Dealing with wife's affair.

[turnera]

I'm trying to think back to determine if I have always had this codependency from the beginning? In my 15 years of marriage.

Can a person be codependent on a "person" or on a certain "fantasy" of a relationship?

 

The reason I ask is this.... If its codependency on a person, then one can seek another close relationship, but if its codependency on a relationship itself, then seeking another relationship is just going to foster the problem even more.

Codependency is something inside YOU that makes you feel like you don't exist, or you're worthless, or you can't cope...unless someone ELSE is saying you do, you are, or you can.

 

It's something broken inside you. And it's where all your anxiety is coming from. So, no, you can't just get a new wife and have it all be ok. All gone. Wherever you go, there you are.

 

Here's a mentally healthy, confident, loving, laid-back man learning his wife cheated on him: "You're kidding, right? Why on earth would you cheat on me?! You think you can do better? Well, here, here's the door. Go try. I'll send you the divorce papers."

 

And within minutes, usually, that c*cky, overconfident, affair-foggy woman is on her knees begging him to give her another chance. Because she SEES that he knows his worth, and he knows she'll never get a better husband than him, so he frankly can't be bothered to waste his time on a woman who doesn't see that; he'll just go out and get a new and improved wife who WILL be faithful.

[Mrs. John Adams]

If John had acted like you describe tunera...I would have walked out the door and never looked back.

 

You know tough love is sometimes the right thing to do...but not in every case.

 

All waywards don't behave alike...or think alike...or act alike.

 

Some waywards need the 180 and others don't. I was a devasted wayward....frightened....and I needed to know my husband cared. If his response to my confession had been as you describe....it would have driven me away...exactly the opposite of the response you describe.

 

no one knows this wife the way her husband does....we are not present in this home to see or feel the dynamics of this couple.

 

My guess is she is most likely as co dependent on him as he is on her. Yes...she cheated...lies she was vile...yes she is not doing her part.....

 

But she may be in the state of mind that if he pushes too hard...she runs.

 

There are those who may say ...good...let her go...but obviously he doesn't want her to.

[bigman1]

I think that co-dependence, fear of failure, fear of the unknown, and fear of rejection are all possibilities. Co-dependence is better diagnosed by a professional.

 

In addition, going from being married to infidelity to potentially not being married is a whirlwind of a ride. Its kind of hard to navigate that particular journey, so no shame there. Just because everyone else screams "jump" does not make it easier for you to actually jump.

 

Still, there comes a time that the question must be faced, "do you continue with this marriage"? At that point, you are going to have to face that unpleasant decision. That time came long ago for you. To strangers on a forum only hearing one side of the story, the answer is "yes, time to pull the plug". To those same strangers, you seem to be the impediment to following that course of action.

 

You are starting to enter into what I am going to call "the reasoning spiral of inaction." What I mean by that is that you have asked some questions in your last posts that really don't get you anywhere. Each answer creates another question, but none of those questions or answers require that you do anything relative to the real question at hand. Don't get sucked down into that spiral. You can spend years down there.

 

leaving does not ease the pain, but it is a clear path to healing. See, once you move in that direction you then have to force yourself to detach. That is the strangest thing-detaching, that is. Its like learning to walk after having been in wheelchair for so long. Still, detaching has to start now.

 

See, once you start detaching you can see more clearly. Maybe you want to give it another go, and I don't know why you should, but maybe you would but you would also not be willing to accept certain behaviors and would be able to walk away, if needed. On the other hand, once you detach, you realize that you should have ended this long ago. Right now, you are afraid to start detaching yourself.

 

You have to force yourself to start detaching. Stop looking for her positives. Stop looking for hope. Stop reminiscing about the past. There are ways to do it that will work for you, but none will work if you don't start doing it. Detach. Detach. Detach.

[Naively.Sensitive]

I think that co-dependence, fear of failure, fear of the unknown, and fear of rejection are all possibilities. Co-dependence is better diagnosed by a professional.

 

In addition, going from being married to infidelity to potentially not being married is a whirlwind of a ride. Its kind of hard to navigate that particular journey, so no shame there. Just because everyone else screams "jump" does not make it easier for you to actually jump.

 

Still, there comes a time that the question must be faced, "do you continue with this marriage"? At that point, you are going to have to face that unpleasant decision. That time came long ago for you. To strangers on a forum only hearing one side of the story, the answer is "yes, time to pull the plug". To those same strangers, you seem to be the impediment to following that course of action.

 

You are starting to enter into what I am going to call "the reasoning spiral of inaction." What I mean by that is that you have asked some questions in your last posts that really don't get you anywhere. Each answer creates another question, but none of those questions or answers require that you do anything relative to the real question at hand. Don't get sucked down into that spiral. You can spend years down there.

 

leaving does not ease the pain, but it is a clear path to healing. See, once you move in that direction you then have to force yourself to detach. That is the strangest thing-detaching, that is. Its like learning to walk after having been in wheelchair for so long. Still, detaching has to start now.

 

See, once you start detaching you can see more clearly. Maybe you want to give it another go, and I don't know why you should, but maybe you would but you would also not be willing to accept certain behaviors and would be able to walk away, if needed. On the other hand, once you detach, you realize that you should have ended this long ago. Right now, you are afraid to start detaching yourself.

 

You have to force yourself to start detaching. Stop looking for her positives. Stop looking for hope. Stop reminiscing about the past. There are ways to do it that will work for you, but none will work if you don't start doing it. Detach. Detach. Detach.

 

Again, this is an extremely useful post. The key word being "detach".

Even through some spiritual teachings (Buddhism for example), I have learnt that detachment is very good to be aligned with one's soul.

 

I want to get to a point to be able to see clearly, and maybe that is only possible if I completely detach, as is suggested in this post.

[Naively.Sensitive]

If John had acted like you describe tunera...I would have walked out the door and never looked back.

 

You know tough love is sometimes the right thing to do...but not in every case.

 

All waywards don't behave alike...or think alike...or act alike.

 

Some waywards need the 180 and others don't. I was a devasted wayward....frightened....and I needed to know my husband cared. If his response to my confession had been as you describe....it would have driven me away...exactly the opposite of the response you describe.

 

no one knows this wife the way her husband does....we are not present in this home to see or feel the dynamics of this couple.

 

My guess is she is most likely as co dependent on him as he is on her. Yes...she cheated...lies she was vile...yes she is not doing her part.....

 

But she may be in the state of mind that if he pushes too hard...she runs.

 

There are those who may say ...good...let her go...but obviously he doesn't want her to.

 

My wife is exactly as you have described yourself. I'm sure she is codependent on me too, probably as much as I am on her.

I have seen recent situations in which if it seemed like I was pushing too hard, she was starting to run, even pleading with me by telling me, "If you're really so angry and in so much pain, why don't you just end it? Do you really think it will work? (With a facial expression that indicated that she was almost completely out of hope).

 

On the same token, earlier in the process, during the first 3 months after her confession, when I used to comfort her about the future by telling her, "Don't worry, we will get through this together.", she used to come towards me, very lovingly.

 

She even confessed to me at many times that if she saw me too stern, it chased her away, but if she saw me loving, it drew her towards me.

 

Would this be a description of your personality too Mrs. John Adams?

If so, can you tell me more about your personality type?

 

I also confessed to her, telling her that I mostly still felt anger and pain, and could not "pretend" to be loving towards her when I did experience those strong emotions (You CANNOT feel anger/pain and love at the same time).

 

This is precisely where we seem to be stuck in a major way.

[Mrs. John Adams]

NS...I am an extrovert....but i am extremely sensitive...and i am non confrontational. I can snap back....but i try to avoid fights.

 

When he would go into deep depression....I would say to him....do you want me to leave? I did not want him to hurt...but i did not know how to help him.

 

While most people might think that i am the stronger of the two of us...in reality...i am the weaker.

 

The problem i see with your wife...is that she should WANT to be transparent to you....and it bothers me that she doesn't. If she would just do that one thing.....i would have more hope for you...because i do truly believe you want this reconciliation. I wish she wanted it as bad as you do.

 

How did your session go today?

[Ladyjane14]

If John had acted like you describe tunera...I would have walked out the door and never looked back.

 

You know tough love is sometimes the right thing to do...but not in every case.

 

All waywards don't behave alike...or think alike...or act alike.

 

Some waywards need the 180 and others don't. I was a devasted wayward....frightened....and I needed to know my husband cared. If his response to my confession had been as you describe....it would have driven me away...exactly the opposite of the response you describe.

 

no one knows this wife the way her husband does....we are not present in this home to see or feel the dynamics of this couple.

 

My guess is she is most likely as co dependent on him as he is on her. Yes...she cheated...lies she was vile...yes she is not doing her part.....

 

But she may be in the state of mind that if he pushes too hard...she runs.

 

There are those who may say ...good...let her go...but obviously he doesn't want her to.

 

Agreed. I'd have lost my marriage too if I'd have pulled the 180. I don't think too many people realize how scared a wayward is once they've snapped out of the fantasy and realized how very much they still want their spouse.

 

Certainly, you've got to draw a line in the sand.. be willing to end the marriage if the cheater has not made that conversion back to reality. But after that, a gentle hand can work miracles.

[aliveagain]

A hard line works when they refuse to be transparent or commit to the marriage, if they want the marriage then there can be no secrets. By not being transparent she is choosing the affair/other man over your needs(which would be the same needs required by every betrayed spouse on the planet). Wanting to be away from you and refusing transparency is a symptom of something much bigger. Could it be she's feeding you crumbs while she gets her own ducks in order?

 

This is why we recommend you talk to a lawyer so your protected and so are the rights to your children. You can't trust what she tells you because her actions don't match. She broadsided you once, shame on you if she does it again because your allowing it to happen.

[thecharade]

Wait, 180 is because you have to, because you are not being heard, because your needs are being ignored. It's not the only choice, it's the LAST choice. NS, you are not being heard and your needs are being ignored. I disagree that a 180 ever sends a spouse running because a 180 is not cruel; it is a place of power and commitment to one's self. While doing the 180 and getting healthy, a spouse that runs from you is . . . not healthy themselves. The 180 is not an aggressive stance, it is an assertive stance: power over one's self, not over another.

 

The 180 should not drive your spouse away, NS. Unless she was already leaving. The 180 should give her either the chance to clear her head or the chance to want you back.

 

How did counseling go?

[Naively.Sensitive]

Wait, 180 is because you have to, because you are not being heard, because your needs are being ignored. It's not the only choice, it's the LAST choice. NS, you are not being heard and your needs are being ignored. I disagree that a 180 ever sends a spouse running because a 180 is not cruel; it is a place of power and commitment to one's self. While doing the 180 and getting healthy, a spouse that runs from you is . . . not healthy themselves. The 180 is not an aggressive stance, it is an assertive stance: power over one's self, not over another.

 

The 180 should not drive your spouse away, NS. Unless she was already leaving. The 180 should give her either the chance to clear her head or the chance to want you back.

 

How did counseling go?

 

Thanks for that perspective about the 180. I am going to read the 180 in more detail and try to determine which aspects of it (in my relationship with my wife) may be likely to cause her to run away.

 

I will post my experience with the marriage counselor later today...

 

I am very very grateful for this forum and for all the different people here, the perspectives, advice and support I am getting. It takes time and effort to post here and take an interest in someone else's life and I acknowledge that completely.

[OneLov]

Don't Pet the Snakes ~ Infidelity Help Group

[troubadour]

Here's a mentally healthy, confident, loving, laid-back man learning his wife cheated on him: "You're kidding, right? Why on earth would you cheat on me?! You think you can do better? Well, here, here's the door. Go try. I'll send you the divorce papers."

 

And within minutes, usually, that c*cky, overconfident, affair-foggy woman is on her knees begging him to give her another chance. Because she SEES that he knows his worth, and he knows she'll never get a better husband than him, so he frankly can't be bothered to waste his time on a woman who doesn't see that; he'll just go out and get a new and improved wife who WILL be faithful.

 

 

Turnera, do you actually believe what you posted above?

[turnera]

Turnera, do you actually believe what you posted above?

 

I do.

 

And hundreds, if not thousands, of threads just like this one over the past 20 years has proved it true.

 

Not to such an extreme or absolute, maybe, but the point is still valid.

 

Women SEEK strong men. Goes back to caveman days. NOT-strong men end up dead. So women used the only thing they could - looks and attraction. Which is ALSO ingrained in us. Why do you think the first thing men look for is a sexy, gorgeous, hot-bodied woman? (it's how women caught men, and survived) And why do you think the first thing women look for is strong, confident men? (it's how women survived, being protected by said strong men)

[katielee]

"Here's a mentally healthy, confident, loving, laid-back man learning his wife cheated on him: "You're kidding, right? Why on earth would you cheat on me?! You think you can do better? Well, here, here's the door. Go try. I'll send you the divorce papers."'

 

If a person IS mentally healthy, this should be their approach. Thing is, this is NOT how the BS usually reacts. Hubby didn't. Nor did I.

BS shouldn't have to wait around til a WS gets it.

What, you're freaked out by what you did? Shouldn't have done it then...

[turnera]

Which is why I SHOWED it to him. If he can aspire to being healthy, he will lose his codependency and will react in a healthy way - do you want to stay with me or not? - and elicit a better end result.

[Mrs. John Adams]

How many Ws's get it immediately? and how many BS's know what they want from the WS except that they want it to NOT BE TRUE?

 

Look...when infidelity hits you in the face...you are taken completely off guard. You are not prepared...you have not read books on how to deal with it.

I seriously doubt that you ever even thought about infidelity coming into your house. I know we didn't.

 

You do the best you can do IN THE MOMENT....and sometimes it is not text book perfect. And some of us have really LIVED through infidelity and some of us have read books and participated on forums and think we know all the answers and even venture into diagnosing others....when we have no experience with infidelity in a marriage.

 

How many of us is prepared for infidelity? NONE.... absolutely none of us. NS...is living this in real life. This is not a game...this is not entertainment...this is HIS LIFE.

 

Infidelity is horrible. Your life as you know it is shattered...and you are just trying to figure out how to get through each day and keep your sanity.

You desperately want things to be the way they were before you found out your spouse betrayed you....you want your family...you want your spouse....you want YOUR LIFE back.....and you know it can never be the way it was.

[katielee]

people rarely do the right thing in infidelity. My point was that was what they should do. and I have seen people who have their s h i t together do this.

I think had my husband kicked me to the curb right away we would be in a lot better place right now. And he wouldn't have had to betray himself to get there.

i think if I had filed for divorce after my husband's second affair we would be a lot better off right now. But, I was a mess as well. not mentally healthy.

How the BS reacts after Dday can be very instrumental to the success of the reconciliation. BS's usually do the pick me dance, etc, (what this OP is doing). that never works, especially after the fire dies down and all you're left with is feeling like a doormat.

[Naively.Sensitive]

I do.

 

And hundreds, if not thousands, of threads just like this one over the past 20 years has proved it true.

 

Not to such an extreme or absolute, maybe, but the point is still valid.

 

Women SEEK strong men. Goes back to caveman days. NOT-strong men end up dead. So women used the only thing they could - looks and attraction. Which is ALSO ingrained in us. Why do you think the first thing men look for is a sexy, gorgeous, hot-bodied woman? (it's how women caught men, and survived) And why do you think the first thing women look for is strong, confident men? (it's how women survived, being protected by said strong men)

 

I can't speak for women (or even accurately for my wife), or even for all men, but I can tell you what I (as a man) do look for in a woman (did look for in my wife).

A sexy, gorgeous, hot-bodied woman is the last thing I looked for. What I first looked for was a compassionate, loving and caring woman, full of empathy. I first looked for a "soft" heart that could understand me and comfort me when I came home from a hard day of work and a hard experience of dealing with life in general.

To me, a hot meal at the end of the day and a warm hug, (or many warm hugs through the night), mean a lot more than just a sexy body.

You could say that when I bravely face every challenge in the world outside, it takes a huge toll on me and I look for my wife to "heal my wounds when I come home from the battle". This is probably my primal, innate, caveman need that kicks in when my deep emotional fears take over.

How to By-Pass Your Reptilian Brain and Restore Your Creative Power | Collective-Evolution

I'm not saying this is necessarily a fully evolved need that I have (It may have been applicable in times of battle, thousands of years ago, but this may be what I "feel" I need).

 

Another aspect of what I seek (as a man) is also the feeling of being needed by my wife. Of being "useful" to her, of being there to support her, emotionally and sexually. I also seek my wife to be completely honest and open with her vulnerabilities, (to me only). This is what makes me feel "safely needed". This is probably again my caveman, primal instinct, which is probably not evolved.

 

Regarding what women look for (or what my wife looks for), I have struggled to know this for sure, over the years. My wife uses the phrase "love me to death" (love her more than anything else in the world). Maybe that indirectly translates to me being strong enough to "give" her love (and support) rather than "get it" from her? Maybe the need by women for their man to be strong (emotionally?), is also that primal caveman instinct that has not evolved properly with time?

 

What I have also heard is that behind every man's success and/or failure lies a woman. What that tells me is that (because of whatever primal instincts), men need to be "built up" in order to be strong for their women. In many ways, there is a child in a man (atleast for me) that almost needs some motherly nurturing (even if it may be from a wife). I know this may sound absurd and strange, but to me (a man), a wife is primarily a woman and I look for nurturing from a woman, because women are biologically and physiologically inherent nurturers (The breasts being organs of nurturing). To a woman, this may be a conflicting dilemma, because she may think that, "I am supposed to be his wife, not his mother".

 

Can any men corroborate these feelings that I have as a man (Or am I the only such man?), particularly in view of being a betrayed man?

 

Anyway, I think what I'm trying to say is that neither men nor women have fully evolved out of that primal, caveman instinct, and that "partial" evolution creates a bigger intermediate (in current times) problem than a "complete" evolution. When things are half baked in evolution, you neither have a nice brown cake, nor do you have the batter pudding that you started with.

 

This also brings me to another fundamental question I have always wondered and debated about.... Are women (in general) emotionally stronger than men? Or is it the other way around?

 

Is such a generalization always also true for individual men and women, or does it depend on the actual person (and not the sex of the person)

 

Comments and polls please?

[Naively.Sensitive]

"Here's a mentally healthy, confident, loving, laid-back man learning his wife cheated on him: "You're kidding, right? Why on earth would you cheat on me?! You think you can do better? Well, here, here's the door. Go try. I'll send you the divorce papers."'

 

If a person IS mentally healthy, this should be their approach. Thing is, this is NOT how the BS usually reacts. Hubby didn't. Nor did I.

BS shouldn't have to wait around til a WS gets it.

What, you're freaked out by what you did? Shouldn't have done it then...

 

katielee, your story was very very insightful to me.

What you pointed out (I think) is very accurate.

What "should" happen is: People should be mentally and emotionally strong (hence affairs should not happen to begin with), but when affairs do happen, it mentally screws up the betrayed partner so badly that even a previously mentally sane person now becomes mentally incapable.

 

Whether or not a betrayed spouse was previously (before the affair) mentally capable or not (or did just the affair cause it to be so?) is debatable and I don't know if there is any research done that supports any such hypothesis.

 

What I do know however, is that its very very hard to heal with an affair as a betrayed spouse and this is true for MOST betrayed spouses. That seems to suggest that its the affair itself that screws up the mental state of the betrayed spouse and its not a preexisting condition. I compare myself to how I was with my wife before her affair, and I don't remember fighting so hard to try to "save the marriage" (and neither did she). We used to fight and threaten each other with divorce on some occasions. Isn't that a sign of a more "normal" mental state? Not that those fights have not happened after the affair (so maybe our mental states are recovering)

[turnera]

NS, have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? It's very insightful, and I push it on everyone. It's that good. Because it gets down to the basics of psychology, which is, well, kind of universal to humans.

 

Anyway, the author says that, throughout his practice, he's come to see that men and women, in general, have similar top Emotional Needs. For men, IIRC, it's usually sex, admiration, recreation, and domestic support. So you fit right in there.

 

If you end up back on the dating scene, there's another great book you might read, it talks about why we pick the people we pick for partners. It's called Getting The Love You Want. The second half is about fixing a broken marriage, but the first half is about how to pick a healthy partner and avoid the unhealthy ones.

[OneLov]

I can't speak for women (or even accurately for my wife), or even for all men, but I can tell you what I (as a man) do look for in a woman (did look for in my wife).

A sexy, gorgeous, hot-bodied woman is the last thing I looked for. What I first looked for was a compassionate, loving and caring woman, full of empathy. I first looked for a "soft" heart that could understand me and comfort me when I came home from a hard day of work and a hard experience of dealing with life in general.

To me, a hot meal at the end of the day and a warm hug, (or many warm hugs through the night), mean a lot more than just a sexy body.

You could say that when I bravely face every challenge in the world outside, it takes a huge toll on me and I look for my wife to "heal my wounds when I come home from the battle". This is probably my primal, innate, caveman need that kicks in when my deep emotional fears take over.

How to By-Pass Your Reptilian Brain and Restore Your Creative Power | Collective-Evolution

I'm not saying this is necessarily a fully evolved need that I have (It may have been applicable in times of battle, thousands of years ago, but this may be what I "feel" I need).

 

Another aspect of what I seek (as a man) is also the feeling of being needed by my wife. Of being "useful" to her, of being there to support her, emotionally and sexually. I also seek my wife to be completely honest and open with her vulnerabilities, (to me only). This is what makes me feel "safely needed". This is probably again my caveman, primal instinct, which is probably not evolved.

 

Regarding what women look for (or what my wife looks for), I have struggled to know this for sure, over the years. My wife uses the phrase "love me to death" (love her more than anything else in the world). Maybe that indirectly translates to me being strong enough to "give" her love (and support) rather than "get it" from her? Maybe the need by women for their man to be strong (emotionally?), is also that primal caveman instinct that has not evolved properly with time?

 

What I have also heard is that behind every man's success and/or failure lies a woman. What that tells me is that (because of whatever primal instincts), men need to be "built up" in order to be strong for their women. In many ways, there is a child in a man (atleast for me) that almost needs some motherly nurturing (even if it may be from a wife). I know this may sound absurd and strange, but to me (a man), a wife is primarily a woman and I look for nurturing from a woman, because women are biologically and physiologically inherent nurturers (The breasts being organs of nurturing). To a woman, this may be a conflicting dilemma, because she may think that, "I am supposed to be his wife, not his mother".

 

Can any men corroborate these feelings that I have as a man (Or am I the only such man?), particularly in view of being a betrayed man?

 

Anyway, I think what I'm trying to say is that neither men nor women have fully evolved out of that primal, caveman instinct, and that "partial" evolution creates a bigger intermediate (in current times) problem than a "complete" evolution. When things are half baked in evolution, you neither have a nice brown cake, nor do you have the batter pudding that you started with.

 

This also brings me to another fundamental question I have always wondered and debated about.... Are women (in general) emotionally stronger than men? Or is it the other way around?

 

Is such a generalization always also true for individual men and women, or does it depend on the actual person (and not the sex of the person)

 

Comments and polls please?

 

NS,

 

With all due respect, I really think your analysis paralysis is an attempt to avoid the only question that really matters right now. Does she truly want to roll-up her sleeves and fix this? It is imperative you receive an honest answer.

[Mrs. John Adams]

people rarely do the right thing in infidelity. My point was that was what they should do. and I have seen people who have their s h i t together do this.

I think had my husband kicked me to the curb right away we would be in a lot better place right now. And he wouldn't have had to betray himself to get there.

i think if I had filed for divorce after my husband's second affair we would be a lot better off right now. But, I was a mess as well. not mentally healthy.

How the BS reacts after Dday can be very instrumental to the success of the reconciliation. BS's usually do the pick me dance, etc, (what this OP is doing). that never works, especially after the fire dies down and all you're left with is feeling like a doormat.

 

Are you saying then...that you are not in a good place...and that you wish you had just divorced? Are you saying that the 7 years you have spent in reconciliation have been a waste of time?

[katielee]

Are you saying then...that you are not in a good place...and that you wish you had just divorced? Are you saying that the 7 years you have spent in reconciliation have been a waste of time?

 

not at all. I think we would be further along, and recovery wouldn't have been as hard, had we both been less co-dependent.

[Mrs. John Adams]

not at all. I think we would be further along, and recovery wouldn't have been as hard, had we both been less co-dependent.

 

Gotcha....the way you worded it...it sounded much more negative. You think then had you just divorced....the healing would have been faster?

 

There are many who have tried to tell NS...that sometimes that is a necessary step. Closure to this relationship...and then when things are more resolved...begin again.

[katielee]

I think if the BS takes the "I don't need this c r a p in my life" attitude rather then "OMG I have I fix this" attitude then both parties are better off.

Not sure that means going through with a divorce but certainly detaching and maybe filing would be the way to go... JMO