Does the MM hurt?

February 2, 2016

Double Gold:

I was responding to conguerors post and question.

She was asking the question, I answered.

All of my answers to congueror are tempered with, IMO.

She asked a guestion. Peope are offering their opinions. I can see you don't like mine. Well sorry, but you did not ask the question, and I was not talking to you.

Therefore your angry post to me is very odd. What is really bothering you?

You do realize that I was responding to conqueror, right?

In any case I am glad things worked out for you and that you somehow managed to convince yourself that your affair was not REALLY an affair.

But the fact is, if one of you was married, it was an affair. In your case things worked out. Good for you.

However the stats show that only 3 percent of marriages born from an affair last. Look it up or talk to a marriage counselor.

Whatever. I am glad things worked out for you, but what does that have to do with me offering my opinion to the thread starter?

Uhm, according to my marriage counselor, I ACTUALLY had an affair. I did not have sex with a woman UNDER the guise of an affair. I actually had an affair. If I told my counselor that I had sex under the guise of an affair she would say I was delusional.

Anyway, I agree, I should have paid a sex-service provider, instead of believing the OW when she claimed she only wanted an affair and never wanted to leave her husband.

But the fact is I had an affair. I was married and she was married and we both engaged in sexual activity. That is by definition an affair.

If you say you did not have an affair, who am I to argue, and personally, I really don't care whether or not you had an affair or whether or not you even think you had an affair. I was posting to conqueror, not you.

Liam

I think your post was helpful to the OP. You give a true MM view that we rarely get on here.

The mind boggles when OWs in affairs decide it's not an affair.....

It's great having your perspective .......Your opinions are welcome and if an angry OW or Ex OW gets to you ..please don't worry. This forum needs more of your views..because the truth is that your experience represents the vast majority of affairs.

I believe your views are what OWs (BTW I'm not one) need to hear.

I know you came here with your own situation...but if you can continue to post and not let hostile posts get to you it would be great. Don't be driven away.

February 2, 2016

This is very true, but the catch is "relationship of significance". To a lot of MM/MW, their affairs aren't a relationship of significance. This is something that can be difficult for OM/OW to understand, especially if the relationship was significant to them.

Or an alternative view is that the R may have had some significance initially, but the significance waned for MM/MW because the A only served to fulfill some void that existed at a certain point in time and was in fact the catalyst for the A. In such instances, I think it is especially difficult for OW/OM to understand because they went from being the center of the universe (or so they thought), via the grand declarations of love and whatnot, to the sidelines (a delayed reaction to realizing that they were always in 2nd place), where they are then met with the evasive word soup that the MM/MW feeds them in response to questions about the future. This delayed reaction and coming to terms with their actual level of significance is why so many OW/OM struggle.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Lovetoohard

February 2, 2016

But the proof is in the actions, not the words. No matter how well those words were delivered. .

This. Every day this. I want to repost this on every thread because ultimately this is what it boils down to

February 2, 2016

the evasive word soup that the MM/MW feeds them in response to questions about the future. This delayed reaction and coming to terms with their actual level of significance is why so many OW/OM struggle.

For me, I think it was action soup confusing AP's in the present of the affair. I did have a couple AP's who got emotionally involved and it stunned me. I figured we were all adults who understood an affair was just for fun and relaxation.

I come from a really physically demonstrative family. Lots of casual affectionate touching. And, as a teen, my friends tended to be very huggy-touchy people.

From my point of view, I was being affectionate toward a friend I happened to also be having sex with. From their point of view, it was probably easy to mistake friendship, a lot of casual touching, and sex for something more.

February 2, 2016

In the end, you can't measure the depth of your feelings by how he feels.

February 2, 2016

Again I'm the bs. I listened to my wh's words: I'm working late, she's just a friend, I love you, nothing's going on, whatever, even though I had a sense something was off. (I was vomiting almost daily). Things didn't add up, but he's my husband, I love him, he's never lied before, I'd never felt so odd before (we've been together 28 yrs, since college).

The mow heard him say he never wanted to leave me, loved me and his family, this affair was a passing thing, it won't last - I read it all. However, she knew his actions were saying that he was willing to risk everything he claimed to love in order to sleep with her. So she clung to that. He told her she had a great body, he got sex. She told him he was so powerful and admired, she got sex. She got riskier with her behaviour, going a bit too far to intercept him when he was with us, and that's when he ended it.

Point is, they lied to their loved ones, he risked his family company, they both sh*t where they ate - I don't doubt for a second that they lied to each other.

February 3, 2016

Future faking is all part of the fun and fantasy. Unless or until a spouse discovers the affair or the AP starts wanting to actually do someting.

No, not all MM or MW are the same. But the proof is in the actions, not the words. No matter how well those words were delivered.

Not all marriages end when the ink dries. My first marriage ended long before papers were even filed. I've watched friends who divorced due to infidelity go back and forth for months after the divorce was finalized.

Sorry but--im not ok with this! People sometimes engage in relationships that are not healthy due to a great sense of need at the time...that doesn't mean they are to Assume everything is a heap of lies....including tears!!! It reminds me of a criminal who thinks if people are too stupid to believe the scam , they deserve it....sorry but that's heartless!

February 3, 2016

In the end it is the responsibility of the married partner to uphold his/her word/ vows. If he/she doesn't protect the bond it means he/she is taking it for granted....he/she is at a point where he /she is ok with losing the marriage!

February 3, 2016

Sorry but--im not ok with this! People sometimes engage in relationships that are not healthy due to a great sense of need at the time...that doesn't mean they are to Assume everything is a heap of lies....including tears!!! It reminds me of a criminal who thinks if people are too stupid to believe the scam , they deserve it....sorry but that's heartless!

This word 'need' it does not mean what you think that it means. I think that a lot of the people who get themselves involved in these types of relationships need to learn the difference between a want and a need.

You need food, water, and shelter. That's about the extent of your needs, the rest are wants and some are more important than others. People who are cheating are not doing so to fulfill a need, they are doing so to satisfy a want. They often convince themselves that it is a need they are satisfying because that sounds better than "I wanted it, I knew it would hurt others but I just don't care enough to be a mature adult and either deny my desire or be honest with people about it"

If you are not getting wants satisfied in your relationship then the mature thing to do is to address the matter with your partner, if they are unwilling or unable to do anything about it and it really is important enough to you to outweigh the other benefits of the relationship then have the decency to end it.

This isn't complicated, it may not be easy but it's not complicated.

Fulfillment of your wants at the expense of others is wrong. When you cheat you are making a choice for another person with neither their knowledge or consent. You have changed the terms of your relationship but not had the decency to inform them so that they can decide if they wish to continue under your new terms.

That is unethical and quite frankly the worst thing that people can do to each other that isn't illegal.

Conqueror, get yourself into therapy, you need it, you need to learn why you have so little respect for yourself and others that you are willing to put yourself into these dysfunctional relationships. So that you can learn to live an honest life, that is respectful to yourself and others.

Until you do so, this drama and trauma will continue to be a part of your life and you will continue to leave a path of pain and broken people and families in your wake.

I'm not saying this to be mean or to imply that you are a horrible person, I'm saying this because it is the actual solution to your problem. Frankly it's the solution to all the problems posted in this sub forum.

I speak both as one who ruined a relationship in my youth by cheating and one who is dealing with an unfaithful spouse today. I don't think that the posters here are awful people incapable of redemption, I'm reconciling with my wife because I know that people can change, because I changed.

But the first step has to be recognition that you have done wrong and that you want to stop being that person who hurts others they purport to care about.

February 3, 2016

You don't get emotional need ....it's powerful. It's not right or pretty but it's a necessity.

February 3, 2016

You don't get emotional need ....it's powerful. It's not right or pretty but it's a necessity.

The difference between a want and a need is that you literally can't survive without the latter.

But even if one were to accept your premise, it still doesn't justify abusing another human being to satisfy it. There are ethical and honorable ways to address those "needs" that do not require deception, gas lighting and emotional abuse of others.

And tell me, what needs are being addressed by the posters here? The need for drama, heartbreak and betrayal? Seems like that's something one could happily live without.

February 3, 2016

The poor man did everything to entice you away from your husband, he even told his wife he loved you, and rented an apartment, which was his way of showing his commitment to YOU, but you in fact did what many MM men do to their OWs, and you kept him dangling on a string.

I'll tell my husband but not yet...
We WILL be together, but I need time...
I will definitely do it, but not yet...
I love you of course I do, but I cannot tell my husband yet...

Eventually, I guess he gave up, he realised he was wasting his time, you were never going to tell your husband or leave. He, I guess then thought, the affair to you was just a fun diversion and he was an idiot for thinking you really cared, and that is when he decided to hurt your husband with his revelations.
Your husband, who he saw as the victor for your affections needed to hurt like he did, and at the same time he got back at you, for stringing him along.
Now the heat is off, he is no longer available and he is trying to make a go of it with his wife, you want him...
If you really, truly want him, then YOU need to sort this, but if again you are going to still hum and haw, then leave him be.

I really agree with this. OP, your MM was willing to take a chance for you, but he wasn't going to wait long and end up alone. You didn't act, so of course he went back to the wife. He wanted a soft landing.

I was with my MM for seven years or so. We were long distance. We were best friends. There was no Dday, no talk of love. I was probably approaching that, since I ended it because I couldn't bear to think of him losing everything because of me.

We still talk - infrequently, but whenever we want, We did exchange Christmas presents (via the mail) this year. We both spent under $100, but they were nice gifts.

I mention all this, because yes, they can hurt and they can miss us. Sometimes he is so horny he doesn't know how he will make it through the next hour. Sometimes he is depressed because nobody asks him about his day, what he's doing, how he feels. Wife loves him, just after so long people forget to maintain. So he misses the sex and he misses me as a friend. I'm one of his first calls when he has good news or bad news. Yup, there are times since the affair ended before he has called wife and/or kids.

BUT - and this is important - he doesn't miss the stress. The constant worry of getting caught, the fact he isn't a skilled liar, the fact he can be a touch scatterbrained with deleting his texts or logging off his email. It wasn't in his nature to be vigilant and hyper aware of his every interaction with me. Really, it isn't in his nature to be deceitful, so while he hurts, he also admits that he doesn't wake up in a panic or rush to get his phone if he leaves it lying around.

I don't think we felt romantic love for each other. I think there was a deep friendship.

I ended it so he wouldn't get caught. I want him happy and loved.

February 3, 2016

The difference between a want and a need is that you literally can't survive without the latter.

But even if one were to accept your premise, it still doesn't justify abusing another human being to satisfy it. There are ethical and honorable ways to address those "needs" that do not require deception, gas lighting and emotional abuse of others.

And tell me, what needs are being addressed by the posters here? The need for drama, heartbreak and betrayal? Seems like that's something one could happily live without.

Now this would be an interesting thread--the difference between want and need. Something I have ruminated myself

There's a difference between wanting somebody/something and needing something/someone. Here's an analogy: You want a Prada bag, but you don't exactly need one. Of course, your desire for that particular thing you want can be weak or strong, depending on several things.

February 3, 2016

'And tell me, what needs are being addressed by the posters here? The need for drama, heartbreak and betrayal? Seems like that's something one could happily live without.'

Actually, whether affair partners realise it or not, I think an unconscious need for drama and the subsequent feelings, however perilous, is often a very large factor in driving affair behaviours.

February 3, 2016

'And tell me, what needs are being addressed by the posters here? The need for drama, heartbreak and betrayal? Seems like that's something one could happily live without.'

Actually, whether affair partners realise it or not, I think an unconscious need for drama and the subsequent feelings, however perilous, is often a very large factor in driving affair behaviours.

I never wanted the drama of the affair and don't like drama in my life. I just wanted for me and MM to enjoy our time together. It was happy and positive when we were together.

February 3, 2016

'I never wanted the drama of the affair and don't like drama in my life. I just wanted for me and MM to enjoy our time together. It was happy and positive'

The subterfuge necessary to engage in the first place introduces drama from the very first encounter. Those who truly dislike drama would have some trouble enjoying the encounter because of the fearful feelings raised. I suspect many hide this bad feeling behind strong feelings of being swept away by true romance and live - in itself a love of drama.

I believe the drama intensifies for a married AP over a single. My husband denied liking the drama, saying he hates conflict. They aren't the same thing. He was lacking deep self awareness when he said that. He did enjoy the rush of the drama.

Romantic love is, by definition, dramatic. When forbidden this aspect increases exponentially.

February 3, 2016

The difference between a want and a need is that you literally can't survive without the latter.

But even if one were to accept your premise, it still doesn't justify abusing another human being to satisfy it. There are ethical and honorable ways to address those "needs" that do not require deception, gas lighting and emotional abuse of others.

And tell me, what needs are being addressed by the posters here? The need for drama, heartbreak and betrayal? Seems like that's something one could happily live without.

Your speaking in biological terms only. I'm not saying that the way we often choose to meet our emotional needs can sometimes create chaos. emotional needs are as real as biological needs.

February 3, 2016

Or an alternative view is that the R may have had some significance initially, but the significance waned for MM/MW because the A only served to fulfill some void that existed at a certain point in time and was in fact the catalyst for the A. In such instances, I think it is especially difficult for OW/OM to understand because they went from being the center of the universe (or so they thought), via the grand declarations of love and whatnot, to the sidelines (a delayed reaction to realizing that they were always in 2nd place), where they are then met with the evasive word soup that the MM/MW feeds them in response to questions about the future. This delayed reaction and coming to terms with their actual level of significance is why so many OW/OM struggle.

And --often times this void has nothing to do with the marriage.

February 3, 2016

Sorry but--im not ok with this! People sometimes engage in relationships that are not healthy due to a great sense of need at the time...that doesn't mean they are to Assume everything is a heap of lies....including tears!!! It reminds me of a criminal who thinks if people are too stupid to believe the scam , they deserve it....sorry but that's heartless!

If you knowingly have an affair with a married man or woman..... you only have YOURSELF to blame for any hurt. Anything less is not accepting your personal responsibility like a grown up adult...you play with fire..........

February 3, 2016

If you knowingly hues atave an affair with a married man or woman..... you only have YOURSELF to blame for any hurt. Anything less is not accepting your personal responsibility like a grown up adult...you play with fire..........

Simply because of the way a person arrives at experiencing the pain, doesn't make the pain less excruciating. For instance, a smoker gets lung cancer....He/she is in agony....how useful is it to remind them they created the situation?

Edited February 3, 2016 by Gigi2015

February 3, 2016

Simply because of the way a person arrives at experiencing the pain, doesn't make the pain less excruciating. For instance, a smoker gets lung cancer....He/she is in agony....how useful is it to remind them they created the situation?

People naturally have less sympathy for self inflicted pain. Hence the name self inflicted. If you get down with a married person..it won't be a pain free ride for ANYONE. If he leaves his wife...she's in pain....if he doesn't....you're in pain. ....it's not rocket science

AND....smoking is an addiction, although the warning signs are on cigarette boxes.....

It's not quite the same comparing cancer with an affair.

February 3, 2016

Sorry but--im not ok with this! People sometimes engage in relationships that are not healthy due to a great sense of need at the time...that doesn't mean they are to Assume everything is a heap of lies....including tears!!! It reminds me of a criminal who thinks if people are too stupid to believe the scam , they deserve it....sorry but that's heartless!

Sorry to be the one to say it, but it's the truth. Not a pretty truth. Not a comfortable truth. Certainly not a truth that meshes well with the rainbows and butterflies people associate with "forbidden love", but the truth.

Of course people who are lying to their spouse are also lying to others. That's what liars do. They lie. And they manipulate to get what they want and to keep getting what they want.

And, yes, as a matter of fact, I do think that anyone who gets hurt because they were having an affair with a married person is responsible for their own pain. Period. The End. No question in my mind. It's common sense.

I am a smoker. I am 40. My mother died at 44 from congestive heart and lung failure due to smoking. Knowing this, I have kept smoking. So, yeah, if I die from a smoking related illness it's my own dang fault.

In the end it is the responsibility of the married partner to uphold his/her word/ vows. If he/she doesn't protect the bond it means he/she is taking it for granted....he/she is at a point where he /she is ok with losing the marriage!

Not necessarily.

A lot of the guys I knew who had affairs were completely convinced they'd never get caught. They didn't think of their affairs as a danger to the marriage at all.

Others were confident that, if they were to get caught, they could dump the OW right away as a show of remorse and loyalty to the wife, convince her to stay, and life would go on as normal.

A couple had cheated so many times that they knew their wives weren't going anywhere from years of experience.

I actually didn't care if I lost my marriage. The thing is, though, I also didn't care if I lost my AP. An AP go and there wouldn't be a hole in my life. I knew I could find a new AP. If I was bored and horny enough, I could have sex with exH. I still had friends and family to spent time with, plus the kids and pets, the housework, the yard work, hobbies...

You don't get emotional need ....it's powerful. It's not right or pretty but it's a necessity.

I disagree that romantic emotional needs are a necessity. However, I do agree that we are wired to be social animals and we cannot thrive without close contact with others of our species.

That said, it's clear that we can get our emotional needs met without taking a lover. Between the spouse, children, friends, family, and colleagues, married people are able to get their emotional needs met. The affair is a want.

'And tell me, what needs are being addressed by the posters here? The need for drama, heartbreak and betrayal? Seems like that's something one could happily live without.'

Actually, whether affair partners realise it or not, I think an unconscious need for drama and the subsequent feelings, however perilous, is often a very large factor in driving affair behaviours.

Not for me. I hated drama. I just wanted to go about my life and exH go about his with the household business being addressed and our personal lives left personal. I did not lie or conceal my activities from my exH, my friends, or my family specifically so that I a) wouldn't be a liar and b) to be as drama free as possible.