Spending your life with someone ...isn't the same as marriage.

[sambolini]

Well, isn't it like 75% of men who admit they would cheat if they thought they could get away with it? How many of them actually cheat? Probably a good number.

 

Also men go for reconciliation far more then women, as it was like 50% of women that would cheat if they thought they could. So 1 in 3 men vs 1 in 5 women chose to try and reconcile after infidelity.

 

Stats are telling for your argument, but if you provide all the stats, you can see why women divorce more then men. I personally find the 1 in 3 a sad sad stat that tells of the weakness of men IMO. That there are that many men who would stay with some cheating whore is pretty sad to me.

 

Women divorce men for two reasons: assets and hypergamy. No fault divorce allows them to get away with it.

 

97% of all alimony cases are paid by men. They literally cash out.

[sandylee1]

And I completely reject the notion that men are supposed to get married "because of the children". If marriage is better for kids, then perhaps we should be talking about how women initiate 75% of all divorces, thereby breaking up the family unit of which the children are a part.

 

It's not my job to be a daddy to kids that aren't mine. Perhaps people should be pickier about those with whom they choose to procreate, instead of looking for someone else to care for your spawn. That's why I stopped with one kid. I got a vasectomy and I'm done.

 

There is no tangible incentive for a man to marry.

 

If you get beaten..cheated on and mistreated..you'd file for D as well.

 

Of course a cheating husband won't file. .He's cake eating.

 

Just check out the OW board (Most are single OW) and you see a glimpse of all the number if MM who they are cheating with .....are they divorcing ? Hell no. The men have a bit on the side and wife at home...so after dday you expect the wife to stay?

 

Why do you act like it's only men who loose out if a marriage ends? Women loose time with kids as well...and there is more to life than money and assets.

 

Husband cheats....leaves to be OW... wife looses time with kids.....The woman who helped wreck your marriage sees your kids half the time.... you think that's fair?. Try and be objective in your thoughts and not act like divorce only affects men badly.....be balanced.

[sambolini]

If you get beaten..cheated on and mistreated..you'd file for D as well.

 

Of course a cheating husband won't file. .He's cake eating.

 

Just check out the OW board (Most are single OW) and you see a glimpse of all the number if MM who they are cheating with .....are they divorcing ? Hell no. The men have a bit on the side and wife at home...so after dday you expect the wife to stay?

 

Why do you act like it's only men who loose out if a marriage ends? Women loose time with kids as well...and there is more to life than money and assets.

 

Husband cheats....leaves to be OW... wife looses time with kids.....The woman who helped wreck your marriage sees your kids half the time.... you think that's fair?. Try and be objective in your thoughts and not act like divorce only affects men badly.....be balanced.

 

No sympathy for single OW. They voluntarily make that choice the vast majority of the time. If you choose to become sexual with a married man, you face the consequences of that choice.

 

The flaw in your argument is that, at the absolute most, cheating husbands account for only 25% of all divorces. Are they wrong? Absolutely. But the numbers aren't supporting your argument.

 

And if we're using this site as evidence, take a look at the Infidelity forum. It's overwhelmingly populated with BH's.

[sambolini]

"There is more to life than money and assets".

 

Like what? Love? Romance? Tingly feelings?

 

All of those are INTANGIBLE. You can't assign a dollar value to them because of their intangibility. And those are the things that I believe you are implying women bring to the table.

 

Let's look at what men always lose in divorce. Money, assets, retirement...these are tangible things that are being taken from him.

 

The game has been "I will trade you intangible feelings in exchange for tangible resources."

 

I fail to see how that is a good deal. How about you provide your tangible needs and I provide mine, and the only things we exchange are the intangible feelings. Seems fair to me.

[sandylee1]

No sympathy for single OW. They voluntarily make that choice the vast majority of the time. If you choose to become sexual with a married man, you face the consequences of that choice.

 

The flaw in your argument is that, at the absolute most, cheating husbands account for only 25% of all divorces. Are they wrong? Absolutely. But the numbers aren't supporting your argument.

 

And if we're using this site as evidence, take a look at the Infidelity forum. It's overwhelmingly populated with BH's.

 

I'm not talking about sympathy for the OW ... my point is those MM are cheating..ddays happen...then divorce happens too. Not the wife's fault.

 

BTW ... this isn't the only infidelity forum online..there's lots of BWs out there ...being cheated on while pregnant..with husband going to over 200 prostitutes...While going through IVF..... cheating with her best friend. .....it's not only men who loose out in divorce...that's what you want insist on and I totally disagree.

 

I'll end it there..This isn't helping the OP.

[sambolini]

I'm not talking about sympathy for the OW ... my point is those MM are cheating..ddays happen...then divorce happens too. Not the wife's fault.

 

BTW ... this isn't the only infidelity forum online..there's lots of BWs out there ...being cheated on while pregnant..with husband going to over 200 prostitutes...While going through IVF..... cheating with her best friend. .....it's not only men who loose out in divorce...that's what you want insist on and I totally disagree.

 

I'll end it there..This isn't helping the OP.

 

I agree, men cheat too. I am not giving them a pass, and I have just as much sympathy for BW's as I do for BH's. However, in the context of the OP, cheating men isn't the issue. It's cheating wives, and the fallout men face in divorce.

 

He has a right to be skeptical about marriage. I would encourage him to not marry, even if that means the relationship ends. His GF has a right to walk away. But I question the motives of any woman who would end an otherwise good relationship based solely on the fact that he doesn't want to get married. That suggests ulterior motives.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

[] To me you either want to get married, or you want to spend your life with me. These are two separate things IMO. You can have both, but in the end the relationship has to trump your desire to walk down an isle and show off for your friends and family.

Edited January 27, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
redacted response to deleted post ~6

[BettyDraper]

Then it really is a financial contract. Often, one partner handles the business/financial side. The other partner handles the home/family side. Both partners agree to split all the accrued benefits across the board, whether together or eventually separately.

 

It's folks that want to prioritize the $$$ contribution above all the other efforts that have trouble with the equation...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

I agree that marriage certainly has a financial aspect to it. However, I don't believe that marriage is purely about finances. There's a difference.

[MJJean]

[] To me you either want to get married, or you want to spend your life with me. These are two separate things IMO. You can have both, but in the end the relationship has to trump your desire to walk down an isle and show off for your friends and family.

 

For me, it was the opposite. You either want to get married or you DON'T want to spend the rest of your life with me. These are one and the same. You can't have one without the other.

 

Anything warm and fuzzy said along the lines of "I love you and want to spend my life with you." is just words dispersed by wind without making it real socially and legally through marriage.

 

I think part of it is that I don't believe in soul mates and all that jazz. I believe we are each compatible, physically, mentally, and emotionally, with multiple people. We could love any number of them and each would make a good mate.

 

So, if we find one possible match that doesn't have the same values and goals, well, there's more fish in the sea.

Edited January 27, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[BettyDraper]

I'm MGTOW. And I find your shaming tactics amusing, if not completely ineffectual.

 

It's not marriage that is the issue. It's divorce. And since 50% of all marriages end in divorce, and 75% of all divorces are initiated by women, and 97% of all alimony cases are paid by men...well, that paints a strong argument for divorce culture among western women.

 

It's a simple cost/benefit analysis. And marriage often fails to pass that analysis.

 

Marriage provides tangible benefits for women, but hardly any tangible benefits for men. We get nothing out of it, and in fact lose our children, assets, and money. That's what happened to me in my divorce.

 

Your information is insufficient to prove marriage is overall beneficial and a wise choice to make for men.

 

You are MGTOW which means that I will not take you seriously because MGTOW men are just ridiculous and rejected extremists. I know you mentioned that you ended a bad marriage before but that doesn't mean that every marriage is awful. Not every woman is like your wife.

 

I'm sure that I'm not the only woman in the world who pulls her weight in my marriage in every way. My husband cannot be the only happily married man on the planet either. That's why extremism of any kind is just stupid propaganda.

 

I prefer to use science and research to come to conclusions. The sources I have used are all credible so even though you want to minimize the importance of the studies I have used, your individual experience does not represent the reality of marriage being better for men than women.

 

If my "shaming tactics" were so ineffectual, you wouldn't have felt the need to respond to my post in the first place. MGTOW supporters are often social rejects who either cannot get the women they want or they choose awful women and then decide to spread hate about an entire gender.

[BettyDraper]

I completely agree. To me you either want to get married, or you want to spend your life with me. These are two separate things IMO. You can have both, but in the end the relationship has to trump your desire to walk down an isle and show off for your friends and family.

 

Why does a wedding have to be about walking down an aisle and showing off?

My husband and I eloped and many couples opt for smaller ceremonies.

[BettyDraper]

Well I'm sorry you see it that way. I've been married quite a while. I don't know why my take on this is upsetting. Men and women both rush into marriage because they see it as a social stepping stone of life. Like that is just something you have to do to be happy or something. Then suddenly the marriage itself trumps the partner. People overlook GLARING issues and red flags so they can update their Facebook status essentially. Then turn around and wonder why their relationship is garbage and they are ready to file for divorce 6 months to a year in. Citing issues in the relationship that were always present but ignored so you could walk down a stupid isle for your friends and family.

 

Men do this all the time too. My brother in law did it for example. Turned 35 and his only goal is to get married. Well he did, their relationship is already rocky one year in. Go figure. I give them 2 more years tops. Sad to say, but that's how it goes when you rush into something like this.

 

If you have doubts then dont get married to them. Simple as that. If there is a timetable placed by man or woman, then the marriage is more important to them than the relationship itself. Nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

 

I agree that too many people get married for the wrong reasons.

 

However, timelines for marriage aren't just about social pressure.

The desire to share a nice wedding with loved ones isn't only an opportunity to show off.

 

There is also the desire to start a family by a certain age due to biological concerns. There is also the desire to have a legal commitment rather than shacking up indefinitely. Some people also take their religious beliefs very seriously and marriage ties into that.

[BettyDraper]

It's good that you make it clear from the get go...that way there's no deception or messing anyone around.

 

I think your comment about who want kids not sticking around is unfair. It's a woman's and man's right to want children. Doesn't make them bad for it and doesn't mean they want your assets. Just means you want different things in life.

 

Just as you've eliminated them... they've eliminated you. .... no point in flogging a dead horse.

For you and others who have been married and cheated on...your views are jaded. Not every woman cheats and if your wife didn't you wouldn't be so negative about it.

 

To say every woman just wants your assets is nonsense...what of those who marry poorer men?

 

I'm curious .......would you advise your daughter to be a lifelong GF?

 

MGTOW supporters think that it is okay to stereotype women but they can't take it when someone calls them out for being ignorant. They are childish that way.

 

I married my husband when he didn't have anything. My parents were also poor when they got married and so were my in-laws. Of course, in the bizzarro MGTOW world, every woman is a gold digger who wants to divorce a man for his money!

[BettyDraper]

If you get beaten..cheated on and mistreated..you'd file for D as well.

 

Of course a cheating husband won't file. .He's cake eating.

 

Just check out the OW board (Most are single OW) and you see a glimpse of all the number if MM who they are cheating with .....are they divorcing ? Hell no. The men have a bit on the side and wife at home...so after dday you expect the wife to stay?

 

Why do you act like it's only men who loose out if a marriage ends? Women loose time with kids as well...and there is more to life than money and assets.

 

Husband cheats....leaves to be OW... wife looses time with kids.....The woman who helped wreck your marriage sees your kids half the time.... you think that's fair?. Try and be objective in your thoughts and not act like divorce only affects men badly.....be balanced.

 

He can't be balanced because he's obviously traumatized by his divorce.

Fervently following a movement dedicated to hating women and marriage probably isn't helping the emotional damage either.

I thought that one of the central tenets of MGTOW was not arguing with women because we aren't logical.

Looks like Sambolini is failing in that regard.

Edited January 27, 2016 by BettyDraper

[sandylee1]

You are MGTOW which means that I will not take you seriously because MGTOW men are just ridiculous and rejected extremists. I know you mentioned that you ended a bad marriage before but that doesn't mean that every marriage is awful. Not every woman is like your wife.

 

I'm sure that I'm not the only woman in the world who pulls her weight in my marriage in every way. My husband cannot be the only happily married man on the planet either. That's why extremism of any kind is just stupid propaganda.

 

I prefer to use science and research to come to conclusions. The sources I have used are all credible so even though you want to minimize the importance of the studies I have used, your individual experience does not represent the reality of marriage being better for men than women.

 

If my "shaming tactics" were so ineffectual, you wouldn't have felt the need to respond to my post in the first place. MGTOW supporters are often social rejects who either cannot get the women they want or they choose awful women and then decide to spread hate about an entire gender.

 

Betty..this ^^^^^^ is a fantastic post.

 

The BH who was affected financially in divorce isn't likely to be an advocate of marriage.....but his wife is not every woman....just like a WH is not EVERY man.

 

When you place money above all else in marriage..you're doomed for failure. All I hear is money and assets

[sandylee1]

I'd never heard of MGTOW as a group before now......although I know there are believers...but this really fits with the views of some men here.

 

I don't think that the OP falls in that category though.....He's just not sure she's 'the one'.....it would be interesting to see where the OP and his GF are in 6 months to a year.

 

The world would actually come to an end with the MGTOW theory. ....just a bunch of woman haters. How very sad.

 

This (MGTOW) view is just one for the western world though...because in my country of origin. ..and many other African countries.....you don't get anything of your spouse's if you divorce. In fact as a woman... you have no right to take the kids with you either...unless the man agrees. As you can imagine many men keep the kids to spite the ex wife.

[lucy_in_disguise]

Men pay 97% of all alimony cases.

 

The New Art of Alimony - WSJ

 

 

It would help if you clarified the context of this statistic.

 

The wall street journal article you quoted discusses the changing legal environment surrounding alimony. It indicates many states are going forward with legislation to place limits on alimony payments, and explicitly states that the proportion of women making payments to men is on the rise as demographics of the work force change.

 

In my county at least, alimony payments are calculated based on the relative income of each partner, and the length of the marriage. There is no distinction between genders. That men are currently paying 97% is a sad reflection of the historical income disparity between men and women, not a conspiracy to rob them of their money.

 

I agree all adults sjould be responsible for their financial security, but in a family, people are often faced with a choice to compromise on their career for the sake of the kids/ to support their partner/ whatever. For example, a family may decide to move to a different state so the wife could pursue her career while the husband puts his on hold. The institution of marriage aims to provide support to decisions made as a family by recognizing income earned as a family often reflects sacrifices made by both parties. I dont see why this is so hard to understand.

 

I think it is perfectly legitimate to choose not to participate in marriage. You sound like an independent person and i can understand why there would be little upside for you, and much risk. But many people want to share their lives. They find joy and comfort in having a spouse with whom to share life's responsibilities and decisions. They may even want a stay at home mom or dad, someone to take care of their kids and support them in their career. There is nothing wrong with wanting this, either. I think it is a difficult path, and we all know it often ends poorly.

 

To avoid alimony at the end of that road, one can pick a partner who values his/her career and is not interested in decisions which could compromise it. As a 30 year old woman working in finance, I can tell you there are plenty of high-earning women who would never consider giving up their careers to support someone else's.

[Httm]

I agree that marriage certainly has a financial aspect to it. However, I don't believe that marriage is purely about finances. There's a difference.

 

Legally, it pretty much is.

 

There is nearly nothing gained from a marriage and the pitfalls are massive and life changing. Plenty of people stay in happy relationships for their entire lives without marriage. If children will not be involved, there is even less of a reason to get married. People act like marriage gives security or commitment. This is in no way close to reality.

 

And to those that brush off the financial ramifications, it is very easy to say if you don't have considerable life savings that you'd be risking on an educated guess that, in the end, is governed by luck. If finances are lopsided, it actually gives incentive for people to divorce. Free money in this society is a powerful pull. People without significant assets can't seem to comprehend this, but that is ok. No one is forcing you to agree. Do what is best for you as an individual.

 

However, the idea that a relationship cannot be lifelong and happy without a marriage, which guarantees nothing anyway, is silly and antiquated.

[Httm]

I agree with Betty Draper that you shouldn’t have moved her into your family without the intention and plan to marry.

 

Why? What in the world does one thing have to do with the other?

[Httm]

You are MGTOW which means that I will not take you seriously because MGTOW men are just ridiculous and rejected extremists. I know you mentioned that you ended a bad marriage before but that doesn't mean that every marriage is awful. Not every woman is like your wife.

 

I'm sure that I'm not the only woman in the world who pulls her weight in my marriage in every way. My husband cannot be the only happily married man on the planet either. That's why extremism of any kind is just stupid propaganda.

 

I prefer to use science and research to come to conclusions. The sources I have used are all credible so even though you want to minimize the importance of the studies I have used, your individual experience does not represent the reality of marriage being better for men than women.

 

If my "shaming tactics" were so ineffectual, you wouldn't have felt the need to respond to my post in the first place. MGTOW supporters are often social rejects who either cannot get the women they want or they choose awful women and then decide to spread hate about an entire gender.

 

You are using a common technique on the internet. You label and outright dismiss rather than developing a compelling argument and responding to facts in kind. Granted, it is MUCH easier to dismiss someone outright because of a ridiculously concocted label and your assumptions, but it is no way an actual argument.

[Httm]

Then why on earth did you agree to her living with you?? I don't understand that at all. You might as well be married if she moved in with you. At this point, you're just sending mixed signals.

 

There is no correlation between the two whatsoever. People act like something magically changes when married. The relationship itself stays exactly the same. The only difference is that now each person has gifted the other 50% of their assets.

 

I also want to preemptively respond to the 2 easiest assumptions and responses people inevitably throw out.

 

1. Prenups are broken all the time and even iron clad ones involve payouts. I personally don't think that a relationship should be about financial payouts or asking for government approval to change the relationship.

 

2. My personal history is quite unique, and unless you are a modern day nostradamus, any assumptions about my past experiences will not magically become fact that can be used in an argument. Assumptions are never and will never be fact

[BettyDraper]

I'd never heard of MGTOW as a group before now......although I know there are believers...but this really fits with the views of some men here.

 

I don't think that the OP falls in that category though.....He's just not sure she's 'the one'.....it would be interesting to see where the OP and his GF are in 6 months to a year.

 

The world would actually come to an end with the MGTOW theory. ....just a bunch of woman haters. How very sad.

 

This (MGTOW) view is just one for the western world though...because in my country of origin. ..and many other African countries.....you don't get anything of your spouse's if you divorce. In fact as a woman... you have no right to take the kids with you either...unless the man agrees. As you can imagine many men keep the kids to spite the ex wife.

 

The OP seems too smart and diplomatic to be a MGTOW member.

 

I don't enjoy listening to women who hate men and view men as the reason for all of society's problems. I think women like that are poisonous and ridiculous. I feel the same way about men who hate women. I wish that the battle of the sexes would come to an end but that is highly unlikely.

 

I'm in a traditional marriage except for choosing to be childless. My husband and I cherish each other and get along well. We both take pride in looking after each other.

[sambolini]

He can't be balanced because he's obviously traumatized by his divorce.

Fervently following a movement dedicated to hating women and marriage probably isn't helping the emotional damage either.

I thought that one of the central tenets of MGTOW was not arguing with women because we aren't logical.

Looks like Sambolini is failing in that regard.

 

It's not you I'm attempting to reach. It's the OP.

 

What you think of me is irrelevant to me. I don't care if you shame or minimize me because it doesn't affect me or how I choose to live my life. Every letter you've typed towards shaming me is just wasted electrons.

 

What the OP will see is a couple of men on this thread who sympathize with him and support his decision to not marry, because we have his best interests in mind. We want what's best for him. What we have learned is that our self-interest doesn't always align with that of women. And we're okay with that.

 

I don't hate women. In fact, I think you are just as capable as men. That's why you don't need our money and assets in the event of a divorce; you are just capable as we are.

 

OP, there is a reason why women will justify men paying 97% of all alimony cases and continue to extol marriage: self-interest. The current paradigm benefits them regardless of whether or not they are the cause of the marital breakdown. The question for you is, which interest most concerns you? Yours, or theirs?

[BettyDraper]

It would help if you clarified the context of this statistic.

 

The wall street journal article you quoted discusses the changing legal environment surrounding alimony. It indicates many states are going forward with legislation to place limits on alimony payments, and explicitly states that the proportion of women making payments to men is on the rise as demographics of the work force change.

 

In my county at least, alimony payments are calculated based on the relative income of each partner, and the length of the marriage. There is no distinction between genders. That men are currently paying 97% is a sad reflection of the historical income disparity between men and women, not a conspiracy to rob them of their money.

 

I agree all adults sjould be responsible for their financial security, but in a family, people are often faced with a choice to compromise on their career for the sake of the kids/ to support their partner/ whatever. For example, a family may decide to move to a different state so the wife could pursue her career while the husband puts his on hold. The institution of marriage aims to provide support to decisions made as a family by recognizing income earned as a family often reflects sacrifices made by both parties. I dont see why this is so hard to understand.

 

I think it is perfectly legitimate to choose not to participate in marriage. You sound like an independent person and i can understand why there would be little upside for you, and much risk. But many people want to share their lives. They find joy and comfort in having a spouse with whom to share life's responsibilities and decisions. They may even want a stay at home mom or dad, someone to take care of their kids and support them in their career. There is nothing wrong with wanting this, either. I think it is a difficult path, and we all know it often ends poorly.

 

To avoid alimony at the end of that road, one can pick a partner who values his/her career and is not interested in decisions which could compromise it. As a 30 year old woman working in finance, I can tell you there are plenty of high-earning women who would never consider giving up their careers to support someone else's.

 

I agree that there is nothing wrong with choosing not to be married.

However, acting as if only women benefit from marriage or marriage is all about finances is problematic and completely false.

 

MGTOW supporters are all about hating women and denouncing marriage.

Those who hate an entire gender or think all marriages are terrible cannot be taken seriously.

 

A woman can value her career but still choose to give it up because she prioritizes being a SAHM. Though I am not a mother, I valued my career very much but I gave it up so that we could buy a home in an affordable area. I also gave up my career because the stress was making me very unhappy and difficult to be around. I can't believe that I am actually happier at home. I have turned keeping house into a job that I take very seriously. Volunteering is a worthwhile way that I can contribute to society. I also look after my toddler cousin which is fun without the constant drain of motherhood.

[Mr. Lucky]

I personally don't think that a relationship should be about financial payouts or asking for government approval to change the relationship.

 

Then why evaluate relationships and their benefits from only a financial point of view?

 

The only difference is that now each person has gifted the other 50% of their assets.

 

I'm going to assume you're against children also. Once born, they have a similar claim on your assets.

 

Regardless, sad that asset protection would be one's primary focus in relationships...

 

Mr. Lucky