Islam....

[Pocky]

Originally posted by melina

I really find EVERYONE naive who has been brought up in that little village in Tennessee or wherever and is now trying to convince me about Buddhism (just like Richard Gere, Madonna or Posh Spice with her Kabbalah band).

 

I really don't think you're in a position to be so pompous - even if daddy was an ambassador and you've lived all over the world.

 

While I agree that you can learn about a religion by viewing the culture that practices it, without studying it yourself, all you'll see is the surface and like anything you view from afar you may have a distorted image. Since you're so into touting your experience in life, it may be helpful for you to understand that some of the people you're debating religion with have been studying it for years - in and out of institutions.

 

Regardless, you've done a nice job of poorly presenting yourself. Daddy must be proud.

[blind_otter]

 

Make me barf.

 

I hate people who proselytize and try to shove ANY belief down my throat. Relgions is a personal thing. The one thing that turned me away from Christians (not the teachings of Christ, mind you, but Christian PEOPLE) - is that many are constantly prancing around saying they are better than everyone else.

 

Siddhartha said, believe because you understand from your own experience what you know to be true. Wow, that seems like a better way to approach things.

 

Ok, I'm done. I'm not going to blather on about my personal beliefs and insist that everyone think the same way.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by melina

Sarah, have a look around. It never does any damage! Just realize that Bosnia is a very different place. There is a lot of Machoism, Sexism etc. I am 100% convinced that your boyfriend and his family are different. Still doesn't change the fact that their relatives etc. are very very different from you.

 

Oh racial and cultural purity! Waitasecond. Didn't Hitler preach that? :smirk:

 

PS - my mother is from Vietname and my Father is American and they've been married over 35 years. Ohhhh, her family is SO different from his. But they accept and love their differences. Jeez. You mighta had an ambassador daddy but obviously that taught you nothing about accepting and enjoying the novelty of cultural differences.

[BlockHead]

RecordProducer

For Muslims the religion comes before everything else, before their families, children, before themselves.

The same is true for Christianity.

alphamale

There are a few Islamic nations who have already had female Presidents or Prime Ministers whereas some western powers (U.S.) have never even had a female head of state.

Irrelevant.

In terms of corruption, affirmative action is almost as bad as nepotism.

alphamale

It is in actuality no more or no less violent than any other religious dogma.

Hmmmm. Al-Qaeda vs. the Catholic Church. Tough choice.

melina

Sarah, I'm catholic as well. Why don't you start reading up on Judaism a bit more. Try to understand who Jesus really was. In the end he was a very serious rabbi, just like a rabbi you would find today praying at the Western Wall in Jerusalem.

I heard that some of the people at the wailing wall are paid to pray. I also heard that the practice of praying to the wall is just a ruse by Conservative Jews

Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis

'I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about

Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be

God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort

of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a

level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You

must make your choice. Either this man was, and is the Son of God: or else a madman or

something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon;

or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising

nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not

intend to.'

- page 52

blind_otter

I myself have been an avid researcher on Buddhism and other nonviolent asian religions, but I like the personal aspect of researching and asking qualified individuals to edify me rather than laypeople on a message board who are (for the most part) pretty dern biased.

I usually look for sources and citations. Only a fool would rely on proclamations of intellectual superiority.

blind_otter

And there are many Christians that kill because they claim that they have been instructed to do so and that they are doing God's will.

It almost sounds like a Jihad. Can you provide examples?

I remember hearing that some prominant Islamic leader declared Jihad against the author of the satanic bible.

alphamale

Correct POCKY, the Holocaust in WWII was basically Christians masacaring Jews and other "undesirables". It was, however, cloaked under the secular flag of Nazism so it did not look like religous persecution.

Is that why the Nazis closed the Churches when they wanted to punish the rebels?

Pocky

You stated there aren't any violent commands by your God to go out and kill anyone, but if you read the Old Testament there are and you can't just erase them by inserting JC in there. Your religion, Christianity, does have in its Bible, specific instructions to wage violence against others. I'm not making it up - I just spent a semester in college studying the Old Testament. And I believe I've pointed this out in other threads.

You either provide the citations or you don't.

Mat 5:38-42

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

blind_otter

Step off the freaking soap boxes!

There is so much groupthink. I know certain sources inspire people to use certain cliches more often. Where do you get this stuff? Does anybody want to 'opine'?

Pocky

My point, however, is that while Christianity focuses on the New Testament, the Old Testament obviously still has its place in the religion or it would have been completely removed when JC came along.

It all has to do with Paul's teachings aka Salvation by Faith.

 

Sarah12385

i've known them for about a year now, and i've never been welcomed into a home so much before in my life. i have so much respect for them, their religion *is* an important part of their life, on the top of their list, but family and children and health/happiness seems to be right up there with it.

I get the feeling they are from a small village.

If you've ever been to a village, you would know that everybody knows everybody. Nobody locks their doors. People usually visit without warning and walk in without knocking. They tend to be very religious and very superstitious.

Village people are a different breed.

 

I wonder how the war affected Bosnia. I know Al-Qaeda made some inroads by sending money, weapons, and fighters during the war.

Chris777

If you actually compare Martin Luther King, to the bible, it really doesn't matter what good "works" he presumably has done. If he were in fact a "genuine" true christian, would you not expect, him to be more associated with the promotion, of Jesus Christ , rather than some temporary so called rights?

I think he would have disagreed. Do you think he would sacrifice his life for notoriety?

Chris777

this country has only existed for some 200 years, any so called moral changes be it womens lib, or the color of ones skin are temporary at best.

Are they morals or are they fads?

Chris777

I say this not to insite anger, but because it is true. Every nation in the history of the globe has fallen, and any so called moral, or scientific , advancement, has fallen with them.

Christianity and Judiasm survived the fall of Rome, and many wars.

melina

Some people feel they are so special from everyone else but they're not!

I know how they like to treat outsiders.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by BlockHead

It almost sounds like a Jihad. Can you provide examples?

 

doo dooo doo dooo. Crusades?

[BlockHead]

blind_otter

doo dooo doo dooo. Crusades?

doo dooo doo dooo. Jihad against Christians in the Holy Land 400 years earlier.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by BlockHead

doo dooo doo dooo. Jihad against Christians in the Holy Land 400 years earlier.

 

Well duh. But you asked for an example when Christians ordered people to be killed. I was just giving an example. You didn't ask for the justification of the example that you asked for.

[BlockHead]

blind_otter

Jihad is institutionalized.

[melina]

I hate to get personal, but I have personally gotten attacked on this thread.

 

Blind otter: don't lecture me on different culture/nation marriages. Please. Your parents (mummy vietnamese) have been married for 35 years. They have come to appreciate each other's differencies..... blah blah

 

Could just be that your vietnamese mummy was and is dependent on the dollars (wouldn't be the first time in the Asian / American dating environment).

 

Anyway, I don't mean what I just said. But please don't get personal about me not having learned anything from living in different places and my dad being an ambassador.

 

If I ever have a daughter and she will come home telling me she's in love with a Bosnian; i'll tell her my bit or two about what I know about the country. Doesn't mean I'm rassist; it just means that the way I will bring up my daughter (religion wise, language wise etc). there will sure be friction with a Bosnian from a Bosnian village with Bosnian beliefs etc.

 

And the Bosnian boy's father will have the exact same concerns about my daughter! Just if the Bosnian father has concerns it won't be considered racism but pride or whatever!

 

Wake up! Don't confuse tolerance with stupidity!

 

And yes, thank you for bringing up the German chap with the moustache in connection with my posts. If you had read my earlier post you would have seen that I stated: " please don't bring up that chap with moustache upon me being wary about mixed marriages".

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by melina

I hate to get personal, but I have personally gotten attacked on this thread.

 

Blind otter: don't lecture me on different culture/nation marriages. Please. Your parents (mummy vietnamese) have been married for 35 years. They have come to appreciate each other's differencies..... blah blah

 

Could just be that your vietnamese mummy was and is dependent on the dollars (wouldn't be the first time in the Asian / American dating environment).

 

Anyway, I don't mean what I just said. But please don't get personal about me not having learned anything from living in different places and my dad being an ambassador.

 

If I ever have a daughter and she will come home telling me she's in love with a Bosnian; i'll tell her my bit or two about what I know about the country. Doesn't mean I'm rassist; it just means that the way I will bring up my daughter (religion wise, language wise etc). there will sure be friction with a Bosnian from a Bosnian village with Bosnian beliefs etc.

 

And the Bosnian boy's father will have the exact same concerns about my daughter! Just if the Bosnian father has concerns it won't be considered racism but pride or whatever!

 

Wake up! Don't confuse tolerance with stupidity!

 

And yes, thank you for bringing up the German chap with the moustache in connection with my posts. If you had read my earlier post you would have seen that I stated: " please don't bring up that chap with moustache upon me being wary about mixed marriages".

 

Good job. Still looks ignorant to me.

 

Oh, and if anyone said to my face what you wrote just now, about my mother and father, I would slap them.

[moimeme]

Christians (not the teachings of Christ, mind you, but Christian PEOPLE) - is that many are constantly prancing around saying they are better than everyone else.

 

AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

 

It's the FUNDAMENTALISTS who do that. Damnit.

[HokeyReligions]

Sarah12385, have you considered Agnosticism? Because, whew! People get passionate and rude when it comes to discussing religions! So much so that some of you are now throwing insults at each other (and their parents!) as though you actually know anything about each other beyond a few written words!

 

Is this what religion does to people?

[moimeme]

Hokey, it's bogus to blame 'religion' for this. You could just as easily say 'is that what being Texan is?'. There are ignorant people of every religious stripe and agnostics and atheists are not immune.

[Chris777]

Originally posted by BlockHead

I think he would have disagreed. Do you think he would sacrifice his life for notoriety?

being assasinated is not sacrificing your life. That is an arguement the mormons make about Joseph Smith, and he was an outright false prophet.

the point i was trying to make is martin luther king followed the teachings of Ghandi in order to achieve goals that while appearing noble, and just, will end up being temporary, as the entire globe and everything in and of it, will eventually be destroyed (after all the bad stuff to come occurs) so that his pursuit of equality through anarchy was pointless, other than giving others a bad example of how to accomplish their own personal goals. If one believes the Bible then how can anarchy(lawlessness)be defined as something God has commanded us to do.

this world is in a fallen and corrupted state no man can repair that, only God can.

that was my point

 

Are they morals or are they fads?

I was speaking of the contributions stemming from the nations such as rome, and running water for example.

Again the world is in a fallen state, slavery still exist, racism, sexism, and a whole plethora of sins exist. we can speak against them, and call them what they are(sin) but to focus our lives on trying to change them, is pointless.

People are corrupted, to our very core, and trying to change a societal behavior or norm, will at best create the same attitude that so many of the posters in these and other forums, much less real life, perpetrate, that some people, be it those claiming to be christians, jews, muslims, or whatever are hypocrites, in that they speak on things, yet become elietist.

Remember as christians we are in fact the property of Christ, we are posessions, and yes we are slaves, but I personally would rather be a slave to Christ, who created the world, before we caused its coruption, than to the world we (with a big nudge from satan)are creating.

Christmas and Easter are pagan bastardizations of events that occured, that we are never told to follow in the Bible.

they are cute and appealing, but look at their roots, they are not of God. and therefore the Fads I spoke of incoporated into the truth puffing it up like yeast.

 

Christianity and Judiasm survived the fall of Rome, and many wars.

As they are the only 2 Religions founded in truth

and again they are not of the nathions, but of God

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by moimeme

AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

 

It's the FUNDAMENTALISTS who do that. Damnit.

 

unwad your panties. I said "MANY".

 

And I live in the South, where you may as well say "fundamentalist" when you say "christian". Gawd. Get angry about something worth getting angry about. You're the one who randomly insults people and then says "it's just words in cyberspace"

[alphamale]

Originally posted by HokeyReligions

Is this what religion does to people?

Basically yes, HOKEY....there are already so many ways to differentiate people such as socio-economic, race, culture, nationality, etc.... and now we add in religion too.

 

Personally I believe that religion is good for the individual (if practices correctly which it rarely is) but very bad for the human race as a whole cause it sets people against each other.

 

And another thing....whatever good things relgions have done in the past have been exactly cancelled out by the bad things religions have done. So the net effect of all religions on mankind is zero.

[lindya]

Personally I believe that religion is good for the individual (if practices correctly which it rarely is) but very bad for the human race as a whole cause it sets people against each other.

 

Brings to mind an example I read where two monks had the following extremely brief conversation. It's maybe well known to those who are knowledgeable about Buddhism. I'm not, but it did appeal to me.

 

Young monk "Why do you bow to Buddha? I spit on your Buddha!"

Old monk "You may choose to spit on him. I choose to bow to him."

[BlockHead]

blind_otter

The one thing that turned me away from Christians (not the teachings of Christ, mind you, but Christian PEOPLE) - is that many are constantly prancing around saying they are better than everyone else.

So you like to make vague generalizations.

There seem to be plenty of Christians in this forum. Do you think you can find some examples of them "prancing around saying they are better than everyone else"? It shouldn't be too hard since "many are constantly prancing around".

 

Pocky said that "there are many Christians that kill because they claim that they have been instructed to do so" in present tense and you cited an event that occured 1000 years ago. Do you have some modern day examples? Since "there are many Christians that kill", both of you shouldn't have trouble finding some examples.

Chris777

being assasinated is not sacrificing your life. That is an arguement the mormons make about Joseph Smith, and he was an outright false prophet.

So you don't think Martin Luther King was risking his life by being one of the leaders in the Civil Rights movement.

Joseph Smith died in a shootout after trying to marry an already married women. She was supposed to be wife #20 or #21.

Chris777

Again the world is in a fallen state, slavery still exist, racism, sexism, and a whole plethora of sins exist. we can speak against them, and call them what they are(sin) but to focus our lives on trying to change them, is pointless.

Wow. You are arguing in support of laziness.

Chris777

People are corrupted, to our very core, and trying to change a societal behavior or norm, will at best create the same attitude that so many of the posters in these and other forums, much less real life, perpetrate, that some people, be it those claiming to be christians, jews, muslims, or whatever are hypocrites, in that they speak on things, yet become elietist.

This sentence doesn't make sense.

Chris777

Christmas and Easter are pagan bastardizations of events that occured, that we are never told to follow in the Bible.

The timing of the events are irrelevant. The events are a tradition like Passover.

Chris777

Remember as christians we are in fact the property of Christ, we are posessions, and yes we are slaves, but I personally would rather be a slave to Christ, who created the world, before we caused its coruption, than to the world we (with a big nudge from satan)are creating.

Slaves don't have a choice, but somehow, we do. We are indebted to God, but we aren't his slaves.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by BlockHead

So you like to make vague generalizations.

There seem to be plenty of Christians in this forum. Do you think you can find some examples of them "prancing around saying they are better than everyone else"? It shouldn't be too hard since "many are constantly prancing around".

 

You make my point every time you post, babe.

[BlockHead]

blind_otter

You make my point every time you post, babe.

If I am then cite where you think I am "prancing around saying" that I am "better than everyone else".

If you have something then deliver it otherwise your claim ammounts to nothing more than libel. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

 

Do you know what libel is?

[Sarah12385]

well, i must say...i didn't expect so many replies, but i appreciate all of your posts, both good and not so good heh...

 

i'm sorry to cause such huge chaos over this, i *do* feel bad for those of you who have gotten offended by some of the posts.

 

i can understand where all of you are coming from pretty much, there always seems to be a disagreement with people of different cultures getting together.

 

i *may* sound naieve to some of you, or even stupid, but i don't care. i don't care if he's not an american-raised farm boy or some multi millionare business man. none of that even matters to me, this man is so true at heart and just amazing, to me.

 

whether i convert to Islam or *any* other religion, i don't know. i would never step into a relgion for a man, or for my own benefit, like one of the posts said, changing religions isn't just like changing a pair of pants. religion, i believe, needs to come from the heart. just because i read the Qu'ran and study the religion - i don't go around thinking of myself as a Muslim. i *do* feel, however, that what i'm doing, at least thus far, is the right thing to do. a priest who i've known for ages is meeting with me in a couple weeks to talk to me about all of this.

 

i know religion isn't a huge part of life for everyone, and in no way am i trying to preach, but for me it is. i believe that in the end, faith is and could be the only thing a person can really have left & trust in their life.

 

thank you all very much for the posts, they gave me a lot of insight for sure

 

 

 

~Sarah~

[alphamale]

Originally posted by BlockHead

Do you know what libel is?

li·bel ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbl)

n.

 

A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.

 

The act of presenting such material to the public.

 

The written claims presented by a plaintiff in an action at admiralty law or to an ecclesiastical court.

[lindya]

Originally posted by BlockHead

If I am then cite where you think I am "prancing around saying" that I am "better than everyone else".

If you have something then deliver it otherwise your claim ammounts to nothing more than libel. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

 

Do you know what libel is?

 

I hope you're joking, Blockhead. I'd buy tickets to hear anyone argue that definition of libel in a courtroom

[moimeme]

If it ain't libel, it's slander, right? As in anybody criticizing Bush is 'slandering' him.

 

Christianity and Judiasm survived the fall of Rome, and many wars

 

If you'll have a look around, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and plenty of other religions have also been long-lived. Some even predate Christianity.

 

And I live in the South, where you may as well say "fundamentalist" when you say "christian".

 

That's all well and fine but you're helping to perpetuate the negative characterization of non-Fundies.

 

very bad for the human race as a whole cause it sets people against each other.

 

It's human nature to find reasons to dislike others. If it's not religion, it's language. If it's not language, it's colour. If it's not colour, it's whether you mow your lawn enough. If it's not the lawn, it's what sort of music you like or what football team you cheer for.

 

You can't eliminate all the excuses people find to dislike one another but it might be nice if people found ways to overcome disliking each other entirely.

[mental_traveller]

Originally posted by moimeme

Well isn't this special. A bunch of people who have NOT studied the faith, know little about it except for visits to the mosques of extremists and rumours in the press purporting to understand the faith and spouting such utter bunk;

 

Having said that, the original texts of each religion are public material - if the Koran says something objectionable, then Islam is objectionable, just like Christianity & the Old Testament. Mohammed basically went around killing lots of people, hardly noble behaviour.