At the risk of sounding sexist...

[GunslingerRoland]

Perhaps bowing to peer pressure, many women today over-invest in their children and under-perform in their marriage. Between Mommy-and-me, Gymboree, play dates and a million other new age activities, a lot of women turn child-rearing into an activity so consuming it leaves little time for anything else even as the kids get older. Little energy is left for either the house or the husband, both suffer as a result.

 

This is very true and very common. It's a major issue in my household and many others that I know.

[sambolini]

I've always said women work MUCH harder than men. And I stand by it.

 

 

Men single handedly built the entire infrastructure of our modern civilization. I don't see women building roads, skyscrapers, railroads, houses, working the mines. I've never even seen a woman garbage man.

 

I've never heard of a feminist trying to change "garbage man" to "garbage person". Maybe it's because women don't want those jobs.

 

You can thank men for pretty much the entire infrastructure of modern civilization that you take for granted.

 

You're welcome.

Edited January 14, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Offensive ~ V

[TaraMaiden2]

Men single handedly built the entire infrastructure of our modern civilization. I don't see women building roads, skyscrapers, railroads, houses, working the mines. I've never even seen a woman garbage man.

 

I've never heard of a feminist trying to change "garbage man" to "garbage person". Maybe it's because women don't want those jobs.

 

You can thank men for pretty much the entire infrastructure of modern civilization that you take for granted.

 

You're welcome.

 

Don't some men talk absolute claptrap....

 

10 examples, in just one field:

 

And during the war....?

 

Then:

 

Eminent female engineers

 

Famous women Architects

 

Female miners

 

And finally...?

 

Female Garbage collectors

 

 

Now be quiet.

Edited January 14, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed offensive reference in the quoted material ~ V

[carhill]

Yep, kinda like:

 

"Some men are very selfish and immature. Those types do not take care of their responsibilities as partners and/or fathers. They expect women to give them everything while they give nothing in return. Plenty of men do not help with housework and child rearing, yet they expect their wives to be ready to have sex with them every minute. Some men are also very lazy and do not care that their actions are leading their families into poverty. I've also noticed that some men allow their friends and addictions to take precedence over their families."

 

We of course understand that no self-respecting woman would ever choose or stay with such a man so they must be in a tiny minority of male humans, kind of like the ladies in the above links. They're around, sure. Just like the men in the quote.

[TaraMaiden2]

Hi Carhill. don't know if you're responding to me...

 

just to clarify though, I do not, and never would dispute that there are problematic partners within both genders.

This forum alone is testimony to that.

 

But to unequivocally call someone a fool, and then propose that 'men single handedly built the entire infrastructure of our modern civilization" could not be left unchallenged or unanswered.

[ShatteredLady]

I've noticed some huge differences between living in London England & Dallas Texas. Although I've spent time in other areas of America & Europe I haven't lived anywhere long enough to truly voice my opinions.

 

It will be interesting for me (hopefully others) if you can tell me of these are Texas or USA norms...

 

1. When I got to parties, bbq etc. I find it REALLY strange that the women end-up in one room & men in another! My first invite we were a little late. For the first hour I honestly thought I was the ONLY woman invited. I got a drink & sat with my H as I would at home. Only later did I realize that ALL the women were sat upstairs. They only came down to serve food. I've NEVER experienced that in any country before.

 

2. When the conversation becomes 'heavy', politics, religion, social issues etc even men I know well will either ignore my input or reply to me by saying it to my H!!! Same with service providers, plumbers, car sales men, realtors etc.

 

3. Cinema or watching films with friends.... Why do men make childish comments or make embarrassed silly teenage noises at nudity or sex scenes? A local art teacher was fired a couple of years ago because 14 year old boys left the organized 'path' through an art gallery & saw the nude statues! WTF?

I sunbathed topless in Europe with friends of both sexes.

 

4. My voice & expressions come from my face not my breasts!

 

5. I was playing pool with my H & 2 male friends from UK. By the nature of money down pool I played with stranger men. They assumed we were swingers because I was talking to the men! Again WTF!

 

6. Can't remember where I heard this... Most female medical students never practice & state that they studied that subject to 'get a husband'. (Similar with law). I still find this hard to believe in the USA. I don't think an English woman would admit to that!

 

7. Most USA men I know talk as if Home, Land, FAMILY is an achievement. They've accomplished something to be proud of if they have those things.

 

8. USA men can cook!!! Is this for the whole BBQ & 'bring a dish' parties?

 

9. Friends divorced leaving the (attractive) wife single. All of her married female friends dumped her!

 

10. More of a question. Are cheerleaders in school considered lame or cool? I'd be mortified if my daughter wanted to be a cheerleader! I see shaking Pom poms while men perform a sport...sad!

 

I'm being honest. Not critisizing one country over another. I have dear friends in the USA. Like the original question I hope I'm not taken as any kind of '...ist' for saying these things

[Shining One]

I've always said women work MUCH harder than men.

Would you care to share the mathematical algorithm you're using to come to this conclusion?

 

I've observed hard-working and lazy people of both genders, but I haven't studied it enough to make any sweeping conclusions like this.

[ShatteredLady]

My Mum (70's) always says that women work so much harder today than they ever did in the past. She blames modern appliances. You would sweep the house once a week not you vacuum every couple of days at least etc. You never washed clothes EVERY time you wore them etc.

 

I ALSO think men work harder. Mobile devises mean my H is contactable 24/7. No more 9-5. AND they're expected to do chores at home.

 

As already stated, women now do a large % of house work AND work outside the home. I worked way more than 50 hours a week & did all the home stuff! AND I was a crazy play-date, kinder music, Gymboree, etc AND down the gym to stay trim AND cooked elaborate meals (not stew that lasted 1/2 the week like grandparents!) AND thought I had to be a domestic goddess AND a bedroom vixen...

 

I nearly lost my marbles when my babies were tiny. I'm now not convinced that racing from location too location to shake bells & play with a parachute has advanced my kids at all! AND if I'm truly judged on how shiny my toilet bowls are do I REALLY need those friends??!!

[TX-SC]

There are always good and bad people, regardless of the sex. My wife and I both work and we share household duties. I cook and clean and take care of kids too. I'd say she does 60% to my 40% inside. But, I do 100% of the outside work, like cutting grass, raking leaves, changing the oil, cleaning the gutters, etc. A lot of women forget that guys do all of that outside stuff, and just complain about cooking and cleaning. In other words, they see what they want to see. And, I have dated women who couldn't cook and sucked at cleaning. It depends on how you were raised. I personally like to cook.

 

As for useless, cokehead types, yeah I see more guys like that than women. But there are plenty of crack ho's and street walkers too. I really don't know why more men are useless, but I suppose we each just need to choose wisely.

[Els]

I don't think any one gender holds a monopoly on selfishness and immaturity. I do know a few men like the ones you describe, it's up to us to stay away from them. We have economical independence and the right to pick our partners now, so they can only be *******s in a R if the woman picks them. Same goes the other way around.

[Els]

My Mum (70's) always says that women work so much harder today than they ever did in the past. She blames modern appliances. You would sweep the house once a week not you vacuum every couple of days at least etc. You never washed clothes EVERY time you wore them etc.

 

What?!?!? Have you ever tried sweeping the whole house and washing your clothes by hand??? I don't know about you but I've done both (in Asia lots of people still don't have modern appliances) and I'll take the vacuum cleaner and washing machine any day. And why would you need to vacuum every couple of days if you can deal with only having the house swept every week?

[ShatteredLady]

We've lived in our house for about 4 years. I'm exaggerating a little when I say that I can count the number of times my H has been outside on my fingers! My reality is that 'modern man' doesn't do house maintenance, garden/yard work or the old cliches of teaching kids to ride bikes & do outdoors stuff.

 

That's my reality anyway. I have a degenerative spine so my H changes high light bulbs (eventually). Recently, after 25 years of NEVER cooking or cleaning he has started microwaving food for us, sometimes, after I've cooked for the kids.

 

The truth is we met just after my 21st birthday. I'm as responsible for nurturing him as his parents. I truly liked cooking & interior design....you just don't earn 'brownie points' for a lifetime of doing everything. In fact it makes it worse because the other person feels put upon for doing things they've never had to do.

 

Sorry. Bad day! "In sickness & health" means nothing. It's too much responsibility to suddenly have to do things. I get it! I really do. But for the first time in my life I'm feeling resentment & it's frightening. As I said, don't I have some 'credit' for 25 years of everything in & out of the house?

[ShatteredLady]

Quote - "What?!?!? Have you ever tried sweeping the whole house and washing your clothes by hand??? I don't know about you but I've done both (in Asia lots of people still don't have modern appliances) and I'll take the vacuum cleaner and washing machine any day. And why would you need to vacuum every couple of days if you can deal with only having the house swept every week?"

 

 

HONESTLY...I'm crazy lady. Degenerative spine, cancer etc & I swiffer 2-3x a day & vacuum everyday or every other day! We have cats! I know!!! I'm really working on my new reality. I've painted houses 8 months pregnant. I've staged a house to move with a new born baby who cried if I didn't sing CONSTANTLY...crawling with a vomit bowl (because of the pain)....leaving time for a bath to smell good for my man!! WTF!!!

 

I KNOW I need to sort my s**t out. I honestly loved being the perfect wife & Mum but there's no such thing. I've asked MANY times "How did I become THIS woman?".

 

I need to stop writing today. It's a panic attack, can't breath, wish I was dead day.... Sometimes sharing helps even if it frustrates others. Sorry. Need a nap!!

[Els]

We've lived in our house for about 4 years. I'm exaggerating a little when I say that I can count the number of times my H has been outside on my fingers! My reality is that 'modern man' doesn't do house maintenance, garden/yard work or the old cliches of teaching kids to ride bikes & do outdoors stuff.

 

Housework vs outdoor work is most certainly not anywhere close to an even split of chores for most couples living in urban/suburban areas nowadays, and should not be considered as such. The only exception is if you're living on a self-maintained rural house with a LOT of land.

 

I do think though that guys have gotten a lot better at contributing to housework over the years, especially if they had good parents who insisted that they do chores as kids. I won't pretend that there is never a problem with housework division between me and my SO, but the issue is mostly that I have much higher standards of cleanliness, not a gender role thing. If he ever notices that something needs to be done, he'll do it himself, not ask me to do it. He's never considered himself 'above' cooking or cleaning, and during crunch times such as me being sick, having a work deadline etc, he's pulled more than his fair share when asked.

 

The only problem is that he rarely notices before I do... But he takes on the 'traditional male' role of provider, so the discrepancy in housework is rarely an issue for me.

[Els]

 

HONESTLY...I'm crazy lady. Degenerative spine, cancer etc & I swiffer 2-3x a day & vacuum everyday or every other day! We have cats! I know!!! I'm really working on my new reality. I've painted houses 8 months pregnant. I've staged a house to move with a new born baby who cried if I didn't sing CONSTANTLY...crawling with a vomit bowl (because of the pain)....leaving time for a bath to smell good for my man!! WTF!!!

 

I KNOW I need to sort my s**t out. I honestly loved being the perfect wife & Mum but there's no such thing. I've asked MANY times "How did I become THIS woman?".

 

I need to stop writing today. It's a panic attack, can't breath, wish I was dead day.... Sometimes sharing helps even if it frustrates others. Sorry. Need a nap!!

 

Ahhh... yes, you really need a breather. Honestly, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things if the paint is old or if you go a few days without vacuuming. Try to relax a bit.

[BettyDraper]

Of course it hasn't changed that much.

 

 

Except men also expect women to work full time jobs on top of it.

 

 

They love throwing that 'equality' argument around when it suits them - like when they're whining about who should pay for dinner. And then they suddenly forget all about that equality argument when they couple up and want to keep their lazy asses parked on the couch all the time while the women does most of the domestic work.

 

 

Classic.

 

 

I've always said women work MUCH harder than men. And I stand by it.

 

 

It's true that most men are like this. I've met some men in the past who wanted to be the "leader" in a relationship yet expected me to pay my own way. Those fools never got past a coffee date.

 

I don't know how people can expect a traditional partner without contributing traditionally themselves.

[BettyDraper]

Then you are a fool.

 

Men single handedly built the entire infrastructure of our modern civilization. I don't see women building roads, skyscrapers, railroads, houses, working the mines. I've never even seen a woman garbage man.

 

I've never heard of a feminist trying to change "garbage man" to "garbage person". Maybe it's because women don't want those jobs.

 

You can thank men for pretty much the entire infrastructure of modern civilization that you take for granted.

 

You're welcome.

 

Who do you think gave birth to those men and had most of the responsibility for raising them? You are more than welcome for the fact that you are alive!

 

Do you think it is fair that most wives work full time and yet they are still expected to do all of the house work and child rearing?

 

What you shared about your ex wife was disappointing and rather disgusting. A spouse who stays at home should be taking care of the household.

It doesn't matter if it is the wife or husband who is not working outside the home.

Edited January 14, 2016 by BettyDraper

[BettyDraper]

Housework vs outdoor work is most certainly not anywhere close to an even split of chores for most couples living in urban/suburban areas nowadays, and should not be considered as such. The only exception is if you're living on a self-maintained rural house with a LOT of land.

 

I do think though that guys have gotten a lot better at contributing to housework over the years, especially if they had good parents who insisted that they do chores as kids. I won't pretend that there is never a problem with housework division between me and my SO, but the issue is mostly that I have much higher standards of cleanliness, not a gender role thing. If he ever notices that something needs to be done, he'll do it himself, not ask me to do it. He's never considered himself 'above' cooking or cleaning, and during crunch times such as me being sick, having a work deadline etc, he's pulled more than his fair share when asked.

 

The only problem is that he rarely notices before I do... But he takes on the 'traditional male' role of provider, so the discrepancy in housework is rarely an issue for me.

 

This is key. Any man who wants to "lead" me needs to step up as a provider.

My husband is the only man I have known who didn't expect me to equally contribute while doing everything around the house.

[BettyDraper]

Yep, kinda like:

 

"Some men are very selfish and immature. Those types do not take care of their responsibilities as partners and/or fathers. They expect women to give them everything while they give nothing in return. Plenty of men do not help with housework and child rearing, yet they expect their wives to be ready to have sex with them every minute. Some men are also very lazy and do not care that their actions are leading their families into poverty. I've also noticed that some men allow their friends and addictions to take precedence over their families."

 

We of course understand that no self-respecting woman would ever choose or stay with such a man so they must be in a tiny minority of male humans, kind of like the ladies in the above links. They're around, sure. Just like the men in the quote.

 

Sometimes women and men stay in awful marriages for the sake of their children. They are desperate to raise their children in a two parent home, no matter what the cost is to their emotional health. I don't agree with that mindset but I am not a mother so what do I know.

[BettyDraper]

This is key. Any man who wants to "lead" me needs to step up as a provider.

My husband is the only man I have known who didn't expect me to equally contribute while doing everything around the house.

 

I meant to say that my husband never expected me to contribute financially while doing everything around the house. Sorry. Couldn't edit.

[TaraMaiden2]

What?!?!? Have you ever tried sweeping the whole house and washing your clothes by hand??? I don't know about you but I've done both (in Asia lots of people still don't have modern appliances) and I'll take the vacuum cleaner and washing machine any day. And why would you need to vacuum every couple of days if you can deal with only having the house swept every week?

What 'modern ladies' fail to understand is that certain days were allocated to certain tasks.

Monday (for some reason) was wash-day.

The whole day was devoted to laundry.

Other days had certain tasks too.

And women members of the family used to live close together, or nearby, and would help each other out... so 'wash day' was usually for more than one household.

Neighbours also helped, and doors were open... Children played together, outdoors, while their mothers did the chores...

And during the war years, while the guys were being patriotic Gun fodder, the women ran the country. Seriously, they did. They worked in factories, learnt how to be mechanics and engineers (HM the Queen can strip a combustion engine down and build it again!) and they worked the land to grow the crops...and "manned" the munitions factories, building the armoury that kept the hun's at bay. Twice.

 

So actually, I think women have worked hard, whatever age we live in.

[Els]

This is key. Any man who wants to "lead" me needs to step up as a provider.

 

This makes sense. "Head of the household" has traditionally been synonymous with "provider" in my culture, anyway - it was viewed as a heavy responsibility, not "I have penis, I lead you follow, nehnehneh" immature crap. My grandfather and father worked almost 80 hours a week providing for their families.

 

One thing I never understood was how some couples claim to be all modern and egalitarian - split the bills 50/50, go dutch every time they go out, guy doesn't carry heavy stuff for her or any other chivalrous acts... and then the woman legally changes her family name to her husband's??? Like, how does that compute??? I know a few couples like that and it just boggles my mind why the women would accept that. It's such a huge legal hassle, can damage your career, and seems so out of place in an egalitarian society. If you are in an otherwise 'traditional' R then fair enough, but why would you be 'modern' in everything except this?

 

To be fair I am probably biased about this since it has never been a thing in my culture, so despite us being 'more traditional' than Caucasians, none of our women change their name legally (unless they marry a Caucasian man). I never even thought ANYONE did that until I became more acquainted with Caucasian cultures, and then it really seemed strange.

[Shining One]

One thing I never understood was how some couples claim to be all modern and egalitarian - split the bills 50/50, go dutch every time they go out, guy doesn't carry heavy stuff for her or any other chivalrous acts... and then the woman legally changes her family name to her husband's??? Like, how does that compute??? I know a few couples like that and it just boggles my mind why the women would accept that. It's such a huge legal hassle, can damage your career, and seems so out of place in an egalitarian society. If you are in an otherwise 'traditional' R then fair enough, but why would you be 'modern' in everything except this?

As with many other things, people pick and choose. If I ever get married, she will not be required to change her last name. In fact, I would recommend against it for the reasons you've provided.

[anika99]

I haven't read the whole thread and I hate to sound sexist too, especially since I have 2 sons who have grown into fine men. Yet I am no spring chicken and I have met many people over my lifetime. Many people have issues, including women, including myself and yet when it comes to just plain selfish irresponsible behavior most of the women don't compare to most of the men. It does seem to come down to a maturity issue. I've met so many men who can't hold a job, can't handle money, have substance abuse issues, have anger management issues, have sporadic or non-existent relationships with their kids, etc. Now I have also met some really great men and women who have none of the above issues but of the people that have issues the men seem to outdo the women.

[BettyDraper]

I haven't read the whole thread and I hate to sound sexist too, especially since I have 2 sons who have grown into fine men. Yet I am no spring chicken and I have met many people over my lifetime. Many people have issues, including women, including myself and yet when it comes to just plain selfish irresponsible behavior most of the women don't compare to most of the men. It does seem to come down to a maturity issue. I've met so many men who can't hold a job, can't handle money, have substance abuse issues, have anger management issues, have sporadic or non-existent relationships with their kids, etc. Now I have also met some really great men and women who have none of the above issues but of the people that have issues the men seem to outdo the women.

 

I have noticed the same thing and it makes me sad.

That said, I have known some very immature and entitled women as well.