truthtripper Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? I recommend to read the Book of Ecclesiastes. Solomon concludes that without God, all existence is meaningless. It all ends up the same. Suffering is just as pointless as joy. Increasing knowledge, wealth, and children is just as pointless as being poor, ignorant, and alone. He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Edited January 24, 2016 by TheFinalWord 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Satu Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 There are no humans yet. Humans are what comes next. After us. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Why did God create human consciousness? To make us suffer like all good Catholics should. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MightyPen Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? You ask great questions (and no I'm not some Christian trying to lure you in to some trap!). Hell, I thought about similar questions when I left religion like 15 years ago. So "God" gives his creations (humans) free will, and then he punishes them (with fiery torment for all eternity?!? I mean, that's as BAD as it gets) if they dare exercise their free will in a way that doesn't please him. ANNNNND to make it worse, God already knows what's going to happen, so he's setting us up to fail. He knows which people are going to screw up (in his opinion) and he knows which people will choose to believe or not believe in him, so really if you follow this argument to its logical conclusion, when I was born, I was basically screwed!! Hell, I would have been better off not having been born, because 80 years on this rock wouldn't outweigh fiery torment for allllllll time. And looking at it from the macro view, yes he knew that people would molest children and rape women and torture men and torture non-human animals by the billions, and he still said, "Yep, let's get this thing rolling!" I mean, if you were going to start an ant farm, and you knew BEFORE you even started that they would all fight each other and torture each other and rape each other and molest each other over and over and over and over and over, would you start the ant farm??? Edited January 25, 2016 by MightyPen 2 Link to post Share on other sites
jen1447 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Thinking you're gonna outfox god intellectually is very Philosophy 101. ("Why does god cause earthquakes," "god must be a total a-hole bc he let my dog die," etc.) It's pretty much the domain of all first year philosophy students to think they're asking poignant questions no one has ever thought of before and that 'gotchas' are easy. If you're a good Christian you're just supposed to shut up and take everything on faith. God isn't a noob, he's got it all figured out (like a billion years before you were born), and there are things "known to god" that you couldn't even begin to comprehend. So yeah, asking "why" in the context of our limited understanding, especially w/a dash of you're-so-dumb in a theoretically loaded question, is pretty pretentious and silly when you think of it. (I don't actually believe in god and so the accept-it-on-faith thing is moot for me, but there's some merit in the notion that intro level epistemology questions are better left unasked. ) Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 Thinking you're gonna outfox god intellectually is very Philosophy 101. ("Why does god cause earthquakes," "god must be a total a-hole bc he let my dog die," etc.) It's pretty much the domain of all first year philosophy students to think they're asking poignant questions no one has ever thought of before and that 'gotchas' are easy. If you're a good Christian you're just supposed to shut up and take everything on faith. God isn't a noob, he's got it all figured out (like a billion years before you were born), and there are things "known to god" that you couldn't even begin to comprehend. So yeah, asking "why" in the context of our limited understanding, especially w/a dash of you're-so-dumb in a theoretically loaded question, is pretty pretentious and silly when you think of it. (I don't actually believe in god and so the accept-it-on-faith thing is moot for me, but there's some merit in the notion that intro level epistemology questions are better left unasked. ) I never took philosophy at uni so I think I'm doing pretty well My apologies if my arrogant question offended you. Link to post Share on other sites
jen1447 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I never took philosophy at uni so I think I'm doing pretty well My apologies if my arrogant question offended you. It didn't. I was moreso demonstrating a point by way of sarcasm. Link to post Share on other sites
MightyPen Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) It didn't. I was moreso demonstrating a point by way of sarcasm. OP, there was nothing arrogant about asking a completely logical (although certainly not a complicated) question! Our brains are built to ask questions, discover new stuff, challenge old ideas, etc. Although Jen is apparently not a religious person, the VAST majority of people who say things like "Oh just trust God and rely on faith alone" are religious people who have no satisfactory answers for even the simplest questions that challenge their worldviews. To keep their heads from exploding, they tend to avoid the tough questions and focus on the "mystery" that is God. Geez I wish I could create a belief system like that. Get people to focus their entire worldviews on internally inconsistent and factually dubious statements and then say, "Don't use your logic to challenge my statements! Appreciate the mystery! Rely on faith alone! Oh and by the way I promise you wonderful things (after you are dead and when they don't happen you can't blame me). Edited January 25, 2016 by MightyPen 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 Well yes I think that's the most accurate response as well, but I was trying to address the OP's questions in a way that might line up better with his/her current belief systems (of course I couldn't tell if OP is a religious person with doubts or a non-religious person just trying to make a point). I was baptised catholic. My family are supposedly religious, well, they like others to think so ie-they attend church every week and pray the rosary. But there is also a lot of dysfunction in my family which I feel they use religion to hide behind. My pedophile grandfather abused many children, while deceiving everyone that he was a pious man. The rest of my family did their best to keep up the clean image, until I came out with the truth about 15 years ago. My family reject me as a result. It has caused me great emotional pain, hence my seeming arrogance/spite towards God. What I'm going through also renders me more sensitive to the world's problems in general, as it would for others who have PTSD. Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 There are no humans yet. Humans are what comes next. After us. This is consoling, thanks Satu. Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 You ask great questions (and no I'm not some Christian trying to lure you in to some trap!). Hell, I thought about similar questions when I left religion like 15 years ago. So "God" gives his creations (humans) free will, and then he punishes them (with fiery torment for all eternity?!? I mean, that's as BAD as it gets) if they dare exercise their free will in a way that doesn't please him. ANNNNND to make it worse, God already knows what's going to happen, so he's setting us up to fail. He knows which people are going to screw up (in his opinion) and he knows which people will choose to believe or not believe in him, so really if you follow this argument to its logical conclusion, when I was born, I was basically screwed!! Hell, I would have been better off not having been born, because 80 years on this rock wouldn't outweigh fiery torment for allllllll time. And looking at it from the macro view, yes he knew that people would molest children and rape women and torture men and torture non-human animals by the billions, and he still said, "Yep, let's get this thing rolling!" I mean, if you were going to start an ant farm, and you knew BEFORE you even started that they would all fight each other and torture each other and rape each other and molest each other over and over and over and over and over, would you start the ant farm??? Fantastic validation, just what I need right now! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 These kind of 'questions with no answer' are part of the reason I decided to switch canoes mid-stream and leave the RCatholic canoe behind, and sally forth instead, paddles a-paddlin', in my Buddhism canoe. At least I get logical answers there. All this "God moves in mysterious ways" is just another way of saying "We haven't a clue, we haven't thought of a logical, universally-acceptable response, yet....In the meantime, here's the habitual pacifier, 'There are just some things we ain't s'posed ta know'...." 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Tayla Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Somethings have yet to receive answers that fit into the confines of how we perceive. Einstein admitted he knew little. Link to post Share on other sites
MightyPen Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 These kind of 'questions with no answer' are part of the reason I decided to switch canoes mid-stream and leave the RCatholic canoe behind, and sally forth instead, paddles a-paddlin', in my Buddhism canoe. At least I get logical answers there. All this "God moves in mysterious ways" is just another way of saying "We haven't a clue, we haven't thought of a logical, universally-acceptable response, yet....In the meantime, here's the habitual pacifier, 'There are just some things we ain't s'posed ta know'...." Do Buddhists have to believe in the divinity of Buddha? I've heard of people practicing the Buddhist lifestyle with meditation, vegetarianism, etc., without any diving aspect or worshipping anything. Not to belittle it at all, but there was an episode of The Walking Dead where a character tried to adopt a Buddhist-like lifestyle, and it was very appealing to me. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Do Buddhists have to believe in the divinity of Buddha? No. Because the Buddha emphasised he was not divine, eternal, omnipotent or all-powerful He made it quite clear he was absolutely none of these things. The Buddha is not considered Divine, in any tradition... Only those which seem to mix some kind of exotic magic, or shamanism, have some pretty odd ideas, but no, in general, not at all. I've heard of people practicing the Buddhist lifestyle with meditation, vegetarianism, etc., without any diving aspect or worshipping anything. That's right... As explained above.The Buddha is not a god, or divine. It's the only major religion on the planet that does NOT have an eternal, permanently-abiding God-head... Not to belittle it at all, but there was an episode of The Walking Dead where a character tried to adopt a Buddhist-like lifestyle, and it was very appealing to me.There are many who believe Buddhism is a cop-out, and very pessimistic in its outlook. Both assumptions are incorrect. It's all very well putting everything - your trust, your surrendering, your 'sins' to something "out there" (*points vaguely in a kind of waving upward direction*) But it gets a lot harder when the buck stops, and you have to take total responsibility for everything you think, say and do, "in here" (*points to head and heart*). When you have nothing to lay it all onto, you have to step up to the plate and deal with it all, yourself, because that's where it all starts. Buddhism looks at things in Exactly The Way They Are. It strips away the wishes, desires, expectations and false perceptions and tells it like it is. At least you can take all the credit when it all goes right though... 3 Link to post Share on other sites
MightyPen Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Buddhism looks at things in Exactly The Way They Are. It strips away the wishes, desires, expectations and false perceptions and tells it like it is. At least you can take all the credit when it all goes right though... Well it has that in common with atheism! I will seriously read more about Buddhism because I've always thought that Buddhists were the only religious people who weren't a little...you know. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Well it has that in common with atheism! I will seriously read more about Buddhism because I've always thought that Buddhists were the only religious people who weren't a little...you know. Let's not go any more off topic. Pm me for any assistance in reading matter, if you want. Link to post Share on other sites
burnt Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 These kind of 'questions with no answer' are part of the reason I decided to switch canoes mid-stream and leave the RCatholic canoe behind, and sally forth instead, paddles a-paddlin', in my Buddhism canoe. Incidentally, for people who are indoctrinated into Buddhism form birth (for being children of buddhist parents) might have gotten used that idea of not asking questions with no answers. But for many people, who change religions or give up religions go through a long phase of existential crisis, questioning the unanswerable questions and it is that very questioning/doubting that leads them to finding a different spiritual 'canoe' to finally float in a different direction. I would rather be living in a world where people NEVER stop asking question--whether or not the questions have logical/rational answers. The answers are not really as important diving into the questions. I think behind every great thought, the actual driving force is a great question, not the answer. Didn't Buddha himself go through that phase before reaching his spiritual enlightenment? (I might be wrong in this--pardon me if I am). At least I get logical answers there. Perhaps I misunderstood something (based on my limited understanding of Buddhism) … Buddhism doesn't provide logical answers. Perhaps the only logical answer is accepting that we do not (or cannot for now) have any logical answer for all those 'unanswerable questions' and therefore learn to accept living without having answers to everything. Little knowledge is a dangerous thing--perhaps I'm completely wrong in my limited knowledge of Buddhism--in which case strike the whole post. By the way, totally off tangent--I dreamt of you Tara Maiden two days ago. You were this sage like person with long white hair (!) sitting on the sofa in front of me; I can't remember what you were saying, but something wise I'm sure 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) Your comments are both apposite and insightful, burnt, and I would respond, but I honestly don't want to make this thread 'about Buddhism' insofar as that was not the crux of the original question, although Consciousness plays a huge part in Buddhist teachings - albeit in a different context or interpretation. However, you make excellent points: Points I may have made myself had I elaborated in my original response. Points you are quite correct in making, thereby pointing out the omissions in my post. I left it simplistic, in order to convey my own rationale, but I omitted much detail. As for your dream, it is such an uncannily accurate image, I'm wondering if we've met? (Please tell me I didn't have the flowing beard....!) (New thread in the making, here.) Edited January 26, 2016 by TaraMaiden2 New thread link 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Justanaverageguy Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) IMO, that's not even a valid question, since there is no god and human consciousness evolved through natural selection. I do not like to use the term "God" due to the amount of garbage and crazy baggage that has been attached to it. But I do believe in a concept that would equate with that term. I find that people often like to use the "craziness" of some dogmatic religions as proof that there is no god. For me it is merely proof that humans are limited in our ability to understand and comprehend such a concept. If you studied any philosophy Plato's Timaeus is a text that is more in line with my concept of god. I think of "god" in terms of a "living universe". Some people, particularly in western science, perceive humans to be a separate living creation in a vast lifeless universe that is merely dotted with other life forms that miraculously emerged from lifeless chaos by cosmic chance. I view the universe differently. As a living thing in which all that could possibly emerge from it is other smaller living things. Evolution is not a fluke - it is just a repetition of an infinite ongoing process to build complexity and intelligence at ever diminishing scales. In the same way your body is a living thing made up of many smaller living parts (heart, lungs, brain - down to individual living cells). So too is the earth a living thing made up of many smaller living things (animals, plants, insects, volcanoes, weather systems, rivers etc). At each scale the level of complexity is increased. We humans don't see through this frame because we experience consciousness as our individual "self". There fore we see ourselves only as separate from other living things. We don't see the zoomed out bigger picture of how life works to combine seperate smaller parts into something larger. The view that we adopt when looking at how the separate living cells in our body combine to create our own larger and more complex living self and consciousness. So God to me is simply the larger living entity that emerges when you combine everything in the universe - it is not seperate from it but a combination of all. I love the artwork of M. C. Escher which I think encapsulates this idea perfectly. I especially like the "The drawing hands" where the creator of the picture is actually part of it - not separate from it. To me Human consciousness compared to the god-head is like comparing the consciousness of a single cell in your body to that of the entire human being. Edited January 29, 2016 by Justanaverageguy Link to post Share on other sites
Digger123 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Wisdom supersedes logic. Without suffering you cannot gain wisdom. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
loveweary11 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Why did god create humnan consciousness? It was a practical joke. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Wisdom supersedes logic. Without suffering you cannot gain wisdom. People who have been abused and tortured have to battle the effects of trauma their whole lives. How can betrayal and loss of trust in humankind be conducive to gaining wisdom? And what about all the abused and tortured animals suffering at the hands of the ruthless money-hungry? What wisdom do they gain? Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 People who have been abused and tortured have to battle the effects of trauma their whole lives. How can betrayal and loss of trust in humankind be conducive to gaining wisdom? It can be done. It depends on the mind-set inherent BEFORE the trauma. If you read accounts from some Holocaust survivors, or the monks and nuns tortured by the Chinese after their release. you'd see.... And what about all the abused and tortured animals suffering at the hands of the ruthless money-hungry? What wisdom do they gain? The animals which survive learn to mistrust and be more wary, which is a survival instinct. Wisdom is not a prevalent characteristic of animals. It's Apples and oranges. Link to post Share on other sites
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