Rape culture.

[joystickd]

I and many others have already done so.... You know I'm all those pages and pages of responses that you ignore. Your main direct response to me was just to insist I have a feminists arm shoved up my a$$ (a kind of sexually violent comment I might add).

 

Actually my main response is that it trivializes rape victims and takes accountability away from rapists. If you noticed I've said that consistently

[123321]

I and many others have already done so.... You know I'm all those pages and pages of responses that you ignore. Your main direct response to me was just to insist I have a feminists arm shoved up my a$$ (a kind of sexually violent comment I might add).

 

I saw it more as a reference to a sockpuppet with no will or ideas of it's own, but I guess you can see it any way you like.

[cja]

Actually my main response is that it trivializes rape victims and takes accountability away from rapists. If you noticed I've said that consistently

 

We have addressed that, and I know you just keep repeating yourself because you aren't posting to discuss only demean and belittle. Recognizing a culture that shames victims of sexual violence does not trivialize the victims or excuse the perpetrators at all. I'm a victim of sexual assault and I do not feel that recognizing the cultural element of sexism and rape trivializes me at all. Quite the opposite. Recognizing undertones of a rape culture or a culture that leans more toward blaming victims is not diametrically opposed to holding perpetrators accountable. Again it does the opposite by redirecting the focus from victims to a hopefully focus on the perpetrators.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Your response proves that you have no evidence to prove the existence of a "rape culture".

No it doesn't.

 

Here is proof that rape culture exists:

 

Women feel less safe than men do walking the streets at night.

 

According to the CDC, 19.3 % of American women (nearly 1 out of 5) and 2% of men have been raped. You don't think that shows a cultural trend?

 

"She asked for it" regarding a rape victim.

 

"Boys will be boys" regarding a male perpetrator

 

A rape victim's sexual history being a part of a rape investigation. Also her clothes and behavior.

 

The fact that there is even a concept of women needing to "be accountable" for getting raped.

 

Men pay good money to attend seminars where dating advice like this (Julien Blanc) is taught:

 

"If you're a white male in Tokyo, you can do what you want to a woman."

 

"Just grab her ... I pull her in, and she kind of, like, laughs and giggles. And all you have to say to, like, take the pressure off is just yell, 'Pikachu' or 'Pokémon' or 'Tamagotchi' or something ... I'm just romping through the streets, just grabbing girls' heads like, head pfft [sic] on the dick, head on the dick, yelling 'Pikachu' with a Pikachu shirt [on]."

 

Don't you think that there MUST be something inherent in our culture for such a thing to actually be sought out and paid for by MANY men?

 

Anyway, I'm done. The fact that you guys are going to trivialize all of this, again, is the best example of the problem that there is.

[cja]

I saw it more as a reference to a sockpuppet with no will or ideas of it's own, but I guess you can see it any way you like.

 

Seriously I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond... But hey i guess il go there if it's more of a sock puppet why uses the graphic language of a human sock puppet controlled by a hand up the a$$. Why go there? what does it add to a civil discussion?

Edited January 14, 2016 by cja

[joystickd]

No it doesn't.

 

Here is proof that rape culture exists:

 

Women feel less safe than men do walking the streets at night.

 

According to the CDC, 19.3 % of American women (nearly 1 out of 5) and 2% of men have been raped. You don't think that shows a cultural trend?

 

"She asked for it" regarding a rape victim.

 

"Boys will be boys" regarding a male perpetrator

 

A rape victim's sexual history being a part of a rape investigation. Also her clothes and behavior.

 

The fact that there is even a concept of women needing to "be accountable" for getting raped.

 

Men pay good money to attend seminars where dating advice like this (Julien Blanc) is taught:

 

 

 

Don't you think that there MUST be something inherent in our culture for such a thing to actually be sought out and paid for by MANY men?

 

Anyway, I'm done. The fact that you guys are going to trivialize all of this, again, is the best example of the problem that there is.

Actually you women trivialize it. I did a lot of research. I'm not the only one that says that the idea of a culture trivializes it. RAINN also says that. Dating advice seminars are not proof of rape culture just like a bald white male or a white person speaking of black committing crime are proof of racism. You all sound like the paranoid black person now lol.

 

Hell anyone should be cautious at night.

[joystickd]

Seriously I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond... But hey i guess il go there if it's more of a sock puppet why uses the graphic language of a human sock puppet controlled by a hand up the a$$. Why go there? what does it add to a civil discussion?

I'm just crude. Always been that way

[123321]

.... why uses the graphic language of a human sock puppet controlled by a hand up the a$$. Why go there?

 

When I used to do service calls in places like factories I would hear that expression and others like it. It's a common phrase in some circles.

[joystickd]

There are multiple problems with the entire rape culture idea. One, is the insistence that everyone who does not agree with feminists is a rape denier. Or rape apologist. No one is saying rape does not happen, nor is any man in here making excuses for a rapist. We just think these new age feminists are full of crap. As much as everyone loves to pull out basic debate terms to flaunt their education, you would think everyone would avoid the ad hominem by having nothing to offer in rebuttal other than "rape denier!"

 

Another problem, which is a fallacy pointed out by women regularly, is the idea that only women have anything to fear. This wildly untrue statement shows an inability to see beyond ones own limited perspective of the world. Ask any short, skinny guy if he is afraid of bigger, taller guys. Women think they are the only ones to have anything to fear in the world? Check out the murder stats in the USA. Take note of the amount of men who are murdered vs the amount of women.

 

Ladies who are afraid of being raped? Well, men get raped too. Just ask anyone who has served any time in prison. Not only that, but rape, while being a horrible crime, is not the only hardship in the world for a person to endure. Yes, a woman getting a bit too drunk around a bunch of strangers may be in danger of being raped, but if she were a man, he might be in danger of being robbed, beaten, or killed. Again, check into some crime stats.

 

The idea of rape happens, so we have a rape culture is poor logic. All sorts of things happen, but we don't claim to live in a culture that denies or encourages these things. This point was illustrated by 123321 when references drunk drivers.

 

The terms victim shaming and victim blaming need to be removed from everyone's vocabulary. As I have mentioned before, when I was the victim of a break in, the police sent an expert to my home to give me some advice on how to prevent future break ins. This expert gave me some valuable advice which I immediately followed, and oddly enough, I have never had another break in. I did not accuse the police of victim shaming or victim blaming, because it's childish to refuse useful advice that could prevent a bad situation because one is unable to accept that we actually have some power over our own lives. Yes, rapists are bad people, so anything we can do to educate women on how to avoid those bad people is not victim blaming, it is empowering.

 

That is the woman's definition of equality I want some of the same thing men have but able to also usey gender to be a victim

[loveweary11]

These are such extreme views.

 

In the middle of the woman claiming rape because she changed her mind and those fearful of every male thinking they'll be raped is reality.

 

Reality is: Most women are safe and most guys will not be accused of rape. There should be severe punishment for rape and false claims of rape.

 

These are far outlying scenarios everyone is arguing about. In real life, if a girl is into you, no rape is even considered in her mind. She WANTS you.

 

 

Having been raped myself, I never reported mine and felt it would have been wrong to do so. It was a female friend. On Molly. I was drunk. Not even remotely attracted to her. Wasn't my type. Blonde/blue/5'7/implants. I like those shorter brunettes.

 

Spent an hour pushing her off me and she never quit. After she dragged me out of my bed a few times, I finally tricked her into getting outside my door. I locked her out and went to bed. She then broke the damn door!! Broke in and continued. At this point it was like 4 or 5 am. I was drunk, I was exhausted. Molly fueled her. Alcohol was putting me out.

 

I finally couldn't do it anymore, physically. I couldn't move. She had unlimited Molly energy.

 

She 100% raped me and I could do nothing to stop it. For those of you thinking a guy can't gt raped, think again. Getting hard and getting wet are the same response. It's going to happen during rape for girls and guys. She did basically everything including unprotected sex. I couldn't move. I gave up.

 

I felt really dirty and gross the next day. Like nasty dirty. It lasted several days. Then it went away. I haven't thought about it in a long time.

 

Really wasn't the end of the world. I've had far worse things happen in life, as unpleasant as it was.

 

But having been raped and having never had a girl think about claiming rape on me... I feel like both views in this thread are too extreme.

 

Reality is right in the middle.

[cja]

RAINN never actually refuted the existence of a rape culture that came from one sensationalized time article. Rape culture was mentioned once in a 16 page report that said there might be an overemphasis on rape culture. Even I agree that there should be a balanced approach to looking at the issue, but since this thread is on rape culture that's what I'll address. I'm definitely no militant feminist. Also, one Google search reveals that RAINN received significant countering over a misunderstanding of the term rape culture. It in no way blames all men or even culture for the rape, that is squarely on the individual committing sexual violence. But the cultural elements of victim blaming and shaming that shield perpetrators from consequences, well, that's cultural element that allows it to continue. Rape and violence against women do not occur in cultural vacuum.

 

Why should victim blaming and shaming be removed from our vocabulary? Isn't that censorship? And do you want to go to places like the middle east and parts of asia and tell the women there that? They are way behind the west in the move toward female autonomy. Also, giving advice on how to avoid sexual violence is completely fine and reasonable. BUT there is a difference in giving advice and shaming/ blaming a victim. Does anyone deny that there are cultural elements to women being stoned to death and honor killings of women by family members in the middle east for just being raped or seen with men? Of course there are. Sure that's hyperbole but that is because the west has come a long, long way and actually the idea of rape culture helped us get there but there is still further to go, in my opinion of course.

 

And I never called anyone a rape denier. I don't think anyone on here denies rape exists or that it is bad but I do see a denial that there might just be cultural component that shields men (both men who rape women and men who rape men, do you really think that there are not men who also do not report being raped out of SHAME and blaming themselves, I should have fought harder etc) and women (where they are the rapists) from consequences. There is a cultural element to shielding perpetrators from consequences of rape. That's what is meant by a rape culture. Not some simplistic culture makes men rape. Why is there such a vehement insistence that there is no cultural component to sexual violence that though it has gone down a lot, is still fairly prevalent here in the west?

 

RAINN attacks the phrase "rape culture" in its recommendations to the White House task force on campus sexual assault.

 

People who use the phrase "rape culture" do not deny that rape is a matter of individuals making the active choice to rape. "Rape culture" is a very useful way to describe the idea that rapists are given a social license to operate by people who make excuses for sexual predators and blame the victims for their own rapes. Instead of recognizing this, or, at the very least, just not bringing it up at all in its memo, RAINN instead bashes a straw man, arguing that the focus on "rape culture" diverts "the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions."

Feminists who coined and spread the phrase "rape culture" are not denying that rapists need to be held personally responsible for their criminal behavior. They are pointing out all the cultural reasons that this doesn't happen: the myth that false accusations are common, the myth that rapists are just confused about consent, and the myth that victims share the blame for drinking too much or otherwise making themselves vulnerable. Only by tackling these cultural problems will we be able to see clearly that rapists know exactly what they're doing and punish them for it. Rape culture doesn't cause the desire to rape, but it allows rapists to rape with the confidence that comes from knowing you're very unlikely to be prosecuted for it.

[lollipopspot]

Your response proves that you have no evidence to prove the existence of a "rape culture".

 

Sure I do. Porn is ubiquitous in our culture. According to this study, 88.2% of it shows sexualized violence against women. It shows women either enjoying or being neutral to the violence against them.

 

This current study analyzes the content of popular pornographic videos, with the objectives of updating depictions of aggression, degradation, and sexual practices and comparing the study’s results to previous content analysis studies. Findings indicate high levels of aggression in pornography in both verbal and physical forms. Of the 304 scenes analyzed, 88.2 percent contained physical aggression, principally spanking, gagging, and slapping, while 48.7 percent of scenes contained verbal aggression, primarily name-calling. Perpetrators of aggression were usually male, whereas targets of aggression were overwhelmingly female. Targets most often showed pleasure or responded neutrally to the aggression.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publicatio...aspx?ID=254350

 

If almost every white person regularly watched videos of black men getting abused and lynched for pleasure, you'd be screaming your head off about it. But sexism (with violence against women at its core) isn't as politicized as racism.

[joystickd]

RAINN never actually refuted the existence of a rape culture that came from one sensationalized time article. Rape culture was mentioned once in a 16 page report that said there might be an overemphasis on rape culture. Even I agree that there should be a balanced approach to looking at the issue, but since this thread is on rape culture that's what I'll address. I'm definitely no militant feminist. Also, one Google search reveals that RAINN received significant countering over a misunderstanding of the term rape culture. It in no way blames all men or even culture for the rape, that is squarely on the individual committing sexual violence. But the cultural elements of victim blaming and shaming that shield perpetrators from consequences, well, that's cultural element that allows it to continue. Rape and violence against women do not occur in cultural vacuum.

 

Why should victim blaming and shaming be removed from our vocabulary? Isn't that censorship? And do you want to go to places like the middle east and parts of asia and tell the women there that? They are way behind the west in the move toward female autonomy. Also, giving advice on how to avoid sexual violence is completely fine and reasonable. BUT there is a difference in giving advice and shaming/ blaming a victim. Does anyone deny that there are cultural elements to women being stoned to death and honor killings of women by family members in the middle east for just being raped or seen with men? Of course there are. Sure that's hyperbole but that is because the west has come a long, long way and actually the idea of rape culture helped us get there but there is still further to go, in my opinion of course.

 

And I never called anyone a rape denier. I don't think anyone on here denies rape exists or that it is bad but I do see a denial that there might just be cultural component that shields men (both men who rape women and men who rape men, do you really think that there are not men who also do not report being raped out of SHAME and blaming themselves, I should have fought harder etc) and women (where they are the rapists) from consequences. There is a cultural element to shielding perpetrators from consequences of rape. That's what is meant by a rape culture. Not some simplistic culture makes men rape. Why is there such a vehement insistence that there is no cultural component to sexual violence that though it has gone down a lot, is still fairly prevalent here in the west?

 

RAINN attacks the phrase "rape culture" in its recommendations to the White House task force on campus sexual assault.

 

People who use the phrase "rape culture" do not deny that rape is a matter of individuals making the active choice to rape. "Rape culture" is a very useful way to describe the idea that rapists are given a social license to operate by people who make excuses for sexual predators and blame the victims for their own rapes. Instead of recognizing this, or, at the very least, just not bringing it up at all in its memo, RAINN instead bashes a straw man, arguing that the focus on "rape culture" diverts "the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions."

Feminists who coined and spread the phrase "rape culture" are not denying that rapists need to be held personally responsible for their criminal behavior. They are pointing out all the cultural reasons that this doesn't happen: the myth that false accusations are common, the myth that rapists are just confused about consent, and the myth that victims share the blame for drinking too much or otherwise making themselves vulnerable. Only by tackling these cultural problems will we be able to see clearly that rapists know exactly what they're doing and punish them for it. Rape culture doesn't cause the desire to rape, but it allows rapists to rape with the confidence that comes from knowing you're very unlikely to be prosecuted for it.

The problem with that argument is that the victims refuse to speak out. Also the system now over corrects to prosecute rape. Jobs teach about sexual harassment. Its doing what it needs to do that is change individual beliefs about rape. Forcing a group to change ultimately ends up alienating the group that needs changing and creating more resistance and also fringe feminists don't help because they are more about division than unity. There is no benefit for them and they lose power if there is unity. Is the very idea of rape culture a genuine seeking of a solution for a problem or a means to further divide the genders? My thoughts are it further divides the genders. Women now fear men and look at them differently. How does that benefit equality? It's a terrible angle to view the crime of rape

[joystickd]

Sure I do. Porn is ubiquitous in our culture. According to this study, 88.2% of it shows sexualized violence against women. It shows women either enjoying or being neutral to the violence against them.

 

 

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publicatio...aspx?ID=254350

 

If almost every white person regularly watched videos of black men getting abused and lynched for pleasure, you'd be screaming your head off about it. But sexism (with violence against women at its core) isn't as politicized as racism.

Actually I wouldn't be screaming about. If it's that much of a problem then create a venue that show positive images.

 

Lesbian and feminist porn would be included in that too. The porn argument wouldn't count because there are studies that show rape is reduced when porn is regularly viewed. Refer back to porn thread for that. As a person that sold porn its not as violent as you want to make it out to be. Gay and transsexual porn is way more violent and you don't hear them complaining. The problem is men control the companies. I've said this before women have an issue then start your own porn company

Take control of the images portrayed. You really don't want a porn argument with me.

[joystickd]

Further more porn shows negative stereotypes of all genders, racial groups and sexual orientation. The use of that in regards to rape culture is void. Try again honey

[cja]

The problem with that argument is that the victims refuse to speak out. Also the system now over corrects to prosecute rape. Jobs teach about sexual harassment. Its doing what it needs to do that is change individual beliefs about rape. Forcing a group to change ultimately ends up alienating the group that needs changing and creating more resistance and also fringe feminists don't help because they are more about division than unity. There is no benefit for them and they lose power if there is unity. Is the very idea of rape culture a genuine seeking of a solution for a problem or a means to further divide the genders? My thoughts are it further divides the genders. Women now fear men and look at them differently. How does that benefit equality? It's a terrible angle to view the crime of rape

 

There is a reasoned response and one where we have common ground. Yes, the only way to progress is to bring the genders together. I don't know honestly if the term "rape culture" was coined to engender only division and derision among the genders. I'm only just now reading about all this stuff on violence against women etc.

 

So I really don't know and maybe calling it something else would help, but what I do know is it has helped me as a former victim understand why when I did speak up (yes, some of us do), I was shamed and so shut up. The very few times I talked about it when I was still in HS, and I was a virgin who had never done anything more than kiss boys before, so my first under the clothes experience was forced on me by two men, yes, two grown men with careers. I was blamed and shamed, told not to tell and ruin basically decent men who were just drunk and made a mistake. Why ruin their careers and lives. And even now I wouldn't want such a harsh punishment on them. I don't believe punishment really works anyway. I'd want rehabilitation though, so that they understood why it was wrong.

 

I do appreciate the understanding I've been able to gain from looking at the cultural elements of violence against women, but again I don't focus on the term "rape culture" just what I've learned from it. And part of that is there's a difference between a focus on blaming and shaming the victim and a focus on the perpetrator. And since I live and interact in a western culture, I do think there are still ingrained cultural elements to the problem, whatever we want to call those cultural components.

 

Ultimately I really do want the genders to come together to a mutual understanding where neither gender exploits or uses the other. I have no idea of the best way to get there.

[joystickd]

There is a reasoned response and one where we have common ground. Yes, the only way to progress is to bring the genders together. I don't know honestly if the term "rape culture" was coined to engender only division and derision among the genders. I'm only just now reading about all this stuff on violence against women etc.

 

So I really don't know and maybe calling it something else would help, but what I do know is it has helped me as a former victim understand why when I did speak up (yes, some of us do), I was shamed and so shut up. The very few times I talked about it when I was still in HS, and I was a virgin who had never done anything more than kiss boys before, so my first under the clothes experience was forced on me by two men, yes, two grown men with careers. I was blamed and shamed, told not to tell and ruin basically decent men who were just drunk and made a mistake. Why ruin their careers and lives. And even now I wouldn't want such a harsh punishment on them. I don't believe punishment really works anyway. I'd want rehabilitation though, so that they understood why it was wrong.

 

I do appreciate the understanding I've been able to gain from looking at the cultural elements of violence against women, but again I don't focus on the term "rape culture" just what I've learned from it. And part of that is there's a difference between a focus on blaming and shaming the victim and a focus on the perpetrator. And since I live and interact in a western culture, I do think there are still ingrained cultural elements to the problem, whatever we want to call those cultural components.

 

Ultimately I really do want the genders to come together to a mutual understanding where neither gender exploits or uses the other. I have no idea of the best way to get there.

I don't think the other female users want unity

[123321]

I was shamed and so shut up.

 

....

 

Why ruin their careers and lives. And even now I wouldn't want such a harsh punishment on them. I don't believe punishment really works anyway. I'd want rehabilitation though, so that they understood why it was wrong.

 

I would actually be A-OK with terminating a couple adults who forced themselves on a HS age teenager. Harsh punishment CAN work. If it's harsh enough.

[Revolver]

Your response proves that you have no evidence to prove the existence of a "rape culture". Like I have said before no man here denies that rape doesn't happen but to create a term like rape culture trivializes the victims and takes accountability away from the perpetrators. The very fact that some of the female user go after the fact I'm Black shows no logical responses to anything I have to say. I've given my beliefs on things on a thread I created. Here is my suggestion you address those things I point out about rape culture I have consistently talked about.

 

 

Ive always loved the "well you're black you should understand" talking point/implication. It's a tried and true method that has been used by white feminists, The LBGT, Hispanic, and Asian community to compare their issues to the African American struggle

[joystickd]

Ive always loved the "well you're black you should understand" talking point/implication. It's a tried and true method that has been used by white feminists, The LBGT, Hispanic, and Asian community to compare their issues to the African American struggle

 

You forgot the if rape culture doesn't exist then racism doesn't exist point lol.

[Taramere]

You forgot the if rape culture doesn't exist then racism doesn't exist point lol.

 

Here's an example of rape culture. What happened in Cologne at New Year. The fact that the media shied away from reporting about it for days, for fear of stirring up anger against refugees.

 

What went on in Rotherham, for years. The failure of authorities to address it, because most of the perpetrators were from Pakistan - and people were more concerned with preserving a veneer of intercultural harmony than they were with protecting the young women who were being abused.

 

Rotherham in particular is an example of politicians, the police and community leaders being perfectly willing to throw all those victims under a bus in order to protect themselves from accusations of racism. Then there are thepeople who would dismiss such matters as "just some incident to incite more anger against people of Middle Eastern descent". As though the victims of these assaults are nothing more than an inconvenience, muddying the waters in the far more important matter of railing about racism.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Taramere

[lollipopspot]

You forgot the if rape culture doesn't exist then racism doesn't exist point lol.

 

Maybe it doesn't. If you'd stop giving decent people a reason to fear you (most people are uncomfortable seeing a group of black males coming towards them on the street), and officers a good reason to have to stop you, then there wouldn't be a problem. Keep yourself out of trouble and stop whining. There you go, all the understanding you deserve.

 

Meanwhile,

http://www.thenation.com/article/rape-minute-thousand-corpses-year/

Edited January 16, 2016 by lollipopspot

[joystickd]

Maybe it doesn't. If you'd stop giving decent people a reason to fear you (most people are uncomfortable seeing a group of black males coming towards them on the street), and officers a good reason to have to stop you, then there wouldn't be a problem. Keep yourself out of trouble and stop whining. There you go, all the understanding you deserve.

 

Meanwhile,

A Rape a Minute, A Thousand Corpses a Year | The Nation

 

It's a shame to have that much anger because someone disagrees with you. Where's the logic in that? That statement doesn't affect me. Like I said I don't go out in the work worried about being a victim

[joystickd]

Here's an example of rape culture. What happened in Cologne at New Year. The fact that the media shied away from reporting about it for days, for fear of stirring up anger against refugees.

 

What went on in Rotherham, for years. The failure of authorities to address it, because most of the perpetrators were from Pakistan - and people were more concerned with preserving a veneer of intercultural harmony than they were with protecting the young women who were being abused.

 

Rotherham in particular is an example of politicians, the police and community leaders being perfectly willing to throw all those victims under a bus in order to protect themselves from accusations of racism. Then there are thepeople who would dismiss such matters as "just some incident to incite more anger against people of Middle Eastern descent". As though the victims of these assaults are nothing more than an inconvenience, muddying the waters in the far more important matter of railing about racism.

I think that was less about rape culture and more about causing division. The fact that if was covered up caused more anger. People uniting because of a common enemy. Who benefits from rape culture? People that seek division.

[joystickd]

It's a shame to have that much anger because someone disagrees with you. Where's the logic in that? That statement doesn't affect me. Like I said I don't go out in the work worried about being a victim

 

I meant world damn mobile phone. Anyway no need to be so hostile because of my opinion. No man had an issue about rape.