The double standard continues to linger?

[TaraMaiden2]

Explained to me by my brother, back in his late 20's:

 

"Guys like to sleep around. It gives them experience, credibility and notoriety. They'll sleep with any girl who's willing and good between the sheets.

But marry one? I wouldn't marry any of the girls I've slept with, to be honest.....

What guys usually want is a virgin; one who has known no other guy - but not just any virgin.

They want one who is pure, chaste, totally enamoured of them, and who is confident, sexy, experienced and willing to try anything.

In other words, the impossible, double-standards-style."

 

He's now 62.

 

Life and experience tells me (judging by the types of threads posted [in the vast majority] by men, concerned about their partners' sexual past) that little, if anything has changed in the intervening 30+ years....

[Woggle]

If women want the double standard to go away they can reject [womanizers] and not consider them relationship material.

 

The issue with this is that it is has nothing to do with laws and they needed changing but you will never change how people feel in their heart of hearts. Most of men in their head have good reasons for these views. I perfectly understand why women feel the way they do but to the men themselves it makes perfect sense and it is a misguided sense of self protection and it is very very hard to get people to act in ways they believe are against their own interests. If you want to change their minds you need to find a way to convince men that having a partner with a high count works in their interests and betters their lives.

Edited January 6, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[thecrucible]

I'm the opposite. I would tell them the number.....if only to weed out the guys who would judge me for it.

 

I have not made my mind whether this is a good idea or not. My past means nothing to me now, except for the fact I have to explain it to other people and I will likely have to justify one action or another and this will just bring up painful memories. I've just had poor experiences from the very beginning with a guy I was in a relationship with who treated me quite badly. It made me very disillusioned with relationships and I didn't want anything long term for a while. I know for a fact that most men will not feel empathy for me for certain experiences I have had and understand why my life was the way it was. In reality, there are only a few encounters I could say I regret but people when they judge you make you regret things that you've never thought about regretting before. But yeah I agree, if someone is going to judge me for something I have no control over then that's on them. I know I am good person with a good heart.

[thecrucible]

If you want to change their minds you need to find a way to convince men that having a partner with a high count works in their interests and betters their lives.

 

Do you think people have an image in their head about what someone with a higher partner count would look like and what behaviours they exhibit?

 

I am kind of a shy and quiet person and I get people asking me sometimes whether I have ever had a boyfriend before when I have a high partner count compared to some other women my age and have had a couple of relationships lasting over a year. I find this really interesting that people perceive me a certain way based on a superficial impression of me. If anyone met me in person they would never think of me as [promiscuous] yet some people would judge me that way without having ever met me if I told them my number.

 

Do you think this is something it's better to mention later on when he knows more about who you are fundamentally so he has a chance to see who really are without anything affecting his judgement?

 

Sorry! long question.

Edited January 7, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Shining One]

Do you think people have an image in their head about what someone with a higher partner count would look like and what behaviours they exhibit?

Whenever I learn someone's partner count, I always ask for some context. The context has far more meaning to me than the actual number. Take these two women as examples:

• Woman 1: 30 partner count. She keeps falling for the same type of man who sleeps with her and then abandons her.
  
• Woman 2: 30 partner count. She really enjoys sex, but is very selective when it comes to relationships. Thus, she has infrequent long-term partners but a decent number of short-term partners.
  

I would judge Woman 2 as more compatible with me than the first woman.

Do you think this is something it's better to mention later on when he knows more about who you are fundamentally so he has a chance to see who really are without anything affecting his judgement?

I would recommend sharing it earlier rather than later. If he's going to judge you negatively for this, it's best to get that out of the way earlier in the relationship.

[big dog]

men that would laugh at you for for not being so promiscuous have something wrong with them for sure. Steer clear. Be what you are and don't be pushed or guilted into anything. The double standard is still here. It probably always will be. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus you know. There are certain things that are programmed in men that I for one believe will probably never change.

[Emilia]

There are lots of double standards in life. You can screen out stuck-in-a-mud and insecure men by paying on a couple of dates, test him how easy going he is by finding out how traditional his views are on women. Different values, move on. It has worked for me. None of them knew my number and I didn't know theirs though we discussed sex with others in general terms without specifics. I screen out men early on who view women as assets, it's not rocket science

[thefooloftheyear]

It exists because in the context of sex and getting it, the dynamics are totally different between men and women....

 

It takes almost zero effort for women to find a willing guy to have sex with,,,,Some of the least desirable butt ugly and overweight women have partner counts in the triple digits...If they desire to..

 

For guys its totally a different story....There are legions of honest, solid, trustworthy, nice, loyal, etc, men, that cant get a whiff of sex....It might be as simple as he has a tiny dick, is too short, too fat, too broke, too whatever...They can want all they want....its not happening..or its enormously hard..

 

So then it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why there is a "high" value placed on the guy that has had many partners and pretty much "no" value to a woman who has had many partners...

 

Now, that's not to say that a woman that has had a lot of partners is worthless, no more than its wrong to say the guy that hasn't had any is undesirable...

 

But because of this dynamic, that's why things are what they are...

 

If women with high counts don't like it, well, then just start banging all those doofus losers and then maybe things will balance out to your liking....

 

TFY

[RedRobin]

If women want the double standard to go away they can reject [womanizers] and not consider them relationship material.

 

The issue with this is that it is has nothing to do with laws and they needed changing but you will never change how people feel in their heart of hearts. Most of men in their head have good reasons for these views. I perfectly understand why women feel the way they do but to the men themselves it makes perfect sense and it is a misguided sense of self protection and it is very very hard to get people to act in ways they believe are against their own interests. If you want to change their minds you need to find a way to convince men that having a partner with a high count works in their interests and betters their lives.

 

I am very happy to reject womanizers. Unfortunately, too many so called decent men cover for these guys and keep them in their social circle...

 

I don't blame most women. Most women wouldn't touch a womanizer with a ten foot pole. I blame the people who cover for those men. Making excuses for a womanizer is covering for them. You don't like cheaters, because cheating has affected you.. It's too bad you can't extend that empathy to others... And instead just make excuses for their behavior.

 

Any person who fails to give me the truth about an individual, when asked, is no longer MY friend. I have my ways of finding the truth... But damn... It truly sucks that people you consider your friends won't fill you in.

[RedRobin]

Exactly. This double standard is perpetuated by both genders, as are most of the others really.

 

 

 

Very true. My experience has been the opposite, that women who have not slept around have been far better relationship partners in pretty much every aspect. More loyal, more affectionate, and typically come packaged with far fewer issues.

 

I would say the same for men who have not slept around. They generally are seeking compatibility, they don't date for sport, and they seek and enjoy intimacy.

 

That said, I have to work very hard to 'out' the poseurs. Very hard. It's like a secret society you guys have. Young or old... You all cover for each other. I've had to learn to read between the lines. The people who tell me straight out what the real deal is about a guy? They are like gold. A rare gem. Those are the people I keep as friends. The rest? Discard.

 

Edited: for the record, I consider even one date with a known womanizer is too much. I want zero to do with those guys and zero with doing anything that even leaves the appearance that he has any association with me. I do my best to to my homework before going on date one with those guys... A task made much more difficult by the people around him or me. Once upon a time, we could rely on social networks to fill in the blanks. Not so much anymore.

Edited January 10, 2016 by RedRobin

[Woggle]

If most women wouldn't touch a womanizer then they couldn't be a womanizer. It's like saying nobody goes somewhere because it is too crowded.

 

I am not friends with cheaters and men who lie to women but most men I know who sleep around are upfront and honest about it and the women still go for it. Many times the women want casual as well. As long as everybody is honest then I see no problem. I would never call a woman a misandrist for not wanting to marry a guy like this though the way guys are sometimes called misogynists for not wanting to marry women who sleep around. These guys are not marriage material and they would be the first to tell you that.

[RedRobin]

Unfortunately, most of those guys can't get a woman to give them the time of day. Or else they would get laid more, and then you would start to dislike them immensely.

 

Baloney. Those men have standards and are relationship oriented. It's the only kind of man I will date. Anyone can and anyone does 'get laid' these days... Just not with the people they prefer. I refuse to let those guys ladder climb on my time.

 

Plenty of womanizers have tried to pose as decent men to me (with lots of help from their a hole friends), but I'm not buying it.

 

As they say... Birds of a feather flock together. The disengenuous, dishonest, and just plain users...

 

Just this week... Someone recommended a realtor to me to try and sell my house in NY. Turns out, he's good friends with a known womanizer and I'd even say... A sociopath. Guess what? No way in hell I will patronize that realtor. If he's friends with the sociopath, he's probably a user and liar too.

 

Mind the company you keep.

[RedRobin]

If most women wouldn't touch a womanizer then they couldn't be a womanizer. It's like saying nobody goes somewhere because it is too crowded.

 

I am not friends with cheaters and men who lie to women but most men I know who sleep around are upfront and honest about it and the women still go for it. Many times the women want casual as well. As long as everybody is honest then I see no problem. I would never call a woman a misandrist for not wanting to marry a guy like this though the way guys are sometimes called misogynists for not wanting to marry women who sleep around. These guys are not marriage material and they would be the first to tell you that.

 

Right... That's what they all say. Do you know the women? Have they vouched for his story? I doubt it.

 

I've had guys tell me the same BS. When I do my own homework, the story isn't that.

 

I've seen how they operate. They work really hard to avoid women in their sights (past or present) from chatting. You know what I say? Good people in any sphere of life come with references. If they are afraid of me meeting the ex or swimming in her circle, the feelers go up for me.

Edited January 11, 2016 by RedRobin

[Woggle]

Right... That's what they all say. Do you know the women? Have they vouched for his story? I doubt it.

 

I've had guys tell me the same BS. When I do my own homework, the story isn't that.

 

I've seen how they operate. They work really hard to avoid women in their sights (past or present) from chatting. You know what I say? Good people in any sphere of life come with references. If they are afraid of me meeting the ex or swimming in her circle, the feelers go up for me.

 

I have known some of the women and they are doing the same thing the guys do. Everybody seems to know the score.

[RedRobin]

I have known some of the women and they are doing the same thing the guys do. Everybody seems to know the score.

It's easy to have that appearance.

 

I've had the chance to actually talk to some of the exes of womanizers who tried to date me. Call it a gift... But I think with the exception of one woman... These women were shocked to hear that a) the guy they were living with was trying to date me b) a guy they thought was their BF considered them a FWB.

 

I've seen it enough here on LS to know it's usually the guy who is the source of BS... Not the woman. And those guys do a whole hell of a lot of tap dancing. They wouldn't be able to convince most women to sleep with them if they didn't at least pretend to be looking for a relationship. It's only after the fact that they find a way to segue into something casual. I think it is very rare for things to start out casual on both sides.

[joystickd]

It's easy to have that appearance.

 

I've had the chance to actually talk to some of the exes of womanizers who tried to date me. Call it a gift... But I think with the exception of one woman... These women were shocked to hear that a) the guy they were living with was trying to date me b) a guy they thought was their BF considered them a FWB.

 

I've seen it enough here on LS to know it's usually the guy who is the source of BS... Not the woman. And those guys do a whole hell of a lot of tap dancing. They wouldn't be able to convince most women to sleep with them if they didn't at least pretend to be looking for a relationship. It's only after the fact that they find a way to segue into something casual. I think it is very rare for things to start out casual on both sides.

 

Women do a lot of tap dancing too. If you base it off of what you see on here then you are not getting the whole picture

[sandylee1]

There always has and always will be a double standard in this area. Women are viewed as being the more innocent, purer gender.... so when they have a high number they are given unkind labels and with guys.. well he's just a ladies man or a player or a philanderer.

 

I believe that's what pushes them not to forthright with this. It's like men want the superb homemaker and a kama sutra expert in the sack... that experience has to come from somewhere.

 

I just get used to it and tell my daughters to bear this double standard in mind as they grow up.

[RedRobin]

I think you will believe whatever you want to believe. Men don't need to go around promising the world to women in order to get laid. When I was single, I never even bothered to try and get laid, women were the ones pressing the issue.

 

For the most part, if a woman is interested, she isn't waiting around for promises of relationships and the like, she is just as interested in having sex as the guy is, sometimes more. They tend to take issue after the fact, when the guy realizes for whatever reason he just isn't into her.

 

Take issue? I don't think most adults 'take issue' with someone not being into them. That's dating.

 

What people 'take issue' with is stringing and using. If a guy isnt into a woman for whatever reason, then stop seeing them and find another. Don't keep effing them and let them think they like them...or in my case... Don't keep dating me and trying to sleep with me. That's no different than women who let men, maybe multiple men, buy them stuff and take them out on his dime when she isn't interested.

 

The fact that men are encouraged to be liars and users is the problem. It says something very negative about men in general that they are not expected to have any integrity when it comes to sex and relationships and can't control their urges. It's like all of society has collectively chosen to infantalize men.

 

the double standard will end when men are held accountable for their behavior (as all grown ups should be)... And not given cover by their friends, family, etc.

[stillafool]

 

Very true. My experience has been the opposite, that women who have not slept around have been far better relationship partners in pretty much every aspect. More loyal, more affectionate, and typically come packaged with far fewer issues.

 

^^^^^This, has also been my exact experience with men.

[joystickd]

Take issue? I don't think most adults 'take issue' with someone not being into them. That's dating.

 

What people 'take issue' with is stringing and using. If a guy isnt into a woman for whatever reason, then stop seeing them and find another. Don't keep effing them and let them think they like them...or in my case... Don't keep dating me and trying to sleep with me. That's no different than women who let men, maybe multiple men, buy them stuff and take them out on his dime when she isn't interested.

 

The fact that men are encouraged to be liars and users is the problem. It says something very negative about men in general that they are not expected to have any integrity when it comes to sex and relationships and can't control their urges. It's like all of society has collectively chosen to infantalize men.

 

the double standard will end when men are held accountable for their behavior (as all grown ups should be)... And not given cover by their friends, family, etc.

 

There are held accountable but the problem is women a lot of times will accept anything. A man can't be held accountable for their behavior if women accept it. You can't get up here and fuss about men until you get after the women that enable the behavior

[joystickd]

I am very happy to reject womanizers. Unfortunately, too many so called decent men cover for these guys and keep them in their social circle...

 

I don't blame most women. Most women wouldn't touch a womanizer with a ten foot pole. I blame the people who cover for those men. Making excuses for a womanizer is covering for them. You don't like cheaters, because cheating has affected you.. It's too bad you can't extend that empathy to others... And instead just make excuses for their behavior.

 

Any person who fails to give me the truth about an individual, when asked, is no longer MY friend. I have my ways of finding the truth... But damn... It truly sucks that people you consider your friends won't fill you in.

 

Women cover for the bad behavior of their friends but that's not an issue for me as a man to blame women. I blame the men for accepting the bad behavior. If your standards are like that then maybe you should have high standards when having friends too.

[joystickd]

Baloney. Those men have standards and are relationship oriented. It's the only kind of man I will date. Anyone can and anyone does 'get laid' these days... Just not with the people they prefer. I refuse to let those guys ladder climb on my time.

 

Plenty of womanizers have tried to pose as decent men to me (with lots of help from their a hole friends), but I'm not buying it.

 

As they say... Birds of a feather flock together. The disengenuous, dishonest, and just plain users...

 

Just this week... Someone recommended a realtor to me to try and sell my house in NY. Turns out, he's good friends with a known womanizer and I'd even say... A sociopath. Guess what? No way in hell I will patronize that realtor. If he's friends with the sociopath, he's probably a user and liar too.

 

Mind the company you keep.

Sounds like you just have man issues that really need to be handled by therapy.

[lino]

So I was talking to someone who said a woman who has only slept with a small number of men and is in her thirties is good. It is good for a good woman to sleep with only a handful of men.

 

Seems like he couldn't give a reason why I said " why not men?" " men are different" he said " men are like animals"

 

I hate this double standard and yet in the year 2016 it still exists.

 

I have actually been laughed at by some men for only sleeping with a small number being called " inexperienced, bad in bed and proof of my undesirability". According to some guys, some men prefer woman who have slept with lots of men so that they are proof that they have "lived" and they have been "pre-approved".

 

Yet overall I think there is a double standards when it comes to woman and men when it comes to sex and relationships?

 

My question is why does it exist and how can we change it?

 

This will change once women stop flocking to men with massive amounts of notches on their bed posts. Kind of an oxymoron and wishful thinking though

 

No guy is ever going to be proud of being number 51.

[cja]

This will change once women stop flocking to men with massive amounts of notches on their bed posts. Kind of an oxymoron and wishful thinking though

 

No guy is ever going to be proud of being number 51.

 

 

Wow again, blaming women for being used by men?? Seriously this thread and similar ones keep going back to blaming women. The question, I believe was "Why is there still a double standard in judging women's 'numbers' and men's 'numbers, and how this can change?". Right, and redirecting the argument to "well women should not sleep with men who sleep with a lot of women", that is a totally DIFFERENT argument and unrelated to the differentiation in judgment. It's a straw man.

 

I think the why is rooted in history and biology but it's persistence, that's rooted more in denial, interrelated sets of double standard and an inability to openly talk about this issue without it denigrating into unproductive heated arguments.

 

Of course, there is still a double standard for men and women when it comes to sexuality. I think admitting this without quibbling over details would help us as a society move on from it. Then again so would eliminating heated rhetoric not necessarily here on LS but culturally i.e. the idea of a “War on Women”. War by it's very nature has a winner and loser. It's adversarial and therefore again in my view unhelpful in pushing beyond the limitations of both female AND male double standards. I mean if that the goal, and for many globally it's not at all. As a woman who has worked abroad, I am so grateful to be born in s "western" culture. At least once I figure **** out, I have options.

 

Let’s try taking an inclusive approach, I think bringing men and women together is the only real way to induce change.

 

I think women do and have historically suffered due to the double standard and though it can be tempting to give way to ‘moral indignation’ over injustice etc, I prefer to take the view of Erich Fromm: “There is perhaps no phenomenon which contains so much destructive feeling as ‘moral indignation,’ it permits envy or hate to be acted out under the guise of virtue.”

 

Many men I think, demonstrated just from LS conversations, also dislike the double standard and patriarchy, which is really just a thinly veiled attack on female sex and autonomy, in my opinion.

 

here’s the flip side: it is generally taken as self-evident that men use women all the time for sex, and then think them "sl()s" or "wh()res", but human nature being what it is, women use men too, only they use men for money and material comforts, and then think them fools and weak. It's classic cognitive dissonance: like a person convincing another to steal for him/ her and then harshly judging that "thief" while enjoying the stolen goods. It's complicity without the guilt.

 

Men make themselves feel better about exploiting women by looking down on them as dirty slu8s who deserve to be literally screwed and degraded; while women make themselves feel better about using men for money by looking down on them as fools who deserve to be materially screwed and degraded. It's the same tune just different lyrics: and I hate the tune regardless of the lyrics.

 

Women do routinely use and exploit men. We see it on TV and in movies all the time: women proclaiming they are going to take men to the proverbial cleaners or that they are ‘owed’ something upon departure from marriage, even when they chose to do the leaving. I believe this entitlement mentality has biological roots and females are innately hardwired to have a predisposition to use males for status, protection, and material gain where as males are innately hardwired to use females for sex, passing on their genes and care giving. Biology aside part of being human is the ability to choose how you want to live and to choose not to use and exploit other people.

Edited January 12, 2016 by cja

[Rejected Rosebud]

I am very happy to reject womanizers. Unfortunately, too many so called decent men cover for these guys and keep them in their social circle...

 

Do you really think that for a guy to be legitimately decent he should reject "womanizers" from his social circle??