2 kids, 2 girls, infidelity again, I have finally woken up, I think

[jesslindy]

Hello All,

 

I love this website and I appreciate in advance anyone who responds and listens. This website has always been very therapeutic to read and write on.

 

I'll make this long story as short as possible. Not really looking for advice, although all is welcome. Just wanted to type this as some therapy, and share what I have learned.

 

I posted about my current ex here 5 years ago, and damn if I wasn't right. Hahaha. Its here ------> http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/breaks-breaking-up/251375-broke-up-yesterday-i-m-sad-right-thing-do

 

Here are my issues in relationships, confirmed by my counselor and all my close family and friends, who do not validate me. I'm angry, and I internalize that anger incorrectly. My anger did not reach a suffocating point until very late in my relationship, although my anger and negativity steadily grew after the birth of my daughter. My anger and negativity stemmed from my soon to be wife discounting me, which I perceive as disrespect, which did not allow me to show love correctly. I am not a violent angry, just a grumpy angry, which I know can be very hard to deal with.

 

I am mad at myself, not at my ex. I am mad at myself because I knew who she was and what that would allow her to be capable of in our relationship. Although early on, I didn't know how bad her insecurities were, I knew they were a problem, and I went on anyway. Why you ask??? I'm a selfless fixer. That's why.

 

My girlfriend, soon to be wife in May, was having an emotional affair for months, that turned physical immediately after she left our vacation in Vegas early. Or so she says, but who cares now? I have been lied to, along with everyone else, so many times I can't keep the truth straight anymore.

 

She was carrying an emotional, inappropriate, relationship while she was paying cash for our wedding. That's sick. She actually brought my daughter around this guy, just once, before she even moved out of my house, that's mental.

 

I knew she was up to something, because I could just look at her and tell. I've always been able to see right through her, and it scares the **** out of her.

 

She was constantly projecting infidelity onto me, which I knew was a sign, again I ignored it. I never ran around on her. NEVER. There was no reason for me too. I was in extreme love with her, and physically she really did it for me, and I know I was that for her as well. Sex was never one of our issues. It was intense.

 

I ignored these signs because in the beginning of our relationship, our love and companionship was intense. It made me feel amazing. I am the only person she has ever been vulnerable with, and for some reason I felt that was enough to pull us through anything. I know, stupid, but its the truth.

 

I know every demon and skeleton she has, and her mine, and I felt that was a strong enough bond to keep us together, even through some rough rapids. Again, even though she would never admit it, I would have supported her through any therapy or breakdown she had. In fact, I would have shot myself in the head to save her life.

 

She has always tried to create a person in her mind, that she wishes to be, but isn't. She conveys these ideas through avenues like Facebook, and social media, and in turn likes the people who validate this image. I stopped validating it when this image no longer included me after our daughter was born. I was discounted heavily after our daughter was born. She was still nice to me, but the discounting hurt me, and I expressed it to no avail. Her self image went from perfect girlfriend with the perfect relationship, to perfect mom, which didn't include me anymore. It didn't go unnoticed from alot of people we knew. It hurts me greatly.

 

This all happened 3 weeks ago, so its still pretty fresh. But I am doing okay. I understand why she did what she did, because I understand her. Her insecurities and narcissism were very hard for me to deal with and it turned me into a curmudgeon, and a negative nancy, which yes I understand I am in control of that, and can do better with my reactions, but changing the dynamic of a relationship with no reciprocation becomes tiring. I grew tired.

 

With all of this being said, I love her immensely, and I have a deep care for her, and hope she one day has the wake up call she needs to be an acceptable partner to someone. I was hoping this could have been it, yet that remains to be seen, the way she has acted during and since this makes me think it isn't coming any time soon.

 

She has moved out her stuff, and lives in a small house, not to far from me. Our daughter(3) is a wonderful child, and she is a great mom, and I a great dad, so that should be fine.

 

She says she's not seeing this guy anymore, but that's most likely a lie. I'm not spying or anything so I don't know and I really don't care. I can always take comfort in the fact that I do not have a choice. I am just going to be the best Father, Man, and friend I can be. Hopefully the world, and her, will notice. I miss her very much. I will use and welcome my pain to grow.

 

I also know she is feeling extremely guilty. She has called me more in the last 3 weeks then she has in the last year. I have been nothing but nice, except for the first initial days obviously. I'm assuming she wants me back, but will probably never admit it. Who knows? Until we both get our acts together, whether the scales are tipped heavily in that arena to her or not, neither of us should be in a relationship. A perfect her, and a perfect me, would be unstoppable. I'm going to do my part. That's all I can do.

 

The odds are slim she will ever read this because I feel like she has just moved out, and even if she isn't talking to this guy anymore, she will either just exist, or find someone else. But if she does, I'm sorry, and I love you, and I miss you, and I hope someday you can apologize to me correctly, and find the time to realize what we had, what you threw away, and what we could have been, had you not chosen this path out of our relationship.

 

She knows how I feel about her, but its just too damn scary for her to walk the road. I get it, just wish it was different, that's all.

 

Thanks for listening.

[jesslindy]

Also, I'm aware of the conditions involved, like BPD and NPD, I just hate to throw around those terms since I'm not a therapist.

 

One other thing I didn't mention is how she actually admits her shortcomings and lies to me, but to no one else. For example, directly after I found out she was lying about me to anyone who would listen, we were having a heated conversation and she was actually chuckling at me when she was in the car next to her friend, but then she gets out of the car and isn't in earshot of anyone else, she says "You have every right to be angry, I'm sorry". Again, I get it why she does it, but it's quite maddening to know she knows what she is doing, yet can do nothing about it. It's maddening.

 

I had her completely broken down the night she admitted to cheating, and I held her anyway. Not in a doormat way, just a caring way, because again, I'm a selfless idiot. This is the most maddening thing about this. She knows in her heart of hearts what she's doing is wrong, she knows she very guilty, and she knows how selfless I am, yet still runs away. Oh well, get busy livin they say. That's what I'm doing.

[Downtown]

Her self image went from perfect girlfriend with the perfect relationship, to perfect mom, which didn't include me anymore.... Her insecurities and narcissism were very hard for me to deal with.

Jess, welcome back to LoveShack. I'm sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with your GF. It would be helpful, I believe, if you would please tell us more specifically the narcissistic traits you are seeing. I ask for this extra detail because your experience seems to closely parallel that of Testmeasure, who believes that his Ex has strong NPD traits.

 

Like you, Test describes a woman who was wonderful for many years, largely because her narrative of being "the perfect couple" was validated by him and thus was successful in helping her feel happy. Then, after they had a child together, she replaced that false self image with a new narrative: being "the perfect mother." Yet, because Test had more time to spend caring for the baby, his Ex was unable to receive validation of her new false self image, resulting in her going into a series of rages during a year of unhappiness.

 

I am hopeful Test will have time to join your thread. Meanwhile, I suggest you take a look at his posts in MelleyMel's thread, starting with Test's post #98.

[jesslindy]

Thanks Downtown.

 

She by no means has every trait of a full blown narcissist, but a large mix of narcissism and insecurities.

 

She replaced her "love" for me after our child was born, with "love" for other people. She gave me two middle fingers at my feelings after our daughter was born. And soon after that she started compensating by helping other people, while I sat at home ignored. She always made sure everyone on social media knew she was helping others. Her empathy for my feelings went away. If she ever had any.

 

She creates a version of herself in her head, of who she would like to be, and seeks validation for that on social media. I told her she was beautiful and gorgeous almost every day, but it meant nothing from me, only other people. Then she would tell me how she felt unattractive and ugly. She is not.

 

When we first got together, one of the things I would always say is, "I want to call each other out, but love and support each other anyway." That slowly became a problem for her, she would isolate when being called out. To be fair, as our relationship deteriorated, I did that too. Because I was beating my head against the wall.

 

She has to be praised, and makes sure to let you know when she feels she has accomplished something. I had no problem supporting those feelings, but I grew tired of doing it when I was busting my ass, making all the cash, and stopped being respected like a man. When she stopped drawing her half of the respect/love circle, we started falling apart.

 

She is emotionally unavailable, not at first, but after our daughter was born. In the beginning, I was let in. She has told me many times I am the only one to know her secrets. Is it a lie?? I'm not sure, I tend not to think that, but it doesn't matter. Her communication stopped completely with me after our daughter was born.

 

I have known her for 13 years now. She used to tell me all the time that she has been in love with me since the first day she saw me. I now know, its because I used to pay attention to her back then, and I have a lot of the qualities she didn't and does not have. I am loyal, outgoing, successful, fun to be around, and I get smarter everyday. She doesn't possess these things. Narcissists are attracted the most to people that have the qualities they would like to have, but don't. As I understand it.

 

I cant tell you how many times she would twist my words to make her look good and me bad. I can't tell you how many times she took credit for something I said or did. Even the stupidest things. I caught her telling people at work she had done a bunch of stuff around the house, and made these cookies I had made. That's being discounted as if you don't exist. Makes me sick.

 

She was envious of my success. Which I did for my family, by the way. Me and a few other people started a national company as a spin off of the company I work for. It's been very successful. I couldn't even tell her where I went to eat for dinner with a client without it making her jealous. I tried to include her as much as I could. I am the only person to ever take her on a real vacation, or on a plane. She always vilified me for trying to be smarter. I'm always reading a book. It made her mad that I like to learn and grow.

 

She blame shifts all the time. If something bad happens to her, its always someone else's fault.

 

She has absolutely no idea what she has done, she just looks at it like, "I made a mistake, Oh well".

 

This is about all I can come up with.

 

I did read test's posts and everything is eerily similar. But I have found that to be the case anyway. There are only a few roads traveled in these infidelity relationships, and it seems like all you have to do is change the names, and cities.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Downtown]

I'm aware of the conditions involved, like BPD and NPD, I just hate to throw around those terms since I'm not a therapist.

Jess, not to worry. You don't have to be a therapist to spot BPD and NPD traits because they are simply behavioral symptoms. You would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to be unable to spot strong occurrences of temper tantrums, grandiose bragging, and selfishness.

 

Indeed, the professionals you consult with will rely heavily on your ability to spot such behaviors. That's why, when you go to a medical doctor or a psychologist, the first thing he/she will ask you to describe are the symptoms you are seeing. And, to facilitate that process, hundreds of medical centers post the symptoms for various diseases on their websites. They know that, when laymen are better educated for spotting symptoms, they are far more likely to seek professional help when they need it. Similarly, hundreds of mental health centers post the symptoms for BPD, NPD, and other patterns of behavioral traits on their websites for laymen to read.

 

She by no means has every trait of a full blown narcissist, but a large mix of narcissism and insecurities. She replaced her "love" for me after our child was born.

If I understand the timeline correctly, you both have known each other for 13 years but only started dating 6 years ago. So you seem to have had a good and loving relationship for 3 years, i.e., until your D was born three years ago. Is that correct? If so, why did you not spot some narcissistic traits during the first 3 years (i.e., after the 6 months of intense infatuation ended)?

 

My girlfriend, soon to be wife in May....

Are you saying, then, that you still want to marry your GF? Are you saying that you're willing to forgive her cheating and put up with her NPD traits (which fall well short of full-blown narcissism)?

 

She used to tell me all the time that she has been in love with me since the first day she saw me. I now know, its because I used to pay attention to her back then.... She replaced her "love" for me after our child was born, with "love" for other people.

Clearly, these statements indicate that you don't believe your GF is capable of loving you. Moreover, you almost certainly know that any woman having very strong NPD traits -- as you believe to be true for your GF -- is incapable of loving anyone. Why, then, are you still telling us that she is your "soon to be wife in May"?

 

In the beginning of our relationship, our love and companionship was intense.

Your LOVE? I'm confused. Did you intend to put quotation marks around this "love" term to indicate it wasn't real love? Or are you saying here -- contrary to your other statements -- that this woman's NPD traits are only moderate and she thus was able to love you to some extent?

 

Her communication stopped completely with me after our daughter was born.

As you already know -- and as Testmeasure explains so well -- a narcissist is so out of touch with her true self that -- as long as she gets sufficient narcissistic "supply" from someone -- she is convinced that her false self image (of being nearly perfect) is her true self. (BPDers, in contrast, know that their false self image is fake.) What can change over time, however, is the narcissist's "narrative" (as Testmeasure says) of what they are "perfect at."

 

You seem to suspect, then, that your GF believed that she was "perfect at" being the girlfriend. She obtained all the validation she needed from you. With the birth of your D, however, your GF's narrative seems to have switched to her being "perfect at" being the mom. Significantly, this new narrative (perfect mom) may not require validation from you at all, given that she has an adoring toddler at her feet and was seeking validation from another man. As you know, your value as an "image-validator" remains high only as long as she respects your opinion.

[testmeasure]

Downtown already linked you to a thread that has a good explanation of some of my history.

 

I started yesterday reading through your struggles with your previous ex wife. I've gotten to the first post of the 2nd thread where she contacted the guy she cheated with during your reconciliation.

 

Here is a list of warning signs that I saw before the relationship, during the good phase (with hindsight), and when it turned bad:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/568074-dysfunctional-abusive-relationships-red-flags#post6761479

 

My situation was very extreme on both sides. During the good phase, her narrative was perfect for her at that stage of life and got a lot of validation. I didn't know these concepts, so I didn't know what I was seeing. I thought the Facebook shrine to herself and us as a couple was a little strange. But for the most part, I thought she deserved to be proud of herself given how bad her past was. So there was a ton of validation.

 

I don't think she replaced us as a perfect couple with herself as a perfect mom. I think she was trying to maintain both scenarios side by side.

 

When we met she had a narrative that she would one day quit her day job, switch to a specific prestigious career field and become world famous. Becoming a "perfect mom" was more of a replacement for that narrative.

 

Anyway, she was working from home. So, as our daughter began to sleep, less and started to become mobile, I had to help out more.

 

Before long, all day every day she was sitting there watching me pay attention to our daughter instead of her. She had to watch me take care of our daughter instead of her taking care of our daughter.

 

A Facebook shrine to herself as perfect mom and us as a perfect couple could not be built out of pictures of me paying attention to and taking care of our daughter. That's what would have happened most of the day every day. So, instead she would find every excuse to intervene. The better I got at it, the more obscure and convoluted her reasons for intervening got and the angrier and more hostile she got about it.

 

My existence in front of her every day was the opposite of me worshiping and paying attention to only her, it was watching me pay attention to someone else. At the same time, watching someone else take care of her daughter was the opposite of her getting to do the role and being the perfect mom. The anger and darkness this created was unbelievable.

 

One thing I see that seems kind of different in our stories, is I had almost a decade where the narrative worked so well, things were pinned positive in a too good to be true, nothing can go wrong state. Then when things did go wrong, both narratives were constantly invalidated all day every day. So everything got pinned constant negative to the extreme.

 

I sense that your situation had more ups and downs than that. Possibly I'm guessing that since you talked about calling her out on her narcissism. I'm going to have to figure out how to ask some questions about that. I didn't have any of these concepts when I was in the situation. I didn't discover them till well after the fact. It's very hard for me to imagine being in the situation and the narcissist themselves being aware of it. I hear the words, and I can picture it, but it seems like there would be a lot of implications that I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around.

 

Reading your story also makes me more aware of another narrative my ex probably had. My ex liked to believe she had a very high IQ and a perfect memory. She also liked to think of herself as perfectly moral. In a way those things sort of go together as something of a "perfect intellectual" narrative or something like that. She would never lie, she wouldn't have been caught dead cheating. Such things were beneath her image of herself as "morally and intellectually perfect".

 

Funny thing is, once things went bad, she distorted everything. She rewrote history on a lot of stuff, she didn't even seem to perceive things in an undistorted way as they were happening. She would describe some past thing or something that happened 5 minutes ago, and sometimes it was hard to recognize what she was talking about. But if I thought about it, I was always able to figure out what she was talking about, and it was always something that actually happened. Just described in a horribly distorted way to make me look bad and her good. So inside the distortion there was always a grain of truth. Funny thing was, this worked totally to my advantage. Once there were 3rd parties, any time I described the same event, and told how it actually happened, it sounded 10 times more believable and plausible. In the end they thought of her version as so distorted they really didn't care if there was some grain of truth in the center, they considered it a lie.

 

When things went bad, in her mind she never lied, but she was able to twist everything so far beyond recognition that the 3rd parties couldn't tell the difference between what she was saying and a lie, and they didn't care to bother trying.

 

I don't know if there could be an equivalent in committing the actual act of cheating. I think the actual romantic cheating would be like the actual direct falsehood or lie. She probably wouldn't be able to intentionally do it. She certainly shut me out. She reached out to and opened up to others who she had never been close to (female relatives). She connected with one of them well enough that the two of them worked as a team against me.

 

While cheating was probably about as "beneath" her as lying, she certainly had no trouble kicking me off the team and then teaming up with someone else against me.

 

 

.

[testmeasure]

Hello All,

 

I love this website and I appreciate in advance anyone who responds and listens. This website has always been very therapeutic to read and write on.

 

I'll make this long story as short as possible. Not really looking for advice, although all is welcome. Just wanted to type this as some therapy, and share what I have learned.

 

I posted about my current ex here 5 years ago, and damn if I wasn't right. Hahaha. Its here ------> http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/breaks-breaking-up/251375-broke-up-yesterday-i-m-sad-right-thing-do

 

Ok, I finished reading the history of this, and the 3 threads about the previous ex wife.

 

Here are my issues in relationships, confirmed by my counselor and all my close family and friends, who do not validate me. I'm angry, and I internalize that anger incorrectly. My anger did not reach a suffocating point until very late in my relationship, although my anger and negativity steadily grew after the birth of my daughter. My anger and negativity stemmed from my soon to be wife discounting me, which I perceive as disrespect, which did not allow me to show love correctly. I am not a violent angry, just a grumpy angry, which I know can be very hard to deal with.

In my case, when things turned dark and my ex devalued me, she started to threaten a range of things that would destroy us as a family. I went into save the family mode.

 

She was working from home, and so I had to take care of our daughter with her watching. She became very angry and hostile and found any excuse to intervene in the care.

 

Because she was threatening the family and I wanted to save the family, I tried to fix anything she thought was wrong. When she got angry and hostile and intervened, I would explain why I had done things the way I had and ask questions. No matter how hard I tried, she always found something wrong. At one point she even told me not to ever get the idea that I was improving. I didn't. I just kept explaining myself and asking questions, and then trying to do it how she wanted. The thing was, I was getting better and better at doing exactly what she asked for. I didn't realize this was taking place at the time, but she was having to resort to finding more and more obscure and convoluted reasons why I was doing things wrong. Eventually her reasons got so ridiculous that all at once it became apparent to me that she could find something wrong with anything I did.

 

While all that was happening, at some point, she started to characterize my explaining myself and asking questions as me arguing. Then later she started characterizing it as me yelling. Sometimes she would describe it that way as it was actually happening. In those cases, I would point out that I was not actually yelling. Her response was that I looked angry, so it was the same thing.

 

Eventually when she got upset, if I talked she said I was yelling. If I said nothing, she said I was being passive aggressive. If I went and tried to work on something and made any noise at all, she said I was banging things around out of anger.

 

Every time she was upset she had this deep dark hostile angry tone. She didn't yell or get out of control There was just this un-ending sea of darkness. The unrelenting anger and hostility felt like some gigantic unmovable object or unstoppable force. Later I saw someone describe narcissistic rage as a horrible combination of anger and disgust. My reaction was "Oh, that's what that was!"

 

One day, in this horrible hostile tone, she said "Don't act all hen pecked, you're not hen pecked." I responded back "I'm not trying to act hen pecked. I don't feel hen pecked. If anything, I feel shell shocked. I never know when I'm going to get in trouble next."

 

It turns out I was right. Being in a hostile and unpredictable environment re-wires the nervous system to be in a constant state of fear and anxiety. That's exactly what "Shell Shock" or PTSD is. It's that same reaction, as caused by the hostile and unpredictable environment created by war.

 

So, in my case, she held all the cards because she was threatening our future as a family. I tried to save the family by fixing everything. She was incredibly hostile and angry, and although I didn't realize it until toward the end, she could find something wrong with anything I did, so there was no way to tell when I was going to get in trouble and face her rage.

 

So, my reaction to the discounting was fear and anxiety.

 

In my case, I think my ex did want to continue both the "perfect mom" narrative and the "perfect couple narrative". But, like I said in the earlier post, both of those were broken. She was working from home and had to watch me take care of our daughter instead of paying attention to her. At the same time she had to watch me take care of our daughter instead of her getting to play the role of perfect mom. Finding some excuse for intervening in the care was the perfect solution. It got her attention from me while at the same time putting her back in the caregiver role.

 

As time went on, she couldn't blame herself for everything being broken and dysfunctional. She had to blame me, so it became natural for her to try to salvage the perfect mom narrative but not the perfect couple narrative.

 

What do you think caused your ex to drop the perfect couple narrative and switch to perfect mom as opposed to maintaining both? She just wanted to focus on one thing? Novelty of the perfect mom narrative made it more exciting? Or did perfect mom and perfect couple come into conflict somehow?

 

Also, when she began discounting you, what form did this take? What did it look like? What did she actually do? From there, the other question would be how did that provoke anger on your part, but you've already answered that some, and if you describe the discounting in more detail, I have a feeling it will be apparent.

 

I am mad at myself, not at my ex. I am mad at myself because I knew who she was and what that would allow her to be capable of in our relationship. Although early on, I didn't know how bad her insecurities were, I knew they were a problem, and I went on anyway. Why you ask??? I'm a selfless fixer. That's why.

 

At what point did you find out about Narcissism and come to suspect some of it might apply? I didn't discover it till well after the fact.

 

My girlfriend, soon to be wife in May, was having an emotional affair for months, that turned physical immediately after she left our vacation in Vegas early. Or so she says, but who cares now? I have been lied to, along with everyone else, so many times I can't keep the truth straight anymore.

 

She was carrying an emotional, inappropriate, relationship while she was paying cash for our wedding. That's sick. She actually brought my daughter around this guy, just once, before she even moved out of my house, that's mental.

 

I knew she was up to something, because I could just look at her and tell. I've always been able to see right through her, and it scares the **** out of her.

 

This sounds like a horrible experience. I have not experienced cheating either by myself or a partner. (That I know of, and I'm pretty sure.) Anyway, please forgive me if I overlook some of the ramifications or consequences. I know it must have deep consequences that are outside of my understanding.

 

She was constantly projecting infidelity onto me, which I knew was a sign, again I ignored it. I never ran around on her. NEVER. There was no reason for me too. I was in extreme love with her, and physically she really did it for me, and I know I was that for her as well. Sex was never one of our issues. It was intense.

 

From the beginning? Or early on? Or just past some point?

 

In my case the perfect couple narrative worked perfectly for many years. I think it was powerful because all her past relationships had failed badly and ended in abuse. She was at a stage in life where having one that worked was exactly what she needed in order to feel good about herself. Early on our friends and her coworkers all started telling us we were the perfect couple. Every thing did seem really good, so she got a lot of validation especially from me.

 

During that good time everything was almost too good to be true. For year after year. It was like nothing could go wrong.

 

I ignored these signs because in the beginning of our relationship, our love and companionship was intense. It made me feel amazing. I am the only person she has ever been vulnerable with, and for some reason I felt that was enough to pull us through anything. I know, stupid, but its the truth.

 

Yep. Same here.

 

I know every demon and skeleton she has, and her mine, and I felt that was a strong enough bond to keep us together, even through some rough rapids. Again, even though she would never admit it, I would have supported her through any therapy or breakdown she had. In fact, I would have shot myself in the head to save her life.

 

Yep. Same here. Not sure about the shooting myself in the head part. More like I would have stayed by her side and struggled till we both went down together.

 

She has always tried to create a person in her mind, that she wishes to be, but isn't. She conveys these ideas through avenues like Facebook, and social media, and in turn likes the people who validate this image. I stopped validating it when this image no longer included me after our daughter was born. I was discounted heavily after our daughter was born. She was still nice to me, but the discounting hurt me, and I expressed it to no avail. Her self image went from perfect girlfriend with the perfect relationship, to perfect mom, which didn't include me anymore. It didn't go unnoticed from alot of people we knew. It hurts me greatly.

 

I know all about this. I call it the Facebook shrine to herself and us as a couple. Which could only be topped by the Facebook shrine to herself as the perfect mom. It's an actual tangible thing you can look at and see the solipsistic world they use to feel good about themselves. (Solipsism - a pathological egocentrism where reality is defined by an individual's mental perceptions and constructs.)

 

I'm very curious to hear in detail why "perfect couple" got removed. If my ex could find multiple things she could use to feel good about herself, she did. Besides "perfect couple" and "perfect mom", she had this image of herself "intellectually and morally perfect". She probably had some kind of narrative about being glamorous. She had the narrative that she would one day quit her day job, change to a particular career in a prestigious field and become world famous. She actually decided to have a child instead of doing that. So, in that case "perfect mom" conflicted with and replaced that one.

 

Also, I'm curious what the discounting actually looked like. Did all of her time and attention just get focused on your daughter? How would that make you angry. It seems like she must have done specific things to talk bad about you or put you down. I suppose having a secret relationship and an affair sort of does all that but without saying it or posting it to Facebook.

 

This all happened 3 weeks ago, so its still pretty fresh. But I am doing okay. I understand why she did what she did, because I understand her. Her insecurities and narcissism were very hard for me to deal with and it turned me into a curmudgeon, and a negative nancy, which yes I understand I am in control of that, and can do better with my reactions, but changing the dynamic of a relationship with no reciprocation becomes tiring. I grew tired.

If she's a narcissist, and she's dropped the perfect couple narrative, then there really isn't a relationship anymore. If she's a narcissist, that's the very mechanism by which you were able to make each other happy. If that's gone, it's just gone.

 

I guess the answer to this one will depend a lot on what made her drop the perfect couple narrative and discount you. If it was because that narrative came into conflict with perfect mom or something else, there may just be no hope.

 

If she dropped perfect couple because she wants to put all her energy into one thing at a time, or because the perfect mom narrative has more novelty which creates more excitement, I don't know what the chances are of fixing it, but I suppose it's less impossible than if the two narratives are in direct conflict somehow.

 

With all of this being said, I love her immensely, and I have a deep care for her, and hope she one day has the wake up call she needs to be an acceptable partner to someone. I was hoping this could have been it, yet that remains to be seen, the way she has acted during and since this makes me think it isn't coming any time soon.

 

I may have a more blunt view of this because I've seen what you've seen work as well as it possibly can and then break as badly as it possibly can.

 

The thing is, those narratives and that Facebook shrine mean everything to them. That's what the care about.

 

It's hard to go back and realize it. But when I go back and think about how things felt, the love we always had did have a vibe to it of being on a pedestal. Not like me putting her on a pedestal, but like us being on the pedestal together. Her love felt so grand a part of it felt like being on a pedestal with her.

 

All of her other positive emotions always felt like there was an element of pride to them. I dismissed it because her life had been so bad up to that point, it seemed to me she did have a lot to be proud of. So I probably encouraged and validated that too.

 

That's how I experienced it. Now that I know what I know about narcissism, it seems surreal to go back and wonder if she actually felt any of the things I thought she did.

 

Maybe all she felt was pride in herself and pride in us as a perfect couple. Maybe I projected my love and my sense of what love is onto her feeling of pride in us as a perfect couple, and the pedestal like quality it had was what she was truly feeling peeking back at me through my projection. Maybe I projected the normal range of emotions I was experiencing onto her pride in herself, and that's why all her positive emotions always seemed to have pride as an element.

 

At this point, even if I could go back and re-experience the good moments, I'm not sure there would be an external way for me to tell the difference.

 

Since it's in the past, I decided it didn't matter. Either way, we made each other happy. If I had to live with it now and realize that she probably wasn't experiencing love, I'm not sure I could.

 

So, if she's a narcissist, there is no wake up call. She's severely emotionally damaged at the core. She's actually lucky if she can find a simple narrative that she can use to feel good about herself and someone to validate it for her. It allows her to live with herself and make it through the day.

 

At the end of the day, that narrative and it's validation is all she will ever care about. It's all she can ever care about. You only get to see how lucky she is to have even that if some day the narrative gets completely invalidated. Only then do you get to see the darkness, anger, hostility and pain that exist without the narrative to make her feel good.

 

From what I understand, there is no test for narcissism, it's hard to diagnose, the people with it will never seek treatment, and even if they did, it's impossible to cure.

 

She has moved out her stuff, and lives in a small house, not to far from me. Our daughter(3) is a wonderful child, and she is a great mom, and I a great dad, so that should be fine.

If narcissism is involved here, the ability to flip, paint you totally black and rage against you is there.

 

If you're divorcing and suddenly you're working on a parenting plan that she starts to feel is going to come between her and being a perfect mom, you might get to see some of that dark anger and hostility.

 

Last time it sounded like you did a great job of documenting the time spent with your son in 2007. There was mention of a journal and you even were able to figure that you had your son 79% of the time in 2007.

 

Don't let your guard down this time. Document everything you can to show your relationship with your daughter. Just in case.

[jesslindy]

Wow, all great stuff. Thanks. I'm covered up but will get to this over the weekend. Alot to think about.

[LBear]

I am sorry for this hard time you are going through.Thank you for sharing your heart. I hope that you are feeling better from being able to write it out and process your thoughts and feelings. I like to journal and that is a helpful discipline to be able to see clearly what I am thinking and feeling. Often in my case I find it to be helpful to read through and see if I really do mean what i am saying or its my feelings taking over my rational.

 

Relationships are a mess but a mess worth making! Hope that you will find the way forward for you, your daughter and your relationships.

[Downtown]

Wow, all great stuff.

Jess, like I said earlier, Test has had many years of experience living with a woman having strong NPD traits.

[jesslindy]

If I understand the timeline correctly, you both have known each other for 13 years but only started dating 6 years ago. So you seem to have had a good and loving relationship for 3 years, i.e., until your D was born three years ago. Is that correct? If so, why did you not spot some narcissistic traits during the first 3 years (i.e., after the 6 months of intense infatuation ended)?

 

Yes that is the timeline. We fooled around a few times between girlfriends and boyfriends. Yes, our relationship became much more straining after our daughter was born. I didn't see the facebook validation as narcissism at the time, just immaturity and insecurity.

 

Are you saying, then, that you still want to marry your GF? Are you saying that you're willing to forgive her cheating and put up with her NPD traits (which fall well short of full-blown narcissism)?

 

No, I do not want to marry her. Forgiveness is something I can do, but not without her walking the road. If she wants me back, and I believe she does, she will listen to what I have said in the past and win me back. I will not give her the roadmap to fixing this for me or how to fix herself. If she just says "sorry", and tries to get me in the sack, I will not do it, and will have a conversation with her that will either get her to fix it, or run away. It's her choice, it always has been. And yes, the more that I read, she is not a full blown narcissist like TestMeasures situation. She is definitely BPD, with a fair amount of narcissistic traits. All the ones I listed above are accurate.

 

Clearly, these statements indicate that you don't believe your GF is capable of loving you. Moreover, you almost certainly know that any woman having very strong NPD traits -- as you believe to be true for your GF -- is incapable of loving anyone. Why, then, are you still telling us that she is your "soon to be wife in May"?

 

Well this is tricky for me. The way I am feeling right now I don't see how you can love someone with empathy for their feelings, and run around on them. I just don't. I was just saying the soon to be wife thing so I could convey the sickness of cheating on someone when its this close to the wedding. That's all. To answer if she is capable of Love, I do believe she is and does love me very much. When I broke her down the night of the confession, she threw up in front of me. She cared that I was hurting, somewhat. During the week of chaos that ensued, the lying, the blameshifting, all happened outside of me. What I mean by that is, the conversations we had during that week, she always ending up admitting, to me and only me, that I was right, that I had a right to be angry. She quit her gym, which is where she met the OM, she said she hasn't talked to him since then, and what I can tell you for sure is that he hasn't been to her house. She is always making a point to text me during the day and let me know what she is doing. Her brother lives one street down, he told me he hasn't seen a thing and has been over there almost every night. I know why she does it, and I don't respond with feeling, but she is trying to relieve her guilt. If she was full blown NPD, she wouldn't care if I was dead in a ditch.

 

Your LOVE? I'm confused. Did you intend to put quotation marks around this "love" term to indicate it wasn't real love? Or are you saying here -- contrary to your other statements -- that this woman's NPD traits are only moderate and she thus was able to love you to some extent?

 

She does love me, but her BPD and insecurities make it very hard for her to show that when she has real or perceived hurt. Problem is, a lot of that hurt was perceived. Secondly, the love(respect) she showed me became very low hanging fruit kind of stuff after our daughter was born. Once she hijacks her brain, and starts to demonize me, even when undeserved, it became very hard for her to care about my feelings. My negativity and anger started to become more apparent, as the discounting became heavier and heavier. I verbalized my issues with this hurt, enough believe me, but it never got better.

 

As you already know -- and as Testmeasure explains so well -- a narcissist is so out of touch with her true self that -- as long as she gets sufficient narcissistic "supply" from someone -- she is convinced that her false self image (of being nearly perfect) is her true self. (BPDers, in contrast, know that their false self image is fake.)

 

This is what woke me up to the major difference between NPD and BPD. She knows she is fake, hence the explanation above, where she lies to everyone else, but admits it to me. Its maddening.

[jesslindy]

Thanks Test, I really appreciate the time and kind words. You were definitely dealing with a full blown narcissist, as you know. Full-Blown NPD. My situation differs as I am dealing with Borderline Personality Disorder with the narcissistic traits I listed above. I feel your words, and they lay heavy on me. I am truly sorry for your story, it is my firm belief we get one shot at this life, and when a person can treat you this way, and steals a part of this one-shot life, its very hard to deal with. In fact, that's what I am the most angry about. The fact I cant keep a family together, because of someone else insecurities, shortsightedness, and unwillingness to grow together. Especially in my case wen it can be fixed. Sad to say, your situation couldn't be, based on your ex wife's traits. Full blown NPD makes it impossible in my opinion, and I'm sure yours as well.

 

 

I sense that your situation had more ups and downs than that. Possibly I'm guessing that since you talked about calling her out on her narcissism. I'm going to have to figure out how to ask some questions about that. I didn't have any of these concepts when I was in the situation. I didn't discover them till well after the fact. It's very hard for me to imagine being in the situation and the narcissist themselves being aware of it. I hear the words, and I can picture it, but it seems like there would be a lot of implications that I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around.

 

It did have more ups and downs. I didn't really know about narcissism, I just identified it as immaturity, or insecurity. As far as her being aware of it, she is, and was. She just can't muster the courage to realize I and everyone else loves her anyway, it all about her saving face at this point, which she really cant do because everyone knows about the lies, and bull****. The only way to gain respect back from the people she has lied to, is to face it.

 

Funny thing is, once things went bad, she distorted everything. She rewrote history on a lot of stuff, she didn't even seem to perceive things in an undistorted way as they were happening. She would describe some past thing or something that happened 5 minutes ago, and sometimes it was hard to recognize what she was talking about. But if I thought about it, I was always able to figure out what she was talking about, and it was always something that actually happened. Just described in a horribly distorted way to make me look bad and her good. So inside the distortion there was always a grain of truth. Funny thing was, this worked totally to my advantage. Once there were 3rd parties, any time I described the same event, and told how it actually happened, it sounded 10 times more believable and plausible. In the end they thought of her version as so distorted they really didn't care if there was some grain of truth in the center, they considered it a lie.

 

When things went bad, in her mind she never lied, but she was able to twist everything so far beyond recognition that the 3rd parties couldn't tell the difference between what she was saying and a lie, and they didn't care to bother trying.

 

This almost to a T. She has repeatedly said "I wasn't lying", when she knows she was. It's maddening. Of course, using the Homer method of creating the reality for the wayward, I blew up the affair to everyone, and they all believed me. Doesn't matter now, because they are her family and friends, and they will support her no matter what, I was just pointing it out. She repeatedly twisted words almost within a minute of me saying something. When we were in Vegas, right before she left me there, I said "This whole situation is just Garbage". Exactly like that, and less than a minute later, she said "Now your calling me names, you just called me garbage." This happened a hundred times in the last year of our relationship.

 

What do you think caused your ex to drop the perfect couple narrative and switch to perfect mom as opposed to maintaining both? She just wanted to focus on one thing? Novelty of the perfect mom narrative made it more exciting? Or did perfect mom and perfect couple come into conflict somehow?

 

I'm really not sure about this. What I do know is everything on Facebook went from us, to our daughter. After our D was born, she stopped letting me rub her feet and back, was never a problem when she was pregnant or before. She literally stopped letting me love her. So I did what I do and stopped trying altogether at some point.

 

Also, when she began discounting you, what form did this take? What did it look like? What did she actually do? From there, the other question would be how did that provoke anger on your part, but you've already answered that some, and if you describe the discounting in more detail, I have a feeling it will be apparent.

 

She discounted me a lot, and it was almost our entire relationship. For example, she would gush about me or us on Facebook, early on, then take credit for something I said or did like she had said or did it. She was always carrying on some sort of semi inappropriate texting with a guy "friend". She did stop this at one point, after we talked about it at length a few times. But it was always back shortly after. If she was mad at me, she would demonize me to her friends, by distorting the truth in the way of leaving out what she had done to cause the hurt, or anger. I was always the dick, no matter what she had done. Obviously, after repeated attempts to bring all of this to the surface, with no real reciprocation, I grew hurt, which spawned a poison of negativity and anger. When she would actually work on things, my anger subsided, what a magic trick!!!! When she stopped giving a ****, I internalized my anger, and took care of my bruised ego by shutting down. You can only say something over and over before your done.

 

At what point did you find out about Narcissism and come to suspect some of it might apply? I didn't discover it till well after the fact.

 

Honestly, neither did I. I didn't know about narcissism until about 2 months ago. Again, I always identified it as immaturity, or insecurity.

 

This sounds like a horrible experience. I have not experienced cheating either by myself or a partner. (That I know of, and I'm pretty sure.) Anyway, please forgive me if I overlook some of the ramifications or consequences. I know it must have deep consequences that are outside of my understanding.

 

The ramifications are that it's the ultimate disrespect. Plain as I can say it. I always thought of my EX as my property sexually. In fact, she liked that a lot. It turned her on. That she was mine. When they get physical with someone else, that's all lost. It has been stolen from you.

 

From the beginning? Or early on? Or just past some point?

 

This is to answer when she projected infidelity onto me. Almost our entire relationship. To be fair, one of my relationship insecurities was her cheating on me. I never projected infidelity onto her, but I was uncomfortable that she would keep people around, when it was clear they liked her. It's just inappropriate. Especially, when your partner, who you have supposedly loved for 13 years, has insecurities about it.

 

I know all about this. I call it the Facebook shrine to herself and us as a couple. Which could only be topped by the Facebook shrine to herself as the perfect mom. It's an actual tangible thing you can look at and see the solipsistic world they use to feel good about themselves. (Solipsism - a pathological egocentrism where reality is defined by an individual's mental perceptions and constructs.)

 

Thanks, I love new words. HaHa. A lot of people noticed I all but disappeared from Facebook after our D was born. I expressed it, didn't matter. This entire paragraph hits my nail right on the head.

 

If narcissism is involved here, the ability to flip, paint you totally black and rage against you is there.

 

If you're divorcing and suddenly you're working on a parenting plan that she starts to feel is going to come between her and being a perfect mom, you might get to see some of that dark anger and hostility.

 

Last time it sounded like you did a great job of documenting the time spent with your son in 2007. There was mention of a journal and you even were able to figure that you had your son 79% of the time in 2007.

 

Don't let your guard down this time. Document everything you can to show your relationship with your daughter. Just in case.

 

This is not going to be a problem. Whatever she is, she is not vindictive, or malicious. She loves our daughter very much, as do I. She never abandoned us like my 1st ex did. I am not dealing with a full blown narcissist here. I can honestly say this isn't going to be a issue. I understand what you are saying though.

 

What I am dealing with here, is a totally fixable situation, I just have someone who can't see that. It's that simple. When you are dealing with someone who knows they aren't happy, but can't do anything about it, you're done. When you're dealing with someone who knows they are lying, but does it anyway, you're done. When you're dealing with someone who can't be honest with themselves, you're done.

 

She knows I am right, she even admits it to me, but runs away anyway. It's that simple. It would help if someone else would tell her these things, because I am the author of her "book of wrongs", but that's not going to happen.

 

For an update, she has been lying to me and reaching out to me for the past couple of days. Telling me she quit the gym, that she doesn't talk to the OM anymore, that she was going out with her work friends last night, and guess what, he was at her house. Because I love her immensely, and I miss her greatly, It gave me a sliver of hope. I was pretty sure she was lying, so I looked into it. What a sting in the heart. She is going to call me one more time today, and then I'm going back to NC. I have to get busy livin, and that's exactly what I am going to do.

 

My best revenge will be to get ripped, be wildly successful, get happy, and find a stacked WOMAN with an ass like a peach, that tastes like French Vanilla Ice Cream. HaHa. I DO NOT want to do that, I want my Family back, but that's not my choice now, in fact it never was. I will use my pain to grow and to push the love I have for her into the black spot of my heart.

It is my hope she doesn't do these things and becomes wildly jealous of the Great Man I have become, because its happening hell or highwater. Again, I DO NOT want that, I want my family back, fixed. When two people come together, at a juncture like this, and put in the work, they become unstoppable, and happy. That's all she wants, I just wish she would realize that Everyone loves and supports her anyway, and the right thing to do is usually the hardest.

 

One of my mottos is: If your honest with yourself, and honest with everyone else, things just usually fall into place.

 

Introspection is hard for a large percentage of the population, IMO. I need to find someone who can do it, I can't go through this again, and I won't.

 

We all have our one person who got away, she is mine, and I am hers. ****ing Sad. Just ****ing sad.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Downtown]

I am dealing with Borderline Personality Disorder with the narcissistic traits I listed above.

Likewise, my exW is predominantly a BPDer. Jess, if you're interested in reading any more about BPDer behavior, you might want to take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs -- and my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. That discussion describes the behaviors I saw for 15 years during my marriage.

[testmeasure]

Borderline vs. Narcissist. These are both cluster B personality disorders. Here on a message board, we're sort of talking about tendencies and comparing behavior to the official formal concepts to reach a personal understanding of the people we knew.

 

My opinion is that both Borderline and Narcissism stem from the same emotional damage caused by early childhood trauma and abuse.

 

Here is what happens: One or both parents is acting in a traumatizing or abusive manner. Biologically we are wired to bond with our parents no matter what. Historically, if a child didn't bond with it's parents, it got eaten by predators. So a kid will do anything to bond with the parents. If a parent is being abusive, the child will suppress their fight/flight aversion mechanism to bond with the parent. This results in the brain being wired so that when the attachment bonding portion of the brain is active, the fight/flight aversion mechanism is shut down. When the fight/flight aversion mechanism is active, the attachment bonding mechanism is shut down.

 

The end result is black and white thinking. If they see something as good, they can't see anything bad about it. If they see something as bad, they can't see anything good about it. There is nothing like mixed feelings, nuance or a grey area. The end effect of this can be thought of as the person's emotional development got frozen at about age 4 or so. As a result, the person looks like an adult but is the emotional equivalent of a toddler.

 

This kind of emotional damage provides a way of thinking about both narcissism and borderline.

 

The borderline experiences the strong pure intense, uncontrollable shifting emotions of a 4 year old, and just goes with them. However they feel in the moment is so real to them that their feeling becomes the reality and drives their behavior. They could have a temper tantrum one minute and be happy the next. A lot of their behavior might be contradictory, confusing, and hard to understand. That is, until you think of them as emotionally equivalent to a toddler.

 

A narcissist develops what resembles a coping mechanism to deal with the toddler like emotions. They develop a narrative that they can use to feel good about themselves. They then seek validation to keep them feeling good. The thing is, everything we're describing exists on a continuum. How well does the narrative work? That depends:

 

(1) How true is the narrative? If they pick something true about themselves to use to feel good about themselves, it's easier to believe and easier to get validation. If they pick something obviously false, it's harder to believe and harder to get validated.

 

(2) How effective is the narrative at making them feel good about themselves? For example, all my ex's previous relationships had failed and ended in abuse. She was approaching middle age. For her to have a relationship that not only worked, but was perfect, at that point in her life had extremely powerful potential to make her feel good about herself.

 

(3) How much validation do they get? We have to remember, this is an emotional toddler. They don't know how to convince themselves that the bed time story is true. They need someone else to read it to them and validate it. Only if that is done often enough do they feel secure, safe, and good about themselves.

 

All 3 of these factors can be met to any different level or degree. The result is a whole range of different behavior from the narcissist.

 

Like I said, I got to see the extremes. My narcissist probably had a number of narratives that worked very well. She was "perfect at her current career field", which was very true, everyone at work looked up to her, she knew more about everything than anyone, and had more responsibilities than anyone else. This supported her view of herself as "intellectually and morally perfect, with a very high IQ". That, in turn, supported her view of herself that "some day she would quit her day job and change careers to a prestigious field and become world famous". All of that fit together and was consistent with her actual level of achievement and apparent intelligence. It was all believable and her friends, coworkers, and I gave her a lot of validation for how good she was at what she did and how smart she was. Throw on top of that for the first time in her life having a relationship that worked, right as she approached middle age, with all of our friends and her coworkers telling her that we were the perfect couple and a ton of validation from me as well. On top of all that, she probably thought of herself as glamorous. She loved to have her picture taken, and I loved photography. Fuel for the Facebook shrine.

 

In your case, it sounds like there was a narrative and a Facebook shrine. Something about it just didn't work as well. If she projected worries about infidelity on you, that's not consistent with believing and maintaining an image of a perfect couple. In my case, all of our friends and her coworkers told her we were the perfect couple, and that if anyone should have kids, we should, that kind of thing. If your ex went and complained to her friends and talked down about you to them, that wouldn't be consistent with the perfect couple narrative and wouldn't result in the friends validating that narrative.

 

Somehow, your ex's implementation of the narrative was less successful. So it just didn't work as well. It sputtered. In any case where her narrative and it's Facebook shrine didn't work well enough to keep her feeling good about herself, she lost control of her toddler emotions.

 

To the extent that the narrative works, you see a narcissist. When it fails to keep them feeling sufficiently good about themselves, you see a borderline.

 

I saw a narcissist for almost a decade. Then I saw a year long temper tantrum that matches exactly how someone who lived with a borderline describes a borderline on a bad day, except mine was a borderline on a bad day for a year. I saw the extreme of the narrative totally working and totally breaking. From what I've seen that's not the typical experience of people who live with narcissists.

 

From what, I've seen on youtube and on message boards, most narcissists struggle with their narrative or getting enough validation from time to time. If your ex's narrative failed to be sufficient to keep her feeling good about herself off and on, you would have seen her range into and out of borderline behavior on a varying degree and frequency depending on how well her narrative was or wasn't working.

 

It's hard to know, I can throw out a guess. Maybe your ex had some narrative about her attractiveness that required attention from multiple sources to validate. "A lot of people find me attractive." "Most people find me attractive." "Multiple people find me attractive." All of those require more than just your attention and appreciation to validate. So, if she needed to believe something like that about herself, in order to feel good about herself, that might help explain things. Also, something like that would contradict the "perfect couple" narrative. The very contradiction between "perfect couple" and "multiple people find me attractive" would make both narratives less effective.

 

It's hard for me to know for sure what might have decreased the effectiveness of the perfect couple narrative. But, if it was giving mixed results, that could also explain why she might drop it and shift toward a perfect mom narrative. Maybe at least on a trial basis.

 

I hadn't ever thought of this as a possibility before, but I suppose exactly the way you described it is possible as well. Maybe for the most part your ex is borderline and just goes with the toddler emotions. But she just dabbles in making these narratives to sometimes keep her feeling good about herself more than she other wise would.

 

It is probably hard to differentiate between:

 

(A) She is more narcissistic, but her narratives are only partially effective, which results in borderline behavior.

 

(B) She is more borderline and that results in any narcissistic narratives she has being less effective.

 

It seems to me that (A) and (B) could result in exactly the same mixed display of narcissistic and borderline behavior. Under (A), the less the narrative works, the more borderline the behavior is. Under (B), the more predominately borderline the person is, the less the narrative works and the more borderline the behavior is. You could see any range of combinations of narcissistic or borderline behavior with either of those scenarios.

 

In comparing our own experiences and understanding, Downtown and I have discussed in private messaging, how the DSM might actually describe my case. We think that according to the DSM my ex was a narcissist for almost a decade. Then she was a borderline for a year. The DSM, officially defines NPD and BPD in terms of behavior. So technically, if you're seeing borderline behavior, you're seeing a borderline. So, when my ex went into a year long temper tantrum, technically she went from being a narcissist to being a borderline. In practical terms, to facilitate personal understanding, its more useful to me and casts more light on what I actually saw and experienced to think of it as a narcissist who's narrative is broken and exhibits borderline behavior as a result.

 

So, technically the DSM wouldn't differentiate between (A) and (B). She was a narcissist during the time she spent being stable and feeling good about herself as a result of her narrative. She was a borderline any time she became unstable and exhibited borderline behavior. If she spent most of her time doing one or the other then, that's what she predominately was.

 

On an internet forum it is useful to remind ourselves that we are just using these concepts as tools for personal understanding. I think you have done a good job of making it clear that's exactly how you're approaching it. So, whether you look at your ex as predominately narcissistic, or borderline or whether you change you mind as you read and discover more, is less important than whether what you learn helps you better understand what you experienced.

 

.

Edited February 14, 2016 by testmeasure

[jesslindy]

Thanks Guys,

 

All good stuff here. It has helped me and I hope it helps someone else.

 

It's very unsettling to realize a person you thought you knew, isn't that person at all. That someone who loved you so intensely, can demonize, lie, and smear your name after committing the ultimate disrespect. Again, it's okay because no one believes it. Even if they tell her to her face they believe her, it's only because they know exactly what will happen if they don't. HaHa

 

I am so angry about what my life has become, because of the weakness of other people.

 

I will be just fine. I'm just really pissed right now.

 

Another thing I wanted to mention is how it seems that everyone downgrades when they cheat. Why is that? This guy is a 26 yr old dude who works at a gym and lives with his parents. I mean what the ****?? I start a national company, and she likes a 26 yr old boy who lives with his parents. EVERYTHING in this girls life gets downgraded in one fail swoop. House, Car, Goods, Money, Boyfriend, EVERYTHING. I just don't get this part of it. So she thinks he picked her special huh?? She's the only girl in the entire gym this guy picks. That cracks me up. I mean really cracks me up. Man I can't wait, I just can't wait. What a ****ing joke.

 

Thanks for listening.

[jesslindy]

Downtown,

 

I hijacked this from a thread you posted on.

 

"If I were you, however, I would focus on fixing your own issue. Any man who has been tolerating abuse from a BPDer for four years most likely has strong aspects of codependency in his personality, as I do. This means that you are an excessive caregiver. That is, your desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are. This is why you were determined to help your exGF even at great harm to yourself. And this is why you are at risk of running right into the arms of another woman just like the one you left.

 

Guys like us walk right past all the emotionally available women (boring!) until we find an unstable woman who desperately needs us. We do this because we have difficulty feeling like we are being loved if the woman does not desperately need us. Hence, we want to ride in, like the white knight, to rescue the damsel in distress.

 

This goal is a disaster, however, when we encounter BPDers, to whom we naturally gravitate. The problem is that they don't really want to be saved. Instead, they want to create a continual supply of drama to support their false self-image that they are "victims.""

 

Thanks, If I knew you in person, I would be picking up the ton of bricks you just hit me in the face with.

 

I already knew this about myself, but it was good to read it today. Especially right before my counseling appointment.

 

Thanks.

[Downtown]

Thanks, If I knew you in person, I would be picking up the ton of bricks you just hit me in the face with.

Jess, you're welcome. I'm glad to hear you found the information helpful. Please let us know how your visit with the counselor goes.

[jesslindy]

I'm extremely angry today. I feel destructive. I want to beat something.

 

It stems from the fact that I just want a mother ****ing family.

 

I just want my ****ing family.

 

It's the kind of pain where death would feel better. (Not suicidal no worries)

 

**** this hurts. This is exruciating.

[Downtown]

Jess, Lord knows you have much to be angry about. Thank goodness you're "not a violent angry, just a grumpy angry" type of guy. My advice is to hold onto that righteous anger so that, if you decide to divorce her, you can use that anger -- like a crutch -- to help you walk away. Then, a year or so later after you are safely away, you can kick that crutch aside.

 

For excessive caregivers like us, the thought of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema to our way of thinking, even when that is exactly what we should do. Anger becomes a very protective emotion for us to be in touch with. Without it, White Knights like us probably would never be able to walk away.

[jesslindy]

Thank you. You are always helpful.

 

I know the ups and downs are no where near gone. I get it.

 

I don't miss her. I miss my family.

 

The last year and a half of our relationship she was listless, slobby, selfish, and just rude and cold. I don't miss any of that.

 

I do miss her face, her body, her smell, her touch, and my daughter most of all.

 

My desire for family, trumps all. I just want to have my family, the way it was suppossed to be.

 

I haven't had a headache since she left. I had them 4 days a week for 2 years. True story.

 

My coworkers see a change in me, I'm much less hyper, much less obstinent, much less negative.

 

My brain is stronger than my heart. This is just a really bad day. Just a REALLY bad day.

 

Thank you so much.

[Downtown]

Jess, my experience is that when recovering from emotional pain -- as when recovering from a physical pain -- the recovery is not linear. On the contrary, it is far from linear. You therefore will not feel a little bit better every day. Instead, you likely will feel like you're improving for a week or two and then, one morning, you'll wake up feeling like you're all the way back to step 1 again.

 

These "really bad days" -- as you're experiencing today -- don't suddenly disappear. Instead, they get farther and farther apart until, eventually down the road, you will stop experiencing them. I mention this only so you realize that, despite your intense pain today, you have NOT regressed and have NOT lost your progress. Returning to "step 1" for a day or two -- over and over again -- is a natural part of the healing process.

[jesslindy]

So I'm a month in.

 

This is actually my third family I have lost.

 

I dated a girl from 20-25 and she had a child, we bought a home together, starting a life. She blew the entire state I live in.

 

I was with my first wife for a few years, had a child, we were married for 14 months, she blew less dudes, but blew alot none the less. I didn't deserve it but I wasn't the best husband. I spent alot of time after that marraige looking inward, and fixed alot of the attentiveness issues I had, and the anger and negativity issues I had.

 

When I met my current ex, I was extremely well adjusted, happy, confident. Still had some communication issues, but only after I repeated myself a hundred times. I'm the type of person that doesn't do well with repeating myself. And if you can't reciprocate with even a try at changing, I get hurt, and do shut down from time to time. Of course when youre with a selfish person that doesn't give a **** about your feelings, you never get that reciprocation. Then you get pushed away, and subsequently blamed for not being there. I truly felt crazy at the end. The constant lies, the constant blameshifting, the twisting of your words, and then to top it all off, ZERO empathy from the other person twists the knife in the wound.

After this relationship, not only have I looked inward, but this time have taken the time to figure out why I choose these women. So going forward, I feel like I can't make this mistake again.

 

This isn't a pity party, there is a point.

 

Every bad relationship you have in life, if you do your part correctly in the aftermath, you will emerge on top. You want to win, better yourself. You want to "one up" your ex, better yourself. You want revenge, become the best person you can possibly be. Because a wayward isn't going to do these things, and ultimately they will lose. In life, in relationships, in careers, in all of it.

Not only will you win in the "revenge" department, but you will take another step to being the best person you can be.

 

A person with BPD thinks, "I don't have to change", "There is someone out there that will love me for who I am." Now, they may find an extremely selfless person, who will go down with the ship, but the ship will go down. Point being, they can't get better. The odds are stacked against it. So what are you pining over? An impossible situation, and if you want a constant push pull relationship for the rest of your life, take them back. You have to remind yourself everyday that, it was over before it started, it really was.

 

A person who cannot communicate, unless they are telling you or someone else how they are being mistreated.

 

A person so selfish, that you literally become a piece of trash at some point.

 

A person who lies constantly, and knows they are doing it, and does it anyway, and denies it.

 

A person who literally creates a version of themselves in their head that they are not, and then finds validation for this fake person from anyone but you.

 

A person who will threaten to leave you every time their toddler insides perceive hurt.

 

A person who will smear your name to anyone who will listen.

 

A person who will actually vilify you for becoming educated on any subject, because they choose to just exist.

 

A person who who will suck and **** other people because their little child inside is scared and trying to run away from life.

 

A person who will discard you whenever they see fit, with no empathy.

 

And the list goes on and on, I can type on this subject all night.

 

So I ask, if you're reading this thread, and you find yourself pining over a woman or man like this, why on earth are you doing so?

 

Doesn't it seem like an effort in futility after telling yourself the truth?

 

It isn't the truth that hurts, it's letting go of the lie.

 

Get busy livin. Your brain is smart, your heart is stupid.

 

Be like Spock and see the reality of the situation you are up against.

[Downtown]

So going forward, I feel like I can't make this mistake again. This isn't a pity party, there is a point. Every bad relationship you have in life, if you do your part correctly in the aftermath, you will emerge on top.

Nicely stated, Jess. You're coming out on top -- finally -- because you now realize you cannot expect fireworks, adulation, and instant passion within a few weeks of dating any emotionally available woman. With the healthy ones, you have to have the patience to let the relationship develop and mature -- and have the wisdom to accept her for what she already is. It took me 15 years to learn that, in order to have a happy wife, it is necessary to marry a woman who is already happy.

[jesslindy]

I need to set boundaries.

 

This girl will not stop finding reasons to text or call me. I typically don't answer, and when I do it's short, and to the point.

 

I'll give some examples.

 

I get a text this morning asking me if my son did his baseball tryouts yet. The tryouts are next weekend, and she knows this. I haven't answered it yet and probably won't for quite a few hours, and I will say, "They are next weekend".

 

Here is my problem, I can't be mean to this girl. Not because I don't want to be, but because I don't feel like dealing with the **** that it will bring, and the toddler emotions I will have to deal with. Even if I was to say:

"Listen, I am in no way shape or form trying to be mean, but I don't understand why you feel the need to text and call about things that aren't our shared problems anymore."

She would say, "Ok, sounds good", then 2 days later start again.

 

So I have noticed a pattern here. It's quite amusing.

 

She is making sure I notice things that she feels she had "corrected", that she did wrong in our relationship.

 

She wasn't mean to my son, but she didn't have a real relationship with him, and everything she did for him was extremely low hanging fruit.

Hence her asking about my sons basketball games and his baseball tryouts.

 

She always felt "less intelligent" than me during our relationship. She texts me the other night and says she took an IQ test and got slightly above the national average. I didn't answer.

 

She was a horrible slob for the last 2 years of our relationship, and it drove me nuts. I packed up whatever was left of her belongings Sunday and took them over to her house Monday night. She offered me a water and I accepted. I played with my daughter for a few and when I was leaving, she asked me to pick up my water bottle before I even had a chance to grab it. When we lived together, she would have left it there, stuck to some candy she gave our daughter, and in a pile of **** she wouldn't have put away for 3 days.

 

These are just a few examples of this behavior. What is causing this over compensation of the issues we had in our relationship?

 

I am not contacting her for any reason. I don't need help with our daughter, I don't need help with my life, I don't need anything from her. I am not finding ways to make sure she knows I finished a book on anger, or that I figured out some **** through counseling.

 

I am not shallow enough to be her friend. I do not want to be her friend. I do not need to be friends with her to co-parent.

 

I do however, need her to not paint me black, which will probably happen anyway, but if I can do something to not make that happen, it will make my life way easier in the long run.

 

I am not looking forward to the prospect of having to deal with this push-pull behavior for the next 15 years. Will it get better?? Will I have to appease the situation to remain on an even keel??

 

I am using my anger and pain from this situation to disconnect. I think I am doing a pretty good job of it. I feel like I can rise above the daily text or phone call, in fact, they kind of help me disconnect because I see it for what it is. And they make me laugh a little bit. Is that weird?

 

I don't even talk about her in therapy anymore, I am full on figuring out ways to deal with how I perceive love, and my co-dependency on having a family, and someone to prop up, and fix. I have to be complete, and I will get there.

 

It is a painful feeling to figure out, at 37, with two children, with two GIRLS, that I have never been loved, or been in love.

[Mr. Disposable]

I hate to point to the obvious, but have you tried sitting her down on neutral ground and explicitly telling her all of these things?

 

I understand that perhaps this should be obvious to her given your reaction to her incessant texting, but being direct in an honest, open, and respectful way can go a long ways.

 

Tell her exactly what you just wrote here for us. Minus the bit about appeasement and the next 15 years, I think that you've laid out some very straightforward feelings about what you want and don't want and communicating them puts that on the record.

 

After that, it's just a matter of boundary setting. This is what I'm willing to communicate about. This is what I'm not willing to communicate about. Please, do not blame this on anything else. It is not being done out of anger, but instead so that I can be at peace in my own life. If you do not respect these things, please understand that I will not respond to you. No manner of persistence or pressure is going to change that.