques. The worst that happens is that I break down and cry. I do get some stomach pain, and I plan to get that checked. What else? If you don't mind sharing, what happened in your case when you reached your breaking point? If you could share as much as possible, it may give me some clues about where I am, personally in this regard.

 

For 4), if I see my wife's support becoming worse than it already is, then that would be a sign that she is just maintaining things to be able to continue. What else would be signs that she is using my tolerance and patience to simply maintain a status quo? In terms of behaviors and actions or inactions? Could you share from any personal experiences if that is possible.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Has your wife been skyping with you too, since she's been gone?

 

She texted me from the airport in transit, on her flights out.

She has skyped to just ask about the kids and things like that, but no video calls and no asking about me or anything related to our relationship.

[road]

She texted me from the airport in transit, on her flights out.

She has skyped to just ask about the kids and things like that, but no video calls and no asking about me or anything related to our relationship.

 

 

Yes because your past actions have taught her that it is not safe to engage you. You do not recover talking about it. You recover by doing life.

[BetrayedH]

Thanks for this insight. I had already considered and am aware of 1).

Regarding 2), there are 2 ways to look at it... One way is for children to see that parents can try really diligently to work out relationships and its also a sign of resilience to not divorce over the way toothpaste is emptied from a tube (as an extreme example).

The choice to separate always exists, so we can always set the example "right" if it is not working out.

 

3) and 4) is what I'm most concerned with.

 

For 3), sometimes I feel I hit my breaking point and somehow I manage to get through the day using one of several therapeutic techniques. The worst that happens is that I break down and cry. I do get some stomach pain, and I plan to get that checked. What else? If you don't mind sharing, what happened in your case when you reached your breaking point? If you could share as much as possible, it may give me some clues about where I am, personally in this regard.

 

For 4), if I see my wife's support becoming worse than it already is, then that would be a sign that she is just maintaining things to be able to continue. What else would be signs that she is using my tolerance and patience to simply maintain a status quo? In terms of behaviors and actions or inactions? Could you share from any personal experiences if that is possible.

 

Ok, let's review these:

 

(1) You waste your life. You kinda glossed over that disadvantage to your current plan.

 

(2) Impacts to your kids. How long is it acceptable to present a marriage without intimacy as a model for the kids to follow? Do you want them to follow your example of indefinitely staying in a lifeless marriage? How long can you present this as an example before they internalize it as a norm and it becomes an irreverseable belief?

 

(3) Risks of you snapping. You wanted to know what happened with me. Well, I reached my breaking point, burned an offensive couch in the backyard, threw my wife out the front door, and was promptly arrested. I spent 15 hours in jail, and 8 months cleaning up the charges. The record of my arrest is permanent and is fun to explain when applying for new jobs in my field.

 

(4) Continuance of the status quo. Your wife has shown a complete propensity to avoid changing for over six months. And you are giving her no motivation to change. Why would she? She's just riding this out and seems quite a bit better at that than you. What is magically going to change this scenario? If anything, your threat to divorce started to spur some change and then you backed off of it.

[Mrs. John Adams]

She is so done.....

[road]

She is so done.....

 

 

 

 

Mrs A, do you blame her?

[turnera]

She texted me from the airport in transit, on her flights out.

She has skyped to just ask about the kids and things like that, but no video calls and no asking about me or anything related to our relationship.

Exactly what I would do, if I were her.

 

You are CLEARLY not safe to engage with. Family? Obligation. You? Unsafe and proven to drag into misery.

[Mrs. John Adams]

you know.....I understand hanging on and not giving up. But there has to be hope in order to do that....there has to be some indication that the other person is at least TRYING.

 

Their relationship with their WS is not "exactly" what they want it to be....their WS does not give them "everything" they need...but at least those spouses seem to be trying to rebuild the marriage to at least some degree of "normal".

 

John and I lived 30 years in that very state of marriage. He always felt something was missing...however....we had a good life...lived as husband and wife...raised our children together....slept in the same bed....shared our lives as married folks do. He was ok with settling....having hope...that maybe someday I would have the complete remorse he was looking for.

 

So I can understand that NS doesn't want to quit. The huge difference that I see in his marriage and my own.....I tried. I missed the mark...I made mistakes...but I tried...

 

I don't see any movement from NS wife toward him...none. In fact...I see more distance every time he makes a post.

 

I understand that they have a different culture than John and I...and I am even willing to give her a pass for some of her behavior because of that. HOWEVER....

 

none of her behaviors indicate feelings of love....or caring....

nothing she does shows him that she even WANTS the relationship to continue.

 

I think she is perfectly happy...living a separate life under the same roof....while he lives in his own room totally in despair...overwhelming sadness....helplessness....and hopeless.

 

NS...I am not in your home...I cannot see the dynamics....I can only HEAR what you write.

 

Your wife is not moving toward you...she is not reaching out to you with love and kindness and compassion....instead...she is living her life as though she is single. She travels for her job...she interacts with her children....she sleeps in her bed...and talks on her phone. She engages with her friends.

 

and while she lives this life...you wallow in grief...and sadness....pain....and hopelessness.

 

I am not telling you to divorce your wife....I am telling you that there comes a time to accept things the way they are...or doing something to change it.

 

You CANNOT reconcile this marriage alone...and she is sending a very clear message to you that she is not going to help you.

 

Your decision then becomes this....I will live in this relationship and ACCEPT it the way it is....OR...I will no longer live this way and I will do something about it. Since YOU CANNOT MAKE HER RECONCILE.....because we know that is the option you want.....the only other option is to divorce.

 

SO your choice is this...live as we do...or divorce. Reconciliation is off the table...it is not a choice. EXISTING IN THE SAME HOME IS NOT RECONCILIATION.

[Naively.Sensitive]

I hope you have a busy social schedule for the weekend planned! And if you don't then start making plans to be away from home and out doing some things that bring you pleasure.

 

Schedule a massage. See a movie. Go to a park and watch the kids play. Anything to stay busy and open to doing new things.

 

Thanks. Yes, the weekend is going to be very busy. I have a spiritual class for Sunday evening, meeting a friend for coffee on Sunday, tons of stuff to finish at home, including filing for taxes,.... There is never any shortage of things to do.

 

Today was much better than most Fridays. Did not even mentally depend on my wife. Went for a walk in the evening. Made a new friend, a neighbor on the street.

 

Starting to feel how I really don't need my wife to be happy.

[MadJackBird]

Thanks. Yes, the weekend is going to be very busy. I have a spiritual class for Sunday evening, meeting a friend for coffee on Sunday, tons of stuff to finish at home, including filing for taxes,.... There is never any shortage of things to do.

 

Today was much better than most Fridays. Did not even mentally depend on my wife. Went for a walk in the evening. Made a new friend, a neighbor on the street.

 

Starting to feel how I really don't need my wife to be happy.

 

Good job. Those things are important to healing. I did the same. After my wife moved out I started walking with the kids to school. I noticed other Dad's also walking to and from school, including a single dad. They are some of my closest friends to this day. Never would have met them if I didn't move forward with my life separate from my former wife.

 

Are you progressing towards separation. You won't truly heal if she's still living in the same house.

 

Good Luck

[Naively.Sensitive]

Good job. Those things are important to healing. I did the same. After my wife moved out I started walking with the kids to school. I noticed other Dad's also walking to and from school, including a single dad. They are some of my closest friends to this day. Never would have met them if I didn't move forward with my life separate from my former wife.

 

Are you progressing towards separation. You won't truly heal if she's still living in the same house.

 

Good Luck

 

Things have not been working, even after 4 weeks of marriage counseling. She knows what I need to heal, but is not giving it to me. I am not depending on her anymore, so essentially, there is nothing left in the relationship, because if my needs are not being met, there is no reason for me to stay.

 

Its heading towards a separation as far as I'm concerned. I need to find a suitable and inexpensive lawyer and also work on arriving at a mutual consenses on the terms of the divorce with her. She is unwilling to even discuss divorce with me. I may have no choice except to just file and then she will have to respond. At that point, if she is willing to talk about mutual terms rather than waste our money that we earned in sweat and blood, in lawyers, it would benefit the entire family.

[Chi townD]

You need to start doing or continue to do the 180. That will help you become strong and will help you to disengage from the marriage.

[soleilesquire]

You need to start doing or continue to do the 180. That will help you become strong and will help you to disengage from the marriage.

 

I agree. Not only is weakness giving her permission to string this along, weakness is also HIGHLY unattractive to most women.

[Naively.Sensitive]

I agree. Not only is weakness giving her permission to string this along, weakness is also HIGHLY unattractive to most women.

 

I struggle everyday, but now, I make sure I don't show her my struggles. I talk to myself to feel better, knowing that there are much better women out there than she is, and that I deserve better.

I have started to take care of myself and my own needs, and if she does not meet them, then I will allow someone else to meet my needs.

I have started to ask myself, what do I want from the relationship? And if she does not give it to me, then I don't engage with her.