At a Tangent from 'Consciousness'...

[TaraMaiden2]

This thread has been started because of comments made in this thread:

 

Posted by burnt:

 

Originally Posted by TaraMaiden2

These kind of 'questions with no answer' are part of the reason I decided to switch canoes mid-stream and leave the RCatholic canoe behind, and sally forth instead, paddles a-paddlin', in my Buddhism canoe.

Incidentally, for people who are indoctrinated into Buddhism form birth (for being children of buddhist parents) might have gotten used that idea of not asking questions with no answers.

 

But for many people, who change religions or give up religions go through a long phase of existential crisis, questioning the unanswerable questions and it is that very questioning/doubting that leads them to finding a different spiritual 'canoe' to finally float in a different direction.

 

I would rather be living in a world where people NEVER stop asking question--whether or not the questions have logical/rational answers. The answers are not really as important diving into the questions. I think behind every great thought, the actual driving force is a great question, not the answer.

 

Didn't Buddha himself go through that phase before reaching his spiritual enlightenment? (I might be wrong in this--pardon me if I am).

 

I can't personally speak for those brought up in Buddhism from the word 'go'. I have occasionally spoken to some, and it seems the 'flavour' of Buddhism is somewhat removed from that which we know or understand in the West, today.

Our views of Buddhism stem largely from initially Tibetan Buddhism, with influence also from Theravada Buddhism.

The Buddha himself stated he would teach according to his audience; given that the vast majority of Buddhists in the West are "converts" rather than born into it, I would say that the initial logical premise of the vocation, together with the absence of a 'God with a hitting-stick' is extremely attractive. At the start.

But yes, I too would prefer to keep asking. I just know, for myself, that sometimes, there comes a point where I say to myself "Jeesh, relax already, enough with the questions! Would having the answer enhance your practice? Yes? Then sit! It will come, one day! No? Then sit! Just Be!"

 

At least I get logical answers there.

Perhaps I misunderstood something (based on my limited understanding of Buddhism) …

Buddhism doesn't provide logical answers.

Perhaps the only logical answer is accepting that we do not (or cannot for now) have any logical answer for all those 'unanswerable questions' and therefore learn to accept living without having answers to everything.

 

Buddhism provides answers, but sometimes, they either provoke deeper questions, or are too unfathomable for my simple little mind.

Anmd my Mind, when it comes to discussing Buddhism, is extremely basic and simple.

 

But that is not necessarily a bad thing, I am comforted to know.

A Theravada Bikkhuni once said to me - "All that matters is knowing and understanding the Four, the Eight and the five. Simplify! Everything you need is right in there!"

 

I've tried to not be lax in my practice. I've tried to learn, falteringly.

I am not one for deep, philosophical, probing questions into the existence of Self, Not-Self, Dependent Origination and the intricate workings of Kamma, or the knotty question of re-birth.

I know what I have found for myself, is working for me.

I cannot persuade or dissuade anyone else, with regard to what they wish to do or learn, practice or take to heart.

 

Buddhism isn't about believing.

It's about knowing for one's self, and having Faith in the Dhamma.

Faith as in 'Confidence'. Not the same type of 'Faith' as that one would have in a theistic religion.

Never cease questioning.

In one way, or another, at some point - if not immediately - the answer will come.

 

It may not come in the way one envisages - but one day, things will be clearer.

[Tayla]

Thanks TaraMaiden2.

 

Enjoyed your explanation without the preaching.

 

I'm not versed in this chosen confidence practice. Would you have any recommendations for reading , audio, or authors that can be of help in this way of life?

 

I doubt there is a buddhist book for dummies although oddly it might actually befitting for someone of my mindset .. on such a topic...

[TaraMaiden2]

Thanks TaraMaiden2.

No, thank YOU for commenting.

 

Enjoyed your explanation without the preaching.

I shy away from it, as much as is feasible. If ever I DO get preachy, for goodness' sake thwack me with a well-aimed wet kipper....!

 

I'm not versed in this chosen confidence practice. Would you have any recommendations for reading , audio, or authors that can be of help in this way of life?

 

There are several authors whose works you may like to explore.

 

One of the best, insofar as dealing with day-to-day issues head on, is a prominent western Nun (in the Tibetan tradition), Pema Chodron.

 

Another, Vietnamese Zen Master, Thich Nhat Hahn (affectionately referred to as TNH!) speaks of Meditation and different ways to stay grounded...

 

 

I doubt there is a buddhist book for dummies although oddly it might actually befitting for someone of my mindset .. on such a topic..

Well.... Now you mention it....!

[TaraMaiden2]

Also, permit me to mention the 'Awakening' Trilogy, by a Western Lama (originally Jewish), Lama Surya Das.

 

Awakening the Buddha within

Awakening the Sacred

Awakening the Buddhist Heart.

 

They're anecdotal, easy-to-read and both entertaining and informative.

Some consider him a little...."schmaltzy" (to use a Yiddish word, and one he would be familiar with!) and that he has introduced too much of a Western attitude to an Eastern practice, but the work has its definite merits.

 

Lastly, The book that had me transfixed so many years ago, by Sogyal Rinpoché, which has proven to be a major, international best-seller (reprinted and updated at its tenth anniversary) is

"The Tibetan Book of Living & Dying".

Blew me out the water and knocked me for six....

[Tayla]

No, thank YOU for commenting.

 

 

I shy away from it, as much as is feasible. If ever I DO get preachy, for goodness' sake thwack me with a well-aimed wet kipper....!

 

 

 

There are several authors whose works you may like to explore.

 

One of the best, insofar as dealing with day-to-day issues head on, is a prominent western Nun (in the Tibetan tradition), Pema Chodron.

 

Another, Vietnamese Zen Master, Thich Nhat Hahn (affectionately referred to as TNH!) speaks of Meditation and different ways to stay grounded...

 

 

 

Well.... Now you mention it....!

 

Heavens to Betsy! They do have one of those books...

Well, its probably best to start at the local library for the authors and books of suggestive reading. Like most things...I need to crawl before I can walk in this life choice....

 

I practice Yoga...for stress...and seem to think this may compliment it....or challenge the body...either way..its going to be intriguing...

[loveweary11]

Meditation Question:

 

I have a personal, atheist/Buddhist philosophy. A bit of a bastardization of both.

 

I very much dislike meditation for some reason.

 

I can ponder questions/thoughts readily while relaxing in general or doing a repetitive task (showering, washing dishes).

 

Is it completely necessary to devote time to meditation, when I already have go devote an hour a day to exercise, a couple hours a day to cooking healthy, etc?

 

I function quite well without meditation and my mind processes out things while I'm sleeping. Quite often I wake up with answers to questions, solutions to complex problems, new engineering designs, solutions to problems in physics when in school...

 

All my more spiritual and yogi type friends have meditation as a cornerstone of their lives.

 

I removed the chaotic from my life in such a way that just living is a pleasure in itself. Stress is minimal.

 

I can also sit with a clear mind and my eyes open feeling the beauty of the Earth as a look upon it.

 

Do I *have* to meditate to make way in Buddism?

[TaraMaiden2]

Meditation Question:

 

I have a personal, atheist/Buddhist philosophy. A bit of a bastardization of both.

 

I very much dislike meditation for some reason.

 

I can ponder questions/thoughts readily while relaxing in general or doing a repetitive task (showering, washing dishes).

 

Is it completely necessary to devote time to meditation, when I already have go devote an hour a day to exercise, a couple hours a day to cooking healthy, etc?

 

Counter-question: What do you consider meditation to be, exactly?

 

I function quite well without meditation and my mind processes out things while I'm sleeping. Quite often I wake up with answers to questions, solutions to complex problems, new engineering designs, solutions to problems in physics when in school...

Some might say that's CONTEMPLation, not MEDItation

 

All my more spiritual and yogi type friends have meditation as a cornerstone of their lives.

You're not anyone else. And nobody else is you....

I removed the chaotic from my life in such a way that just living is a pleasure in itself. Stress is minimal.

Yes, but are you happy?

 

I can also sit with a clear mind and my eyes open feeling the beauty of the Earth as a look upon it.

How long for?

 

Do I *have* to meditate to make way in Buddism?

No.

You don't *have* to do anything.

But rather like a lorry-load of wood, that boat ain't gonna build itself.

 

I refer to my initial (counter) question:

 

What do you think Meditation is?

What do you suppose it entails?

[loveweary11]

Counter-question: What do you consider meditation to be, exactly?

 

 

Some might say that's CONTEMPLation, not MEDItation

 

 

You're not anyone else. And nobody else is you....

 

Yes, but are you happy?

 

 

Yes. Definitely content. Happy to me... is an emotional level above "baseline content" that is not sustainable over more than a couple hours. I am not unhappy. I am content. (have very, very few wants/desires)

 

I consider meditation to be a set aside period of time where you silence the mind and be/feel clearly, possibly with some awareness of one's own body/breathing.

 

 

 

How long for?

At least an hour. Possibly a couple hours.

 

 

 

No.

You don't *have* to do anything.

But rather like a lorry-load of wood, that boat ain't gonna build itself.

 

I refer to my initial (counter) question:

 

What do you think Meditation is?

What do you suppose it entails?

 

Boy do I wish my boat was made off wood from a labor perspective. Soo much easier.

 

Question answered above. Meditation is a quieting of the mind, possibly with some awareness of breathing/body.

[loveweary11]

Speaking to "happy" for a moment, there is an old Ren and Stimpy clip that comes to mind.

 

Stimpy sees Ren feeling unhappy one day, so he forcefully slams a "happy helmet" device on Ren. This makes Ren happy at all times, which is extremely painful.

 

 

Happy is a euphoric state above baseline content that is not sustainable due to emotional fatigue.

 

Like being "wide awake and full of energy", it's about balance.

[TaraMaiden2]

"Hours" is a tall order.

 

Me? Whenever I get 5 minutes or so spare time, I'll sit and calm the mind.

I don't necessarily 'still' the mind.

 

It's quality, not quantity.

 

When you're "in the Zone" and you realise that you've been focusing on a specific task for XX minutes, without your mind wandering, that's pretty much what meditation is.

It's not sitting in a lotus position, hands upturned on knees, eyes closed.

 

meditation could be sweeping the yard, doing the washing up, painting the wall, kneading the dough.

 

It's action without commentary.

 

If commentary - or thoughts - come up, observe them, note them, and let them subside.

 

Most people 'snowball' the thoughts. They'll think about one thing, which will roll into another, and another, and before you know it, the head's full of chatter, and you've even forgotten what the trigger-thought was all about!

 

But meditation can be done walking along the beach, sorting a whole bag of assorted nuts and bolts into sizes, or varnishing the deck....

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

'Happy' is a difficult definition to pin down.

 

I don't think anyone can sustain 'happy' 100% of the time. As you say - it's a painful exercise.

 

But it's more about looking at the guy in the mirror and being comfortable in the skin, overall pretty much satisfied with how things are hanging, and going to bed at night, contented with how the day went.

 

Because contentment can be attained even if everything around us is going titz-up.

 

It's a question of how we react to outside stuff.... Whether we can understand that everything we tackle and overcome, is temporary anyway, so if it won't be a big deal in a year, or a month.... why make it a big deal now?

 

Sure, deal with it. But don't let it over-come you....

[loveweary11]

Thank you, Tara.

 

My yogi/spiritual type friends always stress that I need to meditate.

 

Yet, their lives outside of meditation are often filled with emotional rollercoasters, instability, chaos and stormy interpersonal relationships.

 

I have always felt I didn't need to set aside time to meditate. Hell, I meditate half the day by your definition.

 

Hours is realistic for me. Today I spent a little over an hour looking at clouds, the teal color of the water and just enjoying what life provides as scenery. Feeling the wind blow the little hairs on my skin. Breathing the fresh air from the ocean. I find the sparkle on calmish water from the sun or moon to be especially relaxing.

 

My mind has very little chatter. I often see people thinking like you've described... getting into a little anxiety spiral as their thoughts spin out of control.

 

I like to be around people like that because I enjoy helping them calm their minds. I'm quite good at it. It's fun to see what makes them tick/stress, then slow them down.

 

I often think of nothing. Just the task at hand or looking at the beautiful scenery, enjoying it.

 

Then, I'm polar opposite when it's time for work. Laser focused type A personality.

 

Glad my regular clear mind time counts.

 

I had always felt that like massage, I didn't need meditation. I'm a giver in both areas.

 

I joined this forum immediately during a divorce, then make threads when I'm having crisis moments. Pretty sure no one here understands the real me... the 99% of the time I'm not in a crisis tied to emotions from my divorce.

 

I think those are finally gone though. I feel so at home back on the water.... there has been a huge change getting back out here and taking the pressure to finish this boat on a deadline away. Feels amazing.

Edited January 30, 2016 by loveweary11

[TaraMaiden2]

There's a Buddhist dictum which always resonates with me.

 

"Is everything wonderful? It's ok, don't worry - it will pass!

 

Is everything disastrous? It's ok, don't worry - it will pass!"

 

A way to remember to stay in 'The Present Moment' is to bear in mind that pretty much, this moment is all we honestly have.

 

I too have known a fair share of 'Peace Talkers' whose lives have been far from Peace in Action.... Sometimes, the most difficult advice to take, is one's own.

Those with the Best Advice, very often have the Worst record.

 

 

With Metta. X

[Doop]

Ok, so I was asked by taramaiden2 to share some of my views regarding religion here. So I will try to provide those in this post.

 

Firstly, I'm an atheist. I'm an atheist who holds a passionate contempt for religion and the overall teachings and implications therein. However, I will not try to deny that there are SOME dispensations of good and accurate teachings within most religious texts, albeit very botched and arbitrary. I would like to make a distinction between that claim and the claim that these ancient holy books are indicative of the best and ultimate wisdom and morality available (as religious people would like to believe). Clearly they are not- far from it.

 

Tidbits of positive information can be derived from many different sources. Just because one source happens to contain a passage that the general consensus of humanity would deem to be good or useful does not mean that the entire work is correct on all accounts, or that the particular message is good because that particular book says it. For instance, the bible says something to the effect of "treating others how you would like to be treated", but it also says homosexuality, apostasy, premarital sex (for women), among many other things are punishable by death. Also, it not only allows for slavery, but it explicitly mandates it. I believe this effectively demonstrates my point. Fortune cookies usually contain general and generic positive messages. But no one feels that we must exclusively and indefinitely turn to fortune cookies to derive an understanding of morality. The same is true for the bible or other ancient holy books. I have no problem with the fact that the bible gets a few things generally correct. But that fact does not warrant organizing one's entire life around its tenets. I don't mean to pick on Christianity. It just happens to be the one I was raised on, and the most prominent religion in my country (USA).

 

I personally grew up in rural Tennessee, a very white, conservative, bible-belt state. I re-thought my beliefs at about the age of 20 and ultimately became an atheist. I'm not sure what led me to such a sharp change, but I'm relieved and happy that it happened. I can honestly report to those of you still on the religious side, the grass is definitely greener on the other side. Life is so much better when your mind is not infected with absurd beliefs. Having a better understanding of reality and reason is so much better than consoling oneself with ancient, mythological nonsense against the pains of reality. Being able to understand the nature of evidence, logic, reason, science, skepticism, critical-thinking and reality, and having a true understanding of why these things are so important to us as human beings is much better than buying into ridiculous notions of Gods and mythical, cosmic intervention.

 

After coming out the other side, it is crystal clear to me now that the biggest problem imposed upon us as a human race is religion. It is ultimately responsible for the division, destruction, oppression, hatred, bigotry, homophobia, sexism, xenophobia, and the "us against them" mentality we have always seemed to possess. All religions make the same claims about being the one and only revealed truth, and that all the others are wrong. This statement in itself lends itself to intolerance. We largely do not choose our religion. Rather we are indoctrinated into it. By an accident of birth we are raised into a particular society that embraces a particular belief. This demonstrates exquisitely that these beliefs are not based on truth, or the pursuit thereof. Almost no one born in Christian societies decide one day to become a Muslim. Why is that? What evaluation have these people made to deem the dogma of Christianity more reliable than that of Islam? As far as I can tell, both make claims of the exact same nature. Claims involving prophecy, metaphysics, miracles, supernatural, and tons of other outlandish, mythological nonsense.

 

I think the day must come that we as human finally admit that morality is innate, and that we do not need to buy into ancient garbage to have a moral compass. I do not mean to trample on people's deeply-held beliefs. I'm just concerned and appalled by what one can get away with in the name of religion. Injustices and horrific acts of the nature we see being done by religions would not be allowed to happen in the name of any other type of belief that hasn't gotten itself labelled a "religion". But once a particular proposition wins for itself that label, it is suddenly protected from criticism, no matter the division and destruction it causes. I'm personally happy to see that the voice of the secularist and free-thinker is starting to gain a modicum of steam as of late in our western societies. But things are far from ideal. We are still subject to the taboo nature of criticizing bad ideologies. And there is still a ideological battle that modernity must ultimately win.

 

Those are my thoughts in the shortest form I could share them.

 

Thank you.