In a marital standoff..brutal honesty needed

[RedBaron2765]

I'll have playful banter with a close friend of my wife and it does get a little sexual (nothing inappropriate, more like joking, and wife has heard it all). This woman is decent looking and has a very high sex drive based on what I've heard. I actually had a dream the other night that we had sex (she'd be the one woman that I would actually consider having an affair with).

[Anderlie]

She didn't want to send you the emails because she knew you would have wanted to find more evidence and you would have found it, even if there was nothing there. You were just in the frame of mind to be suspicious.

 

I think from here on out you do need to set boundaries. First one: you both stop checking each other's phones. You either trust each other or you don't. I know, I know 'if she's doing nothing wrong she has nothing to hide!' blah blah blah. But the point is you should be able to have a private life away from your spouse. You should have a spouse that loves and trusts you so completely they don't even want to check your phone - and that goes for both of you. I know the password to my husband's phone and he has mine but we never touch them. I think at most we'll read texts to each other if the other one has their hands full. Yeah he might cheat on me one day but me going through his things isn't going to prevent it, it's just going to drive us both crazy and prevent us from having the actual trust and loving we should have.

[Thicke2013]

Being in a different part of the country doesn't mean that two people cannot have an affair. In fact, sometimes distance makes things more convenient in terms of being discovered. How do you know your wife doesn't have another phone that you aren't aware of? I'm just playing devil's advocate and not saying that your wife is sleeping with this guy.

 

When I was in sales or being interviewed by a man, I used my megawatt smile and my friendly warmth to close deals or charm my interviewer. However, I never used terms of endearment as that would have been too unprofessional and disrespectful to my husband.

 

 

 

I guess where there's a will there's a way, but she has only been to this state making sales calls once in the past 3 years and I actually met her there as I was making sales calls nearby as well. We stayed in the same room a couple of nights. They could be emailing a lot more than what I know but I really don't think so. Nothing in my gut tells me she is cheating or even thinking about it.

[d0nnivain]

Well, we just had a somewhat better conversation on the phone.

 

 

We have decided to go out for dinner this evening and talk. Wish me luck.

 

 

I am thrilled that you finally wised up & decided to have this discussion in person. Non-verbal communication is critical in emotional discussions like this. It's also important to time these kinds of talks. Trying to have it when somebody is rushing out the door to work, is a recipe for disaster.

 

 

Slow down. Really connect over dinner. Do discuss the positives in your marriage & come armed with solutions for when these issues pop up again.

[Thicke2013]

I'll have playful banter with a close friend of my wife and it does get a little sexual (nothing inappropriate, more like joking, and wife has heard it all). This woman is decent looking and has a very high sex drive based on what I've heard. I actually had a dream the other night that we had sex (she'd be the one woman that I would actually consider having an affair with).

 

 

I know that is always a possibility as it is in any relationship but I am not too concerned especially in this case. She's a very attractive woman and if she wanted to have an affair she'd not have to look several states away to find a willing participant. Also she has shown me several times throughout our relationship that she shuts down any type of sexual advances pretty quickly.

 

She didn't want to send you the emails because she knew you would have wanted to find more evidence and you would have found it, even if there was nothing there. You were just in the frame of mind to be suspicious.

 

I think from here on out you do need to set boundaries. First one: you both stop checking each other's phones. You either trust each other or you don't. I know, I know 'if she's doing nothing wrong she has nothing to hide!' blah blah blah. But the point is you should be able to have a private life away from your spouse. You should have a spouse that loves and trusts you so completely they don't even want to check your phone - and that goes for both of you. I know the password to my husband's phone and he has mine but we never touch them. I think at most we'll read texts to each other if the other one has their hands full. Yeah he might cheat on me one day but me going through his things isn't going to prevent it, it's just going to drive us both crazy and prevent us from having the actual trust and loving we should have.

 

I can see my husband acting like you... and being stubborn I'd be like your wife. You've seen the email..what else do you want to do? See all their conversations or just analyse this one?

 

You need to let it go. It's her nature.... and you do need to keep customers sweet at times by being light hearted.

 

Now... knowing that this would bug the hell out of my H.. I'd probably give in and show it to him.. but it would piss me off that he had to see the convo. Try and have some trust in your wife.

 

The reality is I probably chat to men in a way I wouldn't do if my H was around. I mean nothing by it.. sometimes it's to negotiate a good price on something ....... feminine charm. It's not a big deal ... you will drive yourself crazy over this.

 

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head so to speak. I was in a particular frame of mind and she said last night that she felt like I was attacking her and her character. I explained that I was not attacking her but I felt she was dismissing my concerns and feelings regarding the flirty nature of the emails. We actually had a very nice discussion over dinner and I believe that this issue has been resolved. I told her that I understand the flirty banter as I am in sales also. It's just surface stuff. She told me she has never even seen this man nor ever met him. She was not interested, just being friendly.

 

Synopsis is this. She felt attacked and accused. I felt dismissed and that my feelings were trivialized. We discussed this at length and hopefully when something like this comes up again it will be a mere discussion and not a standoff. We discussed the need to set healthy boundaries that work for both of us. I understand that she has a job to do and she is very good at it that I don't need to interfere with and I also have to trust her. I asked her to draw the line at sexual innuendos. I am not comfortable with that and she has agreed.

 

As for the checking phones thing, we don't check one another's phones a lot like may have been implied. It's just that we believe in an open phone policy. We each have the same pass code. While driving I will have her take and respond to emails or texts for me, etc. We have both been burned in past relationships so the open policy tends to work for us more as a show of open honest communication. I truly believe this instance was a miscommunication between us. Thanks for all the advice. As I said earlier, it was great to get the different perspectives on the matter.

[Thicke2013]

I am thrilled that you finally wised up & decided to have this discussion in person. Non-verbal communication is critical in emotional discussions like this. It's also important to time these kinds of talks. Trying to have it when somebody is rushing out the door to work, is a recipe for disaster.

 

 

Slow down. Really connect over dinner. Do discuss the positives in your marriage & come armed with solutions for when these issues pop up again.

 

Very true words. I guess in a marriage you never stop working on communication. I did try to have the conversation in person prior to leaving for work and she closed up on me. That's why I tried email once we arrived at work. She told me last night that when we have what I feel are calm discussions about issues like this that I am very intense and it puts her on edge. That is something that I need to be aware of. I am a very passionate person in general so I see how it could be taken that way, especially when the issue has to do with her and another male. After some thought I think my facial expressions and overall body language probably give away the fact that I am upset. I was not trying to be intense, just convey my displeasure with the situation. The last thing I want ever is for her to feel attacked from me. That is not a posture I would ever take intentionally. I do not want my wife to ever feel attacked by her husband. This is something I will give special attention to going forward.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Thicke2013

[sandylee1]

Very true words. I guess in a marriage you never stop working on communication. I did try to have the conversation in person prior to leaving for work and she closed up on me. That's why I tried email once we arrived at work. She told me last night that when we have what I feel are calm discussions about issues like this that I am very intense and it puts her on edge. That is something that I need to be aware of. I am a very passionate person in general so I see how it could be taken that way, especially when the issue has to do with her and another male. After some thought I think my facial expressions and overall body language probably give away the fact that I am upset. I was not trying to be intense, just convey my displeasure with the situation. The last thing I want ever is for her to feel attacked from me. That is not a posture I would ever take intentionally. I do not want my wife to ever feel attacked by her husband. This is something I will give special attention to going forward.

 

There's a lot that comes from body language and not just the spoken word. You don't want her to have to watch her every word, especially when she's trying to provide good customer service and keep the sales going.

 

I hope you're in a better place now.

[road]

 

I looked at that email and found some pretty flirty banter between them. When she returned I asked her about it and she just laughed it off. ...... First of all she started the email to him with "Hey gorgeous!". ..... but that is how she has always addressed me, even when we first started dating. .....she said for his troubles (something had gotten messed up with his order) she would buy him a bottle of his favorite bourbon. He responded with something to the affect of some alcohol makes him want to fight and some make him want to love. My wife responded with, "I like lovings!" and a smiley face. That is where I had a problem. She said it's just playful banter. I said it made me feel uncomfortable and was a little too flirty. Just this morning I asked her if it was just playful banter if she would send me the email conversation so that I could read it and maybe I would understand it. Her response has been that my jealousy is going to kill our relationship.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That conversation went past friendly banter.

 

 

That conversation was a prime example of how affairs start by not maintaining proper boundaries.

 

 

The bolded above is another example of deflecting you from getting to look at her emails. Which is never a good sign.

 

 

Remember those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

[d0nnivain]

Very true words. I guess in a marriage you never stop working on communication. I did try to have the conversation in person prior to leaving for work and she closed up on me. That's why I tried email once we arrived at work. She told me last night that when we have what I feel are calm discussions about issues like this that I am very intense and it puts her on edge. That is something that I need to be aware of. I am a very passionate person in general so I see how it could be taken that way, especially when the issue has to do with her and another male. After some thought I think my facial expressions and overall body language probably give away the fact that I am upset. I was not trying to be intense, just convey my displeasure with the situation. The last thing I want ever is for her to feel attacked from me. That is not a posture I would ever take intentionally. I do not want my wife to ever feel attacked by her husband. This is something I will give special attention to going forward.

 

 

DH & I took a communications workshop shortly after we were married. I'm verbal. He's an introvert. I was struggling because other than him most of my long term relationships were with verbally expressive men (actors, lawyers & salesmen) I was stymied by the stoic Marine.

 

 

I am also an intense person. Just yesterday some stranger told me to chill. I politely explained that I was relaxed. He pressed. I snapped & barked, "I was perfectly calm & having a nice, easy day until some guy I don't know decided to try to rudely impose his personal opinion about how I should run my life on me. Now I'm annoyed." He backed off.

 

 

When dealing with a spouse who thinks you are too intense, watch your words & body language. Use I statements & feel statements. Don't attack. Give her ways to help you rather then makes her feel attacked. Address your insecurities & acknowledge that they aggravate the situation. Separate your emotional & intellectual actions.

[Thicke2013]

That conversation went past friendly banter.

 

 

That conversation was a prime example of how affairs start by not maintaining proper boundaries.

 

 

The bolded above is another example of deflecting you from getting to look at her emails. Which is never a good sign.

 

 

Remember those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

 

 

 

I guess it's a matter of perspective. She didn't think it was anything past friendly banter. I did. Tonight she has agreed to print off the emails and bring them home so that we can set the boundaries that we both agreed to last night. I am happy with that conclusion.

[Thicke2013]

DH & I took a communications workshop shortly after we were married. I'm verbal. He's an introvert. I was struggling because other than him most of my long term relationships were with verbally expressive men (actors, lawyers & salesmen) I was stymied by the stoic Marine.

 

 

I am also an intense person. Just yesterday some stranger told me to chill. I politely explained that I was relaxed. He pressed. I snapped & barked, "I was perfectly calm & having a nice, easy day until some guy I don't know decided to try to rudely impose his personal opinion about how I should run my life on me. Now I'm annoyed." He backed off.

 

 

When dealing with a spouse who thinks you are too intense, watch your words & body language. Use I statements & feel statements. Don't attack. Give her ways to help you rather then makes her feel attacked. Address your insecurities & acknowledge that they aggravate the situation. Separate your emotional & intellectual actions.

 

 

 

From talking with her last night I mainly need to watch my body language. She says even before I said a word she watched my body language change and my face tighten. Even though I tried to speak calmly, I put her on edge with my body language. Knowing her childhood I can understand why such things put her on the defensive. She grew up with a bi-polar dad who beat her mom and was pretty rough with all the kids as well. My physical reactions reminded her of that time. I can empathize with that so from now on I will be more aware of my body language when I wish to broach a subject of discomfort. You are very correct. I have to separate the emotional and the intellectual. I do that very well in business, it will take some effort and practice to master in my marriage.

[BettyDraper]

I guess where there's a will there's a way, but she has only been to this state making sales calls once in the past 3 years and I actually met her there as I was making sales calls nearby as well. We stayed in the same room a couple of nights. They could be emailing a lot more than what I know but I really don't think so. Nothing in my gut tells me she is cheating or even thinking about it.

 

I'm glad that your gut feeling is not that your wife is cheating.

I don't understand why other members are acting like you are sooo wrong for being concerned. Married people shouldn't be overtly flirting with others-full stop. That behavior is unacceptable and needs to be nipped in the bud.

[Quiet Storm]

From talking with her last night I mainly need to watch my body language. She says even before I said a word she watched my body language change and my face tighten. Even though I tried to speak calmly, I put her on edge with my body language. Knowing her childhood I can understand why such things put her on the defensive. She grew up with a bi-polar dad who beat her mom and was pretty rough with all the kids as well. My physical reactions reminded her of that time. I can empathize with that so from now on I will be more aware of my body language when I wish to broach a subject of discomfort. You are very correct. I have to separate the emotional and the intellectual. I do that very well in business, it will take some effort and practice to master in my marriage.

 

 

I understand this (I grew up with a cokehead/alcoholic dad), but I also think you should be able to be yourself with your spouse. You should be able to communicate openly. You both should be able to express your true emotions to each other, even negative feelings. If there is anyone in the world that you should be real with, it's the person you married & promised your life to.

 

Your body language indicated that you were upset because you were upset. It's OK to be upset, as long as you aren't abusive about it. If the sight of your jaw tightening makes her feel attacked because of her childhood, then that's a problem that she needs help coping with. You shouldn't have to be perfectly stoic & unemotional. Your feelings count, too.

 

For me, marriage is about intimacy and in order to have that intimacy, there needs to be authenticity and vulnerability. I want my spouse to be able to express his true emotions to me, whether it is anger, insecurity, worries, grief, stress, etc.

 

Of course there are limits to this (no screaming, name calling, throwing things, getting physical), but if I had to worry about my facial expressions upsetting him, and found that I was altering my natural reactions for his benefit, I would feel like I was being phony.

 

The goal in my marriage isn't to be happy 100% of the time and avoid all conflict- I want us to be real with each other, flaws & all, and to be able to express our emotions honestly. Even if it's uncomfortable sometimes. So you should ask your wife something like, "What kind of marriage do you want? One where we are free to express ourselves openly, even if there are negative emotions involved? Or one where we avoid conflict & stuff our feelings to keep the status quo?"

 

I think you should tell your wife that you understand that conflict may bring up bad memories from her past, but that it's OK to express feelings of displeasure, anger or disappointment & have your body language reflect your emotions, as long as it's not abusive. You don't want to bring back bad memories for her, but you need to be able to naturally express your feelings.

 

It's OK to adjust your communication style, but just be careful that you aren't too accommodating to the point that you stuff your own feelings. Your wife was flirting with another guy and you have every right to be upset about it. You absolutely are not OK with what she said to that guy and if that makes her uncomfortable, then she needs to look in the mirror & adjust her own behavior- not expect you to baby her.

[road]

I guess it's a matter of perspective. She didn't think it was anything past friendly banter. I did. Tonight she has agreed to print off the emails and bring them home so that we can set the boundaries that we both agreed to last night. I am happy with that conclusion.

 

 

That is bad you don't know if she left out emails our edited them. You need direct access to those emails.

[Cephalopod]

Sit down with your wife and set down definitive ground-rules for your relationship. Rules that both you and she must abide by. Do it in writing so that neither one of you has any question as to what is a rule and what is not. You have made her aware that flirty texts are a no-no and you will not tolerate them. That is good. Now get that down as one of the rules on your list.

[11012015]

Why do you think this is the only relationship where your jealousy has been an issue?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

My counter reaction was "Why do you think that was the ONLY 'playful banter' she has/had with someone?"

[Thicke2013]

I understand this (I grew up with a cokehead/alcoholic dad), but I also think you should be able to be yourself with your spouse. You should be able to communicate openly. You both should be able to express your true emotions to each other, even negative feelings. If there is anyone in the world that you should be real with, it's the person you married & promised your life to.

 

Your body language indicated that you were upset because you were upset. It's OK to be upset, as long as you aren't abusive about it. If the sight of your jaw tightening makes her feel attacked because of her childhood, then that's a problem that she needs help coping with. You shouldn't have to be perfectly stoic & unemotional. Your feelings count, too.

 

For me, marriage is about intimacy and in order to have that intimacy, there needs to be authenticity and vulnerability. I want my spouse to be able to express his true emotions to me, whether it is anger, insecurity, worries, grief, stress, etc.

 

Of course there are limits to this (no screaming, name calling, throwing things, getting physical), but if I had to worry about my facial expressions upsetting him, and found that I was altering my natural reactions for his benefit, I would feel like I was being phony.

 

The goal in my marriage isn't to be happy 100% of the time and avoid all conflict- I want us to be real with each other, flaws & all, and to be able to express our emotions honestly. Even if it's uncomfortable sometimes. So you should ask your wife something like, "What kind of marriage do you want? One where we are free to express ourselves openly, even if there are negative emotions involved? Or one where we avoid conflict & stuff our feelings to keep the status quo?"

 

I think you should tell your wife that you understand that conflict may bring up bad memories from her past, but that it's OK to express feelings of displeasure, anger or disappointment & have your body language reflect your emotions, as long as it's not abusive. You don't want to bring back bad memories for her, but you need to be able to naturally express your feelings.

 

It's OK to adjust your communication style, but just be careful that you aren't too accommodating to the point that you stuff your own feelings. Your wife was flirting with another guy and you have every right to be upset about it. You absolutely are not OK with what she said to that guy and if that makes her uncomfortable, then she needs to look in the mirror & adjust her own behavior- not expect you to baby her.

 

 

I agree with everything you said and we both seem to understand that. While I can't change who I am anymore than she can change her upbringing, we can both be sensitive to one another and try to make accommodations accordingly. Isn't that what a loving relationship should look like? We've had some great conversations over the past several days. She understands why I got upset. We have set some boundaries that we both can be happy with. Thank you for your insight.

[Thicke2013]

That is bad you don't know if she left out emails our edited them. You need direct access to those emails.

 

 

True, but she had let me see them willingly at first. She only became reluctant when I kept asking. She felt like I was attacking her character. I am choosing to trust her. She has given me no reasons not to trust her. Only an email that I thought was too flirty. I don't feel this is reason enough to go full blown detective and start demanding complete access to her emails. If I ask her to see something she shows me. I am choosing to trust until given a reason not to.

 

Sit down with your wife and set down definitive ground-rules for your relationship. Rules that both you and she must abide by. Do it in writing so that neither one of you has any question as to what is a rule and what is not. You have made her aware that flirty texts are a no-no and you will not tolerate them. That is good. Now get that down as one of the rules on your list.

 

 

We did just that this weekend. We discussed what it was that made me uncomfortable, why she needs to be friendly due to her job, etc. It was a very good conversation that ended with the both of us having an understanding of where the other was coming from and we were able to set clear guidelines for us both to follow.

 

My counter reaction was "Why do you think that was the ONLY 'playful banter' she has/had with someone?"

 

 

We agreed this weekend that going forward she will not use the same "pet names" with anyone else that she uses with me. She said she didn't think anything about calling him gorgeous because she has used that word as well as sweetie, cutie, and others most of her life. It's just conversation for her. We also drew the line at sexual innuendos. I told her that it made me uncomfortable and she understood. We read the emails together and it was very professional with the exception of the few that I've already told you about. At one point he mentioned loving on his critters (dogs and cats he said he has) and when she replied that she liked lovings she was referencing his animals. Even still, I know how I would have taken that email had I received it from a female and I am certain that he took it the same.

 

As I've said, I am choosing to trust her. She has given me absolutely no reason to doubt her and aside from initially becoming defensive has been very understanding and willing to talk through and discuss my feelings on the matter. This small incident should only serve to strengthen our relationship and improve our communication. Thanks again everyone for the advice. It is much appreciated.

Edited January 4, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Remove bolding

[road]

True, but she had let me see them willingly at first. She only became reluctant when I kept asking. She felt like I was attacking her character. I am choosing to trust her. She has given me no reasons not to trust her. Only an email that I thought was too flirty. I don't feel this is reason enough to go full blown detective and start demanding complete access to her emails. If I ask her to see something she shows me. I am choosing to trust until given a reason not to.

 

 

 

 

We did just that this weekend. We discussed what it was that made me uncomfortable, why she needs to be friendly due to her job, etc. It was a very good conversation that ended with the both of us having an understanding of where the other was coming from and we were able to set clear guidelines for us both to follow.

 

 

 

 

We agreed this weekend that going forward she will not use the same "pet names" with anyone else that she uses with me. She said she didn't think anything about calling him gorgeous because she has used that word as well as sweetie, cutie, and others most of her life. It's just conversation for her. We also drew the line at sexual innuendos. I told her that it made me uncomfortable and she understood. We read the emails together and it was very professional with the exception of the few that I've already told you about. At one point he mentioned loving on his critters (dogs and cats he said he has) and when she replied that she liked lovings she was referencing his animals. Even still, I know how I would have taken that email had I received it from a female and I am certain that he took it the same.

 

As I've said, I am choosing to trust her. She has given me absolutely no reason to doubt her and aside from initially becoming defensive has been very understanding and willing to talk through and discuss my feelings on the matter. This small incident should only serve to strengthen our relationship and improve our communication. Thanks again everyone for the advice. It is much appreciated.

 

WW not allowing you to have open access to her emails texts or phone is bad no matter her justification. For those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. Specially after she was caught having inappropriate behavior.

Edited January 4, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Unbold quote

[Thicke2013]

WW not allowing you to have open access to her emails texts or phone is bad no matter her justification. For those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. Specially after she was caught having inappropriate behavior.

 

 

 

I appreciate the concern, however she is not a Wayward Wife. She is my wife. She has never cheated on me nor shown signs of such. I'm not sure if you read all of my responses or not but she only refused to let me read them for a short time and it was a miscommunication. She thought I was asking to see the ones I'd already seen between them, in reality I was asking to see his response. He never responded. She printed out the entire conversation which consisted of about six (6) back and forth responses between the two of them. I was able to see the entire conversation in full context and while still a bit flirty, not as out of line as I had thought. So we sat down, emails in front of us, and talked them through. She explained how she has never met the guy, nor ever seen him even in photos. She has dealt with him a few times via email or phone. She doesn't know if he is "gorgeous" or not and was only using that as a part of speech which she does often. I explained to her how that made me feel since she has called me that since day one. She agreed to stop using that and other words that she uses with me in business. As for the other comment, she didn't see the big deal in it but I told her how I thought most every guy I know would take that email. Again, she reiterated that she didn't mean it in that context. I asked her to think twice before engaging in that type of banter with another guy as it made me uncomfortable. She said she understood and wouldn't do it again.

 

 

She checks emails in front of me, her phone is always open to me, and she did exactly what I asked in this moment of insecurity. I feel that she has done everything that a loving wife should do in this situation.