Dealing with wife's affair.

[oldshirt]

Harsh truth and reality here - the relationship between a husband and wife is not unconditional love.

 

 

The marital contract is VERY conditional.

 

 

The love between a husband and wife is also conditional.

 

 

One of those fundamental conditions is not cheating with other people.

 

 

When that condition is broken, the marital contract may be nullified without prejudice and the love that was once there often fades away like a fart in the wind.

 

 

That is on the person that cheated. That is the risk they took when they took off their clothes and got into bed with the other party.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Harsh truth and reality here - the relationship between a husband and wife is not unconditional love.

 

 

The marital contract is VERY conditional.

 

 

The love between a husband and wife is also conditional.

 

 

One of those fundamental conditions is not cheating with other people.

 

 

When that condition is broken, the marital contract may be nullified without prejudice and the love that was once there often fades away like a fart in the wind.

 

 

That is on the person that cheated. That is the risk they took when they took off their clothes and got into bed with the other party.

 

Everything you mentioned is spot on and true.

 

Now, the question is: Can this situation be turned around and recovered from? My love for my wife has certainly faded away. I suspect my wife's love for me has also faded away, even before the affair, (because that is why the affair happened). I think that any wife who loved her husband enough would never choose to have an affair.

 

So, now, if there is no love in either direction, is it easier to just separate and move on? Are we trying to beat a dead horse by trying to revive love?

[Mrs. John Adams]

Sometimes...the best answer is to divorce. As time passes....if there is still an attraction...if there is still a spark...you might date and revitalize the relationship. Some marriages after infidelity need closure.

 

Your wife...can tell you everything you want to hear...but ACTIONS speak volumes. Her actions say she does not love you...she does not desire you...she is not putting your needs first...she is not remorseful....she is not repentant...she is not sorry.

 

Many people here have told you this over and over again...and you still are not listening.

 

This situation is sad...i am sorry you have to endure it....but you are helping her to continue to use you...

 

The reality is....she is telling you she does not love you anymore. She should be willing to do whatever is necessary to help to heal you...not to continue rubbing your nose in it.

 

God knows....I am an advocate for reconciliation....but there comes a time...to say enough is enough.

 

I don't walk in your shoes...only you know when the time is right to pull the plug.....but surely you must know...after starting all of these threads...and saying the same thing over and over....that this situation is not going to improve until you make the decision to stop allowing her to control you and use you.

[merrmeade]

Have you found a good therapist for IC yet? If not, have you been seriously looking?

 

Otherwise, I think you're using LS as your therapist and it is NOT the same and will not help you in the same way. LS advice goes to your head, maybe your heart at times - maybe. I used to think about this while in therapy and posting on LS. LS was good for what I should DO and for giving me support and understanding about other parties in my situation. But it did NOT give me the visceral understanding particular to me and my history, world view and personal needs. It did not go beneath the surface of what I was in control and cognizant of.

 

I believe that therapy is really you, treating yourself. It's you, revealing yourself to someone who knows how to direct your life back so that you see and react to it based on who you have been, want to be and really are. A good therapist doesn't mess with your world view but respects it and helps you see what areas of your life are in conflict with it.

 

This is not about trying to fix your marriage. It's about what you can live with and need to find deep personal happiness long-term. I think that all these threads you are starting are valid, deep, personal questions that are torturing you. But I also think that you will only get a superficial answer here.

[BettyDraper]

Thank you so much for being able to understand my beliefs and feelings.

I think you are right in the sense that my wife really does not seem to have realized what she has done. It has completely destroyed me.

There is a possibility that now, even if she does change her attitude, it may be too late, because she may have already done too much damage by even not being able to be there for me in my greatest time of need.

Only time will tell what will happen.

 

My hope is that I don't be permanently damaged and broken for the rest of my life. Is that possible?

Assuming that at some point she is ready to help me in whatever way I need to heal, is it more likely for me to stay more damaged by leaving the relationship or by staying in it?

 

In your case, were you the wayward or betrayed spouse? By staying in the relationship and constantly improving it (with efforts from the wayward as well as betrayed spouse), does the destroyed betrayed spouse eventually heal to almost normalcy?

 

I said that my first two years of marriage were hard; nothing about infidelity! My husband and I both think cheating is disgusting and unacceptable. If either of us cheated, we wouldn't be married anymore.

 

With respect to your situation, it seems like if your wife was ashamed of her actions and took ownership of them it would go a long way in helping you heal. I don't believe that anyone has no choice but to be permanently broken. Traumatic events will leave scars but the sufferer doesn't need to be broken forever.

[Naively.Sensitive]

People are different in the way they express themselves. That is understandable. Also, a WW and BH may be at different points in the healing process and even the timeframes for healing may be different. That is also understandable.

 

My fundamental question is this:

 

What is the best way to discuss one's true feelings (disregarding the emotional biases that may fog one's true feelings) or to "extract" them if the wife who cheated is not explicitly sharing her feelings?

 

Is it stupid to ask her, "What are you thinking?" or "How do you feel about me?", or "Do you really love me?", or "How much do you really love me?"

 

Also, is it reasonable to expect her to be honest with me in terms of how she feels about me or the relationship? Or is more reasonable to expect that she will manipulate what she tells me about her feelings if she does not really have any loving feelings towards me?

 

What I really want to know is this: What is the best way to know her true feelings?

[Naively.Sensitive]

Man and woman get married.

There obviously was passion because I have lived with my wife for 15 years and we DID start out with a lot of passion.

Then, live did get in the way, we had kids, settled down and life did become a little routine.

 

After 15 years, wife had an affair.

 

I am heartbroken, and devastated. Now, if I follow 180 for a while and just focus on myself, I feel that we may drift even further apart.

 

The question is: If I'm able to separate my pain and suffering from her conscious knowledge and able to manage it independently of her, what can I do to attract my wife (emotionally and sexually) back to me?

Is it the same as if I were trying to woo a new woman? Or do the dynamics become different for wooing back a wife who cheated?

 

I do recognize that you cannot "make" someone attracted to you, but if there are things I could do to bring out any attraction that may be buried in her already, what would those things be?

e.g. try to be strong for myself during these tough times? take charge and tell her what we must both do to reignite our passion? subtly attract her back into the bedroom by putting candles around our bathing tub?

 

I'm trying to find a resource on learning what I can do as a betrayed husband to reignite any remaining or buried intimacy.

[Mrs. John Adams]

How can you drift further apart than you are now? What can happen? You are at Rock bottom my friend. You have a dysfunctional relationship with a wife who clearly no longer cares about you... Because if she cared she would be doing everything you need her to do... And not only is she not ... She is living a separate life in your own home.

 

This is the reality.... There is no relationship to destroy... She already did.

You must decide how long you can endure this existence.

[BettyDraper]

Man and woman get married.

There obviously was passion because I have lived with my wife for 15 years and we DID start out with a lot of passion.

Then, live did get in the way, we had kids, settled down and life did become a little routine.

 

After 15 years, wife had an affair.

 

I am heartbroken, and devastated. Now, if I follow 180 for a while and just focus on myself, I feel that we may drift even further apart.

 

The question is: If I'm able to separate my pain and suffering from her conscious knowledge and able to manage it independently of her, what can I do to attract my wife (emotionally and sexually) back to me?

Is it the same as if I were trying to woo a new woman? Or do the dynamics become different for wooing back a wife who cheated?

 

I do recognize that you cannot "make" someone attracted to you, but if there are things I could do to bring out any attraction that may be buried in her already, what would those things be?

e.g. try to be strong for myself during these tough times? take charge and tell her what we must both do to reignite our passion? subtly attract her back into the bedroom by putting candles around our bathing tub?

 

I'm trying to find a resource on learning what I can do as a betrayed husband to reignite any remaining or buried intimacy.

 

The decrease in passion after years of marriage and children is to be expected and still no excuse for an affair.

 

With all due respect, there is no reason for you to focus on reigniting passion. Your wife is the one who cheated so she should be bending over backwards to fix things. If you turn up the romance and courting, your wife could lose even more respect for you because you are rewarding her reprehensible behavior.

 

I respect that you want to improve your marriage but I also think that you are taking far too much responsibility for what has happened. It looks like your wife's manipulation has worked. I believe that you realize this because of your screen name.

[cranium]

I have asked her on some occasions that if I was the one who had the affair, would she really be able to forgive me? She responded by saying that should would forgive me if the circumstances of the affair were the same.

 

And if the circumstances of the affair were the same (magic woman seduces you), would you go out of your way to make sure you were addressing what she needed to heal? Something tells me you would without being asked, because you would inherently know. She knows, but chooses not to act.

Live for you.

[Naively.Sensitive]

And if the circumstances of the affair were the same (magic woman seduces you), would you go out of your way to make sure you were addressing what she needed to heal? Something tells me you would without being asked, because you would inherently know. She knows, but chooses not to act.

Live for you.

 

Yes, I have asked myself that question time and time again, and if I was the person who cheated, I would definitely go out of my way to make sure I was addressing what she needed to heal. I would do what she asked me to do for her healing, not just try to tip-toe back into a "normal" relationship, because I would not consider this situation to be "normal" to deal with.

[ShatteredLady]

Please, PLEASE don't get another woman involved in this! I know that you are hurting & looking for anything to stop the pain AND fix your marriage. Using a woman (& it would be using) would make you the bad guy in so many ways.

 

I was hoping the threads would be combined. I've written to you on others & told my story. I don't want to repeat things. I'm a BS with similar...together for LONG time before kids....life.

[HereNorThere]

It's obvious that you want to ignore everyone's advice and try to get your wife back. It's understandable, but that still doesn't mean it's the right thing.

 

You keep asking how can you be more attractive to her? How can you tell what she's thinking, etc?

 

Here's the best dating advice I can give you - "To get a girl, you have to be willing to lose a girl." The person who cares the least about an outcome of the relationship holds the most power. It may seem counter-intuitive, but you win her back the same way you leave her, by showing strength and taking away her power. She's obviously attracted to the alpha type, powerful man (hence banging her boss) and you are the exact opposite of that in her eyes. From this point forward, never, ever, ever let her see you sweat. She needs to wonder what YOU are thinking, not the other way around. Even if you have to fake it, you need to become cold and indifferent towards her. Single women want a challenge and you are not a challenge.

 

Get her served with divorce papers, sign the lease on a new apartment, sign yourself up for therapy, gym, etc. Maybe even sign yourself for a dating site. Then and only then will you truly know how she feels. She's never had a chance to miss you. She's never truly been scared of being on her own. Most importantly, she's never felt the level of jealousy that she needs to feel to know what she's lost.

 

As far as what she's thinking, just look at her actions. I know exactly what she's thinking - "F that chump."

 

And I'm still not backing down from my assumption that she's in another relationship. Putting you in another room proves to her boyfriend that you guys are just roommates now. I'm sure he just felt odd sleeping with her in your room, so this was a compromise to make him feel better about it.

 

Are you in a position to hire a private investigator?

Edited December 31, 2015 by HereNorThere

[ShatteredLady]

Thinking about your problems....

 

I really want to give you advise but I'm frozen on one point. Your wife says that the pre-affair issue was your control. That's like saying "I wanted you to be LESS alpha. More passive. Give me more freedom with support".

 

I don't like very alpha men. I like gentle, sensitive, conversationalists.

 

I do remember being young & having a boyfriend I split with who was VERY upset & 'stalked me', crying & begging. I HATED that! But it was a very different situation.

 

I know on the forums the most common advise is 'be tough', 'be foreceful', demand, throw her out etc. (all the alpha stuff)

 

See where I worry about what advise to give?

 

If I say 'Take control! File for divorce!' Am I just telling you to be controlling?...& that was her initial complaint!!!

 

Can you talk about the controlling thing more?

 

My H blamed my sickness & health!!! I don't know how valid the reasons WS give are..... Ugh!!

[Naively.Sensitive]

Have you found a good therapist for IC yet? If not, have you been seriously looking?

 

Otherwise, I think you're using LS as your therapist and it is NOT the same and will not help you in the same way. LS advice goes to your head, maybe your heart at times - maybe. I used to think about this while in therapy and posting on LS. LS was good for what I should DO and for giving me support and understanding about other parties in my situation. But it did NOT give me the visceral understanding particular to me and my history, world view and personal needs. It did not go beneath the surface of what I was in control and cognizant of.

 

I believe that therapy is really you, treating yourself. It's you, revealing yourself to someone who knows how to direct your life back so that you see and react to it based on who you have been, want to be and really are. A good therapist doesn't mess with your world view but respects it and helps you see what areas of your life are in conflict with it.

 

This is not about trying to fix your marriage. It's about what you can live with and need to find deep personal happiness long-term. I think that all these threads you are starting are valid, deep, personal questions that are torturing you. But I also think that you will only get a superficial answer here.

 

Yes, thanks very much for that insight. I do recognize that my healing is about me and about delving very deep inside of myself and LS cannot serve that purpose. That is my own journey within myself, but even that journey takes a long time. Finding oneself is not easy, especially in a traumatic situation like this in which my sense of identity and reality have been destroyed.

 

At the same time, I have been to individual counseling sessions too for this even and even in the past, 6 years ago. What I found out from those sessions is this:

 

1) All counselors I have worked with so far were not able to help me. This is because they were not able to decipher my personal identity for me. All they landed up doing was to offer suggestions on "dealing with the symptoms" of the problem I was going through, NOT offering a root cause analysis that stemmed from my own psychological and physiological identity. I tried many therapists, even for a past problem I had involving depression and just came out of the whole process feeling very disappointed with bills to pay to the IC, but nothing to show for in terms of discovering a deep identity of myself and what I needed to do to live my life in alignment with my spiritual and human identity. The only thing that landed up helping me was the medication: the antidepressants, but even those just masked the symptoms of my depression and came with their own set of side effects. In the counseling sessions, there was nothing more happening than the counselor listening to me, my thoughts and emotions, my profuse crying and making notes. There was not much feedback other than suggestions of "trying" things that I already was.

 

2) The counselors were more interested in billing me than in helping me unearth my root identity and beliefs and behaviors that were in conflict with my identity.

 

3) For a person like myself, deeply analytical and intellectual, who honestly questions everything (but is still willing to try everything), I have been down those paths of individual counseling before and its possible that individual counseling does not work for everybody. That is not to say that I won't try a new counselor (I plan to choose a new counselor starting next week)

 

In many ways, I suffer from wanting the impossible.... And maybe thats why life threw this event in my life to remind me that I cannot have certain things in life just because I expect and want them. Even if it was the most basic thing I wanted (or needed) in my life (fidelity), I CANNOT guarantee myself even my most basic needs, because that is just the nature of life. People need food to survive, yet so many people in the world die everyday because they don't have food. This is the level of deep rooted realization that I need to develop and it has not come from Individual Counseling for me. I do however see glimpses of such realizations unfolding for me by talking to the right people, reading the right books and materials in life and through my personal experiences (including pain and suffering).

 

That is why I seek out people on forums and in real life, to be able to unearth such deep realizations from other people's journeys.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Thinking about your problems....

 

I really want to give you advise but I'm frozen on one point. Your wife says that the pre-affair issue was your control. That's like saying "I wanted you to be LESS alpha. More passive. Give me more freedom with support".

 

I don't like very alpha men. I like gentle, sensitive, conversationalists.

 

I do remember being young & having a boyfriend I split with who was VERY upset & 'stalked me', crying & begging. I HATED that! But it was a very different situation.

 

I know on the forums the most common advise is 'be tough', 'be foreceful', demand, throw her out etc. (all the alpha stuff)

 

See where I worry about what advise to give?

 

If I say 'Take control! File for divorce!' Am I just telling you to be controlling?...& that was her initial complaint!!!

 

Can you talk about the controlling thing more?

 

My H blamed my sickness & health!!! I don't know how valid the reasons WS give are..... Ugh!!

 

You asked a FANTASTICALLY RELEVANT question. I think you identified the central problem that we may be facing. I will reply to this in detail, so there is a better understanding of this. It has to do with the underlying psychology of me and my wife and it maybe relevant to the psychology of male vs. female as well. I will reply to this in detail (heading out to run some errands, which should also help me literally "dump" my problems into the trashcan for a while.... God knows I wish I could just get selective amnesia!)

[BettyDraper]

It's obvious that you want to ignore everyone's advice and try to get your wife back. It's understandable, but that still doesn't mean it's the right thing.

 

You keep asking how can you be more attractive to her? How can you tell what she's thinking, etc?

 

Here's the best dating advice I can give you - "To get a girl, you have to be willing to lose a girl." The person who cares the least about an outcome of the relationship holds the most power. It may seem counter-intuitive, but you win her back the same way you leave her, by showing strength and taking away her power. She's obviously attracted to the alpha type, powerful man (hence banging her boss) and you are the exact opposite of that in her eyes. From this point forward, never, ever, ever let her see you sweat. She needs to wonder what YOU are thinking, not the other way around. Even if you have to fake it, you need to become cold and indifferent towards her. Single women want a challenge and you are not a challenge.

 

Get her served with divorce papers, sign the lease on a new apartment, sign yourself up for therapy, gym, etc. Maybe even sign yourself for a dating site. Then and only then will you truly know how she feels. She's never had a chance to miss you. She's never truly been scared of being on her own. Most importantly, she's never felt the level of jealousy that she needs to feel to know what she's lost.

 

As far as what she's thinking, just look at her actions. I know exactly what she's thinking - "F that chump."

 

And I'm still not backing down from my assumption that she's in another relationship. Putting you in another room proves to her boyfriend that you guys are just roommates now. I'm sure he just felt odd sleeping with her in your room, so this was a compromise to make him feel better about it.

 

Are you in a position to hire a private investigator?

 

I agree with all of this. Women can stand to take back their power when a man isn't showing interest by doing the same thing. When I was single, I learned that if a man didn't seem to care about where our relationship was going, the best thing to do was dump him and focus on myself as well as seeing other men. The guys who cared about me came running after I did that.

 

I know the OP doesn't want a divorce but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. His wife is holding all the cards now and if she thinks that she can have an affair with no consequences, being served with divorce papers would knock her on her ass.

[HereNorThere]

I just want be clear on one thing I said - serve her with divorce papers. In most cases you can back at out any moment until the last papers are signed. The serving of the papers is mostly symbolic, but it could provide a wake up call for someone completely lost in the fog.

 

It's the one thing that could change her view of him.

 

Still, I can't help but feel poorly about giving anyone advice on how to win back an abusive relationship. It's definitely not the right thing to do. OP has spoken about betraying his values, but nothing betrays his own values as much enabling his abuser.

[ShatteredLady]

I'm glad you took it that way, I truly am!!

 

I realized that I just keep asking you to answer questions....then I think...then I ask more without giving much!! I'm in a similar boat in so many ways.

 

Something I'm starting to embrace is...I've chosen to reconcile. I'm still very angry & totally betrayed. I feel like my reality has been stolen from me.

 

I've said before...it's like the pope dying & being met at the 'gates' by Buddha saying "Wow dude you got it so wrong!!".

 

I CAN'T move on expecting everything from my H. That's the terrible thing! We get damaged, crippled & at the worst time in our lives we too need to help fix things. It's not fair. It's not right but it's the fact.

 

Step 1. Choose what you're trying for.

 

I'm trying for reconciliation. Might not happen. I have the POWER to change my mind whenever I want. If I want to know deep inside that I did my very best for my family, my kids & myself I need to swallow my pain sometimes & analyze things from my H's point of view. WE need to get through this. It's about US when reconciliation is chosen.

 

It sucks!!!

[HereNorThere]

Thinking about your problems....

 

I really want to give you advise but I'm frozen on one point. Your wife says that the pre-affair issue was your control. That's like saying "I wanted you to be LESS alpha. More passive. Give me more freedom with support".

 

I don't like very alpha men. I like gentle, sensitive, conversationalists.

 

I do remember being young & having a boyfriend I split with who was VERY upset & 'stalked me', crying & begging. I HATED that! But it was a very different situation.

 

I know on the forums the most common advise is 'be tough', 'be foreceful', demand, throw her out etc. (all the alpha stuff)

 

See where I worry about what advise to give?

 

If I say 'Take control! File for divorce!' Am I just telling you to be controlling?...& that was her initial complaint!!!

 

Can you talk about the controlling thing more?

 

My H blamed my sickness & health!!! I don't know how valid the reasons WS give are..... Ugh!!

 

I've seen the exact same happen in so many relationships. One person starts picking apart the other, giving ultimatums, making them question everything they do and even starts setting up hoops to jump through. The other partner will try to comply with said hoops for a while, but eventually they figure out that the game is rigged. The bar just keeps getting set higher and higher because they aren't looking for their partner to change as much as they are looking for an excuse to justify treating the other one poorly. It's a sick, twisted game that I've seen play out time and time again until the relationship ends.

[ShatteredLady]

Before I forget..... Anxiety medications have worked better me than antidepressants. I don't have a depressed chemical imbalance! I have PTSD type symptoms with tons of anxiety.....my whole life has changed! My REALITY has been stolen!

 

Anxiety meds, 24hr slow release & instant release for 'emergencies', have brought less side effects & emotional confusion, lack of focus etc.

[bigman1]

Reading all that you have written, it strikes me that you seem intent on reasons, rationalizations, explanations, justifications, and a whole lot of other multi syllable words.

 

Here is something new to try... ACTION. Just go a different direction. You don't have to hate her, find her ugly, figure out what she can do, what you can do or anything. Just go in the opposite direction.

 

Go see a lawyer, pay the fee, file, serve, wait for the blow up, continue the course. Put your head down, ear plugs in and keep going. You'd be amazed at what might happen. Actually, at what will happen.

[ShatteredLady]

Hey BigMan.

 

If you consider that they've been reconciling. She was doing all the 'right stuff' for 3 months. She's obviously VERY proud or she wouldn't of blown-up & moved into the spare room & stopped trying when he told other people (family & friends). Consider that she did convince herself that they had marital problems... CONTROLLING...(I know they all have excuses but it's based on something)...

 

Would you give the same advise?

 

Please, I'm truly interested, for myself also. Please don't say 'stuff her' she doesn't deserve anything etc. because that doesn't help if you want to keep your family together.

 

I'm a bs so I KNOW!

 

As a woman, as ME, I wouldn't react well to divorce papers....if you want to keep me.

 

....although it's against my instincts I realize that R takes 2. It SHOULD be all on the WS because THEY committed the crime but doesn't "SHOULD" just get you divorced & resenting each other?

[thecharade]

Marriage is conditional love. As it should be. Life changes, events change, and people change. Infidelity is not--by a long shot--the only muderer of marital love.

 

You cannot ever, EVER make someone love you or want you. Naively Sensitive, that seems to be what you want to know. "How do I make her want me again?" It seems your criticism of therapy is the same as your criticism of Love Shack. "Nobody wants to help me with what I can here for."

 

We are, but you cannot see it. You cannot hear us all saying that . . .

 

There. Is. Nothing. You. Can. Do. To. Make. Her. Want. You. Again. Regardless. Of. Marital. Contract.

 

Nothing.

 

Emotions are not controlled by contracts of any type.

 

That is why you must focus on only you.

You literally have no, zero, nada, none other choice.

 

I am sorry.

Peace.

 

It will get better once you stop believing that you have any control over her, much better.

[thecharade]

You know what you really need to do?

 

Get mad!

Get really angry that your wife, your love did this to you! Protect yourself! Be upset! Be furious! If you are not furious at her mistreatment of you, why should she feel bad? You are teaching her that what she has done to you is ok. Because you want her. And you are not angry. And you are not done with her. Forget words--they do not matter. You are telling her that it is ok.

 

Be outraged and disgusted!

 

It is you that does not need her.