Rape culture.

[xxoo]

What I'm to tell is that we can't teach not to rape anymore than we can teach not to kill.

 

That's a chilling thought....

 

Most girls I know have had a similar experience. I don't recall anyone thinking that 'all men must rapists' as a result,nor they they guys themselves saw anything wrong in what they were doing.

 

Yeah, I just went on to date guys who did not try to force me into sex. I didn't conclude that all guys try to force sex.

[sambolini]

That's a chilling thought....

 

 

 

Yeah, I just went on to date guys who did not try to force me into sex. I didn't conclude that all guys try to force sex.

 

That's because you're a reasonable person.

 

However, it's what the law says that really matters. You may not treat all men as rapists, but there is room in the law for that happen based on how it's currently worded.

 

All it takes is an allegation. No proof, no evidence, just an allegation.

 

A collective argument had to have been made by a substantial group of people in order to make that happen. It doesn't take much brain power to conclude which group it could have been.

[sambolini]

I really don't want to dismiss your point outright, but the source you are referring is a blog. The guy has his own personal bias but it's not really well-researched. He takes one example of a feminist who, like the FBI (which, to my knowledge, isn't a feminist institution) doesn't think man can be raped.

 

You are amalgamating a bunch of things and,for some unknown reason, are putting it all down to the 'feminist movement'. I'm no feminist but even I can see the flaw in your argument.

 

Don't date a feminist if you don't want to, that's entirely your prerogative - it's just that 'feminists' probably aren't what you think they are.

 

Fair enough. That wasn't a good source I cited. I should have used a better example.

 

However, the fact that the FBI says women can't be raped by men is a prime example of inherent misandry in our culture.

 

I don't believe it's a stretch to deduce that any misandry in our culture is caused by feminists. They are the most anti-male demographic. We just witnessed a feminist in this thread completely minimize male homicide victims.

 

Not once have I minimized rape. I have continuously maintained that rape is a horrendous crime.

 

But it seems impossible to get a feminist to say homicide (where men are the victims) is also horrendous. And also deserving of a collective conversation about how to fix it.

 

My central argument has always been feminism doesn't really care about men's issues like they claim. This thread has done a fantastic job of proving that.

Edited December 17, 2015 by sambolini

[xxoo]

That's because you're a reasonable person.

 

However, it's what the law says that really matters. You may not treat all men as rapists, but there is room in the law for that happen based on how it's currently worded.

 

All it takes is an allegation. No proof, no evidence, just an allegation.

 

A collective argument had to have been made by a substantial group of people in order to make that happen. It doesn't take much brain power to conclude which group it could have been.

 

It was reasonable to conclude that only SOME men force sex, and date those who do not.

 

It would have been just as reasonable for me to have the rapist arrested (had he succeeded, which he didn't). The laws are necessary because some men rape. That that up with the rapists.

[Timshel]

None of the women posting are saying that it is ok for a woman to say rape through the court system or gossip. All posts I have read acknowledge the potential for abuse.

 

There is not an honest woman that would see an honest man be falsely accused or go to jail guys. We are not deaf to the potential. I have a son, many of the women posters have sons. If they don't, no bother, we do not hate men enough to tell lies. The only thing remarkable about being careful who you have sex with (beside STD's and pregnancy) is this. If you have random sex, I don't know.....then expect random consequences...

 

Women do need to protect themselves. It is a given and any father/mother who has a daughter will teach her this.

This topic has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with being a woman. Let's not play stupid. I assume all of you dudes read the news.

 

Rape is only about feminism in so much that women and men should say that it should not happen. It is a human problem.

[xxoo]

Rape culture. Completely made up. The people committing rapes know what they are. Whether or not they admit it is another story. Like Sam, I grew up in a real horrible neighborhood. All of the kids were delinquents, including me. Pretty much all of the adults were drug addicts, on welfare, and had spent some time in jail for something. Even so, every single one of us knew not to rape a woman. We knew not to get a girl drunk and take advantage of her. That stuff is common knowledge. The people in here suggesting otherwise have their anti-man agenda, and it is painfully obvious to most of the men here.

 

Ok, you knew not to.

 

You think that means no one did it?

 

It's absolutely bewildering that men would deny how common rape and sexual assault are simply because they don't personally see it or have it happen to them.

[GorillaTheater]

Ok, you knew not to.

 

You think that means no one did it?

 

It's absolutely bewildering that men would deny how common rape and sexual assault are simply because they don't personally see it or have it happen to them.

 

 

Some of us have had the issue pounded home in other profound ways. My daughter was date-raped, but didn't report it. Didn't even tell us for months. He may or may not be off the hook. There's still a possibility that he'll wind up as feral hog feed.

 

 

If you're not sexually assaulting women, you got nothing to worry about.

[xxoo]

Some of us have had the issue pounded home in other profound ways. My daughter was date-raped, but didn't report it. Didn't even tell us for months. He may or may not be off the hook. There's still a possibility that he'll wind up as feral hog feed.

 

 

If you're not sexually assaulting women, you got nothing to worry about.

 

Crap, GT. How infuriatingly and achingly awful

 

None of my personal friends ever reported a date rape or an attempt, even though we talked about the incidences amongst ourselves. It's a hard thing to do. The laws should help change attitudes for future generations, I hope.

[Grumpybutfun]

Some of us have had the issue pounded home in other profound ways. My daughter was date-raped, but didn't report it. Didn't even tell us for months. He may or may not be off the hook. There's still a possibility that he'll wind up as feral hog feed.

 

 

If you're not sexually assaulting women, you got nothing to worry about.

 

I know as a father, you must be livid. I know I would be. The lack of empathy and equanimity with the men here is astounding. If you aren't a rapist.....why go on for pages defending rapists?

Some guys need to get off the PUA, Red Pill, MRA sites. It is making them stupid.

G

[sambolini]

I know as a father, you must be livid. I know I would be. The lack of empathy and equanimity with the men here is astounding. If you aren't a rapist.....why go on for pages defending rapists?

Some guys need to get off the PUA, Red Pill, MRA sites. It is making them stupid.

G

 

Who said anything about defending rapists? This is about the tenth time I've said this: rape is a horrendous crime and rapists should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

 

Where I take issue is when the law treats me as a potential rapist by the sheer virtue of having a penis.

 

If you honestly read that I could in any way be defending rapists out of that statement, then your level of intellectual dishonesty is one of the largest cases I've ever seen.

 

By the way, I am a father to an 8 year old daughter. You hold no monopoly on fatherly love and concern.

[GorillaTheater]

Where I take issue is when the law treats me as a potential rapist by the sheer virtue of having a penis.

 

 

The law does no such thing, so don't start in with the "intellectual dishonesty" business.

[sambolini]

The law does no such thing, so don't start in with the "intellectual dishonesty" business.

 

Enigma has clearly shown that it does. He posted actual statutes from the state of California earlier in this thread.

 

What would you rather do? Debate the intent and wording of the law? Or smear those with whom you disagree?

[xxoo]

Enigma has clearly shown that it does. He posted actual statutes from the state of California earlier in this thread.

 

What would you rather do? Debate the intent and wording of the law? Or smear those with whom you disagree?

 

What wording would you suggest for a law about consent?

 

To me, "yes means yes" seems like common sense.

[Woggle]

I know as a father, you must be livid. I know I would be. The lack of empathy and equanimity with the men here is astounding. If you aren't a rapist.....why go on for pages defending rapists?

Some guys need to get off the PUA, Red Pill, MRA sites. It is making them stupid.

G

 

Nobody here is defending rapists but we know what kind of people are pushing for these laws and we don't trust it. The way some of these feminists talk about men leaves me to believe they pretty much believe all men are rapists. It would be like the Klan sponsoring an immigration bill or a crime bill that you know is just an excuse to target minorities. This kind of stuff is just an excuse to tar every male as a sexual predator. When a law is supported by people who think a kill all men hashtag or saying they are bathing in male tears should be encouraged then I tend to be more than a little suspicious of it's intentions. For the women here who have sons check out what the real agenda is. It is not what you think. Read up on who is behind this stuff.

[GorillaTheater]

Enigma has clearly shown that it does. He posted actual statutes from the state of California earlier in this thread.

 

What would you rather do? Debate the intent and wording of the law? Or smear those with whom you disagree?

 

 

If you read it, you'd realize that it only pertains to universities in California and effects you only if you're a student at said university, and then only in a Title IX context and not from a criminal standpoint. It was a knee-jerk reaction to the Department of Education's cracking down on campus sexual assaults and with the pendulum at the DOE now swinging to more concern over the rights of accused males, I don't see much impact from this law.

 

 

In other words, it's a hell of a leap from that to the law viewing you as a potential rapist.

[sambolini]

If you read it, you'd realize that it only pertains to universities in California and effects you only if you're a student at said university, and then only in a Title IX context and not from a criminal standpoint. It was a knee-jerk reaction to the Department of Education's cracking down on campus sexual assaults and with the pendulum at the DOE now swinging to more concern over the rights of accused males, I don't see much impact from this law.

 

 

In other words, it's a hell of a leap from that to the law viewing you as a potential rapist.

 

This is true. The bill only affects students of universities. But I don't think it would be much of a stretch to apply out to the general public at large. Although I was under the impression it was criminal.

 

However, I believe it's dangerous precedent. Is the CA DOE actually taking a look at this for modification?

[GorillaTheater]

This is true. The bill only affects students of universities. But I don't think it would be much of a stretch to apply out to the general public at large. Although I was under the impression it was criminal.

 

However, I believe it's dangerous precedent. Is the CA DOE actually taking a look at this for modification?

 

 

I don't know anything about the state DOE, but the US DOE may take a hard look at any dicey consent cases. Like I said, the pendulum has swung there, which everyone in the business saw coming. Except in the California legislature, apparently.

 

 

Look, I agree that the idea of "ongoing consent" and what that looks like is a nightmare from an enforcement standpoint. But there's simply not enough there to get all riled up about.

[losangelena]

Forgive me, I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm curious too to know why the notion of "yes means yes" is a bad thing? I'm honestly just curious, that's not a leading question.

 

I am a "feminist" in as much as the dictionary definition means that I believe in equal rights for men, women and everyone in between; I quite like men and find a hashtag like #killallmen to be quite disturbing and I certainly don't assume all men are potential rapists.

 

However (not having read it, either), I don't see the problem with the idea of consent laws. Why not go for an enthusiastic "yes" (both parties alert and present and reasonably sober) than have to navigate through the murky waters of possible "nos" afterward?

 

Like GT said above, if you're not sexually assaulting anyone, it doesn't seem like anyone has anything to worry about. That's like saying, "I don't speed, therefore I resent the existence of speeding laws because they imply that I MIGHT speed."

[jay1983]

If you read it, you'd realize that it only pertains to universities in California and effects you only if you're a student at said university, and then only in a Title IX context and not from a criminal standpoint. It was a knee-jerk reaction to the Department of Education's cracking down on campus sexual assaults and with the pendulum at the DOE now swinging to more concern over the rights of accused males, I don't see much impact from this law.

 

In other words, it's a hell of a leap from that to the law viewing you as a potential rapist.

 

I agree, but it's kinda like proof of rape culture. They'll show a video of some dumb kids and say these kids were taught this is okay. Or that dolce and gabana advertisement with the guy on top of the girl. Or when asked what how many drinks or what type of clothing. "You're saying that makes it okay?" No, I'm saying we can't wipe criminals off the face of the earth. Predators zero in on drunk girls in skimpy outfits. best bet is try and avoid and protect against.

[PrettyEmily77]

Fair enough. That wasn't a good source I cited. I should have used a better example.

 

However, the fact that the FBI says women can't be raped by men is a prime example of inherent misandry in our culture.

 

I don't believe it's a stretch to deduce that any misandry in our culture is caused by feminists. They are the most anti-male demographic. We just witnessed a feminist in this thread completely minimize male homicide victims.

 

Not once have I minimized rape. I have continuously maintained that rape is a horrendous crime.

 

But it seems impossible to get a feminist to say homicide (where men are the victims) is also horrendous. And also deserving of a collective conversation about how to fix it.

 

My central argument has always been feminism doesn't really care about men's issues like they claim. This thread has done a fantastic job of proving that.

 

With all due respect, this thread has only proven that you don't like 'feminists' as a 'collective movement' and can't seem to acknowledge that without 'feminism' vfew would be the women who could afford to take men on a date or have a relationship of equals (at least financially), or allow fathers to look after their kids however they wish.

 

Rape or homicide really have nothing to do with feminism at all - it's neither the cause nor the effect.

[Woggle]

Forgive me, I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm curious too to know why the notion of "yes means yes" is a bad thing? I'm honestly just curious, that's not a leading question.

 

I am a "feminist" in as much as the dictionary definition means that I believe in equal rights for men, women and everyone in between; I quite like men and find a hashtag like #killallmen to be quite disturbing and I certainly don't assume all men are potential rapists.

 

However (not having read it, either), I don't see the problem with the idea of consent laws. Why not go for an enthusiastic "yes" (both parties alert and present and reasonably sober) than have to navigate through the murky waters of possible "nos" afterward?

 

Like GT said above, if you're not sexually assaulting anyone, it doesn't seem like anyone has anything to worry about. That's like saying, "I don't speed, therefore I resent the existence of speeding laws because they imply that I MIGHT speed."

 

On the surface the laws seem like a good thing but when you look at who is the main driving force behind them it makes you wonder what their real agenda is. The ones who push the rape culture and patriarchy stuff are the same ones who make hash tags like kill all men and say they are drinking delicious male tears. When people who hate you are the ones pushing legislation it makes you wonder.

[Grumpybutfun]

Who said anything about defending rapists? This is about the tenth time I've said this: rape is a horrendous crime and rapists should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

 

Where I take issue is when the law treats me as a potential rapist by the sheer virtue of having a penis.

 

If you honestly read that I could in any way be defending rapists out of that statement, then your level of intellectual dishonesty is one of the largest cases I've ever seen.

 

By the way, I am a father to an 8 year old daughter. You hold no monopoly on fatherly love and concern.

 

By one post, you were able to conclude that my level of intellectual dishonesty is one of the largest you have ever seen? Wow, you must be psychic. You keep insulting posters here who don't agree with you, and while that may work in other forums, we don't really treat that as discussion here.

 

I'm sure you love and are concerned for your daughter.....I'm not sure how anything I wrote had anything to do with you at all. Myopic much? Oh, yes, you are the poster who went on and on about how feminism has nothing to do with men. It isn't supposed to. That is ok. This thread is about feminism in dating, and it got sidetracked by rape apologists and men who are scared of women actually saying that rape is bad and some men are rapists. I'm not a rapist, and so it doesn't bother me that women and men are enraged about rape enough to talk about how rape laws are ok. It makes me cringe when more attention is paid by men to false rape allegations and the aftermath of a few men's struggles with that than the epidemic that is rape. If that makes me intellectually dishonest because you think men should only be concerned about other men, then you need to learn about equanimity and equality.

 

As far as your viewpoints, since you opened a dialogue with me....are you sad due to your wife leaving or cheating or have you spent much of your life wondering why life is unfair? Did you turn to MRA sites to bolster your manly energy? Do you blame women for your problems? Why is everything about rape about you? Why do men think if laws are made to try to stop rape, it is about them? Open your eyes, stop being myopic and enjoy your child more rather than just using her as "I can't be sexist, I have a daughter" spill.

 

Life is about other people too, some aren't your gender,

Grumps

[losangelena]

By one post, you were able to conclude that my level of intellectual dishonesty is one of the largest you have ever seen? Wow, you must be psychic. You keep insulting posters here who don't agree with you, and while that may work in other forums, we don't really treat that as discussion here.

 

I'm sure you love and are concerned for your daughter.....I'm not sure how anything I wrote had anything to do with you at all. Myopic much? Oh, yes, you are the poster who went on and on about how feminism has nothing to do with men. It isn't supposed to. That is ok. This thread is about feminism in dating, and it got sidetracked by rape apologists and men who are scared of women actually saying that rape is bad and some men are rapists. I'm not a rapist, and so it doesn't bother me that women and men are enraged about rape enough to talk about how rape laws are ok. It makes me cringe when more attention is paid by men to false rape allegations and the aftermath of a few men's struggles with that than the epidemic that is rape. If that makes me intellectually dishonest because you think men should only be concerned about other men, then you need to learn about equanimity and equality.

 

As far as your viewpoints, since you opened a dialogue with me....are you sad due to your wife leaving or cheating or have you spent much of your life wondering why life is unfair? Did you turn to MRA sites to bolster your manly energy? Do you blame women for your problems? Why is everything about rape about you? Why do men think if laws are made to try to stop rape, it is about them? Open your eyes, stop being myopic and enjoy your child more rather than just using her as "I can't be sexist, I have a daughter" spill.

 

Life is about other people too, some aren't your gender,

Grumps

 

 

I love it when you let your grumpy show.

[Rejected Rosebud]

And some women never choose to be alone with a man. That's their right.

of course it is. Has anyone said otherwise?

 

It doesn't matter if you believe it's absurd. The decision is not up to you, and your feelings are irrelevant

If the only way a woman or girl could reasonably believe that she would not get raped was to never be alone with a guy, that would be absurd.

 

Consent is a two way street. And some men choose to not consent.

Well ... that's a no-brainer. Whoever doesn't want to have sex absolutely shouldn't. And they should still be safe, including you!

[Rejected Rosebud]

Yeah, it's not working, hence the need for more clarity in the law.

 

"In a study of undergraduate women, 19% experienced attempted or completed sexual assault since entering college."

 

A significant portion of men seem to not understand consent.

 

If the numbers of women who are sexually assaulted don't indicate that we live in a rape culture, I don't know what would.

 

Really really sadly - I honestly think that ALL the guys on this thread who are saying "rape culture is a joke" and that false accusation of rape is as serious a problem as rape itself - believe that those FACTS you stated are untrue.

 

AND THAT IS PART OF RAPE CULTURE.