[Betrayed spouse/partner]the [affair partner] is not your real problem

[Gigi2015]

Ive noticed so much of the anger from betrayal is projected unto the AP/OW. This may only be a knee jerk reaction but it can also be a maladaptive way of dealing with things. The way I look at it: The WS has the gate control..it was his/her job to NOT outsource emotional intimacy(which later leads to a PA). To first look to his partner for support, to voice needs.....I find it interesting that many WS seem to think if their spouse truly loved them they could guess their needs..if they were truly connected, etc. .When in fact part of the EA connection had to do with them disclosing feelings. Why do you think this happens? Is it a deficiency in the marriage or in the WS?

[Arieswoman]

Gigi2015,

I think most BS's would agree that the OW/OM is not the problem. They are not important at all, just available.

 

 

The WS bears all the responsibility for the choice to cheat by going outside the marriage to find what they think is lacking in the relationship.

 

 

If the WS is unhappy then they owe it to the other party to flag that up.

 

 

Using cheating as a solution to marital issues (real or imagined) is like fire-bombing your house because the kitchen tap's leaking.

[Gigi2015]

Gigi2015,

I think most BS's would agree that the OW/OM is not the problem. They are not important at all, just available.

 

 

The WS bears all the responsibility for the choice to cheat by going outside the marriage to find what they think is lacking in the relationship.

 

 

If the WS is unhappy then they owe it to the other party to flag that up.

 

 

Using cheating as a solution to marital issues (real or imagined) is like fire-bombing your house because the kitchen tap's leaking.

 

 

I like how you think...but--what I notice is (perhaps only initially) that there seems to be a sense of relief on both sides when things are discovered (the married couple)....and then the WS slams the OW under the bus....it makes him look good as his wife wants to believe he never cared about her....he wants to spare his wife's feelings and it's all unicorns and rainbows....the problem I see is that the real infidelity reason is not disclosed.

[minimariah]

Ive noticed so much of the anger from betrayal is projected unto the AP/OW.

 

the BS (usually) doesn't know the OW (OM). they know one thing about that person: they slept with their spouse and want their marriage to fall apart. so they know only that ONE negative thing about that person.

 

on the other hand, WS is someone the BS spent years with: they have a lot of happy memories together, too. at one point, they loved each other and had each other's back. so they know a lot of POSITIVE things about that person and few negatives: you can't focus only on the affair because you keep getting reminded of all the nice things the WS did or said, too.

 

so it's a pretty natural reaction to focus on the person we know little but ALL negative about than on the person we pretty much have mixed feelings about.

 

Why do you think this happens? Is it a deficiency in the marriage or in the WS?

 

not sure if i understood the question... some WS think their spouses should naturally know their needs without the WS needing to verbalize them.

 

are you asking if THAT is a deficiency in the marriage or in the WS or did i got it wrong?

[William]

Seems pretty tame so far, but in an effort to get ahead of a thread that has a lot of potential to get sideways, I'll let everyone know that moderation will be watching this one closely so be on your best behavior. Carry on! ~Thank you

 

 

Also, from original William, I moved this to GRD because it was not describing a particular affair, rather was posed as a general statement and question. This is per published policy.

Edited February 6, 2016 by William

[Arieswoman]

Gigi2015,

 

 

"I like how you think...but--what I notice is (perhaps only initially) that there seems to be a sense of relief on both sides when things are discovered (the married couple)....and then the WS slams the OW under the bus....it makes him look good as his wife wants to believe he never cared about her....he wants to spare his wife's feelings and it's all unicorns and rainbows....the problem I see is that the real infidelity reason is not disclosed."

 

 

I would go along with some of this.

 

 

The relief I felt was because I realised that I wasn't going mad. I had struggled for months with verbal abuse, neglect and gas-lighting while trying to find out the reason for my exH's behaviour. So finding out that he was cheating explained it all.

 

 

On DD he didn't throw the OW under a bus, quite the opposite. He said he wasn't going to give her up because he loved her. He got the divorce papers a week later and he left (relunctantly) 3 weeks after that.

 

 

I never got a real reason for the infidelity, just loads of blameshifting and excuses.

[Gigi2015]

the BS (usually) doesn't know the OW (OM). they know one thing about that person: they slept with their spouse and want their marriage to fall apart. so they know only that ONE negative thing about that person.

 

on the other hand, WS is someone the BS spent years with: they have a lot of happy memories together, too. at one point, they loved each other and had each other's back. so they know a lot of POSITIVE things about that person and few negatives: you can't focus only on the affair because you keep getting reminded of all the nice things the WS did or said, too.

 

so it's a pretty natural reaction to focus on the person we know little but ALL negative about than on the person we pretty much have mixed feelings about.

 

 

 

not sure if i understood the question... some WS think their spouses should naturally know their needs without the WS needing to verbalize them.

 

are you asking if THAT is a deficiency in the marriage or in the WS or did i got it wrong?

..l

I do get there's an investment there....any time appropriation determines that...we place time and effort on things and people we value. Yes...my question is why the WS often doesn't verbalized needs...or take action in implementing changes...

[Arieswoman]

Gigi2015,

"my question is why the WS often doesn't verbalized needs...or take action in implementing changes..."

 

 

I think that a lot of the time it's because the WS doesn't want to make changes and is quite happy to have their cake and eat it as long as they are allowed to do so.

 

 

In the case of my WS I believe he was conflict avoidant, had poor boundaries and poor coping strategies.

[minimariah]

..l

I do get there's an investment there....any time appropriation determines that...we place time and effort on things and people we value. Yes...my question is why the WS often doesn't verbalized needs...or take action in implementing changes...

 

hmm... not sure how to answer this question. i think you'll get tons of different answers from folks who are all in different roles and situations; the WS can probably give the most accurate answer.

 

my personal opinion...? the WS can be conflict avoidant; it's simply easier to find something new than it is to work on the relationship you already had. many WS check out emotionally so they don't even want to verbalize their needs... because they're not with the person they want to met their needs. they fell out of love and they want someone new so they don't see the point in verbalizing their needs because they simply stopped caring.

 

and of course, some folks truly don't know how to point out and verbalize their issues. they either don't know there's something wrong until they meet someone new and have a relationship to compare OR they know something is wrong but only realize exactly what it is through their affair.

 

sometimes it's about the WS, sometimes it's about the relationship (marriage). i think adultery is a very complex phenomenon because all of that pain, to the outsider, seems very avoidable. it seems logical that you'll communicate with the spouse when you're NOT happy... right? but there are so many who don't ever voice their issues, let alone to try and fix them.

 

i don't know. i don't think anyone knows, it's hard to explain these things... i believe many WSs genuinely can't explain their actions.

[anika99]

I'm going to post the first dissenting opinion here but I mean no disrespect. I do agree that often a BS will focus too much attention and anger on the AP and not enough on the one who truly betrayed them. No doubt the WS is the one who destroyed the trust and deserves the lions share of the blame.

 

However I think it's perfectly understandable for the BS to regard the AP as a true enemy and to feel anger and disdain for the person who enabled and assisted the WS in cheating and thereby blowing up the marriage and the life of the BS and possibly children's lives too. The AP is obviously an enemy to the BS's and their marriage and their family.

 

Imagine I needed to go out of town for a weekend and I decided to trust an older child of mine, say an eighteen yr old, to spend the weekend at home alone. I tell him to take care of the house and make sure nothing goes awry. While I'm away my son decides to have a friend over and at some point they both go into my personal belongings and steal money and valuables from me.

 

Who do I blame? Just my son? Because he is the one who owed me loyalty, he is the one I trusted and he is the one who invited the friend over and invited that friend to take my belongings? Or do I also hold the friend responsible because I assume that as a young adult the friend would know right from wrong?

 

Obviously my biggest problem is my son, because I live with him and I trusted him and he betrayed me. I need to determine how to best handle the situation with him. That may be kicking him out of the house, or calling the police or getting him into some type of counselling. However I would not consider the friend an innocent party. I would feel victimized by the friend as well even if he were a stranger to me and he wouldn't have ever stolen from me had he not been invited to do so by my son. I would still hold him responsible for his actions and blame him for the role he played. That wouldn't mean that I blame him for my son's behaviour. I would consider both of them guilty of hurtful and destructive behaviour.

 

I think sometimes the BS does over blame the AP, especially when they first discover the affair, because it's so painful to consider that their spouse could such a horrible thing to them all on their own. Just like in my above analogy, I may initially want to believe that the friend influenced and controlled my son in some way so that I wouldn't have to deal with the reality that my son is a thief who stole from his own mother. That is called denial and it's a stage of grief that hopefully most BS will come out of, but the BS blaming the AP for their actions doesn't mean that that they are not also blaming the WS and holding them accountable.

[Whoknew30]

Agreed GiGi!

 

I think it's just sad when any BS does this. My H tried to do this & Intold him OM wasn't the issue, then when he tried to cutdown OW, I told him the same, I wanted & worked on our own issues that lead to this bc if there isn't a marital issue or internal issue than there would have never been any other person.

[Parannonx]

As others have pointed out the BS directing anger at the AP is a natural reaction, particularly if the BS is wanting to reconcile, it's easier to focus taht anger at the person who they don't love.

 

Most probably even realize that it's not reasonable and perhaps understand that they are projecting.

 

That said pretending that the AP has no ethical culpability is a self serving rationalization of AP to minimize their awful behavior. Add to the fact that so often in these situations the AP is also married such rationalization even more ridiculous.

 

Yes the wayward spouse is the one who cheated and bears the brunt of the blame in their relationship. However unless the AP was misled as to the relationship status of the WS they bear responsibility for their actions as well in choosing to become involved in a situation that they know is wrong.

 

Also the WS would not be able to actually cheat unless their was a willing accomplice. So at an absolute minimum the AP is enabling the cheating.

 

So while I agree that the bulk of the responsibility should be laid at the feet of the WS, pretending that the AP has no culpability is nonsense.

[dreamingoftigers]

I find for most it isn't an either/or scenario.

 

Nor does it break down by 50/50 on terms of responsibility.

 

But I have the capacity to be both very disgusted by the cheater and very disgusted by the AP for their actions.

 

And hey, there's plenty of disgust and blame to go around. They can have as much as they want. No shortage.

[dreamingoftigers]

And frankly an AP can become a very real problem for a spouse.

 

They can go on to become the Wife and get 50/50 time with the kids. Or just send you being a stalker or even try to injure or kill the BS or the kids (if they are a real whacko, the vast vast majority aren't).

 

One of the BS here years ago was stalked for years by her husband's AP. Long after the affair had terminated.

 

We've seen OW on here who get VERY mad at the wife for 'winning' her own husband back, even completely unaware she had done so. I remember

Edited February 8, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[dreamingoftigers]

Agreed GiGi!

 

I think it's just sad when any BS does this. My H tried to do this & Intold him OM wasn't the issue, then when he tried to cutdown OW, I told him the same, I wanted & worked on our own issues that lead to this bc if there isn't a marital issue or internal issue than there would have never been any other person.

 

I think.its particularly lame when a WS tries to blame an AP for an affair.

 

Like there's these AP that just show up out of nowhere and sex you up like some kind of Sirens that one cannot resist.

[Whoknew30]

As others have pointed out the BS directing anger at the AP is a natural reaction, particularly if the BS is wanting to reconcile, it's easier to focus taht anger at the person who they don't love.

 

Most probably even realize that it's not reasonable and perhaps understand that they are projecting.

 

That said pretending that the AP has no ethical culpability is a self serving rationalization of AP to minimize their awful behavior. Add to the fact that so often in these situations the AP is also married such rationalization even more ridiculous.

 

Yes the wayward spouse is the one who cheated and bears the brunt of the blame in their relationship. However unless the AP was misled as to the relationship status of the WS they bear responsibility for their actions as well in choosing to become involved in a situation that they know is wrong.

 

Also the WS would not be able to actually cheat unless their was a willing accomplice. So at an absolute minimum the AP is enabling the cheating.

 

So while I agree that the bulk of the responsibility should be laid at the feet of the WS, pretending that the AP has no culpability is nonsense.

 

 

 

The AP does hold responsibility for their own actions but OW is a symptom of a bigger problem within either the WH or the marriage & if any WS puts so much mental effort into hating AP, IMO takes away mental effort of getting to what the actual problem is....I wanted our problems fixed in my marriage. AP weren't our problem, we were our problem...& if there is only one WS their choices are the BS true problem.

[Midwestmissy]

We have been in mc since my wh confessed. What has been thoroughly dissected is our marriage before the affair. My wh couldn't/wouldn't communicate his needs. Having needs was in his eyes, a weakness. I was oblivious to his problems, he whistled and smiled & joked & said he had everything under control. He did it well. He decided instead to blame me for not meeting his (undisclosed) needs. I didn't care about him, I was using him, I wasn't supportive of him. He had made business mistakes and was doing business with someone I didn't trust. He refused to acknowledge the questionable ethics of this man. This presented as arrogant, unusually confident, condescending and very detached. We had the added bonus of my mil telling him he was superman, and that I clearly was not appreciative. She pitted him against me, since she wanted him to herself. She used those exact words to me and he called me a liar. That's a whole other thread, trust me. It was a horrible time for me. Nothing I ever said was validated. He didn't want to look at his issues as anything other than me not backing him, not that he was making iffy decisions.

 

The mow was his direct report. She blew sunshine up his backside when he was convinced I wasn't on his team. She flattered him for anything he said or did, while I was telling him that he was putting too much trust in people who didn't care about him (I was totally right btw, the business partner was a borderline financial criminal and that relationship exploded). It was effortless to get positive anything from the mow, she made herself available, and he detached further, and avoided the big issues. They ramped it up to constant contact under the guise of work. That turned into flirty stuff, which turned into a kiss here and there, then talk of sex, then sex. No talk of love. It was very teenager-y. When he was forced to interact with me, I was the enemy. By this point, I was so confused, so rejected, so discarded and flailing. Which disgusted him further. I begged him for therapy, time, answers - I was brushed off while he stared at his phone. He had a tension headache for 8 months that terrified him. But still whistled and acted like he was in complete control.

 

He came to the realization he missed his family, that cheating was gross, that she was trying to intercept him when he didn't want to be. She started leaving too many breadcrumbs and he started to panic. She hinted that she would leave her bh for my wh and he realized she was not someone he wanted to be with anymore, so he ended it and she wasn't happy. In the 12 months between the break up and his confession, she turned up the heat and behaved unprofessionally way too often. That's when I really questioned him and he confessed first to an ea then the 4 mo pa. She then very reluctantly and angrily signed a termination agreement. Once the announcement was made, clients began calling my wh saying they'd love to come back now that she was gone and he was just more humiliated. It was like a light went on - he had been blind to who she really was, "Oh my god what Else have I been blind to? What the hell is wrong with my mother? With me?How stupid am I being? What on earth have I done to my family? " At that point he went into repair and reconcile mode, not smoothly, lots of trickle truth, and so much shame and guilt. The fallout was spectacular and totally out of his control. The mow behaved like they were still buddies and continued to be very familiar, he never responded. She's moved on to the next guy. Not sure if she's married still. She took an entry level job elsewhere and her reputation continues to be icky. She's 50 (I'm close to that) has 4 young sons and took an apartment in the city. Without her children. She wrote to my wh that her parents had let her be independent at age 12, and she'd turned out great, so she thought being around her kids too much would not be necessary. That breaks my heart, my kids are the same ages.

 

There's been no contact from her in 9 months. I think my wh has really got a grasp on how he gave himself permission to step out.

[sweet_pea]

So, remind me again why the AP isn't the "real" problem. What determines a "real" problem? Is the AP now a "fake," "made up," problem? Should they be let off the hook even though they had a hand in destroying someone emotionally? Didn't they play a role in the affair? Didn't they take action in hurting the BS? Or am I making things up? Or is this one of those things where because they weren't married to you, you can't be upset with them Just like Dreamingoftigers, I can be mad at my WS AND the AP, but for different reasons.

[Gigi2015]

the BS (usually) doesn't know the OW (OM). they know one thing about that person: they slept with their spouse and want their marriage to fall apart. so they know only that ONE negative thing about that person.

 

on the other hand, WS is someone the BS spent years with: they have a lot of happy memories together, too. at one point, they loved each other and had each other's back. so they know a lot of POSITIVE things about that person and few negatives: you can't focus only on the affair because you keep getting reminded of all the nice things the WS did or said, too.

 

so it's a pretty natural reaction to focus on the person we know little but ALL negative about than on the person we pretty much have mixed feelings about

not sure if i understood the question... some WS think their spouses should naturally know their needs without the WS needing to verbalize them.

 

are you asking if THAT is a deficiency in the marriage or in the WS or did i got it wrong?

 

 

I think the wife is not usually a person that was " once loved"...that's the weird part. It is OFTEN the person they choose to continue to share a life witth and most love. But--they choose to outsource their emotional intimacy, etc. I don't understand.

[Whoknew30]

So, remind me again why the AP isn't the "real" problem. What determines a "real" problem? Is the AP now a "fake," "made up," problem? Should they be let off the hook even though they had a hand in destroying someone emotionally? Didn't they play a role in the affair? Didn't they take action in hurting the BS? Or am I making things up? Or is this one of those things where because they weren't married to you, you can't be upset with them Just like Dreamingoftigers, I can be mad at my WS AND the AP, but for different reasons.

 

The real problem is you WS. The reality is the AP can walk away without giving the WS another look, people love to talk about the AP needs to deal with consequences but so does the WS & part of those consequences can be AP wipes their hands clean & says by bc they can. The WS can choose to be mad at AP all they want but why would the AP care about they if they already didn't care they were banging a married person? So what's the point of making the AP a priority? The BS wasn't & will never be a priority to the AP, so why give them that back. The hard cold reality, is no AP doesn't care about the BS & the WS is the one that allowed it. You can't get water from an empty well, so why try?

Edited February 6, 2016 by Whoknew30

[Midwestmissy]

In my case I hate the mow, lol. But I don't blame her for the affair more than I blame my wh. I didn't like her before the affair started. She knew exactly what she was doing and it would be hurtful. Because this wasn't her first rodeo. I do not subscribe to the "she didn't make vows to me" garbage. She wanted to move into my role and have my life. I despise manipulators, I despise insincerity and phoniness. I despise triangulators. I don't spend my days wringing my wrists ruminating on them, I get away from them and don't engage. I was furious with my wh for bringing her into my life. She got information about me from other family members and used it against me. She's not faultless.

 

When I had my first real job, big corporation, I was 22. A much older woman took me aside and said "if any man here starts talking to you about his lousy marriage, tell him to talk to his wife about it." It was advice I always heeded.

[dreamingoftigers]

In my case I hate the mow, lol. But I don't blame her for the affair more than I blame my wh. I didn't like her before the affair started. She knew exactly what she was doing and it would be hurtful. Because this wasn't her first rodeo. I do not subscribe to the "she didn't make vows to me" garbage. She wanted to move into my role and have my life. I despise manipulators, I despise insincerity and phoniness. I despise triangulators. I don't spend my days wringing my wrists ruminating on them, I get away from them and don't engage. I was furious with my wh for bringing her into my life. She got information about me from other family members and used it against me. She's not faultless.

 

When I had my first real job, big corporation, I was 22. A much older woman took me aside and said "if any man here starts talking to you about his lousy marriage, tell him to talk to his wife about it." It was advice I always heeded.

 

My father's misstress was trying to get pregnant and assume the role of wife after four months.

 

I am disgusted with her too. My mother was caring for their two disabled kids full time so my father could go out and live the high life. What a virulent person. And yes I met her, I still think that. My father is a jackass and she's virulent.

 

Frankly last night my father said something about another MM who is cheating on his wife. I mentioned the guy is an idiot. (I know him). He said, 'so he's getting action and he's an idiot?'

 

I said, 'yes. Getting action is hardly a mark of intelligence. Plus getting action from skeazy w***** who want extra attention or cheap sex is as easy as ordering a pizza.' It really is.

Edited February 8, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Gigi2015]

The real problem is you WS. The reality is the AP can walk away without giving the WS another look, people love to talk about the AP needs to deal with consequences but so does the WS & part of those consequences can be AP wipes their hands clean & says by bc they can. The WS can choose to be mad at AP all they want but why would the AP care about they if they already didn't care they were banging a married person? So what's the point of making the AP a priority? The BS wasn't & will never be a priority to the AP, so why give them that back. The hard cold reality, is no WS doesn't care about the BS & the WS is the one that allowed it. You can't get water from an empty well, so why try?

 

 

In my humble opinion it's trying to pinpoint where the root problem is. Some people get lost...blaming the symptom rather than the problem. Point in case: my brother was unhappy at work and was passed up for a promotion. He didn't share this with my SIL....instead he started talking about it to a woman at work.(she empathized as she understood their industry). Why didn't he trust my SIL? He simply felt ashamed and felt he was letting her down (she didn't care one way or the other...and loved him for him not his successes)...still--the intimacy became stronger between the two co-workers....leading to an affair. There was nothing wrong with his marriage...it was all his insecurity and fear....the problem is he FAILED to recognize that outsourcing intimacy is a problem....and he's self-esteem issues where his own.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Gigi2015

[Midwestmissy]

Gigi that's so similar to my situation as well. It's so hard to know that if my wh had just spoken up honestly about his business concerns and how it was damaging him emotionally, this might have been averted. Affair partners are often able to hold up an ideal mirror to the cheater and reflect back to them what they want to see and hear.

 

I remember having a fight with him after the affair was over and I still didn't know. I mentioned her since I strongly suspected and his rage was "she only listened to me and never judged me." I was shocked - why wasn't he talking to me? I'd been begging him to open up for almost a year! Who shares personal crap at work with a direct report - hello boundaries! It's when the lies started to unravel and he knew he'd have to come clean. He wasn't able to work on the marriage with this huge secret - he didn't want to admit it, but he had to.

 

Come to find out she's a good listener because her mouth was always full and she wasn't judgemental because who was she to judge a cheating spouse? Frankly, they were not looking out for eachother at all, just themselves. There was not a genuine caring on either side, it was transactional.

 

I had an opinion about bad business dealings because they directly affected me and my kids' futures. He didn't want the truth from me. She had nothing to lose and everything to gain by just telling him how wonderful he was no matter what he did. Her lies just delayed the inevitable. With her, he was a very big player in his industry. All that adoration and none of the work.

 

Reading here really proves how mundane and cliche these situations are.

[Gigi2015]

It's weird when the WS gets in that mode...they can only tolerate those who don't confront them....very typical. But--it's amazing to watch them wake up...it's like deep down inside they always knew the truth.