Does the MM hurt?

[Gigi2015]

MJ Jean and Sandi:

I agree that emotional needs don't have to be met romantically.....our brains are somewhat biologically hard wired for pair bonding( we experience intimacy) We also have a strong need to belong. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior. I think there's a TIME and place for everything....depending on where the individual stands in the recovery process. Sometimes, if the person is willing and ready a "newsflash" comment can actually bring clarity. The grieving processs has many steps before resolution. Most people here seem to regret their affairs...

Edited February 3, 2016 by Gigi2015

[elaine567]

I guess in the case of the OP, the MM hurt a lot.

He bravely ditched all and jumped off the top deck into the sea, threw a lifejacket to the OP for her to follow, waited vainly for her to do so, then he had to make his own way to land, whilst she stayed safe on the top deck...

 

But in general I doubt a lot of MM get badly hurt.

Many MM merely want something new, a distraction, a fantasy, a sexual exploit, an ego boost, an adventure, something out of the ordinary, something exciting... it is not really about love or romance or happy ever after.

Once it gets complicated or they are found out, they tend to rapidly retreat back home. I guess they miss the excitement - there is possibly disappointment, but whilst I do believe some may be hurt, definitely not all. some are relieved and some are planning the next escapade...

[Gigi2015]

Anyway---we got off -topic. Back to the thread.

[sandylee1]

I would hope that anyone that causes another pain would hurt-

 

GS

 

I don't think the pain described here is due to the hurt they've caused another person (such as their BS or the OBS) ...it's about THEIR pain as the AP. The pain they and they alone are experiencing as a result of the affair ending.

[Parannonx]

GS

 

I don't think the pain described here is due to the hurt they've caused another person (such as their BS or the OBS) ...it's about THEIR pain as the AP. The pain they and they alone are experiencing as a result of the affair ending.

 

Exactly, this thread is really less about whether the cheating husband feels pain and more a pity party for Conqueror that her AP has gotten over her.

 

Considering that her first stab at this was trying to compare her pain to that of the BS, it's not exactly surprising.

 

Knowing the full story further illustrates the selfishness involved, no consideration for the pain her choices and actions caused her own spouse nor that of her AP's spouse. Just "poor me, I thought that he loved me, but he wouldn't let me string him along forever".

 

So not only do we have a self inflicted wound we have an almost sociopathic lack of self awareness of her culpability in the pain of others and no sign of remorse over being the cause of that pain.

[Gigi2015]

I guess in the case of the OP, the MM hurt a lot.

He bravely ditched all and jumped off the top deck into the sea, threw a lifejacket to the OP for her to follow, waited vainly for her to do so, then he had to make his own way to land, whilst she stayed safe on the top deck...

 

But in general I doubt a lot of MM get badly hurt.

Many MM merely want something new, a distraction, a fantasy, a sexual exploit, an ego boost, an adventure, something out of the ordinary, something exciting... it is not really about love or romance or happy ever after.

Once it gets complicated or they are found out, they tend to rapidly retreat back home. I guess they miss the excitement - there is possibly disappointment, but whilst I do believe some may be hurt, definitely not all. some are relieved and some are planning the next escapade...

 

 

And often times its not due to the marriage but due to deficiencies in themselves. My brother started feeling the middle age angst. Started feeling like he was getting older and perhaps this was hist last chance at eliciting desire in other females. Funny thing is he didn't want my SIL's attention. If she wanted a password to his phone...he called her insecure. If she wanted to know when he'd be coming home was called controlling. He said my SIL had become a Debbie Downer(she was depressed at the situation). He said he no longer recognized the girl that he fell in love with...when in fact he was the one that wasnt recognizable. Three months into the affair he said he thought he was in love. Seven months into it there was mini D-day. He immediately started snapped back. He has gone NC for 6 weeks. He said he recognized he didn't even like the OW(it's actually himself he doesn't like). My point is that it's ALWAYS been about HIM. He's started IC. I don't think he has enough insight at the moment to understand the pain he's caused.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Gigi2015

[elaine567]

My point is that it's ALWAYS been about HIM.

 

As I said, "in general I doubt a lot of MM get badly hurt."

[Liam1]

And often times its not due to the marriage but due to deficiencies in themselves. My brother started feeling the middle age angst. Started feeling like he was getting older and perhaps this was hist last chance at eliciting desire in other females.

 

Funny thing is he didn't want my SIL's attention. If she wanted a password to his phone...he called her insecure. If she wanted to know when he'd be coming home was called controlling.

 

He said my SIL had become a Debbie Downer(she was depressed at the situation). He said he no longer recognized the girl that he fell in love with...when in fact he was the one that wasnt recognizable. Three months into the affair he said he thought he was in love.

 

Seven months into it there was mini D-day. He immediately started snapped back. He has gone NC for 6 weeks. He said he recognized he didn't even like the OW(it's actually himself he doesn't like).

 

My point is that it's ALWAYS been about HIM. He's started IC. I don't think he has enough insight at the moment to understand the pain he's caused.

 

Gigi:

 

You describe my feelings, at the time of the affair, precisely.

 

Also, after dday, I joined an infidelity support group for former cheating men, and 95 percent of those men also articulated something very similar.

 

The affair was never about deficiencies in my wife. I now realize my wife is a much better person than I am/was.

 

All the nitpicking was simply a way to justify my negative behavior.

 

I also did not really even like the OW. In my case, she was simply pushy, eager and available. I should have just said, "NO" to her, but unfortunately, I did not. I now realize that I was actually interested in an affair for quite some time.

 

Like your Brother, I did not even like the OW, even before she went bunny boiler on me. The affair was really just about sex. I never thought she was more attractive or more intelligent than my wife and I certainly knew she was not as kind as my wife.

 

IMO, one problem in affairs is that a lot of times the affair partner gives lip service to only wanting an affair, but in reality they want the whole nine yards for whatever neurotic reason....an ego boost, winning over the wife, etc.

 

I believed the OW was totally aware that the affair was just about sex because she had already had several other affairs before me. Apparently I was wrong.

 

My affair partner was always very competitive with my wife, too. I found this odd and annoying. I never asked about her husband. In fact, thinking about him made me uncomfortable. This need on the OW's part to discuss my wife should have been a major clue to me. However it was my first affair and I was somewhat naive.

 

The OW always tried to elicit conversation about my wife. I refused.

 

At one point she asked me to show her a photograph. I refused.

 

I told the OW firmly that there was no reason for her to know anything about my wife and while in the affair, I did not want to discuss my wife or family or personal life.

 

When I would say this she would pout and become somewhat withholding. That should have been another clue, but I was just too naive.

 

She on the other hand complained about her husband a lot. So much so that I started to feel sorry for the guy.

 

Later, through mutual acquaintances, who do not know about the affair, I learned that he is actually described as a nice guy by all accounts. He has been described as loving, generous and kind by his friends. So unless he is putting on an act, that is how people who know him describe him.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Liam1

[rainbowsandkittens]

I have to say that it's disheartening to hear that a few (which means- probably a good percentage since this is a small pool comparatively) AP don't even like the person they're having the A with. I mean, I get it. Maybe it's not love, clearly it's not enough to give up what they already have, yes it's often more about sex... but to not like them AT ALL? That's a tough row to hoe. Because then it means we've just been totally used, at least those of us who went into it for something more, who were not just in it for sex as well.

 

My AP and I are both coming up on big birthdays in a few months (we're 3 weeks apart.) He thought this was a midlife crisis. And it started before I came around. Thankfully very soon after us meeting he started IC. I know it helped him to leave me. I hope it also helps him to fix his relationship and the things that are so broken within him. I'm not coping that well with the impending birthday either (being single at my age basically means it's never going to happen. Well, at least it feels that way) but feeling like I was someone else's midlife crisis is the pits.

[Cymbeline]

I doubt that many truly don't like their AP if it was more than a brief fling. I think Gigi is more likely to be right when she says it is him/herself that the MP doesn't like. Or at least his/her behaviour and attitudes during the affair. By he AP gets mixed up in those negative feelings.

 

It is Possible that the MP comes to feel that the AP lacks consideration for boundaries and families and doesn't like that aspect of their character.

 

The single APs here don't seem unpleasant at all - just rather lost.

[Liam1]

I doubt that many truly don't like their AP if it was more than a brief fling. I think Gigi is more likely to be right when she says it is him/herself that the MP doesn't like. Or at least his/her behaviour and attitudes during the affair. By he AP gets mixed up in those negative feelings.

 

It is Possible that the MP comes to feel that the AP lacks consideration for boundaries and families and doesn't like that aspect of their character.

 

The single APs here don't seem unpleasant at all - just rather lost.

 

Cymbeline:

 

Let me clarify what I meant by stating that I did not like the OW.

 

What I meant was she was not someone I would consider dating if I were single and looking for a serious relationship.

 

I liked her as I would an acquaintance, initially. I thought she was pleasant looking but not as attractive as my wife.

 

I do have to say that the more I got to know her, the less I even liked her personality. I started to realize that the only thing we had in common was that we both wanted an affair as a way to distract us from reality.

 

At that point, I did not like myself, either. So, I ended it and I can say that I have absolutely no interest in having an affair ever again.

[elaine567]

I doubt that many truly don't like their AP if it was more than a brief fling. I think Gigi is more likely to be right when she says it is him/herself that the MP doesn't like. Or at least his/her behaviour and attitudes during the affair. By he AP gets mixed up in those negative feelings.

 

It is Possible that the MP comes to feel that the AP lacks consideration for boundaries and families and doesn't like that aspect of their character.

 

The single APs here don't seem unpleasant at all - just rather lost.

 

I think all is fine until the OW gets emotionally involved, and starts demanding stuff from the MM, like texts, demonstrations of affection, extra time spent, gifts etc. She wants some signs she is special to him, that she is in some way better than his wife, she wants him there on her birthday, Valentines, Christmas... she gets a bit fed up of being always second best. If he really loves her like he says he does when she asks, then why isn't he more into her?

Whilst some may hide their growing distress, he starts to feel the tension and that is often not really what he signed up for, when he started "this bit of fun", so he goes cold. She pleads, he gives in, they have sex, it is fine, until again he starts feeling the tension...

[rainbowsandkittens]

I think all is fine until the OW gets emotionally involved, and starts demanding stuff from the MM, like texts, demonstrations of affection, extra time spent, gifts etc. She wants some signs she is special to him, that she is in some way better than his wife, she wants him there on her birthday, Valentines, Christmas... she gets a bit fed up of being always second best. If he really loves her like he says he does when she asks, then why isn't he more into her?

Whilst some may hide their growing distress, he starts to feel the tension and that is often not really what he signed up for, when he started "this bit of fun", so he goes cold. She pleads, he gives in, they have sex, it is fine, until again he starts feeling the tension...

 

Ugh, this is exactly what I did. I didn't think I was being too demanding but in retrospect, it was also that he was pulling away and I was trying to keep him closer. I basically begged for attention and affection, bought him Christmas presents (and got nothing in return), talked about my birthday and Valentine's day. Everything I shouldn't have. Well, shouldn't have in this sort of relationship. In a normal one it wouldn't be a big deal- nor would I have felt the need to do it as I did in this one. I didn't get the sex at the end though... darn it.

 

And yes, to Cymbeline, I would say I'm very lost.

 

Thank you for the clarification, Liam.

[Gigi2015]

I have to say that it's disheartening to hear that a few (which means- probably a good percentage since this is a small pool comparatively) AP don't even like the person they're having the A with. I mean, I get it. Maybe it's not love, clearly it's not enough to give up what they already have, yes it's often more about sex... but to not like them AT ALL? That's a tough row to hoe. Because then it means we've just been totally used, at least those of us who went into it for something more, who were not just in it for sex as well.

 

My AP and I are both coming up on big birthdays in a few months (we're 3 weeks apart.) He thought this was a midlife crisis. And it started before I came around. Thankfully very soon after us meeting he started IC. I know it helped him to leave me. I hope it also helps him to fix his relationship and the things that are so broken within him. I'm not coping that well with the impending birthday either (being single at my age basically means it's never going to happen. Well, at least it feels that way) but feeling like I was someone else's midlife crisis is the pits.

 

My brothers midlife confusion started a couple of months before he's his AP. It still had nothing to do with anyone but him. I don't think he meant to use her but---he was a conflicted and confused person that was still married. I guess due to issues of her own she failed to recognize that. She enlisted in enabling him. And as Liam said, my brother started defending his wife in the relationship with OW. The only thing that happened here is my brother was confused and enlisted in another relationship before even ending the first. On mini D-day( although he wasn't truly caught, he realized he had been in a fog. My brother also told OW he loved her...ugh!

Edited February 3, 2016 by Gigi2015

[Gigi2015]

Gigi:

 

You describe my feelings, at the time of the affair, precisely.

 

Also, after dday, I joined an infidelity support group for former cheating men, and 95 percent of those men also articulated something very similar.

 

The affair was never about deficiencies in my wife. I now realize my wife is a much better person than I am/was.

 

All the nitpicking was simply a way to justify my negative behavior.

 

I also did not really even like the OW. In my case, she was simply pushy, eager and available. I should have just said, "NO" to her, but unfortunately, I did not. I now realize that I was actually interested in an affair for quite some time.

 

Like your Brother, I did not even like the OW, even before she went bunny boiler on me. The affair was really just about sex. I never thought she was more attractive or more intelligent than my wife and I certainly knew she was not as kind as my wife.

 

IMO, one problem in affairs is that a lot of times the affair partner gives lip service to only wanting an affair, but in reality they want the whole nine yards for whatever neurotic reason....an ego boost, winning over the wife, etc.

 

I believed the OW was totally aware that the affair was just about sex because she had already had several other affairs before me. Apparently I was wrong.

 

My affair partner was always very competitive with my wife, too. I found this odd and annoying. I never asked about her husband. In fact, thinking about him made me uncomfortable. This need on the OW's part to discuss my wife should have been a major clue to me. However it was my first affair and I was somewhat naive.

 

The OW always tried to elicit conversation about my wife. I refused.

 

At one point she asked me to show her a photograph. I refused.

 

I told the OW firmly that there was no reason for her to know anything about my wife and while in the affair, I did not want to discuss my wife or family or personal life.

 

When I would say this she would pout and become somewhat withholding. That should have been another clue, but I was just too naive.

 

She on the other hand complained about her husband a lot. So much so that I started to feel sorry for the guy.

 

Later, through mutual acquaintances, who do not know about the affair, I learned that he is actually described as a nice guy by all accounts. He has been described as loving, generous and kind by his friends. So unless he is putting on an act, that is how people who know him describe him.

 

You sound exactly like my brother!! My brother didn't have a d-day per se. But--once he realized my SIL had suspicions (valid ones) he woke up. He's started IC and gone NC. He's lost 15 pounds and is terrified he's ruined his life.

[Liam1]

You sound exactly like my brother!! My brother didn't have a d-day per se. But--once he realized my SIL had suspicions (valid ones) he woke up. He's started IC and gone NC. He's lost 15 pounds and is terrified he's ruined his life.

 

I lost about 15 pounds, too. What is that all about? I was eating normally, but the pounds just dropped off.

 

At this point, it looks as if I am lucky that my wife has decided to reconcile.

[Gigi2015]

I lost about 15 pounds, too. What is that all about? I was eating normally, but the pounds just dropped off.

 

At this point, it looks as if I am lucky that my wife has decided to reconcile.

 

That's worry for you...consider yourself lucky. Others don't share your fate.

[Conqueror]

Future faking is all part of the fun and fantasy. Unless or until a spouse discovers the affair or the AP starts wanting to actually do someting.

 

No, not all MM or MW are the same. But the proof is in the actions, not the words. No matter how well those words were delivered.

 

Not all marriages end when the ink dries. My first marriage ended long before papers were even filed. I've watched friends who divorced due to infidelity go back and forth for months after the divorce was finalized.

 

I definitely wasn't future faking. I was totally for real at the time. And the MAIN thing that convinced me that he was serious was the actions he was taking. I am sure it was all BS though. When he told his wife he loved me, he probably did it knowing that he could apologize later and she would take him back with open arms.

[Conqueror]

I really agree with this. OP, your MM was willing to take a chance for you, but he wasn't going to wait long and end up alone. You didn't act, so of course he went back to the wife. He wanted a soft landing.

 

I was with my MM for seven years or so. We were long distance. We were best friends. There was no Dday, no talk of love. I was probably approaching that, since I ended it because I couldn't bear to think of him losing everything because of me.

 

We still talk - infrequently, but whenever we want, We did exchange Christmas presents (via the mail) this year. We both spent under $100, but they were nice gifts.

 

I mention all this, because yes, they can hurt and they can miss us. Sometimes he is so horny he doesn't know how he will make it through the next hour. Sometimes he is depressed because nobody asks him about his day, what he's doing, how he feels. Wife loves him, just after so long people forget to maintain. So he misses the sex and he misses me as a friend. I'm one of his first calls when he has good news or bad news. Yup, there are times since the affair ended before he has called wife and/or kids.

 

BUT - and this is important - he doesn't miss the stress. The constant worry of getting caught, the fact he isn't a skilled liar, the fact he can be a touch scatterbrained with deleting his texts or logging off his email. It wasn't in his nature to be vigilant and hyper aware of his every interaction with me. Really, it isn't in his nature to be deceitful, so while he hurts, he also admits that he doesn't wake up in a panic or rush to get his phone if he leaves it lying around.

 

I don't think we felt romantic love for each other. I think there was a deep friendship.

 

I ended it so he wouldn't get caught. I want him happy and loved.

 

Thank you so much for your input, Lady2163. All of the hiding and secrecy DID become stressful and he told me that he was sick of it. That is why he kept pressuring me to move in with him...so he said.

[sandylee1]

I definitely wasn't future faking. I was totally for real at the time. And the MAIN thing that convinced me that he was serious was the actions he was taking. I am sure it was all BS though. When he told his wife he loved me, he probably did it knowing that he could apologize later and she would take him back with open arms.

 

I think the bit of concern was his unilateral plan. He was taking control leaving you in a difficult position. But would it have been worth the disruption to your children?

 

Children need stability. ....you make a commitment to the effect in a marriage and I repeat that him hurting your H was very bad. A sign of how he acts when he doesn't get his way.. hurting an innocent man. That's just not okay to do. I guess more often it's the OW who are nasty like this to the BW. A man hurting another man in this way is less common.

[Conqueror]

Gigi:

 

You describe my feelings, at the time of the affair, precisely.

 

Also, after dday, I joined an infidelity support group for former cheating men, and 95 percent of those men also articulated something very similar.

 

The affair was never about deficiencies in my wife. I now realize my wife is a much better person than I am/was.

 

All the nitpicking was simply a way to justify my negative behavior.

 

I also did not really even like the OW. In my case, she was simply pushy, eager and available. I should have just said, "NO" to her, but unfortunately, I did not. I now realize that I was actually interested in an affair for quite some time.

 

Like your Brother, I did not even like the OW, even before she went bunny boiler on me. The affair was really just about sex. I never thought she was more attractive or more intelligent than my wife and I certainly knew she was not as kind as my wife.

 

IMO, one problem in affairs is that a lot of times the affair partner gives lip service to only wanting an affair, but in reality they want the whole nine yards for whatever neurotic reason....an ego boost, winning over the wife, etc.

 

I believed the OW was totally aware that the affair was just about sex because she had already had several other affairs before me. Apparently I was wrong.

 

My affair partner was always very competitive with my wife, too. I found this odd and annoying. I never asked about her husband. In fact, thinking about him made me uncomfortable. This need on the OW's part to discuss my wife should have been a major clue to me. However it was my first affair and I was somewhat naive.

 

The OW always tried to elicit conversation about my wife. I refused.

 

At one point she asked me to show her a photograph. I refused.

 

I told the OW firmly that there was no reason for her to know anything about my wife and while in the affair, I did not want to discuss my wife or family or personal life.

 

When I would say this she would pout and become somewhat withholding. That should have been another clue, but I was just too naive.

 

She on the other hand complained about her husband a lot. So much so that I started to feel sorry for the guy.

 

Later, through mutual acquaintances, who do not know about the affair, I learned that he is actually described as a nice guy by all accounts. He has been described as loving, generous and kind by his friends. So unless he is putting on an act, that is how people who know him describe him.

 

 

Liam, in my case I never competed with the wife at all, but it seemed as though he was competing with my husband. I wouldn't ask about her a lot, but he ALWAYS asked questions about my husband. One day, when I went into his office, I asked if I could use his computer. Computer was in sleep mode. Once I shook the mouse and got it out of sleep mode, I was staring dead at my husband's facebook profile, which I thought was weird. He would do this quite often. He was always sizing my husband up. He would look at pics of me and my husband, and though he wouldn't say anything, he would have a mad look on his face while looking at them. He would say awful things about his wife about how she didn't cook or clean, her cooking was horrible, etc. That she did nothing but sat around the house all day. I asked him if he thought it were possible that maybe his wife was tired because she was raising two kids? He got upset and asked, "what, are you an advocate for my wife? Who's side are you on here?" I know...weird.

[Conqueror]

Exactly, this thread is really less about whether the cheating husband feels pain and more a pity party for Conqueror that her AP has gotten over her.

 

Considering that her first stab at this was trying to compare her pain to that of the BS, it's not exactly surprising.

 

Knowing the full story further illustrates the selfishness involved, no consideration for the pain her choices and actions caused her own spouse nor that of her AP's spouse. Just "poor me, I thought that he loved me, but he wouldn't let me string him along forever".

 

So not only do we have a self inflicted wound we have an almost sociopathic lack of self awareness of her culpability in the pain of others and no sign of remorse over being the cause of that pain.

 

Ummm....OK.

[Conqueror]

I think all is fine until the OW gets emotionally involved, and starts demanding stuff from the MM, like texts, demonstrations of affection, extra time spent, gifts etc. She wants some signs she is special to him, that she is in some way better than his wife, she wants him there on her birthday, Valentines, Christmas... she gets a bit fed up of being always second best. If he really loves her like he says he does when she asks, then why isn't he more into her?

Whilst some may hide their growing distress, he starts to feel the tension and that is often not really what he signed up for, when he started "this bit of fun", so he goes cold. She pleads, he gives in, they have sex, it is fine, until again he starts feeling the tension...

 

Right. In my case, he was the one making the demands. It was his way or the highway.

[Conqueror]

I think the bit of concern was his unilateral plan. He was taking control leaving you in a difficult position. But would it have been worth the disruption to your children?

 

Children need stability. ....you make a commitment to the effect in a marriage and I repeat that him hurting your H was very bad. A sign of how he acts when he doesn't get his way.. hurting an innocent man. That's just not okay to do. I guess more often it's the OW who are nasty like this to the BW. A man hurting another man in this way is less common.

 

Exactly! One of the things that hurt me to the core was that he called my husband and said the things he did. My husband did nothing wrong. I did not do that to his wife. There was a lot I could have told her, but I didn't because I did not want to cause her to hurt any more than she already was. In addition, once he called my husband, I thought, "what MAN does that?"Usually its WOMEN doing things of that nature.

[Conqueror]

I think the bit of concern was his unilateral plan. He was taking control leaving you in a difficult position. But would it have been worth the disruption to your children?

 

Children need stability. ....you make a commitment to the effect in a marriage and I repeat that him hurting your H was very bad. A sign of how he acts when he doesn't get his way.. hurting an innocent man. That's just not okay to do. I guess more often it's the OW who are nasty like this to the BW. A man hurting another man in this way is less common.

 

And no, being with AP and causing a disruption in the lives of my children would NOT have been worth it at all.