Having a hard time going through with divorce and filing papers

[dreamingoftigers]

Dreamingoftigers, first I am very, VERY, VERY f*9ng afraid of EVER being mad at my husband. I know that seems rediculous to most, but slomehow I don't think it does to you. It's hard, being in the negative sound cycher for so many years, I sart to feel it is normal, nothing more or less than I deserve. I know to most people with a good sense of self, you think I'm a piece of ****. And you are right, really, I am, but I AM TRYING to change. I know that's not worth much, but I do try. And the thing is my husband is not a piece of **** or a 'bad seed' as some have said. He's a person, a human being, and really we are all just lost people looking for love, fulfillment and excitement. I know my husband went about it in the wrong way (an affair) but I don't even really have anger there. He found later his affair was not fulfiling. actually the meanest thing I've said to him was to go back to her, to his affair partner but he won't.

 

Seriously, reread my posts and see where I think that a victim of domestic violence, coupled with the typical PTSD/trauma is a "POS."

 

Frankly, I spent years trying to work things out with my very damaged, by also very entitled, and AT THE TIME abusive husband.

 

I think affairs are often like drugs (or whatever else is adductive) and to a person with limited coping skills and an overall lack of empathy or foresight; it is easy for someone who lacks the skills of understanding their own feelings and the necessity of taking responsibility for them to "fall into the vortex."

 

That being said: I don't think you or your husband are POS.

 

HOWEVER: I know the damage inflicted from being on the receiving end of that behaviour and as much as t

You care for him; he may NEVER recognize his own culpability. As well, in the early years we had a therapist that enabled him (to this day I don't get why exactly, aside from the fact that he has a nice manner and had a poor childhood.) When I realized that it was really becoming a conduit for him to outright lie, disappear and be even worse without any progress or recourse and one session I went in personally she started screaming at me that I was going to lose my marriage unless I became used to the fact that "he was a sexual addict" and that meant accepting that he would be able, and should be able to cheat on me left and right, and I needed to figure out that being married was more important than the "standard I wanted to impose on him ." Like he never chose to say marriage vows either. Also that my feelings on the subject were only going to "shame him" and that I had already "let myself go" so expecting marital loyalty was naive anyway.

 

Also, the same man that she had yelled at my in marital session was "not really at all a full-blown addict with the issues surrounding that and that I was overreacting suggesting divorce and crying around him so much." Shifted (the NEXT SESSION) to how I'd "spent months in denial, he is clearly a very terribly afflicted addict and you are in total denial. That also makes you a completely inadequate parent. I clearly knew that he would 'never get any better and should've left a year ago.'" My testimony of events never changed. She literally went from one session telling me that he was a total victim and that he hasn't done anything that bad to the next session practically raging at me that somehow "I knew he was so terrible and would 'never ever' get better."

 

I let her go that day because that was just too nuts.

We went to her originally to address his potential sexual addiction. HE wanted past pornography, and she practically signed a permission slip for that AND BEYOND and regularly in session let me know that it was my fault that he was "driven to such lengths" even though I had no idea he was cheating for awhile and viewing porn with such regularity. I was accused of lots of totally ridiculous stuff like even trying to set him up to cheat so I could "punish him." Which was completely untrue. Truth is it completely blindsided me. I found that she constantly made me responsible for his bad actions and it didn't seem to track with my behaviour at all. At that point I was REALLY TRYING to reign-in every last tear, raise an infant daughter, run a business and cope with his frequent disappearing and cheating. I was in my mid-twenties and just devastated. She often accused me of just really weird crap. Like the "cheat and test and punish." It didn't fit me at all. I never put him in some deeply intolerable situation where he was "pushed to cheat." And I didn't "punish him" afterward. Frankly anytime I expressed a simple feeling about it or he found out I had PRIVATELY cried he would lose it. I found myself calling the Distress Center when he would be out just to talk to SOMEONE that I was "somewhat allowed" to talk to.

 

I found it incredibly imbalanced that she never once suggested protecting myself; frankly gave him stupid catchphrases that took years to stop hearing and recommended that we stop having any form of intimacy altogether until "we see what kind of traction of relationship has without being physically close including hugs and touching." That pretty much left shards of a marriage by the time it was done, and truthfully we had had issues going in, but nothing compared to the issues we had coming out of it. She was nothing short of a terrible, unethical counselor that even at one point breached my parent's confidentiality. (How's that for boundaries that they saw her too and I got to hear about their session?)

 

I don't believe in blaming the victim of a circumstance.

Often the victim feels confused and like they are getting kicked in the head.

 

It took years to break the cycle with my husband.

But once it broke, the chains were off.

I am willing to work through what happened and I still love my husband. I get what it is like to have really crap skills when it comes to emotions and relationships.

 

BUT I categorically WILL NOT ACCEPT any abusive behaviour from him. PERIOD. Nor anyone.

 

I won't be told that he can cheat or lie or insult me to my face or come home drunk. This is a 37 year-old man who wouldn't think twice about frying my arse over these things. Ironically enough, he would move quickly to protect our daughter against my poor parenting if that were the case.

 

I was able to shield my daughter from everything but him leaving and not letting her know at all. She doesn't know about him stepping out those years ago. Or the things he's called me. He was never allowed around her drunk. But he would go and she would ask where he was and I wouldn't cover for him. I would tell her, 'I don't know. Would you like yo call him and leave a message?' Often shed say no. She would get very mad about him just being gone. He would get mad that I wouldn't tell her some made-up excuse. Not my problem. My job was to reassure her that I would be there for her always, not paint a BS portrait of her Dad. I believe her confronting him on it (and myself as well) had a huge impact on his pattern of behaviour.

 

If he decides to disappear on us again, he better keep going. He has no place here anymore.

Same if he drinks, same if he cheats. That door only opens one way.

 

But there was absolutely no room for progress until that door became a one-way door. And he wanted to test it a few times too. Sure, go ahead. See what happens when you get on the other side if you are so inclined.

 

I decided years ago that I would no longer "negotiate with his demons" because they wouldn't settle for less than everything. So I won't let them in my house one little crack. And if he wishes to stay here, he better not invite them in either.

 

OP, you (and some of the other posters unfortunately) seem to want yo make this about you or he being a "bad /inadequate and/ or stupid person."

 

It's a strange men's for me to even think of viewing the situation through, regardless of the fact that it is common.

 

What I do see is a lack of empathy from him, a sense of entitlement and high-risk and inconsiderate behaviour.

 

I see from you, you devaluing yourself so as not to hurt him by leaving the relationship and feeling overly responsible for the current state of it. I would guess you feel VERY TRAPPED by all of this. You don't want to his issues and have a very rough time rejecting him because you see him as damaged or "just not understanding."

 

These things are behaviours. You can reject his crappy behaviours without crucifying him as a person. And frankly, I think you absolutely should. For yourself and him.

 

One of the ways I rebuilt my self-esteem was actually the 180. Once I started rejecting him blowing up at me, he got REALLY mad. But I didn't have to listen to it anymore either. I refused to take his rude messages / texts. I just ignored them.

[dreamingoftigers]

The other major thing is your husband has had a very serious incident regarding your safety in the past.

 

Frankly, that isn't about you or him being "stupid / bad / whatever" that shows how very very dangerous it could be for you.

 

Hence I strongly strongly suggest not making it about you or he being "not smart or good or whatever" people but about accessing the resources to BEST SECURE your safety should a crisis arise.

 

Someone with an unpredictable history truly concerns me.

 

Shelters have dealt with people who have unpredictable histories since their inception.

 

I really hope that you access something beyond a therapist who doesn't seem to be taking these things seriously.

 

I also get that there's a lot of shame and guilt that comes attached to even a CRITICAL partner, much less one whose behaviour isn't predictable and that you have a fear of creating even more conflict with.

 

Its hard to know within the situation sometimes where your issues end and his begin.

 

I can really hear your pain in your posts. There's so much self- blame there. I've been there and I guarantee that the vast majority isn't worth it.

[sandylee1]

How are you doing CJA?

[nightmare01]

Personally I don't like to use the term "better" in relation to how my marriage is after my WW's LTA. She was a horrible and abusive person during that time. She has stopped being abusive and horrible, but she remains the same person she was - the same person that cheated on my for years and was ok with the lying and abuse.

 

The major post affair change was in me. I've become a stronger person, and my WW knows this. She knows down into her bones that should she cross the line I will toss her out without a second thought. I'd rather not have to do that of course, but if her actions dictate that I do it, it's done. She's danced close to the edge a couple of times, maybe to test where it was, but she backed off quickly when she saw what was about to happen.

 

So a better marriage after an affair? No. I don't believe that's possible - not in my case at least. A marriage can be DIFFERENT, but not better.

 

If affairs made marriages better then we should all be screwing around on each other - just imaging how great our marriages would be then.

[ladydesigner]

Personally I don't like to use the term "better" in relation to how my marriage is after my WW's LTA. She was a horrible and abusive person during that time. She has stopped being abusive and horrible, but she remains the same person she was - the same person that cheated on my for years and was ok with the lying and abuse.

 

The major post affair change was in me. I've become a stronger person, and my WW knows this. She knows down into her bones that should she cross the line I will toss her out without a second thought. I'd rather not have to do that of course, but if her actions dictate that I do it, it's done. She's danced close to the edge a couple of times, maybe to test where it was, but she backed off quickly when she saw what was about to happen.

 

So a better marriage after an affair? No. I don't believe that's possible - not in my case at least. A marriage can be DIFFERENT, but not better.

 

If affairs made marriages better then we should all be screwing around on each other - just imaging how great our marriages would be then.

 

Totally agree! I don't see how a M could be better after an A and if it is it is VERY rare.

[cja]

Thank you again for all the comments and advice. I'm back home after the holiday, and have still been wrestling with what to do. The idea of throwing ten years with my husband away is something that I literally cringe at the mere thought. I do love him and honestly I could get past and forgive his affair but I don't know if I can ever trust him to treat me as an equal worthy of respect. When he feels hurt or threatened, I feel like he throws all his consideration of my worth as a person in the gutter and feel justified in saying whatever he wants to me. We were recently talking about the fight we had that led to me again moving out of out house after only being back two months, and he said that the context (that he felt hurt) matters and some how makes berating your wife and slamming the door in her face less severe. But to me it doesn't, I explained that even though his affair, lying, cold way of leaving me (via a texted BS lie) hurt me I have never felt justified nor would I be in treating him that way in his own house what should be a safe place. He agreed but in pretty sure just to please me, I don't believe that he really feels that way. Anyway also while I was away he bought me a remote car starter and is doing other nice things for me, so I get confused about what to do. Also we talked about the gasoline incident and I think I truly felt like he is remorseful not simply sorry for himself (though there is still a lot of that too, he feels very sorry for the way his own image in his eyes has been tarnished). I don't know what to do but I do know I won't move back in again any time soon. And I'm starting to also question what would another go at it really do? He always talks the beautiful talk about breaking the cycle etc before we make up and yet ten years on the cycle continues, but maybe if I changed something about how I approach him, it would change? Or is this the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

[nightmare01]

cja.

 

You can't fix your husband. There is nothing you can do, or not do, that will stop him from cheating again. We are not responsible for some how "making" them cheat. And so we cannot be responsible for "making' them NOT cheat. Neither can we fix our WS, just as they can't fix us.

 

To keep the marriage going a few things need to happen.

 

FIRST the WS must work on themselves and work out how it was ok for them to cheat on the person they swore fidelity to. Once they have that "how" they can dissemble it and render it harmless. They can institute boundaries so they don't enter into inappropriate relationships with someone of the opposite sex.

 

SECOND the WS needs to willingly and enthusiastically open themselves, and all communication lines for their BS for inspection. This has to remain in effect forever. This will help build trust and show the BS that the WS is willing to make all the changes necessary to stay in the marriage.

 

THIRD the BS needs to work on themselves. In a sense we need to detach a little from our WS and the marriage. Remove any dependencies in their regard, and stand on our own. Be our own person first, then be a person who happens to be married. We need to see clearly that should our WS act out again that we will be fine and that our life will continue and that it will be good.

 

At a minimum, only when those three items are committed to and are ongoing, only then can you make a good decision whether you want to stay in the marriage.

 

I get where you are. I was there - a lot of us here have been in your shoes. It's hard to let go of 10 years with someone. The history, the entangled lives and finances, families.. it's very hard to give up on that. But to borrow a Dr. Phil-ism... What's worse than giving up on 10 years with someone? Giving up when it's 20 years.

 

Sometimes well meaning people try to push you toward making that decision right away. The truth is you can't make that decision until you are ready to make it. It's a huge decision. Life altering. And it should not be made as a knee jerk reaction.

 

If the affair is over - and you KNOW that it's over - but you don't know if you want to stay in the marriage, why not give yourself 6 months to a year to make that decision? That way you can see if the changes the WS swears they will make, are something more than just words. Take that time and watch your WS carefully. Is he meeting your minimum qualifications? Is the affair over? Is he in any communication with either the AP or someone else that is inappropriate? Is he working on himself to fix himself? Is he keeping lines of communication open? Has he stopped hiding things from you?

 

If those things happen, then maybe he is safe to stay with - otherwise... well you gave him a chance and he blew it.

 

While you're waiting I suggest you create a plan-b for yourself. Set money aside, get whatever ducks you need to have lined up such that you will be ready to push the divorce button if he acts out again.

[Krashi]

Totally agree! I don't see how a M could be better after an A and if it is it is VERY rare.

 

This is,IMO, a common lie propogated by sites or books selling reconcilliation products and advice for big $$.

Affairs are abuse. Would anyone suggest that a spuse beating her or his spouse could lead to a better marriage?

It is BS, sold to traumatized people desperate for hope. This propoganda is another form of abuse, giving false hope to suffering people.

I have read that one study showed that of the roughly 30% that remain together, 7% report being happy after staying. That means 2.1% report being happy in the relationship.

[cja]

Seriously, reread my posts and see where I think that a victim of domestic violence, coupled with the typical PTSD/trauma is a "POS."

 

Frankly, I spent years trying to work things out with my very damaged, by also very entitled, and AT THE TIME abusive husband.

 

I think affairs are often like drugs (or whatever else is adductive) and to a person with limited coping skills and an overall lack of empathy or foresight; it is easy for someone who lacks the skills of understanding their own feelings and the necessity of taking responsibility for them to "fall into the vortex."

 

That being said: I don't think you or your husband are POS.

 

HOWEVER: I know the damage inflicted from being on the receiving end of that behaviour and as much as t

You care for him; he may NEVER recognize his own culpability. As well, in the early years we had a therapist that enabled him (to this day I don't get why exactly, aside from the fact that he has a nice manner and had a poor childhood.) When I realized that it was really becoming a conduit for him to outright lie, disappear and be even worse without any progress or recourse and one session I went in personally she started screaming at me that I was going to lose my marriage unless I became used to the fact that "he was a sexual addict" and that meant accepting that he would be able, and should be able to cheat on me left and right, and I needed to figure out that being married was more important than the "standard I wanted to impose on him ." Like he never chose to say marriage vows either. Also that my feelings on the subject were only going to "shame him" and that I had already "let myself go" so expecting marital loyalty was naive anyway.

 

Also, the same man that she had yelled at my in marital session was "not really at all a full-blown addict with the issues surrounding that and that I was overreacting suggesting divorce and crying around him so much." Shifted (the NEXT SESSION) to how I'd "spent months in denial, he is clearly a very terribly afflicted addict and you are in total denial. That also makes you a completely inadequate parent. I clearly knew that he would 'never get any better and should've left a year ago.'" My testimony of events never changed. She literally went from one session telling me that he was a total victim and that he hasn't done anything that bad to the next session practically raging at me that somehow "I knew he was so terrible and would 'never ever' get better."

 

I let her go that day because that was just too nuts.

We went to her originally to address his potential sexual addiction. HE wanted past pornography, and she practically signed a permission slip for that AND BEYOND and regularly in session let me know that it was my fault that he was "driven to such lengths" even though I had no idea he was cheating for awhile and viewing porn with such regularity. I was accused of lots of totally ridiculous stuff like even trying to set him up to cheat so I could "punish him." Which was completely untrue. Truth is it completely blindsided me. I found that she constantly made me responsible for his bad actions and it didn't seem to track with my behaviour at all. At that point I was REALLY TRYING to reign-in every last tear, raise an infant daughter, run a business and cope with his frequent disappearing and cheating. I was in my mid-twenties and just devastated. She often accused me of just really weird crap. Like the "cheat and test and punish." It didn't fit me at all. I never put him in some deeply intolerable situation where he was "pushed to cheat." And I didn't "punish him" afterward. Frankly anytime I expressed a simple feeling about it or he found out I had PRIVATELY cried he would lose it. I found myself calling the Distress Center when he would be out just to talk to SOMEONE that I was "somewhat allowed" to talk to.

 

I found it incredibly imbalanced that she never once suggested protecting myself; frankly gave him stupid catchphrases that took years to stop hearing and recommended that we stop having any form of intimacy altogether until "we see what kind of traction of relationship has without being physically close including hugs and touching." That pretty much left shards of a marriage by the time it was done, and truthfully we had had issues going in, but nothing compared to the issues we had coming out of it. She was nothing short of a terrible, unethical counselor that even at one point breached my parent's confidentiality. (How's that for boundaries that they saw her too and I got to hear about their session?)

 

I don't believe in blaming the victim of a circumstance.

Often the victim feels confused and like they are getting kicked in the head.

 

It took years to break the cycle with my husband.

But once it broke, the chains were off.

I am willing to work through what happened and I still love my husband. I get what it is like to have really crap skills when it comes to emotions and relationships.

 

BUT I categorically WILL NOT ACCEPT any abusive behaviour from him. PERIOD. Nor anyone.

 

I won't be told that he can cheat or lie or insult me to my face or come home drunk. This is a 37 year-old man who wouldn't think twice about frying my arse over these things. Ironically enough, he would move quickly to protect our daughter against my poor parenting if that were the case.

 

I was able to shield my daughter from everything but him leaving and not letting her know at all. She doesn't know about him stepping out those years ago. Or the things he's called me. He was never allowed around her drunk. But he would go and she would ask where he was and I wouldn't cover for him. I would tell her, 'I don't know. Would you like yo call him and leave a message?' Often shed say no. She would get very mad about him just being gone. He would get mad that I wouldn't tell her some made-up excuse. Not my problem. My job was to reassure her that I would be there for her always, not paint a BS portrait of her Dad. I believe her confronting him on it (and myself as well) had a huge impact on his pattern of behaviour.

 

If he decides to disappear on us again, he better keep going. He has no place here anymore.

Same if he drinks, same if he cheats. That door only opens one way.

 

But there was absolutely no room for progress until that door became a one-way door. And he wanted to test it a few times too. Sure, go ahead. See what happens when you get on the other side if you are so inclined.

 

I decided years ago that I would no longer "negotiate with his demons" because they wouldn't settle for less than everything. So I won't let them in my house one little crack. And if he wishes to stay here, he better not invite them in either.

 

OP, you (and some of the other posters unfortunately) seem to want yo make this about you or he being a "bad /inadequate and/ or stupid person."

 

It's a strange men's for me to even think of viewing the situation through, regardless of the fact that it is common.

 

What I do see is a lack of empathy from him, a sense of entitlement and high-risk and inconsiderate behaviour.

 

I see from you, you devaluing yourself so as not to hurt him by leaving the relationship and feeling overly responsible for the current state of it. I would guess you feel VERY TRAPPED by all of this. You don't want to his issues and have a very rough time rejecting him because you see him as damaged or "just not understanding."

 

These things are behaviours. You can reject his crappy behaviours without crucifying him as a person. And frankly, I think you absolutely should. For yourself and him.

 

One of the ways I rebuilt my self-esteem was actually the 180. Once I started rejecting him blowing up at me, he got REALLY mad. But I didn't have to listen to it anymore either. I refused to take his rude messages / texts. I just ignored them.

 

Dreamingoftigers: That's a horrible experience with your therapist! Mine is not nearly that enabling. Can I ask when you say categorically do not allow abusive behavior, what does that exactly mean? How can I tell if something is abusive or if it is just both of us and I'm being unfair, unaccepting of my fair share of blame?

[velvette]

Thank you again for all the comments and advice. I'm back home after the holiday, and have still been wrestling with what to do. The idea of throwing ten years with my husband away is something that I literally cringe at the mere thought. I do love him and honestly I could get past and forgive his affair but I don't know if I can ever trust him to treat me as an equal worthy of respect. When he feels hurt or threatened, I feel like he throws all his consideration of my worth as a person in the gutter and feel justified in saying whatever he wants to me. We were recently talking about the fight we had that led to me again moving out of out house after only being back two months, and he said that the context (that he felt hurt) matters and some how makes berating your wife and slamming the door in her face less severe. But to me it doesn't, I explained that even though his affair, lying, cold way of leaving me (via a texted BS lie) hurt me I have never felt justified nor would I be in treating him that way in his own house what should be a safe place. He agreed but in pretty sure just to please me, I don't believe that he really feels that way. Anyway also while I was away he bought me a remote car starter and is doing other nice things for me, so I get confused about what to do. Also we talked about the gasoline incident and I think I truly felt like he is remorseful not simply sorry for himself (though there is still a lot of that too, he feels very sorry for the way his own image in his eyes has been tarnished). I don't know what to do but I do know I won't move back in again any time soon. And I'm starting to also question what would another go at it really do? He always talks the beautiful talk about breaking the cycle etc before we make up and yet ten years on the cycle continues, but maybe if I changed something about how I approach him, it would change? Or is this the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

 

 

What do you want your marriage to look like?

 

 

You cant change him; only he can change himself.

 

 

Demand that he finds a counselor who will help him accept and deal with the fact that he is abusive. Abuse like many other things is as much a habit as anything else. He can break the habit with the help of a counselor if he wants to, but that is the key. He must accept its wrong and want to.

 

 

If he is not willing to do that, there is not point in staying with him, because you will just be doing the same thing over and over again. If he could stop by himself, he would have already.

[66Charger]

Wow, You read about women staying with their abusers and the defending, but this is textbook. I am also surprised at how many recommend counseling and any kind of reconciliation. What am I missing?

 

OP. Do you even read what you write?

Edited December 3, 2015 by 66Charger

[dreamingoftigers]

Dreamingoftigers: That's a horrible experience with your therapist! Mine is not nearly that enabling. Can I ask when you say categorically do not allow abusive behavior, what does that exactly mean? How can I tell if something is abusive or if it is just both of us and I'm being unfair, unaccepting of my fair share of blame?

 

Honestly, I can't say it enough: The Verbally Abusive Relationship really defined and provided examples of abuse.

 

The only one I disagreed with was where the husband kept asking the studying wife is she was okay.

[oldshirt]

How can I tell if something is abusive or if it is just both of us and I'm being unfair, unaccepting of my fair share of blame?

 

If somebody purposefully does something to intentionally cause pain, injury, hurt feelings, humiliation, fear, duress etc etc it is abuse.

[velvette]

CJA

 

 

I think in your case, if it makes you feel bad or afraid, you can probably assume it is abuse.

 

 

Also, google "am I being abused" and you will get lists of examples of abuse.

 

 

Velvette

[cja]

I told my husband I want a divorce. I'm in a bit of shock I think. Dreamingoftigers I have ordered the book. I am having a hard time with guilt. I really feel, like in my chest a pain, that I should want to try harder to work on our relationship, but trying over the last almost a year now has just brought me pain. And I have tried. My husband seriously guilted me over "giving up so quickly". But that's not true. Then he kept saying he won't accept it, that we are divorcing. And that I've used him. But I've been very honest about being on the fence and not recommitted the whole time. I think he might be angry. He kept acting like my choice to proceed with a divorce was unfair and cruel, and I didn't even really want to have that conversation tonight but he kept asking if I would recommit to working on our relationship and I just couldn't. I've tried my best and I'm worse off and more hurt now than a year ago when he originally left. It's so scary though.

[ShatteredLady]

I purchased my first home when I was 18 years old. I figured charging rent to other students meant I gained equity & lived rent free!! At 20 years old I was in the trade press for my accomplishments. I was raised by a happily married couple. My Dad taught me to be self-sufficient & prioritized female independence all my life.

 

I chose to push my H to accept a job offer in the USA. I believed I was so strong that his happiness was worth sacrifices. I could manage any situation. My H is referred to as the most gentle, funny, kind, loving man by many. He's always suffered from depression but it was always self-deprecating....until it wasn't!

 

I was completely isolated when he had his first A. The affair was NOTHING compared to others. He's a Nice guy. He's Mr gentle, Mr Moral, Mr Wonderful. He can't be wrong. Guilt & embarrassment turn him into a MONSTER!! I realized that I was an abused woman too late. HONESTLY, I would be considered "Least likely to be abused!". Truly!! I was a career ball-buster! This is anonymous. People who really know me would NEVER believe my life story.

 

Let's be completely honest. I'm one of those women who couldn't start to comprehend why a woman would allow herself to be abused. REALLY! It's not the dark ages!! Just leave! we both know it's so much more complicated than that. You don't go from being 'You' to being weak & abused. It's slow. You make excuses, justifications. The world tells you that you're complicit in all this crap. Even this forum often states that people in 'Good Marriages' don't do these things! Bollocks!!!

 

Psychologically it's fascinating! I've learnt that it can happen, given the perfect storm, any person can become abused. I KNOW!!! I honestly didn't think that ANYONE could weaken me. I'm a woman to be reckoned with!! But little by little you change. Little by little it happens. One day you're in a store with your H & a complete stranger hands you a abused woman's rescue societies card....you throw it away because you're not THAT woman...but you are!

 

My H is the kindest, most gentle man. Everyone says that & he is....except when he's not! I remember who I was & I'm much better at giving advise than I am at taking it.

 

There are people who truly believe that this could NEVER happen to them. They're wrong!! Don't be ashamed. Don't make excuses. Just plan to do something about it!!! Don't fall into the trap of over analyzing it. There has to be a line. There MUST be. Your H has crossed it. Plan your escape. Don't think about him & feel sorry for him. Just have a plan....

[merrmeade]

I told my husband I want a divorce. I'm in a bit of shock I think. Dreamingoftigers I have ordered the book. I am having a hard time with guilt. I really feel, like in my chest a pain, that I should want to try harder to work on our relationship, but trying over the last almost a year now has just brought me pain. And I have tried. My husband seriously guilted me over "giving up so quickly". But that's not true. Then he kept saying he won't accept it, that we are divorcing. And that I've used him. But I've been very honest about being on the fence and not recommitted the whole time. I think he might be angry. He kept acting like my choice to proceed with a divorce was unfair and cruel, and I didn't even really want to have that conversation tonight but he kept asking if I would recommit to working on our relationship and I just couldn't. I've tried my best and I'm worse off and more hurt now than a year ago when he originally left. It's so scary though.

I think you are doing the right thing and am impressed and proud of you. You are giving a lot of abused women inspiration. I think you will look back and be shocked at who you were in the not too distant future.

 

As soon as you can, celebrate in a uniquely personal way. Do something your husband would never have allowed or enjoyed with you, something that you've missed doing because of him and that makes you feel alive and yourself. Dream about it when you can. Do it sooner than later if you can, so you won't be talked out of anything you started tonight.

 

you rock, cja!

[merrmeade]

I purchased my first home when I was 18 years old. I figured charging rent to other students meant I gained equity & lived rent free!! At 20 years old I was in the trade press for my accomplishments. I was raised by a happily married couple. My Dad taught me to be self-sufficient & prioritized female independence all my life.

 

I chose to push my H to accept a job offer in the USA. I believed I was so strong that his happiness was worth sacrifices. I could manage any situation. My H is referred to as the most gentle, funny, kind, loving man by many. He's always suffered from depression but it was always self-deprecating....until it wasn't!

 

I was completely isolated when he had his first A. The affair was NOTHING compared to others. He's a Nice guy. He's Mr gentle, Mr Moral, Mr Wonderful. He can't be wrong. Guilt & embarrassment turn him into a MONSTER!! I realized that I was an abused woman too late. HONESTLY, I would be considered "Least likely to be abused!". Truly!! I was a career ball-buster! This is anonymous. People who really know me would NEVER believe my life story.

 

Let's be completely honest. I'm one of those women who couldn't start to comprehend why a woman would allow herself to be abused. REALLY! It's not the dark ages!! Just leave! we both know it's so much more complicated than that. You don't go from being 'You' to being weak & abused. It's slow. You make excuses, justifications. The world tells you that you're complicit in all this crap. Even this forum often states that people in 'Good Marriages' don't do these things! Bollocks!!!

 

Psychologically it's fascinating! I've learnt that it can happen, given the perfect storm, any person can become abused. I KNOW!!! I honestly didn't think that ANYONE could weaken me. I'm a woman to be reckoned with!! But little by little you change. Little by little it happens. One day you're in a store with your H & a complete stranger hands you a abused woman's rescue societies card....you throw it away because you're not THAT woman...but you are!

 

My H is the kindest, most gentle man. Everyone says that & he is....except when he's not! I remember who I was & I'm much better at giving advise than I am at taking it.

 

There are people who truly believe that this could NEVER happen to them. They're wrong!! Don't be ashamed. Don't make excuses. Just plan to do something about it!!! Don't fall into the trap of over analyzing it. There has to be a line. There MUST be. Your H has crossed it. Plan your escape. Don't think about him & feel sorry for him. Just have a plan....

It can and does happen. I have a story with similar results but slightly different psychologies at play.

 

His whole life, my husband's greatest efforts were spent convincing the people he knew and cared about impressing that he was the most humble, self-sacrificing, clever, artistic, sensitive, spiritual, intellectual man they knew. Interestingly he didn't work to sway that many men of his supernatural powers, and there were more of them who mistrusted him than women. But there were plenty who considered him godlike; just that there were scads more women.

 

He was always closed and non-communicative with me. When we "discussed" (we never discussed) our problems, he always took a superior position and approached the conversation as something to gain or lose. He peppered our talks with rhetorical questions and never, ever stayed on the topic of my needs. He always turned things back to himself. Refusing sex because I was upset after one of these conversations was unacceptable and he would keep me up into the night until I gave in. He would always use derision and sarcasm to make his points, exaggeration and asides to dismiss my points. I never could believe that he would not want to make things better and so allowed myself to be gaslighted and blamed for problems. I always thought I could survive and make things better if I just tried harder to be more genuine and model unselfishness.

 

There were times that he was distant and kept strange hours, but I never doubted once that he was doing whatever he said. I would tell him occasionally that I thought he should be more sensitive to the fact that women were attracted to him. He acted like I'd insulted him. Our relationship was mostly parenting, but I always thought we had the intimacy of sexual monogamy to sustain us. Somehow that made our differences tolerable.

 

At one point, I got a fabulous job with the most humane, liberated group of people I've ever known and began to grow and discover my abilities and strengths as a professional and as a person. He remembers that period in our lives as a time when I pushed him away.

 

I didn't realize the extent of people's admiration until he became seriously ill while working on a project for a non-profit group abroad and would not come home for treatment until he finished. This project was him magnum opus and would be his most important legacy.

 

He'd wanted me to home school them in the 3rd world country where his project was, but I stayed here and kept working to keep our insurance and our kids in school. This made me a non-supportive wife in the eyes of people he worked with. When I visited him I was treated like a persona non grata by the group, especially the women, and realized something was wrong. I also saw that he'd alienated many of the men and, as was discovered later, the local people he was trying to help.

 

He came back and got treatment, but in the meantime his project fell apart. There had been a lot of political influence in the decisions about the project and it turned out that the local population resented the imposition and wanted the project ended and all remnants of it removed. My husband was devastated. His magnum opus was destroyed and he was held accountable publicly. He was also confronted by a couple of people regarding his affect and effort to garner admiration, especially from women.

 

The result of his public humiliation and my discovery of his life of betrayal (five affairs) forced him to admit to himself who he was — a liar, con-man and philanderer. He was unable to hold any false position as he would have in the past, blame anyone for his f-k ups or maintain pretense with me. He had a difficult time with divulgence and would lash out because of a lifetime of faking greatness, but it never lasted more than a day. He's still not normal and never will be, but he's a better man than I married. I just didn't know how bad the man I married was until now.

 

And as for me, I can't go back to being that trusting young mother who was cheated on or waste time vindicating her disgrace unknown to any but her abuser. But I AM still trying to discover and define the next stage of the better woman I could have been.

 

It's hard to come back after years of a certain reality only to find out it was something else. The first step is finding the missing pieces of your personal history and understanding why everyone did what they did. The next step is finding yourself again. Can't tell you how long that takes...

[Lois_Griffin]

Wow, You read about women staying with their abusers and the defending, but this is textbook. I am also surprised at how many recommend counseling and any kind of reconciliation. What am I missing?

 

OP. Do you even read what you write?

Agreed.

 

I'm not one to drink the Kool-Aid and blindly recommend reconciliation at all costs no matter HOW much you've been disrespected and emotionally abused. There isn't a man on this earth worth swallowing your pride and self-respect. And that old overused go-to about how everyone needs to spend their lives in therapy (including the family dog) to 'fix' everything is not the magic cure-all everyone thinks it is.

 

What you end up with sometimes is a 'new' marriage where the betrayed is constantly compromising their own values and self respect in order to hold onto someone who already proved they aren't worth it.

 

When you keep doing the same crap over and over and over and over and over and over, sooner or later you need to wake up and realize you're wasting your time, effort, and emotional space on someone who simply isn't worthy of you, OP. Spending $400 on an auto start for your car HARDLY makes up for years of emotional abuse, verbal abuse, cheating, lying and disrespect.

[66Charger]

I told my husband I want a divorce. I'm in a bit of shock I think. Dreamingoftigers I have ordered the book. I am having a hard time with guilt. I really feel, like in my chest a pain, that I should want to try harder to work on our relationship, but trying over the last almost a year now has just brought me pain. And I have tried. My husband seriously guilted me over "giving up so quickly". But that's not true. Then he kept saying he won't accept it, that we are divorcing. And that I've used him. But I've been very honest about being on the fence and not recommitted the whole time. I think he might be angry. He kept acting like my choice to proceed with a divorce was unfair and cruel, and I didn't even really want to have that conversation tonight but he kept asking if I would recommit to working on our relationship and I just couldn't. I've tried my best and I'm worse off and more hurt now than a year ago when he originally left. It's so scary though.

 

As someone who has witnessed DV, I know that the ending of a marriage normally is not a celebration, however, tonight I will have 2 beers and a toast to CJ. I hope you breathe better daily, and have the Happiest Holiday season possible.

Edited December 4, 2015 by 66Charger

[merrmeade]

I'm not one to drink the Kool-Aid and blindly recommend reconciliation at all costs no matter HOW much you've been disrespected and emotionally abused. There isn't a man on this earth worth swallowing your pride and self-respect. And that old overused go-to about how everyone needs to spend their lives in therapy (including the family dog) to 'fix' everything is not the magic cure-all everyone thinks it is.

 

What you end up with sometimes is a 'new' marriage where the betrayed is constantly compromising their own values and self respect in order to hold onto someone who already proved they aren't worth it.

 

When you keep doing the same crap over and over and over and over and over and over, sooner or later you need to wake up and realize you're wasting your time, effort, and emotional space on someone who simply isn't worthy of you, OP. Spending $400 on an auto start for your car HARDLY makes up for years of emotional abuse, verbal abuse, cheating, lying and disrespect.

And you need to realize that we did "wake up"; that's why we're freely sharing our stories. Most of what this says is redundant to what we were openly revealing about ourselves and, therefore, restating the obvious. Anyone can summarize salient points.

 

But each story can also offer solace to others in similar situations and, more important I hope, the vocabulary and description of their reality. Your approach feels judgmental and shaming and will only send them underground longer. Our whole point WAS that we WERE pushovers. I would not want someone to repeat my mistake. Therefore, I tell the story. So what's the point of saying you'd never make that mistake? forming a club? getting fans?

 

All of our stories brought out the extra layer of insidious, crippling psychological abuse from a cheating spouse lacking in empathy.

• cja's story seems (to me) to show sort of classic betrayal, abuse and entitlement repeated by a WS with the martyr complex of narcissist tendencies (or maybe that was SL's WH?). She realizes it's hopeless and is escaping.
  
• ShatteredLady showed (to me) how dysfunction and abuse can even sneak up on independent and successful individuals and become lodged in the relationship and day-to-day mindset of the BS. By sharing her story, she's clearly also showing that she's rising above that mindset.
  
• Dreamingoftigers showed how picking the wrong therapist can backfire, exacerbating the personality disorder that entitled the WS to cheat in the first place and placing the blame and responsibility for failure on the confused BS.
  
• In my story, I wanted to show some of the same issues but also that WSs with narcissist/martyr tendencies (with whom reconciliation is usually a waste of time or, worse, a repeat of the same abuse and disrespect for the BS) can change if they are flattened from natural consequences in public and private.

I expected slam dunk judgments which exaggerate and oversimplify the obvious like this, but I also expect there are many, many others who identify with the underlying human experience and do so with respect for, not only the suffering, but also the growth and strength of the individual posters freely opening up about their failures and choices.

Edited December 4, 2015 by merrmeade

[Try]

Dreamingoftigers: That's a horrible experience with your therapist! Mine is not nearly that enabling.

Actually your therapist is that enabling. I knew that you had an enabling therapist when you stated that "my therapist says that I contribute to the issues and that it is never just one person's fault". To see how enabling your therapist is, apply your therapist view that "it is never just one person's fault" to the 4th wife of a lifelong serial cheater, and you will see that according to your therapist's ridiculous logic the 4th wife would be partially to blame for the serial cheaters latest affair. The truth is that some people are to blame and some are not, and the serial cheater was going to cheat on the 4th wife no matter what, just like he cheated on the first 3 wives and will cheat on any future wives. You need to get a new therapist fast. Your current one is not putting you in a healthy place to deal with the fact that you have a defective spouse. You need a therapist that will help you understand that as a human no one is perfect, and that you not being perfect, does not give your spouse an excuse to blame you for their cheating.

 

Can I ask when you say categorically do not allow abusive behavior, what does that exactly mean? How can I tell if something is abusive or if it is just both of us and I'm being unfair, unaccepting of my fair share of blame?

Once you get a new therapist you will better know how to answer this question, and you will stop accepting your unfair share of the blame. Edited December 5, 2015 by Try

[cja]

Thank you merrmeade, SL, dreamingoftigers, velvette, 66charger, oldshirt, sandylee, and everyone on my thread. Really, truly I'm actually breathing just a little easier and though I'm terrified a bit still, I'm finally allowing a small sigh of relief and a bit of hope to shine through. Merrmeade, thank you so much for the post on the insidious, slow crawl of abuse and the complexity of the real stories behind every life that has been touched by it. I see such courage and vulnerability in your posts, it's thankfully contagious.

 

I am trying to move forward with the divorce process and taking sandylee advice on framing it as we are just not compatible so there's not a huge fight or anger. My husband is in desperation mode I think. He went from blaming me that I was using him but unwilling to give anything at all, to anger that I was giving up so quickly without trying, to now I was right and he promises to change and will never ever allow name calling or f yous again... Etc. I've told him that's wonderful and I hope he can adhere to that as we go through the divorce process. I hope we can be nice and friendly. I think he was hurt by this and he keeps saying he doesn't want a d and he'll prove himself etc.

 

Any advice as I navigate this process?

[Try]

I am trying to move forward with the divorce process and taking sandylee advice on framing it as we are just not compatible so there's not a huge fight or anger. My husband is in desperation mode I think. He went from blaming me that I was using him but unwilling to give anything at all, to anger that I was giving up so quickly without trying, to now I was right and he promises to change and will never ever allow name calling or f yous again... Etc. I've told him that's wonderful and I hope he can adhere to that as we go through the divorce process. I hope we can be nice and friendly. I think he was hurt by this and he keeps saying he doesn't want a d and he'll prove himself etc.

 

Any advice as I navigate this process?

Tell him that although you tried, you cannot get over the fact that he cheated on you and that he dumped you for his affair partner. Let him know that had he over the last year taken full responsibility for his affair and shown you heavy remorse, perhaps you may have been able to work through it with him, but that this ship has now sailed. Explain to him that the fact that the two of you are not compatible, made it easier for you to realize that moving on was the best solution to this. Do not argue with him. Do not try to convince him that you are right. You do not need him to agree with you for you to move on with your life free of him. You never agreed to him having an affair and dumping you for the other woman, you do not need him to agree with you moving on. Edited December 5, 2015 by Try

[cja]

Also specifically about that remote starter? I never asked him for one but I feel guilty both rejecting or accepting it. It makes me uncomfortable. Also he says he'll need my car for two days so we would have to switch cars and I believe the interactions would involve him trying to convince me that we are good together.

Edited December 5, 2015 by cja