what do y'all think?

[newbby]

Blackchild,

If you talk like this, calling names...etc, ,: "AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS BEAT BOTH (MAN AND THE WOMAN) THEY ASSES! BUT OTHER THAN THAT BE UPSET WITH THE PIG YOU LET SLEEP IN YOUR BED WITH YOU EVERY NIGHT!"

you cannot help but have others think of you as insecure and self absorbed...perhaps even a bit stupid...

jj be careful, THAT sounds like a judgement

 

blackchild, erika is right, we do have to also take the responsibility of being the ow, i'm not saying that its not understandable to be so angry at the mm at this stage, but the mm is also looking for happiness just the same as us. they may be decietful and i am not sure i understand it but then i have never been in the trap of marriage and i wouldnt know. to be SO angry at the mm (pl) and judgemental of them is as bad as people being so angry and judgemental of the ow. it is like all things it is difficult not to counter with an extreme but it is neccessary to strive not to. for example feminists who trash men are not solving anything. black people trashing whites would not cure racism. although we might get angry about things it is not a solution therefore i dont see trashing the mm is a solution to the ow getting the whole lump of the blame.

 

bronzepen,

we do all judge it is true, there are however extremes of judgement, but i dont think you can say that people judge others independent of themselves. when you form an opinion you are forming that opinion based on what you already know, it is impossible not to do this with thought, therefore when you judge it is a comparison. it could be a comparison of two people outside of yourself however i'm quite sure that you are always at the centre of this. for example if you were a meat eater and you looked at a meat eater and a vegetarian its unlikely that you would judge the vegetarian as wildly superior to the meat eater.

some people DO judge because it makes them feel better about themselves, just as some people seek relationships that make them feel better about themselves.

also to say that we all judge does that mean we should just accept it, the same argument you used before could also apply here.

[jj003]

Originally posted by newbby

jj be careful, THAT sounds like a judgement

 

.

 

Thanks, newbby, But I was saying OTHERS may , I did not say I do, I am certain if I also call people pigs..etc, I would be judged by others as being a certain type of persons...and I would have no one to blame but myself...after all, if we want others to respect us, we must first respect ourselves

[newbby]

jj, i was being ever so slightly facetious.

[jj003]

newbby,

good day...

[newbby]

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by jj003

You are right, I do not look down on infidelity. If my H falls in love with another woman, I would think either that he never really loved me or he nolonger loves me, or loves me enough...if it were the first, that he never really loved me, then it was my mistake as well as his to get marry in the first place, perhaps I did not really understand what love is when I married him or I was mistaken to believe that he loved me, either way, I am to blame as much as he is. In the second place, if he loved me once and nolonger loves me, then I would ask myself, why I am not able to keep his love? perhaps I wasn't being understanding of him? of his needs? I couldn't give him the support he needs or the friendship he seeks, or we just simply grown apart? If this were the case, why would I blame him if he could find someone else whom he could be happy with? Just because he made some vows to me, it doesn't mean he must do as he promised once even if he were not happy with it, and if I really love him, I should want him to be happy, I would not want him to feel obligated to me in any ways just because he signed a piece of paper, it would have no meaning, I want him to stay with me only out of love..

 

OK, I respect that.

 

But how about trust and character?

 

Yes he doesn't have to honor his vow and loyalty to his wife but what does that say about the MM?

 

Is this someone you can trust? Where is his credibility?

 

Shouldn't the MM/MW at least be honest and say they are not happy, before finding their happiness somewhere else? Happiness is not an on and off switch. It's a gradual process. If you start to have feelings for someone else that's a good red flag, you know something is wrong with your marriage and it's time to talk to your spouse.

 

We all want our significant other to be happy. It goes both ways. I think we all know that once we are in an affair and the MM/MW find out about it, they are going to be hurt. They can ask themselves all the questions that you posed but what ultimately what hurts them is the lying and deceit.

 

Why do this if the person that is unhappy could've just said from the beginning. "Honey, this is not working out, I am not happy with this marriage." Sure the news will hurt but there will be no lie's or deceit involved.

 

 

 

By judging, we are implying that the other person is right or wrong, good or bad. In our society, we can have only one wife, but in some societies, they can have up to 4 wives, I would not say we are right and they are wrong, I would only think we have different ways of seeing things, different values. Just because you believe in something that I do not agree upon, it doesn't make you wrong and I right!

I do not think of Son of Sam to be anything but a mentally ill person, was he wrong? he simply needed medical care, it was unfortunate that he was left to do what he did.....

I hope you would not equal the OW or the mm to son of sam, just because your H falls in love with someone else, it doesn't make him a killer.

And I hope you do not equal all wives to Mother Teresa, you are talking about things on a different level !! Also, there may be others who are just as compassionate and caring as Mother Teresa, but they may have less ability to help or less press coverage, it doesn't make their contributions any less worthwhile...look at all those volunteers at organizations like Medicines sans Frontiers, they are not Mother Teresa, but I would respect them the same nevertheless...

 

As for the mm sleeping around with women just for sex, we need to ask ourselves? why are we so stupid to marry such man? and why are we so stupid to fall for such men and be used for sex? at the end, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

 

No, by judging we are forming and opinion then labeling a person based on their action and reputation. It's not about right or wrong.

 

It was never a question of wrong and right but what is socially acceptable. Currently (In the US), infidelity is not acceptable and is a taboo.

 

I was not making any comparison to anything about Son of Sam and Mother Theresa. I used them as examples to point out how we all judge people, because you said you never judge people.

 

But you do judge. You said you find Son of Sam to be mentally ill, you just passed judgement on him.

 

We all judge.

 

Next time somone says to you "Who are you to judge?" just say "I judge because you judge."

 

 

bronzepen,

we do all judge it is true, there are however extremes of judgement, but i dont think you can say that people judge others independent of themselves. when you form an opinion you are forming that opinion based on what you already know, it is impossible not to do this with thought, therefore when you judge it is a comparison. it could be a comparison of two people outside of yourself however i'm quite sure that you are always at the centre of this. for example if you were a meat eater and you looked at a meat eater and a vegetarian its unlikely that you would judge the vegetarian as wildly superior to the meat eater.

some people DO judge because it makes them feel better about themselves, just as some people seek relationships that make them feel better about themselves.

 

Actually, what your describing is a false perception of one's self. Insecurity.

 

An insecure person who is at the tale end of a judgement will always feel like it's a Superior to inferior judgement call. Insecure people are always sizeing up themselves to others because they lack self confidence.

 

You give an excellent example of what I am talking about. See, if I was a secure meat eater, I would never even consider whether I am superior or not to a vegetarian. Because what another person chooses to eat is irrelevant to me and will have not have any factor on what I choose to eat or how I feel about myself. I am happy about my decision. My happiness is from within.

 

But if I am insecure then my preoccupation about my decision to be a meat eater is reflected on how others think of my decision. Their opinion means more to me then my decision because I lack the confidence to know whether or not my decision is valid. So I look for others who are like me to validate my decision. For those who oppose (vegetarians) I will judge them inferior in order to validate my decision to be a meat eater. This will give a false "feeling better" emotion because in actuality I still lack the confidence to know whether my decision is valid. My happiness is fueled from the outside but inside it's empty. Empty shells crack easy.

 

 

also to say that we all judge does that mean we should just accept it, the same argument you used before could also apply here.

 

Whoa I never said to accept it. But deal with it. Judging and infidelity are considered bad human traits but the diffrence is that judging is acceptable and infidelity is not.

 

To repeat what I said, "Personally I don't think it's possible to change human nature. Infidelity is a taboo that will never go away. Actually it's very wide spread, I think that's why it's never been a law, making it illegal to cheat. Too many people doing it. Sure there are some blue laws but none are enforced. Plus infidelity is very very hard to prove in the courts. So the next best thing is to chastise and look down on those who do."

 

This is how society deals with infidelity.

[newbby]

Actually, what your describing is a false perception of one's self. Insecurity.

 

An insecure person who is at the tale end of a judgement will always feel like it's a Superior to inferior judgement call. Insecure people are always sizeing up themselves to others because they lack self confidence.

 

You give an excellent example of what I am talking about. See, if I was a secure meat eater, I would never even consider whether I am superior or not to a vegetarian. Because what another person chooses to eat is irrelevant to me and will have not have any factor on what I choose to eat or how I feel about myself. I am happy about my decision. My happiness is from within.

 

But if I am insecure then my preoccupation about my decision to be a meat eater is reflected on how others think of my decision. Their opinion means more to me then my decision because I lack the confidence to know whether or not my decision is valid. So I look for others who are like me to validate my decision. For those who oppose (vegetarians) I will judge them inferior in order to validate my decision to be a meat eater. This will give a false "feeling better" emotion because in actuality I still lack the confidence to know whether my decision is valid. My happiness is fueled from the outside but inside it's empty. Empty shells crack easy.

bronzepen isnt this exactly what i was saying? those who judge ow as inferior beings are validating themselves by thinking of themselves as superior moral beings. the meat eater vs vegetarian analogy was probably not a very good one but i was trying to illustrate that judgement is always to some extent subjective. i was not trying to outline that as a superior/inferior type of example.

Whoa I never said to accept it. But deal with it. Judging and infidelity are considered bad human traits but the diffrence is that judging is acceptable and infidelity is not.

in your opinion, personally i find that infidelity is far more acceptable than judgement.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by newbby

bronzepen isnt this exactly what i was saying? those who judge ow as inferior beings are validating themselves by thinking of themselves as superior moral beings. the meat eater vs vegetarian analogy was probably not a very good one but i was trying to illustrate that judgement is always to some extent subjective. i was not trying to outline that as a superior/inferior type of example.

 

Actually no.

 

It's actually the opposite. People who judge OW is based on how society in general view infedility. It's not acceptable behavior.

 

How OW/OM react to this judgement is what I was talking about.

 

OK follow me on this, Because society condemns OW/OM behavior, "insecure" OW/OM will then judge society. They become the insecure meat eater. The OW/OM are preoccupied about how society views them. So they will judge those who oppose them.

 

The secure OW/OM can care less about what society thinks because they are happy about their decision.

 

in your opinion, personally i find that infidelity is far more acceptable than judgement.

 

Unfortunately society disagree's with you.

 

But remember your a secure meat eater. Don't let the judges make you insecure. ;-)

[newbby]

ok i understand what you are saying bronzepen,

i dont however think it is neccesarily insecurity that questions society, i think it is quite healthy to explore whether widespread beliefs are a result of ingrained conditioning. this exploration is not always in defense and not always purely subjective.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by newbby

ok i understand what you are saying bronzepen,

i dont however think it is neccesarily insecurity that questions society, i think it is quite healthy to explore whether widespread beliefs are a result of ingrained conditioning. this exploration is not always in defense and not always purely subjective.

 

 

 

Two different things.

 

On thing is to question society, another is to defend ones own actions.

 

On one hand your defending your actions to society. On another your questioning society's perception and attitude.

 

Seperate the two and it will be easier to see how society works and not work.

 

I believe that as long as the institution of marriage is in place, infidelity will always be a taboo.

 

But hey, things have gotten better. No one gets stoned these days. I think any cheater will take negative attitudes over stoning any day.

[newbby]

i dont actually recall defending my actions though, i simply said why does the ow get the majority of the blame and no understanding when the cs gets understanding and a small portion of the blame? that was my original post. i have not defended myself as the ow a huge deal, its not something i am particuarly proud of then again its also not something i hate myself for doing, i get why i did it, i dont feel the need to explain it either.

however that was not the original topic and i think i raised a valid point and i dont think it is indicative of great insecurity to raise it. i think it is unfair, that is all.

[jj003]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

OK, I respect that.

 

But how about trust and character?

 

Yes he doesn't have to honor his vow and loyalty to his wife but what does that say about the MM?

 

Is this someone you can trust? Where is his credibility?

 

Shouldn't the MM/MW at least be honest and say they are not happy, before finding their happiness somewhere else? Happiness is not an on and off switch. It's a gradual process. If you start to have feelings for someone else that's a good red flag, you know something is wrong with your marriage and it's time to talk to your spouse.

 

We all want our significant other to be happy. It goes both ways. I think we all know that once we are in an affair and the MM/MW find out about it, they are going to be hurt. They can ask themselves all the questions that you posed but what ultimately what hurts them is the lying and deceit.

 

Why do this if the person that is unhappy could've just said from the beginning. "Honey, this is not working out, I am not happy with this marriage." Sure the news will hurt but there will be no lie's or deceit involved.

 

No, by judging we are forming and opinion then labeling a person based on their action and reputation. It's not about right or wrong.

 

It was never a question of wrong and right but what is socially acceptable. Currently (In the US), infidelity is not acceptable and is a taboo.

 

I was not making any comparison to anything about Son of Sam and Mother Theresa. I used them as examples to point out how we all judge people, because you said you never judge people.

 

But you do judge. You said you find Son of Sam to be mentally ill, you just passed judgement on him.

 

We all judge.

 

Next time somone says to you "Who are you to judge?" just say "I judge because you judge."

 

.

 

Brozepen,

You seem to like to apply your own values to other people? I think if someone is honest with us or not also depends on how we react toward them. I think if we behave like we have such high moral, telling others that a certain thing is right or wrong because the society think so, or because the majority of the people think so, we may create a situation that other may not feel comfortable with us. People are only open to those they believe would listen to them, would not judge them and accept them with all their imperfection. By saying that we must all behave a certain way, you failed to accept the individual difference, we are humans, we are all NOT the same, this is what make us unique!!

You are right to say that happiness is not something you turn on and off, I believe that most people who are not happy in their marriage must have spoken with their W/H about their problems, and most likely, more than one time. If our husbands keep telling us that nothing is wrong, that they love us and then they go ahead and have an affair, I think we should still ask ourselves, why are we so stupid to marry someone who could be so dishonest with us? And why can't he be more open with us? Is it because we behave in a certain way? In the end, we are still to blame!! I am a strong believer in that when a marriage falls apart, the fault is never only one sided, usually, both parties are to blame to some degree. Before, we blame our H/W for having an affair; we should ask ourselves, what have we done wrong? Are we really the perfect wives/husband? Have we also honored all our vows to love him unconditionally?

When you wrote:” We all want our significant other to be happy. It goes both ways"

You are already talking about a conditional love, which in my opinion, is NOT real love! If I truly love another person, I would not care how he reacts towards me; I would not ask something in return, I would only wish him nothing but happiness!! Just like when you love your child, you would love him or her no matter what; you would not say that "it goes both ways"

 

Saying someone is mentally ill is NOT a judgment I made, it is a medical fact! If a doctor tells you have cancer, he is not making a judgment on you; he is simply stating the fact.

 

You on the other hand are making a judgment on another person because you are saying what they do is right or wrong, good or bad based on your standard or the standard of our society, I am NOT making a judgment on another person because I will NOT say what they do is right or wrong, good or bad, because I simply may not know all the facts to say so and I believe that there maybe a certain reasons why you may behave the way you do!!

 

You are saying that what the society accept must be the right thing, are you also saying that if we were born 200 years ago, we should also agree that slavery is the right thing?

 

You are of course free to believe what you would like to believe. But please do not label me as the same type as person as you because I am NOT!

[EnigmaXOXO]

Saying someone is mentally ill is NOT a judgment I made, it is a medical fact! If a doctor tells you have cancer, he is not making a judgment on you; he is simply stating the fact.

 

And when someone is being dishonest, and you state that he is dishonest, it is not a judgment, simply stating the fact.

 

Having "good" judgment is not only beneficiary, but it's a basic primordial instinct put there to keep ourselves from danger. Rather perceived or real. Those without it are usually eliminated from the gene pull via natural selection. The poor caveman who misjudged the intentions of the lion was usually the first one eaten…while the smart ones got away and learned to climb trees.

 

So you see, even stupid cavemen served a purpose by aided in the survival of the fittest and strongest. And by watching his blunders, the rest of us learned that Lion = RUUUUN!! Be fortunate that your ancestors were the smart ones, otherwise you wouldn't be here arguing otherwise today.

 

BTW: lying, cheating, married person also = RUUUUN!

 

Has nothing to do with morality … it's just darn good "judgment".

[jj003]

Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO

And when someone is being dishonest, and you state that he is dishonest, it is not a judgment, simply stating the fact.

 

Having "good" judgment is not only beneficiary, but it's a basic primordial instinct put there to keep ourselves from danger. Rather perceived or real. Those without it are usually eliminated from the gene pull via natural selection. The poor caveman who misjudged the intentions of the lion was usually the first one eaten…while the smart ones got away and learned to climb trees.

 

So you see, even stupid cavemen served a purpose by aided in the survival of the fittest and strongest. And by watching his blunders, the rest of us learned that Lion = RUUUUN!! Be fortunate that your ancestors were the smart ones, otherwise you wouldn't be here arguing otherwise today.

 

BTW: lying, cheating, married person also = RUUUUN!

 

Has nothing to do with morality … it's just darn good "judgment".

 

All I am saying is that you can LOVE a married person and if you love this person enough and unconditionally, you will respect his decision and you would want him to be happy in what ever he chooses to do, so if he is happy with his wife, you'll be happy for him and keep ypur love in your own heart ! and just be a friend to him if he should ever need you. If you love a person, you wish him all the best and nothing else, you do not demand that he be yours, that he leave his family for you, or he stay with you because of a piece of paper, if you love a person, you will let him be free to choose what he thinks that will make him happy!

So loving a married person is nothing to be ashame of ! and having a piece of paper doesn't give you the right to make another person unhappy!

 

As they say, if you love something enough, you will let it go free ! That goes for both the W and the OW !!

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by newbby

i don’t actually recall defending my actions though, i simply said why does the ow get the majority of the blame and no understanding when the cs gets understanding and a small portion of the blame? that was my original post. i have not defended myself as the ow a huge deal, its not something i am particularly proud of then again its also not something i hate myself for doing, i get why i did it, i don’t feel the need to explain it either.

however that was not the original topic and i think i raised a valid point and i don’t think it is indicative of great insecurity to raise it. i think it is unfair, that is all.

 

 

Remember how I answered your question.

 

Because you broke/break an unwritten rule, society will stigmatize you (judge).

 

Because the cs broke a vow, not a rule, society frowns on him but no stigma attached to him or her.

 

From that explanation, you questioned societies judgment on OW/OM. From there was where you started to defend yourself.

 

I then explained to you, that people who are irked by judges (society) are insecure (meat eater).

 

I said for you to separated the two.

 

Question society for judging but don't let society make you insecure because of your actions.

 

 

Brozepen,

You seem to like to apply your own values to other people? I think if someone is honest with us or not also depends on how we react toward them. I think if we behave like we have such high moral, telling others that a certain thing is right or wrong because the society think so, or because the majority of the people think so, we may create a situation that other may not feel comfortable with us. People are only open to those they believe would listen to them, would not judge them and accept them with all their imperfection. By saying that we must all behave a certain way, you failed to accept the individual difference, we are humans, we are all NOT the same, this is what make us unique!!

You are right to say that happiness is not something you turn on and off, I believe that most people who are not happy in their marriage must have spoken with their W/H about their problems, and most likely, more than one time. If our husbands keep telling us that nothing is wrong, that they love us and then they go ahead and have an affair, I think we should still ask ourselves, why are we so stupid to marry someone who could be so dishonest with us? And why can't he be more open with us? Is it because we behave in a certain way? In the end, we are still to blame!! I am a strong believer in that when a marriage falls apart, the fault is never only one sided, usually, both parties are to blame to some degree. Before, we blame our H/W for having an affair; we should ask ourselves, what have we done wrong? Are we really the perfect wives/husband? Have we also honored all our vows to love him unconditionally?

 

I don't recall every saying or applying my values to other people. Or even saying that we should behave a certain way.

 

You know what I find interesting, to you it is a blaming game. According to you, because the wife or husband did not listen or read the signs then it's their fault that the infidelity was committed.

 

This is where we disagree. Correct me if I am wrong but for you the root cause of infidelity is the absence of unconditional love, right?

 

See for me, the root cause is human nature. People will (in general) stray because they can. People will lie because they can. People will steal because they can. People will kill because they can. etc....

 

All of the human traits that I stated above are considered by Society as bad human traits. So laws, regulations, rules and taboos are created to keep them in check.

 

When you wrote:” We all want our significant other to be happy. It goes both ways"

You are already talking about a conditional love, which in my opinion, is NOT real love! If I truly love another person, I would not care how he reacts towards me; I would not ask something in return, I would only wish him nothing but happiness!! Just like when you love your child, you would love him or her no matter what; you would not say that "it goes both ways"

 

No, I wasn't talking about conditional love when I said happiness goes both ways. What I was saying was that a wife would want husband to be happy and a husband would want a wife to be happy. Never said that one should expect the other person to make them happy.

 

 

Saying someone is mentally ill is NOT a judgment I made, it is a medical fact! If a doctor tells you have cancer, he is not making a judgment on you; he is simply stating the fact.

 

Semantics -

 

Try to remember what being a judge involves. To form an opinion or estimation of, after careful consideration.

 

A judge forms an opinion or assumption based on the "FACTS", reputation, actions, analysis, study, test, etc... that are available.

 

 

 

You on the other hand are making a judgment on another person because you are saying what they do is right or wrong, good or bad based on your standard or the standard of our society, I am NOT making a judgment on another person because I will NOT say what they do is right or wrong, good or bad, because I simply may not know all the facts to say so and I believe that there maybe a certain reasons why you may behave the way you do!!

 

No, as I stated before it's not about right or wrong it's about human nature. Read above what I talk about the way society handles the "bad" traits.

 

You are saying that what the society accept must be the right thing, are you also saying that if we were born 200 years ago, we should also agree that slavery is the right thing?

 

Never said society was right. You keep misinterpreting what I am saying.

 

See my replies to newbby concerning on how we should question society.

 

 

You are of course free to believe what you would like to believe. But please do not label me as the same type as person as you because I am NOT!

 

 

Your last sentence you say that I am a "type" of person, sounds like you have formed an opinion of me based on what I have written.

 

For a person that says you never judge, you sure have judged me accordingly.

[newbby]

You may also be mistaken in thinking I was being defensive. The question came to me obviously as a result of a personal situation. I would not have questioned it had I not experienced it in some form or read about it or come across it.

The fact that it was a result of a personal situation does not neccessarily mean that I am questioning society in self defense.

Why do people generally conform to unwritten laws anyway, is it not a result of not wanting to be rejected by society? Isnt this how a general consensus remains in place, even when it is not a law but a code of behaviour?

Isnt the questioning of these 'rules' also part of the evolution of society?

 

Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO

And when someone is being dishonest, and you state that he is dishonest, it is not a judgment, simply stating the fact.

 

Having "good" judgment is not only beneficiary, but it's a basic primordial instinct put there to keep ourselves from danger. Rather perceived or real. Those without it are usually eliminated from the gene pull via natural selection. The poor caveman who misjudged the intentions of the lion was usually the first one eaten…while the smart ones got away and learned to climb trees.

 

So you see, even stupid cavemen served a purpose by aided in the survival of the fittest and strongest. And by watching his blunders, the rest of us learned that Lion = RUUUUN!! Be fortunate that your ancestors were the smart ones, otherwise you wouldn't be here arguing otherwise today.

 

BTW: lying, cheating, married person also = RUUUUN!

 

Has nothing to do with morality … it's just darn good "judgment".

 

if you believe in a darwinian society, you must also believe in evolution of society, perhaps marriage itself is on its way out.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by newbby

You may also be mistaken in thinking I was being defensive. The question came to me obviously as a result of a personal situation. I would not have questioned it had I not experienced it in some form or read about it or come across it.

The fact that it was a result of a personal situation does not neccessarily mean that I am questioning society in self defense.

 

Fair enough.

 

Why do people generally conform to unwritten laws anyway, is it not a result of not wanting to be rejected by society? Isnt this how a general consensus remains in place, even when it is not a law but a code of behaviour?

Isnt the questioning of these 'rules' also part of the evolution of society?

 

Absolutely. We are social beings and to be part of the "club" you have to follow certain rules.

 

Overtime some rules are changed or become obsolete.

 

The thing is, some rules take a very long time before becoming obsolete and the act is acceptable. Homosexuality has come a long way but still has a long road ahead of it.

 

Then there are some rules that will never be acceptable, ie.. taking a life. Of course wars, police actions and self defense are the exceptions. There's always exceptions.

[newbby]

Then there are some rules that will never be acceptable, ie.. taking a life. Of course wars, police actions and self defense are the exceptions. There's always exceptions.

yes

[jj003]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

 

 

I don't recall every saying or applying my values to other people. Or even saying that we should behave a certain way.

 

You know what I find interesting, to you it is a blaming game. According to you, because the wife or husband did not listen or read the signs then it's their fault that the infidelity was committed.

 

This is where we disagree. Correct me if I am wrong but for you the root cause of infidelity is the absence of unconditional love, right?

 

 

 

.

This's not what I meant, I am saying that human are human, we do change, we are not the person we were 20 years ago and we may not feel the same way we did 20 years ago. sometimes, this work, we may still feel the same, but sometimes, we don't feel the same. And just because someone promised you something 20 years ago do not and should NOT give you a right to hold on to what they say. You seem to keep missing the point I was trying to get across, perhaps I cannot express myself well enough. I wanted to say is if we love someone , we can accept that they may change their minds about loving us and we will love them enough to let them make their own decisions !! IT IS NOT A BLAMING GAME!!! please do not put things in my mouth that I did NOT say !!!

 

Originally posted by Bronzepen

No, I wasn't talking about conditional love when I said happiness goes both ways. What I was saying was that a wife would want husband to be happy and a husband would want a wife to be happy. Never said that one should expect the other person to make them happy.

 

.

No one is talking about expecting anything ! I want my H to be happy, I do not expect anything in return from him, that he must give something back in return...it is entirely up to him ! I also feel the same way about "mm". You seem to keep missing the point, I never said one should expect the other to make them happy, once you use the word expect, it is conditional already !! for me, it is NOT love !

 

Originally posted by Bronzepen

So your saying infidelity should not be looked down upon but should be embraced?

 

Just looking for clarification. .

By you saying this, you gave others the impression that you do agree with the society...that infidelity should be looked down upon , by you making such a statment, you gave the impression that you believe the society is correct. perhaps, this is not how you actually feel, perhaps you don't agree withe society...but you will give others such an impression by making the above statment. You do not need to convince me any further that this is not what you meant, because I do admit it was simply an impression, it may not be the case !

 

 

 

Originally posted by Bronzepen

 

Question society for judging but don't let society make you insecure because of your actions.

 

.

 

I think if a person is really secure, there is no need even to question the society, he or she would simply not care what the society may think !!

I have repeated this many times, you again missed my point.

I think we have some major disagreement on judging..

when I am saying that we are not the same type of people, it is NOT a judgment, it is again stating the facts cause we seem to have very different values and beliefs in life.

BUT i am not judging you because I am not saying you are right or wrong just because we believe in different things, yet you seem to have a need to insist on your point is the absolute true, just like you want to insist that we all judge and your definition of judging is the correct interpretation. But there is NOTHING absolute in this world.

I would not disagree with you further on this point coz we seem to not be able to come to the same agreement. That's why I wrote that you are free to believe in what you like to believe, but don't try to convince others like me, who would not see eye to eye with you.

[jj003]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

 

Try to remember what being a judge involves. To form an opinion or estimation of, after careful consideration.

 

A judge forms an opinion or assumption based on the "FACTS", reputation, actions, analysis, study, test, etc... that are available.

 

 

.

 

A judge also decides if a person is guilty ot not? that is same as if a person is right or wrong...this is a judge !! Don't forget his most important role.

As long as we do not form an opinion of another person by saying he/she is guilty or not, right or wrong, w are not a judge...

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by jj003

This's not what I meant, I am saying that human are human, we do change, we are not the person we were 20 years ago and we may not feel the same way we did 20 years ago. sometimes, this work, we may still feel the same, but sometimes, we don't feel the same. And just because someone promised you something 20 years ago do not and should NOT give you a right to hold on to what they say. You seem to keep missing the point I was trying to get across, perhaps I cannot express myself well enough. I wanted to say is if we love someone , we can accept that they may change their minds about loving us and we will love them enough to let them make their own decisions !!

 

But doesn't trust come into question? Your right, no one can keep you to your promises but what defines a persons character is their words and actions.

 

If I follow your logic correctly then no one should ever make promises, take a vow, sign a contract because if things take a turn for the worse then they will not honor their word.

 

Does this happend, you bet. Should we let it happend or accept this because people change? No, society will crumble and you will have chaos. That's why society holds you to your word, if you don't then your chastized, fined, imprisoned or put to death.

 

 

Love is not permanent (people change their minds) but then again, neither is anything else, so should we do whatever we want because nothing last forever?

 

IT IS NOT A BLAMING GAME!!! please do not put things in my mouth that I did NOT say !!!

 

You wrote:

"If our husbands keep telling us that nothing is wrong, that they love us and then they go ahead and have an affair, I think we should still ask ourselves, why are we so stupid to marry someone who could be so dishonest with us? And why can't he be more open with us? Is it because we behave in a certain way? In the end, we are still to blame!! I am a strong believer in that when a marriage falls apart, the fault is never only one sided, usually, both parties are to blame to some degree. Before, we blame our H/W for having an affair; we should ask ourselves, what have we done wrong? Are we really the perfect wives/husband? Have we also honored all our vows to love him unconditionally?"

 

Sounds like a blaming game and there is nothing wrong with you thinking this way.

 

 

No one is talking about expecting anything ! I want my H to be happy, I do not expect anything in return from him, that he must give something back in return...it is entirely up to him ! I also feel the same way about "mm". You seem to keep missing the point, I never said one should expect the other to make them happy, once you use the word expect, it is conditional already !! for me, it is NOT love !

 

Uh, that's what I said. You just repeated what I wrote.

 

 

By you saying this, you gave others the impression that you do agree with the society...that infidelity should be looked down upon , by you making such a statement, you gave the impression that you believe the society is correct. perhaps, this is not how you actually feel, perhaps you don't agree with society...but you will give others such an impression by making the above statement. You do not need to convince me any further that this is not what you meant, because I do admit it was simply an impression, it may not be the case !

 

Your reaching there.

 

Actually the sentence "Just looking for clarification." means I am being sincere and not condescending. That should have defused any misinterpretation. If you would have read the entire conversation between Newbby and I, you would have seen realized that you got the wrong impression.

 

You seem to take a defensive attitude on this topic.

 

Read the conversation I have with newbbye, you will understand what I am talking about. "The Insecure meat eater."

 

 

 

 

think if a person is really secure, there is no need even to question the society, he or she would simply not care what the society may think !!

 

See above statement.

 

 

I have repeated this many times, you again missed my point.

I think we have some major disagreement on judging..

when I am saying that we are not the same type of people, it is NOT a judgment, it is again stating the facts cause we seem to have very different values and beliefs in life.

 

You still judge people based on fact. OK, let me put it another way.

 

What kind of person is your mother (apologies if I offend you by mentioning your mother.)? Is she nice, kind, warm, etc...

 

Or same sentence and meaning

 

How do you judge your mother? Is she nice, kind, warm, etc...

 

 

Different values and beliefs? How did you come to that conclusion (judging again)?

 

BUT i am not judging you because I am not saying you are right or wrong just because we believe in different things, yet you seem to have a need to insist on your point is the absolute true, just like you want to insist that we all judge and your definition of judging is the correct interpretation. But there is NOTHING absolute in this world.

I would not disagree with you further on this point coz we seem to not be able to come to the same agreement. That's why I wrote that you are free to believe in what you like to believe, but don't try to convince others like me, who would not see eye to eye with you.

 

That's your interpretation (another judge). I never insisted or said my point was right or it's the only way to think. You jump to conclusions too much. You try too hard to read into a person and their thoughts. Just read the words, take them at face value, don't look for the hidden meanings or personal attacks.

 

BTW, saying "There is nothing absolute in this world." is an absolute in itself.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by jj003

A judge also decides if a person is guilty ot not? that is same as if a person is right or wrong...this is a judge !! Don't forget his most important role.

As long as we do not form an opinion of another person by saying he/she is guilty or not, right or wrong, w are not a judge...

 

Wrong. A jury decides if a person is quilty or not.

 

In the courts, it's not a question of right or wrong. It's if a person is found quilty of breaking a law. Once a verdict is given, a judge will pass sentence base on the code of law. This is the role of a judge in the judicial system.

 

In society as a whole, everyone is a judge BUT it's not judicial.

 

Your getting yourself mixed up.

[jj003]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

Wrong. A jury decides if a person is quilty or not.

 

In the courts, it's not a question of right or wrong. It's if a person is found quilty of breaking a law. Once a verdict is given, a judge will pass sentence base on the code of law. This is the role of a judge in the judicial system.

 

In society as a whole, everyone is a judge BUT it's not judicial.

 

Your getting yourself mixed up.

 

Not all countries have jury system, ina ll trails - no need to argue about this point.

you just keep misunderstanding what I am saying, I said in the court, it is a judge duty to find you guilty or not, this is a judge

we, in real life, become a judge when we find other guilty or not = h is guilty of lies, ow is guilty of being selfish etc, this is to say something is right or worng!!!

PLEASE DO NOT put things in my mouth to win your arguments!!

I may find my mother not to be so loving, but i do not judge her, I accept her and love her for who she is with all her imperfections!!! I also do not blame her for NOT loving me enough!!

need to ansswer you later on other issues.

[jj003]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

But doesn't trust come into question? Your right, no one can keep you to your promises but what defines a persons character is their words and actions.

 

If I follow your logic correctly then no one should ever make promises, take a vow, sign a contract because if things take a turn for the worse then they will not honor their word.

 

Does this happend, you bet. Should we let it happend or accept this because people change? No, society will crumble and you will have chaos. That's why society holds you to your word, if you don't then your chastized, fined, imprisoned or put to death.

 

 

Love is not permanent (people change their minds) but then again, neither is anything else, so should we do whatever we want because nothing last forever?

 

 

.

 

No, it is not true,", society will crumble and you will have chaos. That's why society holds you to your word" Do you know how many % of marriages end up in divorce? in some countries, there are more divorces than marriages per year...and you know what, society, even our society, do accept people who are divorced. Society does not condemn those who change their mind and break their promises, perhaps you do...but please do not apply your values to others . I feel you are applying your values on to others because of your words above " that society holds you to your words", this is your belief, your value, but the society do accept divorce, divorce=people who change their minds, break their promises...etc.

 

Originally posted by Bronzepen

You wrote:

"If our husbands keep telling us that nothing is wrong, that they love us and then they go ahead and have an affair, I think we should still ask ourselves, why are we so stupid to marry someone who could be so dishonest with us? And why can't he be more open with us? Is it because we behave in a certain way? In the end, we are still to blame!! I am a strong believer in that when a marriage falls apart, the fault is never only one sided, usually, both parties are to blame to some degree. Before, we blame our H/W for having an affair; we should ask ourselves, what have we done wrong? Are we really the perfect wives/husband? Have we also honored all our vows to love him unconditionally?"

 

Sounds like a blaming game and there is nothing wrong with you thinking this way..

 

You again like to twist my words, what I want to say is that before we blame our husbands, mm or anyone, look at what we have done to contribute to the situation! Are we so perfect that the faults are all others? Rather, I think we should see if we have done anything wrong ourselves before pointing fingure at others?? This is call blamining game? you have a "different way" of seeing thing !! Do not blame another, look into ourselves, our behavior to see what have done to contribute to the situation we are not happy in, so we hopefully would do better the next time and would not make the same mistakes!!

 

If all we ever say is" This is all my H's fault, he broke his promises to me, his vows to me and have an affair with OW" or " This is all mm's fault, he lied and tricked me into having an affair with him." but never ever look at our own contribution in the situation leading to the break up of the marriage or in having an affair, I think there is a good chance that even we maybe able to overcome our"difficulties" this time, we will have similar situations in the future.

 

I am saying, please do NOT twist my words " before we blame anyone, change ourselves !! respect another, forgive them for their mistakes! and find happiness within ourselves"

You know what, we cannot change our H or our mm, but we can change ourselves"

 

 

Originally posted by Bronzepen We all want our significant other to be happy. It goes both ways"

You were not talking about the same thing as me!!

This is what you wrote: "goes both way", what it implies is "I do this for you, you do the same for me," this is an expectation of getting something in return! If it were unconditional, you would not use the word"both ways" you just do what you think is right regardless what the other person might do! so you will not say "it goes both ways"

 

No. we are NOT talking about the same thing, remember you wrote"Should we let it happend or accept this because people change? No, society will crumble and you will have chaos. That's why society holds you to your word," This is only YOUR view of the society, while you have forgotten that the society DO accept people who change their minds, that's why there are divorces!!!

 

you are contridicting yourselves while you told newbby about a secure person would not care what the society think, because you on he other hand want to make sure that she is aware of "the society will condemn her for her behavior"

 

As they say" actions speak louder than words"

It is not me who is defensive, it is you, perhaps you have been hurt..I am sorry for that!

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by jj003

Not all countries have jury system, ina ll trails - no need to argue about this point.

you just keep misunderstanding what I am saying, I said in the court, it is a judge duty to find you guilty or not, this is a judge

we, in real life, become a judge when we find other guilty or not = h is guilty of lies, ow is guilty of being selfish etc, this is to say something is right or worng!!!

PLEASE DO NOT put things in my mouth to win your arguments!!

I may find my mother not to be so loving, but i do not judge her, I accept her and love her for who she is with all her imperfections!!! I also do not blame her for NOT loving me enough!!

need to ansswer you later on other issues.

 

 

But you just judged your mother by saying that she may not be so loving. To use your own terminology, you found your mother guilty of not be so loving. That is a judgment call.

 

Accepting and loving her with all her imperfections is STILL judging because now, not only have you judged her but also you have past sentence. You judged her for having imperfections but your sentence is acceptance of her imperfection.

 

That's fine to think that way about your mother but the bottom line is you still judged her.

 

You formed an opinion about your mother. That is a judgment call.

 

I am not putting words in your mouth, you just don't understand the definition of the word JUDGE.

 

 

You seem to be on the defense with everything. Don't take or interpreter everything as a negative or a personal attack.

 

I am speaking objectively not subjectively.

 

 

 

No, it is not true,", society will crumble and you will have chaos. That's why society holds you to your word" Do you know how many % of marriages end up in divorce? in some countries, there are more divorces than marriages per year...and you know what, society, even our society, do accept people who are divorced. Society does not condemn those who change their mind and break their promises, perhaps you do...but please do not apply your values to others . I feel you are applying your values on to others because of your words above " that society holds you to your words", this is your belief, your value, but the society do accept divorce, divorce=people who change their minds, break their promises...etc.

 

Again, don't take it personally. It's objective. You keep saying "Don't put words in my mouth." but your doing the same to me.

 

Now we have full come circle.

 

Please go back and read what I said about society and infidelity, OW/OM, vows and contracts.

 

And remember, I am speaking about society in the majority. There are always the minority and exceptions to the rule. Rules change when the majority becomes the minority.

 

My statement about society holding you to your word is about ALL agreements, contracts and vows. I was not only talking about marriage.

 

Can society continue with infidelity, of course. Can society continue if ALL contracts and vows, legal and not legal, no it cannot.

 

It's not about my values but society's in general. If society doesn't condemn people that break their promises, whether verbal or on paper then why are people taken to court for breaking contracts?

 

I never said society doesn't accept divorce. I said society frowns/condemns infidelity. If the after math of infidelity is divorce then it's acceptable to society. Please read what I wrote.

 

 

quote:Originally posted by Bronzepen

You wrote:

"If our husbands keep telling us that nothing is wrong, that they love us and then they go ahead and have an affair, I think we should still ask ourselves, why are we so stupid to marry someone who could be so dishonest with us? And why can't he be more open with us? Is it because we behave in a certain way? In the end, we are still to blame!! I am a strong believer in that when a marriage falls apart, the fault is never only one sided, usually, both parties are to blame to some degree. Before, we blame our H/W for having an affair; we should ask ourselves, what have we done wrong? Are we really the perfect wives/husband? Have we also honored all our vows to love him unconditionally?"

 

Sounds like a blaming game and there is nothing wrong with you thinking this way..

 

 

 

You again like to twist my words, what I want to say is that before we blame our husbands, mm or anyone, look at what we have done to contribute to the situation! Are we so perfect that the faults are all others? Rather, I think we should see if we have done anything wrong ourselves before pointing fingure at others?? This is call blamining game? you have a "different way" of seeing thing !! Do not blame another, look into ourselves, our behavior to see what have done to contribute to the situation we are not happy in, so we hopefully would do better the next time and would not make the same mistakes!!

 

If all we ever say is" This is all my H's fault, he broke his promises to me, his vows to me and have an affair with OW" or " This is all mm's fault, he lied and tricked me into having an affair with him." but never ever look at our own contribution in the situation leading to the break up of the marriage or in having an affair, I think there is a good chance that even we maybe able to overcome our"difficulties" this time, we will have similar situations in the future.

 

I am saying, please do NOT twist my words " before we blame anyone, change ourselves !! respect another, forgive them for their mistakes! and find happiness within ourselves"

You know what, we cannot change our H or our mm, but we can change ourselves"

 

Fair enough.

 

Just remember I look at things objectively. So when you say the H/W or MW/MM should look at themselves because they may be at blame, I took it as you blaming them.

 

Remember, I am outside looking in.

 

 

 

quote:Originally posted by Bronzepen We all want our significant other to be happy. It goes both ways"

 

 

You were not talking about the same thing as me!!

This is what you wrote: "goes both way", what it implies is "I do this for you, you do the same for me," this is an expectation of getting something in return! If it were unconditional, you would not use the word"both ways" you just do what you think is right regardless what the other person might do! so you will not say "it goes both ways"

 

When you said "I want my H to be happy, I do not expect anything in return from him, that he must give something back in return...it is entirely up to him". I said, it goes both ways, meaning the H wants his wife to be happy and should not expect anything in return from her, as well. It goes both ways. Remember I am outside looking in.

 

No. we are NOT talking about the same thing, remember you wrote"Should we let it happend or accept this because people change? No, society will crumble and you will have chaos. That's why society holds you to your word," This is only YOUR view of the society, while you have forgotten that the society DO accept people who change their minds, that's why there are divorces!!!

 

Again, read above. I am speaking about infidelity.

 

you are contridicting yourselves while you told newbby about a secure person would not care what the society think, because you on he other hand want to make sure that she is aware of "the society will condemn her for her behavior"

 

As they say" actions speak louder than words"

It is not me who is defensive, it is you, perhaps you have been hurt..I am sorry for that!

 

I don't see the contradiction anywhere. Nor do I see how I am being defensive. Last, I have not been hurt. Also, whether I have or have not been hurt is irrelevant, concerning this topic.

 

Society does condemn her, that's a given. Read the topic of this thread.

 

Let me try to sum it what I said and this applies to you because you really are an insecure meat eater.

 

Society is aware that we are not perfect human beings but for society to function, laws, rules, regulations, taboos, etc... are created to keep people in check. Society has a way of dealing with people that break the rules by applying a negative consequence.

 

Certain laws, rules, regulations, taboos, etc... come into question because the balance between the majority and minority is close.

 

This is what I suggested to newbby.

 

Question society for judging but don't let society make you insecure because of your actions.