I thought I was doing ok...

[Adoraxx]

So I haven't updated here in a while because I thought people would just tell me I should be over it by now. I feel like I should be over it by now.

 

It's been 2 months. Total NC. Not a peep from either of us. This is now half as long as we were together. It should be over for me. And yet, I still hurt so much. I still think about him all the time. I know I think about him less than I did and days when I don't think about him much at all. But then there are bad days when I think about him as soon as I wake up and during the course of the day.

 

Last week was a bad one for me. I think I was hormonal and just generally sad. I never deleted the app we texted on but I never go on there any more. BUT sometimes my phone just opens the app (same as it does Ebay, Etsy or tons of other apps). It did it one day last week, I saw he'd just been on, I logged off.

 

Then Saturday I was out of town and with friends and suddenly noticed that my phone had the app open. And then I realized that he'd changed something and I could no longer see exactly when he'd been on. I figured he blocked me. I felt like I got punched in the gut. I left my friends and went to be alone. After doing some research it appears that either he a) changed his preferences so that no one can see exactly when he's on or b) just did it to me. I'm guessing it's b.

 

I have felt sad and hurt since then. I keep going over it and over it. Why would he block me? What did I do to get completely erased like that? I know I should be happy since he made the decision for me, much like I should be happy that he broke up with me, we had a final conversation, he was very clear about everything (finally. He tried to say he was throughout but that's just not true.) I know these are things lots of OW want. That they should make it easier to move on. But I keep reading about all the AP who come back, who try and be friends, etc. and I can't help but feel jealous. I can't help thinking there is something wrong with me that he's NOT coming back or in touch at all. It hurts so much and I can't seem to get it to stop.

 

I am in therapy. I'm starting to work out again. I quit smoking. I'm journaling. I'm doing everything I can to move on. And yet I haven't moved on. I feel like a failure and a loser for still missing him, for being jealous of everyone else, for being sad still. I'm sick about talking to my therapist about this (and I feel like he's like, "we've been over this already. can we move on?") but I don't have anyone else I can talk to. I don't want to admit to any of my friends that I'm still struggling. None of them would understand.

 

All I could think this morning is about writing to him and saying, "Why did you erase me? Didn't I mean anything to you?" I won't. But I want to. I just have too much pride and stubbornness to contact him.

 

Oh Rainbowsandkittens, I could have written this post myself. It's exactly how I feel too!! In September we had the last conversation and ever since then it has been NC , except for 2 moments where I ran into him.

The first run in was on purpose - in November - I wanted to ask him why he is ignoring me. And I asked him that, and he lied and said: "I'm not ignoring you" but of course it's exactly what he is doing.

 

In September he said he would stay in touch but he didn't so that's why I asked that.

 

And then in January I ran into him again, and he said he will come by some day but of course again he hasn't, so he lied to me again.

 

And for all these weeks and months I have wanted to send him an email and ask him: "why did you remove me from your life?? Why???" but I won't ask him again, it's so humiliating that I already asked him in November and when he gave me another one of his vague replies.

 

Oh, back in November I also asked him if he likes to have NO CONTACT with me, and he smiled and said: "well yes, it's so nice and quiet. No discussions, no arguments..." which is awfully mean of him because I never even started any discussions!!

 

Anyway, I, like you, keep hoping that he'll come back... that he'll contact me again. In the past he has gone disappearing more often but he always reappeared... not this time though!! And each and every day I try to let go of that hope that he'll come back, but I honestly don't know how to get ride of that 'hope'......

 

I feel like a failure and a loser too for still missing him.... so I know what you're talking about when you say that . I feel like he hates me and here I am, still hurting and heartbroken, while his life goes on and while it's 'out of sight, out of mind' for him.

 

This morning I almost accidentally ran into him again but he was still quite a distance away and if he would have looked up, he would have seen me, but he didn't look up or anything so I just kept moving and didn't stop. Not sure if he saw me... I guess not. Or maybe he did, but he preferred to act like I'm dead or something.

 

Sending you big hugs, Rainbowsandkitten, you can talk to me any time you want

 

Adoraxx

[123sadgirl]

Hi rainbowsandkittens

 

Did you ever hear from him again ?

[rainbowsandkittens]

No. Tomorrow will be 9 weeks. Not a word.

[heartwhole]

A lot of MMs are conflict avoiders, so they're not going to worry about wrapping up the extramarital relationship neatly once it's over.

 

It's possible he is now transparent with his phone with his partner. My WH is. I have all his log-ins. He leaves his email logged in on the home computer (OW emailed once to test NC, I guess, and I'm the one who saw it). He leaves his phone and his iPad around and I check from time to time. Since my WH is a conflict avoider, he didn't take the initiative on most of the blocking, unfortunately. I wish he had. He did delete WhatsApp and block her on mostly everything, but then I'd think, oh, what about LinkedIn, or what about Skype, and sure enough, not blocked. He wasn't communicating with her through them but he did not take the initiative to block her on his own. Sometimes I did it myself and sometimes I made him do it.

 

Anyway, most betrayed spouses demand total transparency after an affair. In fairness, I am transparent with my devices and accounts as well. We are married and should be a unit. There shouldn't be any relationships or communications that are hidden from the spouse. This isn't about control; it's about openness. It's about understanding that as soon as you are hiding friends or behaviors or really anything from your spouse, you are halfway to an affair. If you have a spouse that you can't share everything with, then you should consider why you are married to begin with.

 

If my husband wants to stay married to me, then he won't have any female friends that aren't friends of the marriage, period. I already followed this rule so it's not like I'm enacting anything crazy here. And obviously that rule applies most especially to the OW. I think that what you guys are missing is that it was never appropriate for your married man to have any kind of secret relationship with you. It doesn't matter whether now you're just exes and you just want some better closure and maybe friendship. He cannot have that and have a healthy marriage at the same time. Can he have female friends? Of course. But if there's nothing weird there, then it'll be out in the open, I'll be friends with her too, he'll tell me if there's any texting, etc.

 

I do think it sucks that you don't get closure as an OW. I actually worried quite a bit about this in the beginning. WH said that she knew what she was getting into and he needed to worry about me, not her. I don't disagree with that, but I did feel that the way he ended things with her (abruptly and without a real explanation) probably made it harder for her to move on. And I'm sure most of his "I'm just concerned about you, not her" was really "I don't have the balls to deal with the fallout from hurting her" and "I don't have the integrity to offer her real closure." Sigh.

[Babsinhealing]

A lot of MMs are conflict avoiders, so they're not going to worry about wrapping up the extramarital relationship neatly once it's over.

 

It's possible he is now transparent with his phone with his partner. My WH is. I have all his log-ins. He leaves his email logged in on the home computer (OW emailed once to test NC, I guess, and I'm the one who saw it). He leaves his phone and his iPad around and I check from time to time. Since my WH is a conflict avoider, he didn't take the initiative on most of the blocking, unfortunately. I wish he had. He did delete WhatsApp and block her on mostly everything, but then I'd think, oh, what about LinkedIn, or what about Skype, and sure enough, not blocked. He wasn't communicating with her through them but he did not take the initiative to block her on his own. Sometimes I did it myself and sometimes I made him do it.

 

Anyway, most betrayed spouses demand total transparency after an affair. In fairness, I am transparent with my devices and accounts as well. We are married and should be a unit. There shouldn't be any relationships or communications that are hidden from the spouse. This isn't about control; it's about openness. It's about understanding that as soon as you are hiding friends or behaviors or really anything from your spouse, you are halfway to an affair. If you have a spouse that you can't share everything with, then you should consider why you are married to begin with.

 

If my husband wants to stay married to me, then he won't have any female friends that aren't friends of the marriage, period. I already followed this rule so it's not like I'm enacting anything crazy here. And obviously that rule applies most especially to the OW. I think that what you guys are missing is that it was never appropriate for your married man to have any kind of secret relationship with you. It doesn't matter whether now you're just exes and you just want some better closure and maybe friendship. He cannot have that and have a healthy marriage at the same time. Can he have female friends? Of course. But if there's nothing weird there, then it'll be out in the open, I'll be friends with her too, he'll tell me if there's any texting, etc.

 

I do think it sucks that you don't get closure as an OW. I actually worried quite a bit about this in the beginning. WH said that she knew what she was getting into and he needed to worry about me, not her. I don't disagree with that, but I did feel that the way he ended things with her (abruptly and without a real explanation) probably made it harder for her to move on. And I'm sure most of his "I'm just concerned about you, not her" was really "I don't have the balls to deal with the fallout from hurting her" and "I don't have the integrity to offer her real closure." Sigh.

Heartwhole- I sincerely hope your marriage can heal and you find happiness, but have you ever considered that he pushed the affair underground? I only say that because my xMM did after DD. I'm sure many men ghost and never provide closure post DD but some don't. My xMM opened a new email, put me under a man's name in his phone, and learned how to shut off his location locator on his phone. His wife became hyper vigilant in her detective skills but it didn't stop him. He even had me email her and tell her it was over and done. Only to text me back and apologize and comfort me. I say this to protect a BS from further hurt and deception- if it looked easy for him to just end it, especially if it was a long term affair, I wouldn't be so "trusting". btw- I eventually ended my A and went NC.

[heartwhole]

Oh, absolutely. We can't ever know with 100% certainty, that's for sure. The reason I personally feel I can trust he hasn't taken it underground is that he feels guilty lying. During the affair he was drinking heavily and always complaining to me about how stressed he was. It was a point if honor that he didn't lie directly to me (as though it's ok to have an affair as long as your spouse doesn't specifically inquire about it). During the first two weeks after DD when he was hiding that it was a PA, he was open about how hard it was to give her up. Could he have changed from an uncomfortable liar to a smooth liar? Could he have a secret phone or email? Of course. But I think it's reasonable to assume he's not. The OW has plastered social media with memes about sorrow and God's will. Could that all be for show? Yes, but again, I doubt it. She lives 24 hours by plane from here. There's little opportunity for them to have much of a relationship.

[rainbowsandkittens]

Adoraxx- Thank you for your post. "here I am, still hurting and heartbroken, while his life goes on and while it's 'out of sight, out of mind' for him." This especially hit me. I know my MM probably thinks about me once in a while (during his "private" times. ahem) but otherwise I truly think it's like I never existed. He refers to his other affairs as "stories" which I think is telling- they all have a distinctive beginning and end. I would love to be able to see him again but since we live in different countries and work in totally different industries that would never happen. We often marveled about how two totally different people from entirely different worlds could manage to find each other and have such a connection (Dating apps, it's not that complicated. lol). I can't imagine how hard it would be to run into him or see him on a regular (or semi regular) basis. I'm so sorry!

 

Heartwhole- Thank you for your post. We didn't have a D-day. I have no idea if his partner has ever figured out or knows about his affairs. I know she was suspicious/ angered by his having a woman he met online as a friend- according to him he wasn't even allowed to go to her wedding. I would probably feel the same, especially given that she's considerably younger (15 years) than the rest of us are. He claims to have few friends that are not her friends and the ones he has are mostly men that he never sees.

 

I also probably had more closure than most people on here. We had an end conversation. He told me this wasn't what he wanted, he wasn't leaving, he didn't want to have two relationships in two places. I didn't have much to say- I was expecting it, in fact I'd opened the door for it. He used the things I said against me. I did laugh at one point, which I still feel bad about. It was a sort of, "Oh, you said that before. You'll be back." thing. He certainly proved me wrong.

 

I'd like to believe (in some part of me. The majority. I think) that things are perfect for them now: no more fighting, him spending more time with all of them, having the intimacy that he craved. But I have a feeling that it's more like, "SSDD." I would guess he went right back to his routine and that he's not changing anything. I hope his therapy is helping. I hope his supposed midlife crisis is ending. I hope he's figuring out who and how he wants to be. Who knows though? He's done this before so it's reasonable to say he probably will again, right?

 

I know he probably has a trip to my city coming up in the next few weeks. Trying not to think about it. We both have big birthdays in a few months- we're 3 weeks apart- and I was thinking about texting him a Happy Birthday when it comes up. He hates his birthday and I always wanted to make it special for him so I thought just acknowledging it would be good. But I'm still undecided about it. I'm sure I'll talk myself out of it by then.

[ladydesigner]

Heartwhole- I sincerely hope your marriage can heal and you find happiness, but have you ever considered that he pushed the affair underground? I only say that because my xMM did after DD. I'm sure many men ghost and never provide closure post DD but some don't. My xMM opened a new email, put me under a man's name in his phone, and learned how to shut off his location locator on his phone. His wife became hyper vigilant in her detective skills but it didn't stop him. He even had me email her and tell her it was over and done. Only to text me back and apologize and comfort me. I say this to protect a BS from further hurt and deception- if it looked easy for him to just end it, especially if it was a long term affair, I wouldn't be so "trusting". btw- I eventually ended my A and went NC.

 

I second this as a BS who really believed they were in R for 2 years and had every possible tracking imaginable on my WH he still managed to take the A underground with a burner phone.

[heartwhole]

I second this as a BS who really believed they were in R for 2 years and had every possible tracking imaginable on my WH he still managed to take the A underground with a burner phone.

 

I'm more concerned about being able to trust his judgment and integrity in all aspects of his life. I'm less concerned about him continuing that relationship or beginning another one. I just don't see him changing from someone who gets insomnia and binge drinks when he's hiding something to someone who does it with ease. I'm also convinced that he has not continued a relationship with OW because she is an oversharer on social media, and after she attempted to contact my husband one last time about 3 months after DD, she quit her job and took a 3 month long backpacking trip to a different foreign country. Again, that could all be faked, but we have real life friends in common who would know if she was posting stuff she wasn't actually doing. While they don't know it was a PA, they were all horrified and felt personally responsible for introducing them.

 

Sometimes I wish he were a better liar because if he doesn't feel remorse, he can't fake it. OK, just kidding, I don't. Because then I'd never know if he's telling the truth. He's still very self-absorbed and complains about how hard all of this is on HIM. I'm his best friend and he just can't keep these thoughts to himself. But at least I know that he's not capable of juggling the many layers of deception that would be required to remain in the affair while pretending to be doing all the work to heal from it. He's very "out of sight, out of mind," and I've absolutely seen him do this with OW. It was like a flip was switched after 2 weeks without contact and he was saying how he couldn't believe how little he missed her. Again, he couldn't fake that. He'd be looking conflicted and sorry for himself if he was actually sitting there missing her terribly.

 

At the end of the day, it's a matter of faith. But his fidelity at this point is the least of my concerns. It's his character that I care about going forward. Because mistress or not, he's still a self-centered person at his core.

 

P.S. I have broken myself of the habit of checking OW's social media. For a long time it was hard to look away from the train wreck of her posting on DD that she wasn't going to give up on something she really wanted, to her posting about her sorrow and pain and how God was going to make it all better. Definitely in the beginning I tracked it to verify that she was firmly on the other side of the world and not in contact with my husband. Then I realized it was time to cut the cord. At a certain point you have to take a leap of faith. I won't be in a marriage where I feel like I can't trust my husband with 99% certainty. I let him think that I check his stuff more than I do, but my spidey senses have not been tingling.

[Babsinhealing]

Heartwhole- sounds like you are acutely in touch with your husband - being able to "read" him like that will hopefully save you from any further betrayal. You are right... You just have to have faith. I have really worked hard on cutting off my abilities to check in on him through social media. He didn't have any sites but his wife and daughters did and I was guilty of occasionally checking in to see if there were any "happy couple moments" that would make me lose more sleep... Thankfully I never got one and he was never in any pictures or status posted. He never even made a profile pic. Question for you seeing we are on the subject (I asked this on my own thread yesterday)... While I'm trying hard to move on- my xMM wife is trolling my social media. DD was almost two months ago and she was on my LinkedIn just this past Monday. Can you give me a peak into what she's thinking. I also think she was sitting outside my house, also on Monday. She was led to believe the A ended - it did, just not right away. But what is her obsession with me if she thinks it's over. If I were her and my husband came back and wanted to fix things (even though he really hasn't tried hard- refused MC) why isn't she focusing on him and her marriage?

[Babsinhealing]

Rainbowsandkittens- sorry to hijack your post! I really do feel your pain... I'm NC too and it's one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. The imagination goes wild. Stay strong... You are way farther than me in your healing. So stay strong and be proud of how far you've gone. Everything you are feeling and questioning is normal. Allow yourself to feel everything and don't tell yourself you shouldn't feel a certain way. My therapist probably needs therapy after my sessions but I don't care lol. I know first hand how hard rejection is but unfortunately, as we've learned, we can't control the way other people handle things. We can only control ourselves. Take care of yourself.

[rainbowsandkittens]

Oh please! Hijack away! I find this all super interesting and helpful.

 

Even though I'm not a BS I was thinking what heartwhole said, sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith and trust someone. I know it's easier said than done. It doesn't mean you've forgotten everything. And certainly she knows what to look for in the future- hopefully- but if you can't trust the other person ever again? Then you might as well not be with them. But maybe that's a nieve way of thinking about it. Who knows how I would feel in that position.

 

But heart- I totally understand what you mean about his integrity and judgement. Is he in counseling to work on this?

 

Also Babs- how can you tell she's been stalking your social media?! (Asking for a friend. Who is worried someone might be able to tell that they've been checking someone's FB and Twitter. As lots of people do.)

[heartwhole]

Heartwhole- sounds like you are acutely in touch with your husband - being able to "read" him like that will hopefully save you from any further betrayal. You are right... You just have to have faith. I have really worked hard on cutting off my abilities to check in on him through social media. He didn't have any sites but his wife and daughters did and I was guilty of occasionally checking in to see if there were any "happy couple moments" that would make me lose more sleep... Thankfully I never got one and he was never in any pictures or status posted. He never even made a profile pic. Question for you seeing we are on the subject (I asked this on my own thread yesterday)... While I'm trying hard to move on- my xMM wife is trolling my social media. DD was almost two months ago and she was on my LinkedIn just this past Monday. Can you give me a peak into what she's thinking. I also think she was sitting outside my house, also on Monday. She was led to believe the A ended - it did, just not right away. But what is her obsession with me if she thinks it's over. If I were her and my husband came back and wanted to fix things (even though he really hasn't tried hard- refused MC) why isn't she focusing on him and her marriage?

 

I can only answer for myself, but here's how it went for me. WH knew he was having an affair, OW knew she was having a relationship with my husband, but I knew nothing. All of a sudden I find out my husband has a secret girlfriend. If my head could have exploded, it would have. The day before DD I had been telling my therapist friend about how I didn't know why some people needed therapy because having a good marriage was easy if you communicated. I didn't have clarity or self-awareness about everything at first. The OW put on social media that she wasn't giving up on him when he cut things off with her on DD. So then I was all, what? What do you mean you're not giving up? He's my HUSBAND. ARE YOU CRAZY? I don't think we even started processing anything in a meaningful way until we were two weeks in. That's when I learned it was a PA and we started MC and he came out of the fog.

 

I distinctly remember around 2 months after DD my WH saying that he just wanted to look ahead to the future and he didn't know why I was still focusing on it with some kind of terrible metaphor about a rearview mirror. I said, yeah, well, you were obviously ready, on some level, for it to end. You were relieved when it did. You were ready to move on. I didn't even know any of this was happening. I'm way behind you on processing this.

 

I can tell you honestly that I have been through hard things in my life -- lost my father to suicide and developed a chronic illness that has drastically changed my life -- and this is much harder. Because this is something that I can't go through with my husband providing any kind of true comfort. He is the *cause* of all this pain and every interaction that moves us towards one another is also laced with pain. It is an enormous sorrow. But I digress.

 

I'm almost a year out from DD and I still think about the OW. Her social media makes it pretty clear that she hasn't really moved on. She knew him for less than 6 months before DD. So if she hasn't moved on, why is it any surprise that I haven't? I'm supposed to be cheated on and handle it all with enormous grace and never have any (reasonable) doubts or paranoia? All I know is that from personal experience, I do better when I don't check her stuff. And this go round, I feel ready to let go of keeping tabs on her. It's been twice as long since DD as they even knew each other. I'm finally beginning to feel like there's distance from it.

 

When the BW fixates on the OW, she is distracting herself from real source of her pain: her husband. That doesn't make it right, but it's understandable. For one thing, our society vilifies the other woman. She's just some dirty [fill in the blank] who's trying to steal your man. But mostly I think it's self-preservation. You can't make it through those early, hard days if you face the totality of your husband's betrayal. So you think about the interloper instead. How could she do that? How could she think it would work out? Why would she want it to work out? You know intellectually that it's not personal, but it feels personal when the person's ultimate goal/hope was for your husband to foist you aside and replace you with her (that's not every OW's goal but it was for mine).

 

I would encourage you to be patient and kind with her just as you hope people will be with you. She doesn't know if you're sane. She doesn't know if you're still a threat. She doesn't know if you have naked pictures of her husband that you're going to post on the internet if you don't like how things go. She doesn't know if you're pregnant. She doesn't know if you have STIs that you shared with her husband. All she knows is that you slept with him, and that's enough. Even the most reasonable of people will react crazily in a situation like this.

 

As for why she is driving by your house, I don't know. If she's not a sane and grounded person, then you should be careful. Be aware of your surroundings. But checking LinkedIn is pretty innocuous. People check each other's LinkedIns all the time. As for why she hasn't moved on when she's already been lied to, it's probably because it doesn't add up. I kept searching until it added up. If you're smart and actually communicating with your husband, then you will put it all together eventually. So then she discovers that he DID keep seeing you or talking with you after DD. He lied AGAIN. So now she's really paranoid. How can she trust him? She's thinking, why won't OW go away? Maybe she views that as the solution to her problems. She doesn't realize that if she has to scare off the OW, then what does that say about her marriage?

 

I think in the scheme of "How could s/he do that?" a betrayed spouse keeping an eye on the other woman is much lower on the totem pole than "How could he lie to me?" or "How could he have sex with someone else?" or "Why would she agree to be the third wheel in a love triangle?" And my OW is an oversharer. She can't check my stuff because I have privacy settings in place. But she puts it all out there. She even has a (poorly written) blog. Who could resist a peek into the mind of the OW? If BW had a blog, admit it, you'd probably be reading it too. Am I right?

[13Hearts]

A lot of MMs are conflict avoiders, so they're not going to worry about wrapping up the extramarital relationship neatly once it's over.

 

It's possible he is now transparent with his phone with his partner. My WH is. I have all his log-ins. He leaves his email logged in on the home computer (OW emailed once to test NC, I guess, and I'm the one who saw it). He leaves his phone and his iPad around and I check from time to time. Since my WH is a conflict avoider, he didn't take the initiative on most of the blocking, unfortunately. I wish he had. He did delete WhatsApp and block her on mostly everything, but then I'd think, oh, what about LinkedIn, or what about Skype, and sure enough, not blocked. He wasn't communicating with her through them but he did not take the initiative to block her on his own. Sometimes I did it myself and sometimes I made him do it.

 

Anyway, most betrayed spouses demand total transparency after an affair. In fairness, I am transparent with my devices and accounts as well. We are married and should be a unit. There shouldn't be any relationships or communications that are hidden from the spouse. This isn't about control; it's about openness. It's about understanding that as soon as you are hiding friends or behaviors or really anything from your spouse, you are halfway to an affair. If you have a spouse that you can't share everything with, then you should consider why you are married to begin with.

 

If my husband wants to stay married to me, then he won't have any female friends that aren't friends of the marriage, period. I already followed this rule so it's not like I'm enacting anything crazy here. And obviously that rule applies most especially to the OW. I think that what you guys are missing is that it was never appropriate for your married man to have any kind of secret relationship with you. It doesn't matter whether now you're just exes and you just want some better closure and maybe friendship. He cannot have that and have a healthy marriage at the same time. Can he have female friends? Of course. But if there's nothing weird there, then it'll be out in the open, I'll be friends with her too, he'll tell me if there's any texting, etc.

No way on earth I would live my life with a man who I would have to do this with. Life is too short and I have my own life to live, without having to check some child's email, cell phone, on-line accounts, bank accounts, etc etc to be sure he is doing what he is supposed to be doing or not doing what he isn't. Ridiculous.

 

Your WH will resent you for keeping tabs on him and preventing him from having any privacy. That's no relationship; that's prison. For both.

 

Also, just because you are friends with a woman, it does not mean she will not have sex with your husband. Where there is opportunity, it's conceivably sure to happen.

 

I wish you luck.

[Babsinhealing]

Rainbowsandkittans- i don't have a Twitter account so I can't speak for that but any views to my LinkedIn page shows... And sure, enough- there she was again on Monday. My xMM told me after DD she went on my FB page but I have it locked up for friends only so she can only see my profile pic. He also told me she knew where I lived, where I worked and what I did for a profession.. She did her homework. It didn't surprise me, I would have done the same I guess. She did contact me post DD but she didn't make any threats. Just had questions. My xMM told me she told her therapist That she contacted me and that I was just no-nonsense/very direct and her therapist told her that probably all my responses were scripted by her H... She's got a good therapist- she nailed it.

 

I don't fear her- I don't like her watching me... That's a little creepy but she's in her own recovery so she has to do what she has to do.

[13Hearts]

Oh Rainbowsandkittens, I could have written this post myself. It's exactly how I feel too!! In September we had the last conversation and ever since then it has been NC , except for 2 moments where I ran into him.

The first run in was on purpose - in November - I wanted to ask him why he is ignoring me. And I asked him that, and he lied and said: "I'm not ignoring you" but of course it's exactly what he is doing.

 

In September he said he would stay in touch but he didn't so that's why I asked that.

 

And then in January I ran into him again, and he said he will come by some day but of course again he hasn't, so he lied to me again.

 

And for all these weeks and months I have wanted to send him an email and ask him: "why did you remove me from your life?? Why???" but I won't ask him again, it's so humiliating that I already asked him in November and when he gave me another one of his vague replies.

 

Oh, back in November I also asked him if he likes to have NO CONTACT with me, and he smiled and said: "well yes, it's so nice and quiet. No discussions, no arguments..." which is awfully mean of him because I never even started any discussions!!

 

Anyway, I, like you, keep hoping that he'll come back... that he'll contact me again. In the past he has gone disappearing more often but he always reappeared... not this time though!! And each and every day I try to let go of that hope that he'll come back, but I honestly don't know how to get ride of that 'hope'......

 

I feel like a failure and a loser too for still missing him.... so I know what you're talking about when you say that . I feel like he hates me and here I am, still hurting and heartbroken, while his life goes on and while it's 'out of sight, out of mind' for him.

 

This morning I almost accidentally ran into him again but he was still quite a distance away and if he would have looked up, he would have seen me, but he didn't look up or anything so I just kept moving and didn't stop. Not sure if he saw me... I guess not. Or maybe he did, but he preferred to act like I'm dead or something.

 

Sending you big hugs, Rainbowsandkitten, you can talk to me any time you want

 

Adoraxx

Oh Adoraxx, I really wish you would not continue to look at things this way. I know the pain you have in your heart. And I know what it does to your own self-esteem. It will eat at you and eat at you, until there is no you left. I know because I have been there. Left devastated, standing alone, wondering WTH just happened. Abandoned, dumped, whatever you want to call it. But I have learned over time that I was not looking at things correctly. Want to know what I believe?

 

I believe that MEN follow WOMEN. Men invented this thing called marriage, along with marriage proposals, to make women believe that THEY are the commodity, THEY are the desireable ones, and that women must compete with others for the affections of a man. But in reality, it is women who hold the key to life, women are the builders and creators, and women are the ones who hold the visions of the future. Not men.

 

Men are the taskers, the ones who need to show their purpose and their usefulness. Men need women to give them direction and purpose for being. For without that, what are men for? They are the worker bees and we are the queens, just like in the beehive.

 

So women need to have strong vision. They need to know what they want. And women need to do all the work to plan how life will be. If that vision includes a man, you have to spell that out for them. You have to give them instructions for how to carry out that vision. You can't let them decide what the vision will be, because if you do, he will make the wrong decisions. And any man left idle for too long will eventually seek out another woman, one who has a strong vision and knows what she wants him to do. I also believe that a man goes away, all it means is that you ran out of use for him.

 

Crying over a man or lamenting that a man is gone is NOT in line with your true self. Your true self is a designer and a desirer; you have only to tell them your desires. But if you can't, he will know you have no use for him, and will move along until he finds someone who does. You're wasting time and energy lamenting the loss of someone you had no use for, to help you achieve what your soul desires. He's gone because you were done with him. NOT because he was done with you.

 

Are you ready to stop feeling bad? Time to leave him in your dust. Next!

[Babsinhealing]

Heartwhole- you are so right. I'm would be on that blog hourly! Your perspective was so needed and I believe it's probably a pretty common story for what most BS experience. Thank you for sharing such detail. I had a post a few days ago that showed me the inside mind of a MM post DD (because I was clueless) and that was also quite eye opening.

 

The part about me being "patient and kind" with the BS stuck out... The thing I forget is I know ME but she doesn't. I would never do anything like post naked pics of him or threaten her but the only thing she knows about me is what she sees on LinkedIn and that I somehow "stole her husband" for a year (he first told her it was a couple of months, then 6mths as she dug and dug and they landed on a year- it was actually 20 months including Post DD but she doesn't know that). So I can see why she's so curious. I'm also extremely successful with advanced degrees, which she can see on LinkedIn so I'm sure that doesn't help.

 

Lastly, her husband's track record for lying about me is horrific. We had a "small" DD last summer where she found pics of me on his iPad- he covered it up quickly, she never knew my name, he told her it was an online thing and I lived in the Midwest. To her horror I'm sure... Imagine her response when she sees the same face 7 months later on DD #2 only to realize this is the same person your husband lied about... But now I live 1/2 HR away and he's been having a long term affair. So I'm sure she sees me as a huge threat.

 

Thanks again for sharing. I feel bad you've had to go thru that

[Adoraxx]

Oh Adoraxx, I really wish you would not continue to look at things this way. I know the pain you have in your heart. And I know what it does to your own self-esteem. It will eat at you and eat at you, until there is no you left. I know because I have been there. Left devastated, standing alone, wondering WTH just happened. Abandoned, dumped, whatever you want to call it. But I have learned over time that I was not looking at things correctly. Want to know what I believe?

 

I believe that MEN follow WOMEN. Men invented this thing called marriage, along with marriage proposals, to make women believe that THEY are the commodity, THEY are the desireable ones, and that women must compete with others for the affections of a man. But in reality, it is women who hold the key to life, women are the builders and creators, and women are the ones who hold the visions of the future. Not men.

 

Men are the taskers, the ones who need to show their purpose and their usefulness. Men need women to give them direction and purpose for being. For without that, what are men for? They are the worker bees and we are the queens, just like in the beehive.

 

So women need to have strong vision. They need to know what they want. And women need to do all the work to plan how life will be. If that vision includes a man, you have to spell that out for them. You have to give them instructions for how to carry out that vision. You can't let them decide what the vision will be, because if you do, he will make the wrong decisions. And any man left idle for too long will eventually seek out another woman, one who has a strong vision and knows what she wants him to do. I also believe that a man goes away, all it means is that you ran out of use for him.

 

Crying over a man or lamenting that a man is gone is NOT in line with your true self. Your true self is a designer and a desirer; you have only to tell them your desires. But if you can't, he will know you have no use for him, and will move along until he finds someone who does. You're wasting time and energy lamenting the loss of someone you had no use for, to help you achieve what your soul desires. He's gone because you were done with him. NOT because he was done with you.

 

Are you ready to stop feeling bad? Time to leave him in your dust. Next!

 

Thanks so much for your post, 13Hearts. It's interesting that you used the words 'no use for'. He sometimes yelled at me: "I have no use for you anymore!" and then discarded me, only for him to come back to me again... But perhaps you're right, and it's I this time who has 'no use' for him anymore. I hope my feelings of sadness will go away quickly, sometimes it's just too much to bear. Anyway, it's indeed time for me to leave him in my dust... and I'm the prize here, not he.

 

Thanks again and big hugs

Adoraxx

[heartwhole]

No way on earth I would live my life with a man who I would have to do this with. Life is too short and I have my own life to live, without having to check some child's email, cell phone, on-line accounts, bank accounts, etc etc to be sure he is doing what he is supposed to be doing or not doing what he isn't. Ridiculous.

 

Your WH will resent you for keeping tabs on him and preventing him from having any privacy. That's no relationship; that's prison. For both.

 

Also, just because you are friends with a woman, it does not mean she will not have sex with your husband. Where there is opportunity, it's conceivably sure to happen.

 

I wish you luck.

 

It's not ridiculous to look at accounts for which you are both responsible. That's part of being a responsible adult. If my spouse wanted access to money that he never had to be accountable for, I would view that as a red flag, not just because he's probably hiding something but because he's not being a good steward of our financial security.

 

After an affair the pendulum of security and openness has swung all the way to an extreme of inappropriateness and secrecy. A couple seeking to reconcile must make mutual decisions about swinging the pendulum back to a place of openness and sharing. Any checking that the betrayed spouse does during this time is an understandable reaction to learning that their spouse is not trustworthy. Setting guidelines for how both spouses will interact with members of the opposite sex is a means for them to identify pitfalls that will endanger their goal of a long, happy marriage and to strategize how to avoid them.

 

It's absolutely a fallacy to believe that I can stop my husband from cheating. That's his responsibility alone. But now that he wants to fix our marriage and remain married to me forever, we can brainstorm together what our ideal marriage looks like and how to make that happen. In an ideal marriage, we'd both share with each other because we want to, not because we have to. We wouldn't have secret friends because we'd so bonded that the idea would be preposterous.

 

It's also a fallacy to suggest that I am responsible for my husband not becoming bitter. That's his responsibility alone. If he feels suffocated then he can and should bring this up and seek a solution with me. If he views me as some enemy who must be thwarted rather than his greatest ally, then we should call it quits.

 

I've seen sentiments like yours on other OW threads, saying they'd never be in a ridiculous relationship/prison like this, but I find it curious that they are knowingly participating in a relationship with a liar and a cheater. That was never anything that I agreed to, and when I discovered after 17 years that I was in a relationship with one, I thought through what I felt was needed to restore the balance and provide security. I don't have a phone mirroring app, I don't have a GPS tracker or VAR, I haven't asked for a polygraph. I have an innate respect for my husband's personhood and privacy, trumped only by my respect for my own. I have never hidden any friendships from him and I expect the same in return. Our end goal is a relationship where neither of us feels the need to check up on the other, but the access is always there. I would argue that the access itself is a key to allowing one to feel that it isn't necessary check.

 

It's all very well and good to worry about the cheater and his rights and feelings. Goodness knows he does. But this is about my fundamental right to autonomy over my body. I have a right to know if I am having sex with someone who is not monogamous. When my WH took that right away from me, he destroyed my ability to trust his judgment and integrity. For reasons not relevant to this discussion, we have both decided that reconciliation is a reasonable and desired outcome. Now we take steps together to forge a new relationship based on mutual goals and respect, with an eye to where things went wrong before.

[Pili-Pala]

I've seen sentiments like yours on other OW threads, saying they'd never be in a ridiculous relationship/prison like this, but I find it curious that they are knowingly participating in a relationship with a liar and a cheater.

 

I guess my comment on that from my personal situation is my MM only lied to me twice during the entire 2 years (both very minor almost white lie things). Towards the end I guess it could be said he lied in telling me he was going to leave and then not doing so - but it wasn't that black and white. He said its what he wanted to do (to leave) and thought he had "decided" to but until he did it he realised and admitted he hadn't made a true decision at all. It was only after an hour long back and fore conversation, when I eventually pointed out to him that he had the perfect opportunity that previous weekend to have that conversation and do it and hadn't done so, that he finally answered my question of "are you going to leave?" with a simple no. And to be honest I think he'd made that decision then and there at that exact time. I know people will think i am foolish and naive and there is probably things I didn't know he lied about - but I very much feel certain he never did and had lots of evidence to back that up. As a result it often meant I heard things I didn't want to hear, and of course he lied to many many other people - but the one thing I will say is he never lied to me.

[heartwhole]

I guess my comment on that from my personal situation is my MM only lied to me twice during the entire 2 years (both very minor almost white lie things). Towards the end I guess it could be said he lied in telling me he was going to leave and then not doing so - but it wasn't that black and white. He said its what he wanted to do (to leave) and thought he had "decided" to but until he did it he realised and admitted he hadn't made a true decision at all. It was only after an hour long back and fore conversation, when I eventually pointed out to him that he had the perfect opportunity that previous weekend to have that conversation and do it and hadn't done so, that he finally answered my question of "are you going to leave?" with a simple no. And to be honest I think he'd made that decision then and there at that exact time. I know people will think i am foolish and naive and there is probably things I didn't know he lied about - but I very much feel certain he never did and had lots of evidence to back that up. As a result it often meant I heard things I didn't want to hear, and of course he lied to many many other people - but the one thing I will say is he never lied to me.

 

Interesting. So your thinking is, yes, he lies in other circumstances, but since he hasn't lied to me, then I can trust that he will continue not to lie to me.

 

Clearly a whole lot of women are having affairs with married men so you're not an aberration in your thinking. But this is just not how I operate. My therapist says I am unusually principled and for sure I have trouble relating to any "shades of grey" thinking. I don't want to be with a man who lies, full stop. I don't believe his character is dependent upon my awesomeness or the depth of our love. I believe that lying is evidence that his character is undesirable, no matter when or to whom he gives himself permission to do it.

 

Thankfully my husband and I are not totally mismatched in this area. Lying was out of the norm for him and he did it poorly. He tried to deflect or omit when I asked questions, not lie directly, kind of like when our kids ask if Santa is real and we say, "Hmmm, what do you think?" Of course that doesn't make how he kept me in the dark about things I had a right to know OK. The intent was the same. But at least I know that he views lying as beneath him. Live your life in the open. If you make good choices in life, then you rarely encounter any reason for outright deception.

[Cymbeline]

'I guess my comment on that from my personal situation is my MM only lied to me twice during the entire 2 years (both very minor almost white lie things). Towards the end I guess it could be said he lied'

 

I realise I am becoming repetitive, but if you were to have access to marital and familial correspondence and conversations over those two years, you would know that you were indeed lied to. At the very least, there will have been lies of omission, and lies arising from lack of self awareness and from rationalisation.

 

You seem so sure you 'know' his marriage and that he is 'taking the wrong path' - ie, not the path you want him to take. I can assure you his wife has opinions too.

 

You don't.

 

How is being kept a secret not a lie, exactly?

 

It is simply not possible to enter into an affair where wife and children, extended family, colleagues and employers are being deceived and yet not lie to each other.

 

I Would also say that it is unlikely that either if you weren't a particularly emotionally healthy place in beginning your affair and are probably far less healthy now. It isn't a state during which judgement and analysis of this kind is particularly acute. Rather, the opposite.

[Cymbeline]

'make good choices in life, then you rarely encounter any reason for outright deception.'

 

This is a simple lesson to live by If you want peace and contentment. Here is a story that you might find interesting (and so night your xMM)

 

Inspirational Teaching Stories

[Pili-Pala]

Interesting. So your thinking is, yes, he lies in other circumstances, but since he hasn't lied to me, then I can trust that he will continue not to lie to me.

 

Clearly a whole lot of women are having affairs with married men so you're not an aberration in your thinking. But this is just not how I operate. My therapist says I am unusually principled and for sure I have trouble relating to any "shades of grey" thinking. I don't want to be with a man who lies, full stop. I don't believe his character is dependent upon my awesomeness or the depth of our love. I believe that lying is evidence that his character is undesirable, no matter when or to whom he gives himself permission to do it.

 

Thankfully my husband and I are not totally mismatched in this area. Lying was out of the norm for him and he did it poorly. He tried to deflect or omit when I asked questions, not lie directly, kind of like when our kids ask if Santa is real and we say, "Hmmm, what do you think?" Of course that doesn't make how he kept me in the dark about things I had a right to know OK. The intent was the same. But at least I know that he views lying as beneath him. Live your life in the open. If you make good choices in life, then you rarely encounter any reason for outright deception.

 

I guess I just mean that this is how I was able to have a relationship with a cheater. As I "justified" it by the fact he never lied to me. I tend to treat and judge all people by how they are with me and what they have done by me. Rightly or wrongly that's how I am. On reflection do I think I was still right to choose that path and have that relationship? No, no in hindsight I don't. I realise now that I should never have got involved with a man who was married and with kids for many of the reason people have stated. I am not proud of my choice. Should I have not got involved with him as he lied to other people? I think it's rare to find a person who does not lie (not impossible and of course many of you seem genuinely to be just that, but rare).

 

One of the things he said he actually liked about us was he found it impossible to lie to me (albeit at that stage of our relationship - not saying he was not capable of changing to be a lair to me at some point and then perhaps my attitude would have changed) and he said was tired of lying and that's was I think a big draw for him, as he was able to be who he was with someone at face value with no secrets. As let's face it lying to everyone must be draining!

 

...Let's propose as a scenario my xMM actually left his marriage, not to be with me, just decided to be on his own. Let's then suppose he mets someone new, and he tells that person he had previously in his last marriage had an affair. By your conclusion does that mean that new person should reject him? Assume once a liar and cheat always a liar and cheat? As if that is what we should all adopt then I feel very sad and hopeless for that.

[Pili-Pala]

I realise I am becoming repetitive, but if you were to have access to marital and familial correspondence and conversations over those two years, you would know that you were indeed lied to. At the very least, there will have been lies of omission, and lies arising from lack of self awareness and from rationalisation.

 

 

I suppose that is one way you could look at it - if one was to assume I did not.