Men and caving early on in a relationship?

[Natalie8]

Hi Gaeta,

Any news?

I have been a bit busy with my own guy drama so didnt contribute much on here lately, but last night i read the whole thead and i just want to say that im sorry. I was very happy to read your first thread about this guy when things were going well.you spend a lot of times on these boards trying to be help others so it was high times you had your turn and got a lucky break. Shame it didnt last long.

Im not sure i would be strong enough to refuse his advances if he came back after a few days. Although there is no excuse for ignoring your messages.

Im still learning about men and caving etc so cant give advice. You will do what you need to do.

I will watch this thread for updates and keep my fingers crossed for you!

[Gaeta]

Hi Gaeta,

Any news?

I have been a bit busy with my own guy drama so didnt contribute much on here lately, but last night i read the whole thead and i just want to say that im sorry. I was very happy to read your first thread about this guy when things were going well.you spend a lot of times on these boards trying to be help others so it was high times you had your turn and got a lucky break. Shame it didnt last long.

Im not sure i would be strong enough to refuse his advances if he came back after a few days. Although there is no excuse for ignoring your messages.

Im still learning about men and caving etc so cant give advice. You will do what you need to do.

I will watch this thread for updates and keep my fingers crossed for you!

 

Thank you Natalie. No news. I went to bed at 8h30 last night and it did me a lot of good.

[Gaeta]

Gaeta, I've been away from LS for a bit and hasn't read the whole thread.

 

I am so sorry about this episode.

 

Please remember when one door closes, another one opens. I wish the very best for you. You are a super lovely, kind-hearted, beautiful person. I know you will find your great guy one day - whether it's this one or the next.

 

Here is a BIG HUG to you. You will get through this!

 

*hugshugshugshugshugshugs*

 

Thank you so much :-)

[GemmaUK]

I've only read bits and pieces and haven't had anyone ghost on me before.

A couple of days without saying hello wouldn't be any issue for me but a week and I'd have figured it was a ghost scenario.

 

I wouldn't be interested in returning to normal if he got in touch at this stage as his integrity has left the room.

 

I'm really sorry all this is going on Gaeta ((hugs)) x

[contel3]

I am really sorry this happened to you.

 

I don't post so much so you probably don't remember me, but I'm always looking forward to your advice!

 

I'm sure you will find someone better. You sound like someone who's got her act together! It's only a matter of time.

 

Good luck =)

[Gaeta]

Thank you for your kind words contel. :-)

[Zapbasket]

Nah. Spend time on Google. There are actually videos with Dr. Gray talking about men "caving" as a result of stress - including losing their job, or even their dog dying. It's not just intimacy dying.

 

You can also go on reddit, the AskMen sub, and look for subs about men withdrawing or caving when stressed, and you'll see hundreds of men saying they disappear for days at a time and withdraw from their girlfriends.

 

This is normal. You don't like it, but it's normal. Common, behavior.

 

And here, G's BF very much gave her very obvious clues that his caving was about to happen, on more than one occasion.

 

I have a strong feeling that if the issue were framed this way...

 

Nah. Spend time on Google. There are actually videos with Dr. Gray talking about women "caving" as a result of stress - including losing their job, or even their dog dying. It's not just intimacy dying.

 

You can also go on reddit, the AskWomen sub, and look for subs about women withdrawing or caving when stressed, and you'll see hundreds of women saying they disappear for days at a time and withdraw from their boyfriends and husbands.

 

This is normal. You don't like it, but it's normal. Common, behavior.

 

And here, this person's girlfriend very much gave him very obvious clues that her caving was about to happen, on more than one occasion.

 

...this idea of "caving" would sound much more immediately ridiculous.

 

Sure, people can withdraw when a life crisis hits, or a depression, and it can be hard on loved ones who want to stand by the person and to help, but they are pushed away. Not taking issue with that. I'm dealing with it with my mom right now, in fact. She just had a hip replacement at age 79, her first surgery, and she is in a care center where she has made clear she does not want visitors and does not want any phone calls. I, living over 1500 miles away, have no way to get updates on how she's doing except through cryptic emails from my uncle, who says she is "fine and generally upbeat." I want to call her; she doesn't want that. It's a bit hard on me, but I get it, respect it, and it's fine.

 

But this thing with Gaeta's guy is different, because when you begin a relationship with someone, there are certain responsibilities you assume, such as keeping someone in the loop about what is going on, including that they need some time and that they absolutely will get in touch soon. And then, the responsible thing to do is to make sure that "soon" is as absolutely as soon as possible. The privilege of a relationship comes with a responsibility to keep the attachment; anything less is just...narcissistic.

 

I'm not being as articulate as I'd like about the thoughts swirling in my head about this, but I do know I feel so sad and tired of hearing of woman after woman left in the dark, trying to believe the best about the man who shunned her for some reason or other, or no reason at all. If I had a son who acted the way Gaeta's guy is acting, I'd be ashamed. Sometimes I feel that men especially are increasingly ill-bred, raised to believe they are the center of everything and that they have no accountability to anyone--often even their own children.

 

Sorry this has happened to you, OP.

[Gaeta]

 

Anyhoo dobie, thanks again for enlightening me, fascinating stuff. Looking forward to doing my own research!

 

In the last couple of days I have read everything available on men caving. If he doesn't get back to me at least this experience will have been educative.

 

There are a couple of type of caving.

 

* You have the short term caving. This one is experienced after you've shared a lot of closeness like after a weekend away together. The man needs to refill his supply of testosterone so he stays away 24hr-48hrs. Oxytocin lowers testosterone in men.

 

* No problem in the relationship but he is questioning if she is the right woman for him. That is usually short term caving.

 

* A fight in the relationship. That caving can last days to 2-3 weeks depending of your history etc etc. I did not concentrate my reading on this type of caving.

 

* A traumatic event. When a man goes through something like losing a job it hits him hard in his ego and identity as a man. He withdraws to think and solve his problems. He can't think of anything else. He also stays away because he doesn't feel man enough, worthy enough, to face his girlfriend. This type of caving can last days-weeks, till he rebuild his self-worth as a man.

 

Not that this helps in my case but it's informative.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Gaeta

[katiegrl]

Thanks Gaeta, did any of the articles address what a woman should do if, let's say he is experiencing a crisis, and goes into his cave......but does NOT tell her beforehand?

 

Is she not supposed to wonder if he's alive ....or whether or not he wishes to continue the relationship? How long is she supposed to wait before realizing he's actually ghosting?

 

And does he get a pass for blowing her off prior and ignoring her attempts to reach out .....because he is experiencing a crisis? Is a woman supposed to just welcome him back open arms if he does these things? Be understanding and forgiving of his thoughtlessness and insensitivity.. because he was experiencing a crisis?

 

Where does HIS responsibility to behave like a decent, respectful human being bcome into play?

 

None of this makes sense to me. As I said, 2-3 days *caving* I understand! I understand the *uncertainty* stage (1-3 months in).....and even understand the longer caving due to stresses ** as long as he advises her beforehand he needs some time alone to figure stuff out.***

 

But this blowing off prior, telling her he will call soon but then not calling ....and ignoring her attempts to reach out I don't understand.

 

To me that's rude and disrespectful .....especially when it happens after only one month of dating. When this happens, one has to question whether or not there actually *is* a crisis at all...because people who are truthful don't just disappear with no word.

 

As there is the guilt of lying and continuing the charade, they just can't keep it up any longer, so they just disappear.

 

JMO

 

Looking forward to researching this on my own though.

 

Glad you got a good night's sleep!!!!!

Edited January 16, 2016 by katiegrl

[GemmaUK]

Maybe it's just me but at my age (46 soon to be 47) I wouldn't put this much thought or analysis into things and certainly not a month in.

Sorry if this sounds harsh Gaeta, it's just how I would deal rather than a reflection upon you.

A month in I would also have not slept with a guy I would wait and see if his story of himself matched his actions.

 

Twice I mistook what I saw..twice I had no clue I had encountered a controller simply because I had not learned about that type of guy. I have now.

 

No doubt at some point I will come across a ghoster too.

[Gaeta]

Maybe it's just me but at my age (46 soon to be 47) I wouldn't put this much thought or analysis into things and certainly not a month in.

Sorry if this sounds harsh Gaeta, it's just how I would deal rather than a reflection upon you.

A month in I would also have not slept with a guy I would wait and see if his story of himself matched his actions.

 

Gemma you know I have been looking for a long time, and I met many men, and it never makes it past 4-5 dates, never makes it to exclusivity.

 

Very very few times it made it to exclusivity + many dates, days and nights spent together. It's normal I am disappointed and thinking twice before blocking him. It's not the same as if we had dated 1 month and only had 4 dates.

[GemmaUK]

Gemma you know I have been looking for a long time, and I met many men, and it never makes it past 4-5 dates, never makes it to exclusivity.

 

Very very few times it made it to exclusivity + many dates, days and nights spent together. It's normal I am disappointed and thinking twice before blocking him. It's not the same as if we had dated 1 month and only had 4 dates.

 

My lovely I want sooo much that this stops happening for you. xx

 

I know, get what you are saying.

Love you, you deserve a good..no great man.

All I can think is maybe you are too eager or let yourself open a wee bit much.

I am so..hmm..yeah let me think... and I say this to guys.

I don't deliver my bod nor my emotions early. I also have no expectations.

I rarely get my heart hurt. V rarely.

[Gaeta]

Thanks Gaeta, did any of the articles address what a woman should do if, let's say he is experiencing a crisis, and goes into his cave......but does NOT tell her beforehand?

 

Apparently caving is not something men can rationalize. I also read they are not even aware of the length of time they cave. They snap out of it then realize 'sh$t was I really out of touch with her for a whole week!'. Caving is like a knee jerk reaction, you can't rationalize it.

 

Monday it will be 6 days with no phone calls. I think then it is safe to turn this into a disappearing act.

[GemmaUK]

Sod the caving!

 

You don't want a guy who caves and neither do I.

Normal people do not go uber silent when in a RS like this.

 

 

You and me have different contact needs but heck..!!

 

If you lost your job would you be completely out of contact and ignoring his texts a week later?

[Gaeta]

If you lost your job would you be completely out of contact and ignoring his texts a week later?

 

I can't apply to men my woman's way of dealing with stress. Women deal with stress by sharing with their friends and wanting their boyfriend to listen to them.

 

Men deal with stress in a different way.

 

I don't think all men cave but I think a certain type do cave. You are right in saying is it something I want to deal with long term.

[katiegrl]

Apparently caving is not something men can rationalize. I also read they are not even aware of the length of time they cave. They snap out of it then realize 'sh$t was I really out of touch with her for a whole week!'. Caving is like a knee jerk reaction, you can't rationalize it.

 

Monday it will be 6 days with no phone calls. I think then it is safe to turn this into a disappearing act.

 

IMO if less women tolerated this behavior (and I am talking about anything over 3 days no contact) and weren't always so forgiving and eager to welcome him back...perhaps these men *would* be aware of it, and explore why they do it......and rationize it!

 

Women tolerate far too much BS from men IMO....which only serves to keep men unaware and oblivious to how their actions affect their partners in a negative way. So the behavior, the caving, the disappearing will continue.

 

Women are told to "make nice*, be understanding, be forgiving ....men will be men.

 

Just me, but no thanks.

 

I do hope he contacts you this weekend though, since I know that is what you want...

 

((hugs))

[GemmaUK]

I can't apply to men my woman's way of dealing with stress. Women deal with stress by sharing with their friends and wanting their boyfriend to listen to them.

 

Men deal with stress in a different way.

 

I don't think all men cave but I think a certain type do cave. You are right in saying is it something I want to deal with long term.

 

 

I don't deal with stress by sharing it with friends, never have.

I cave a bit, never for days on end though.

[losangelena]

I can't apply to men my woman's way of dealing with stress. Women deal with stress by sharing with their friends and wanting their boyfriend to listen to them.

 

Men deal with stress in a different way.

 

I don't think all men cave but I think a certain type do cave. You are right in saying is it something I want to deal with long term.

 

I think this is exactly right.

 

It's kind of too bad that more men aren't weighing in on this thread, because I think it's very hard for women to fully understand caving, because it's the exact opposite of what we do. A woman thinks that being ignored while a man caves is rude and hurtful, but the man literally isn't thinking about it at all. That's what my takeaway was when I was reading up on caving—to understand that a man's caving wasn't a personal affront to me, it didn't have anything to do with me!

 

I think all men do this in some way, some more extreme than others, and some who are much better at communicating what's happening before it happens. For the ones who aren't good at it though, they don't see it as rude, it just doesn't occur to them.

 

All that being said, I think it is hard for a woman to deal with, and if that's the case, then it's up to her to either deal with it, try to reach some kind of compromise, or to not date a man like that.

[losangelena]

Gaeta, I don't know if you've stumbled on this book during all your research, but it's called How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It: Patricia Love, Steven Stosny: 9780767923187: Amazon.com: Books.

 

Obviously, it's a bit off-topic, but they do a great job of explaining a man's shame response and how they avoid it at all costs, which (I think) is what drives a lot of caving, the kind that's in response to trauma anyway (like job loss). Might not change the outcome of this particular situation, but does put a man's behavior in a different, more understandable perspective.

[katiegrl]

Yeah gonna have to read up on this further.

 

Specifically, how to differentiate between caving and ghosting?

 

Is there a certain time limit on the caving?

 

Like after one week, then it's not caving anymore, but ghosting?

 

And can a man start out caving, but if a women interrupts his cave time, will he then become so annoyed, turned off or whatevs, that it turns to ghosting?

 

I am not being flip with these questions, I am seriously confused.

 

But I will read up.....

 

Not looking forward to getting out there again...think that's gonna have to wait a bit.

[Gaeta]

Yeah gonna have to read up on this further.

 

Specifically, how to differentiate between caving and ghosting?

 

Is there a certain time limit on the caving?

 

No, that would be too easy wouldn't it :-)

 

 

And can a man start out caving, but if a women interrupts his cave time, will he then become so annoyed, turned off or whatevs, that it turns to ghosting?

Yes definitely. More you try to reach to a man that is caving more time he'll take to come out.

 

I'll try to find you the John Gray video on the man that lost his job.

 

There it is:

 

http://www.marsvenus.com/blog/john-gray/how-long-should-a-man-stay-in-his-cave

[losangelena]

No, that would be too easy wouldn't it :-)

 

 

Yes definitely. More you try to reach to a man that is caving more time he'll take to come out.

 

I'll try to find you the John Gray video on the man that lost his job.

 

John Gray's videos are also a fantastic resource.

[Gaeta]

OOps that's the video about the man losing his job

 

John Gray - Relationship Advice - My Boyfriend Is Stressed and Depressed

[getsmartie]

Hi Gaets,

 

I was following along and actually remembered when all was wonderful with him. Was happy for you, I also read how many duds you've dated. Sorry to hear about this outcome....was hoping this man was it. There is however a big difference between being a male and being a man, one being gender and the other being desirable. His behavior just doesnt seem like a man, certainly not one I'd be all over.

 

This story makes me thankful I'm in a relationship but geez I do remember having a lots of guys similar to this...my opinion and I hope I'm wrong but I think he's ghosting.

 

Lets just say I'm not wrong though and he is indeed caving. I still wouldn't be interested in continuing the relationship. Judging by some things you've said about relationships in general do you really want someone like this?

[Eternal Sunshine]

I deal with crisis on my own, my urge is never to talk to friends or a man I am seeing. I don't like being weak or vulnerable so I guess I "cave". I drop off the radar for days.

 

Having said that, when I am dating someone that I really like, I tell him that I am dealing with something and to let me have a few days to clear my head. If I am dating someone that I can afford to lose, I just take space without explanation.