jj003 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Originally posted by newbby this is very true its how things should be, and believe it or not, also something i strive towards. i just think that everybody at some point or other or many times in small ways or just somehow makes themselves feel better at someone elses expense. be it a comment they make to make someone feel small, or a fancy car they drive that pollutes the environment but makes them feel good, or wearing logos even though they know that some people in another country are working their fingers to the bone for next to nothing for that logo or being too busy to talk to someone who really needs support, or eating a poor cow that died just for a good taste in their mouth...there is so much selfishness in the world, i'm not saying that makes it right, but i'm amazed that people walk around thinking they do nothing selfish to make them feel good. I can take a break, I don't need to write, I just need to agree with you, newbby this is what i always think, before we point fingures at another person, look at ourselveds first, are we so perfect? Link to post Share on other sites
jj003 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Originally posted by whichwayisup That is so true. It's like anything bad in life, we all want to blame somebody or something - That whole WHY WHY WHY??? I know when my father died nearly 12 years ago I had SO much anger in me, I was so angry at him for leaving us. I needed to throw the blame around, and I did. Once the grieving process really started I went through the normal phases of it all...I guess finding out about an A is like a death because life as the BS knows it, is over. World is turned upside down. This is the difference between you and me, how we see the world. When my father died, I did not get angry at him at all, I feel so sorry for him, so sorry that he had all these plans he never get to carry out, so sorry that there are so many places he would like to visit but couldn't, so sorry that he can no longer play with his cameras, that he never get to know the joy of digital photography, so sorry that he can never see how the internet progress...so sorry for all the things he missed. I wish somehow, I could make it all up for him, go to all the places he was planning to go, and tell it all to him in my heart..and I hope somehow, he would be happy up there listening to me...because even though he is gone, he is still here, in my heart, with me always. And this is how I feel about the person i love but couldn't be with, I'll keep him in my heart and hope that he is happy somehow...nothing more. Link to post Share on other sites
kkat Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 personally, i've grown soooooooooo tired of the whole "character flaw" argument. it seems that periodically when someone here does something that someone else doesn't approve of (whether this forum or another), or they say they would "never" do (and i always laugh when i see someone post that they would "never" do anything!!!) they suddenly have a "character flaw." there is IMHO a HUGE difference between those of us who make a mistake and freely admit it here and those "homewreckers" who are just out to see how many marriages they can destroy in one lifetime, and last time i checked there are close to none of those who post here. and i could turn it around and say that the BS has a serious character flaw because she's insecure enough to stay in a realtionship with a man who has, and may again, cheated, and that she's flawed because she will continue to buy into his lies and not see the truth. that she doesn't vallue herself enough to stand on her own. BUT although i don't completely understand why some BSs may stay, i DON'T believe that's a character flaw. there may be issues and mistakes, but that's a totally diff ball game. mistakes, characteristics, problems etc. we ALL have them, but but character flaws??? just because we don't approve of someone else's behavior ... i don't think so! Thank you Izzy. I've decided to be very out with my opinion on this situation as pertains to MY situation and MY character and MYSELF. I am angry at myself for letting myself stay in a relationship that was a dead-end for so long, and for my ongoing stuggle to get out, stay out, and be "OK" and ready to move towards a real and true love. I have accepted that this in an area of weakness in me, likely derived from some self-esteem issues and my fears in other areas, and I am working on it from the inside out. HOWEVER, I will not accept that I am a bad person or that I have character flaws because I entered this relationship. I have plenty of flaws, but this isn't one of them... I am not responsible for any pain that his wife felt when he left her for me because I am not responsible for his actions. Period. He was the one cheating on her - not me. He was the one lying to me and convincing me with his masterful manipulations that his marriage was over. I am not responsible because I went into the relationship believing he was available, because he told me he was and because his indications seemed so clear that he was being truthful. I acted in good faith. I refused to even meet this guy for a coffee until he convinced me his marriage was 0-V-E-R. In life, love, business, we depend on the scruples of the other person. I wasn't the one without scruples here. I feel awful for his wife but I am not responsible for the lies of her husband. He is an adult. I am not some freak seductress with a gun to his head begging him to cheat on his wife. It's funny. My father has a camp house in the country and was telling me this crazy story. A family bought an adjacent camp house, moved in, spent weeks and lots of money fixing it up to be their primary residence, lived there for months, and then one night, some people appeared on the doorstep. Guess what? These people were the owners. They never sold the camphouse. The people who purchased it were victims of fraud. Someone pretended to be the owner, had a fake title, everything, and these poor people invested everything they had only to find out they are now homeless and broke. The rightful owners got their house back, and actually with some improvements. The con man hasn't been prosecuted yet. And these Other People are out of luck, out of money, and homeless. Are these Other People bad people? I don't think so. They believed a skilled con man. They didn't set out to steal a house. Link to post Share on other sites
JPMorgan Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Newbby wrote: quote: Women who knowingly enter into a relationship with a married man; or men who knowingly enter into a relationship with a married woman have some serious character flaws, imo. A cheating spouse who does not pursue an affair, but chooses to enter into one when they have the opportunity has a different flaw and one that can be worked on and lived with. A cheating spouse who pursues extramarital affairs also has some character flaws verry interesting how the ow has SERIOUS character flaws, the cheating spouse- non pursuer has A flaw and the pursuing cheating spouse has SOME flaws. Maybe I was not clear. First: everyone has flaws, I never said otherwise Second: what you consider a flaw may not be what society in general considers a flaw. What society in general considers a flaw you may not. Anyone who pursues an affair with a married person has some character flaws. Decency and consideration for others; respect for other people’s commitments; respect for self are out the window for people like this. They are selfish and don’t care about others. This does not include people who date someone and fall in love and then find out that the person they have fallen for is married. This is people with a total disregard for the feelings of others and who care not for the boundaries and rules of society, or for religion if they happen to practice a faith. OR – if they claim to care, but do not show it by their actions then they may have even more issues, or are very, very immature. A married person who pursues affairs with others is the same way. They are selfish and have no consideration or respect for others. They are promise-breakers and they find such interesting ways to justify it. Bottom line is that THEY made the choice to step outside the boundaries of their marriage or commitment without showing any courtesy to the person to whom they made a promise. They show no respect for others and have earned no respect from others. quote: Unfortunatly we don't always see those flaws before we make a commitment and give someone our love. We don't see that they are liars and users and because we love them we may appear to others to be enablers because our love blinds us to those flaws. but this of course only becomes valid if a ring is involved I never said anything about jewelry, or are you being sarcastic? My statement clearly said “a commitment” which, as far as I know, requires no exchange of gifts. quote: I would never be so selfish and self-centered and arrogant that I would steal something from someone because I do have a conscious and I do have consideration for others and I don't think only about myself and what might feel good at the time to me. this whole stealing thing is ridiculous, do you really consider marriage ownership of another person, no wonder you are so shocked and cannot believe it when you find out that this PERSON that you OWN has a mind and will of its own and it isnt necessarily what YOU had in mind for it. Again, you have interjected something that I did not say. I never mentioned ‘marriage’ in my statement. I am also not shocked in any way. I am not a thief. I do not steal things from anyone. I don’t shoplift. I don’t go into my friends’ jewelry box and steal her watch. I don’t steal other people’s children. I don’t steal other people’s husbands. I don’t steal other people’s lovers. I don’t do these things because I have consideration for other peoples feelings and I respect other peoples’ boundaries. There is a world of difference between ownership and boundaries. quote: The whole "just do it" generation has been sadly led and manipulated into believing that whatever feels good to them is OK and that they should just go forward and not think about others because no one thinks about them. Some may not have fallen for the rhetoric, but others have taken it to heart and they truly do not care about anyone but themselves. some information for you: people have been having affairs for a looooong time, its just that a few decades ago, wives thought they had to put up with it without complaint. Please don’t think you are telling me things I do not know. I am familiar with human history. More than a few decades ago people were getting divorced too. Divorce is not a derivative of recent history—it has been around since there has been marriage. None of this has anything to do with my statement about the “just do it” generation. It involves more than human relationships – many people suffer depression and low self-esteem because they grew up thinking that they could do or have anything they want. They were told not to settle and to find the perfect person, the perfect car, the perfect pair of sneakers and when they don’t get their dream they wonder why and sometimes have difficulty accepting it. They wonder where their friends are after they have treated them badly. They wonder why their relationships fall apart and blame it on the other person or they blame themselves and think they are not as good as others who seem to have it all. Sometimes they just don’t care about other people – all they see is the surface and what they ‘think’ will make them happy and they pursue people who should be unattainable, with no respect or regard for anyone but themselves. That gives them a false sense of self-esteem until that relationship crashes. Yo-yo diets for the heart. izzybelle wrote: personally, i've grown soooooooooo tired of the whole "character flaw" argument. it seems that periodically when someone here does something that someone else doesn't approve of (whether this forum or another), or they say they would "never" do (and i always laugh when i see someone post that they would "never" do anything!!!) they suddenly have a "character flaw." I’m not approving or disapproving anything. I responded to the thread. I’m glad that I provided a laugh for you. People don’t suddenly develop a character flaw – it’s there all the time. Awareness of it and controlling it are different matters. What point are you trying to make here? there is IMHO a HUGE difference between those of us who make a mistake and freely admit it here and those "homewreckers" who are just out to see how many marriages they can destroy in one lifetime, and last time i checked there are close to none of those who post here. Go back and read what I wrote. I qualified my descriptions. and i could turn it around and say that the BS has a serious character flaw because she's insecure enough to stay in a realtionship with a man who has, and may again, cheated, and that she's flawed because she will continue to buy into his lies and not see the truth. How is that turning anything around? There may indeed be a character flaw with a person who stays with someone who has lied to them because of their own insecurities. Perhaps the type of person you described is severely co-dependent. It has nothing to do with the character flaws/arrogance/selfishness of the two people who made a decision to have an affair. that she doesn't vallue herself enough to stand on her own. BUT although i don't completely understand why some BSs may stay, i DON'T believe that's a character flaw. there may be issues and mistakes, but that's a totally diff ball game. mistakes, characteristics, problems etc. we ALL have them, but but character flaws??? just because we don't approve of someone else's behavior ... i don't think so! Perhaps you don’t understand what a character flaw is. It is a learned behavioral disorder. very few of us are perfect although i'll admit i've met some here who would like the entire world to believe that. and those are usually the people who are the most troubled and most troubling because they tend to pass judgement on anyone and everyone who doesn't live up to their "perfect" standards. and i've met them in real life ... kind of amusing in a sad sort of way. Very few?! Who do you know who is perfect? If you think that I was passing judgment on others think again please. I was and am stating my opinion. Just as everyone else is doing. If that was a slam aimed at me, sorry but you missed. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Thank you Izzy. I've decided to be very out with my opinion on this situation as pertains to MY situation and MY character and MYSELF. I am angry at myself for letting myself stay in a relationship that was a dead-end for so long, and for my ongoing stuggle to get out, stay out, and be "OK" and ready to move towards a real and true love. I have accepted that this in an area of weakness in me, likely derived from some self-esteem issues and my fears in other areas, and I am working on it from the inside out. HOWEVER, I will not accept that I am a bad person or that I have character flaws because I entered this relationship. I have plenty of flaws, but this isn't one of them... I am not responsible for any pain that his wife felt when he left her for me because I am not responsible for his actions. Period. He was the one cheating on her - not me. He was the one lying to me and convincing me with his masterful manipulations that his marriage was over. I am not responsible because I went into the relationship believing he was available, because he told me he was and because his indications seemed so clear that he was being truthful. I acted in good faith. I refused to even meet this guy for a coffee until he convinced me his marriage was 0-V-E-R. In life, love, business, we depend on the scruples of the other person. I wasn't the one without scruples here. I feel awful for his wife but I am not responsible for the lies of her husband. He is an adult. I am not some freak seductress with a gun to his head begging him to cheat on his wife. It's funny. My father has a camp house in the country and was telling me this crazy story. A family bought an adjacent camp house, moved in, spent weeks and lots of money fixing it up to be their primary residence, lived there for months, and then one night, some people appeared on the doorstep. Guess what? These people were the owners. They never sold the camphouse. The people who purchased it were victims of fraud. Someone pretended to be the owner, had a fake title, everything, and these poor people invested everything they had only to find out they are now homeless and broke. The rightful owners got their house back, and actually with some improvements. The con man hasn't been prosecuted yet. And these Other People are out of luck, out of money, and homeless. Are these Other People bad people? I don't think so. They believed a skilled con man. They didn't set out to steal a house. very good sincere post kkat Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 This is the difference between you and me, how we see the world. When my father died, I did not get angry at him at all, I feel so sorry for him, so sorry that he had all these plans he never get to carry out, so sorry that there are so many places he would like to visit but couldn't, so sorry that he can no longer play with his cameras, that he never get to know the joy of digital photography, so sorry that he can never see how the internet progress...so sorry for all the things he missed. I wish somehow, I could make it all up for him, go to all the places he was planning to go, and tell it all to him in my heart..and I hope somehow, he would be happy up there listening to me...because even though he is gone, he is still here, in my heart, with me always. And this is how I feel about the person i love but couldn't be with, I'll keep him in my heart and hope that he is happy somehow...nothing more. i'm sorry jj but everyone deals with pain in different ways, there is nothing wrong with the way that wwiu dealt with the pain of losing her father. i know that you are saying it is different only, but it does sound as though you are viewing her way of dealing as inferior to yours, forgive me if i am wrong. AND i am sorry for both of your pain Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I have accepted that this in an area of weakness in me, likely derived from some self-esteem issues and my fears in other areas, and I am working on it from the inside out. yes i feel the same and if we can look at our mistakes and become better people for them then surely this is a good thing and can somewhere along the way benefit other people Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Anyone who pursues an affair with a married person has some character flaws. Decency and consideration for others; respect for other people’s commitments; respect for self are out the window for people like this. They are selfish and don’t care about others. This does not include people who date someone and fall in love and then find out that the person they have fallen for is married. This is people with a total disregard for the feelings of others and who care not for the boundaries and rules of society, or for religion if they happen to practice a faith. OR – if they claim to care, but do not show it by their actions then they may have even more issues, or are very, very immature. your opinions are based on what exactly? please do not expect your psychological analysis to be taken seriously unless you explain yourself better than this. in my opinion this is your opinion and it looks like you pulled it straight outta your a$$ Link to post Share on other sites
JPMorgan Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Originally posted by newbby your opinions are based on what exactly? please do not expect your psychological analysis to be taken seriously unless you explain yourself better than this. in my opinion this is your opinion and it looks like you pulled it straight outta your a$$ My opinions are just as valid as yours. Just because you don't like them does not make them any less 'serious' than your own. What are anyone's opinions based on? Education, experience, and personal values. It does not appear that you want further explanation and I certainly do not need to defend myself. If you can't follow or understand what I have already stated then I can't help you. If you, or anyone else, wishes to jump to conclusions rather than discuss the thread topic - be my guest! Its not going to change my opinion. If you feel the need to discredit me in some way - go for it. You will only be discrediting me to yourself and it has no impact on me or my opinions. I did not come here with expectations from individual posters, did you? I have not read your whole story. Are you an OW? IF that is the case, why did you make the choice to enter into, or stay in a relationship with a married man? I don't really want or expect an answer, only you know the reasons and I don't need to know them since I am not giving my opinion on you personally. Somewhere along the way was it you who said something about learning from one's mistakes? You know that character flaws are not terminal or necessarily permanent? Perhaps its simply the term "character flaw" to which you seem to strongly object. Perhaps if I had originally said that "people who repeatedly and deliberately lie to the person to whom they have made a commitment are selfish.... " Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 JPMorgan, the thing is....this thread was moved from the infidelity section to here because some of us jumped in on the thread there questioning what the OWs might say in return or how we felt about the BS ... perhaps THAT is the thread that you should be posting this all on. and we were in the wrong to do that, it was their thread and we intruded. i'm sure it's still somewhere over there. this thread is not a debate over how one defines character flaws and whether or not we, or you, have them. the topic of this thread is about what OWs might want to say to the MMs wife (OK i don't remember the actual title and have to get my daughter to dance so forgive me if i'm wrong).... and while you may feel this course of discussion iis nteresting and perhaps helping you to vent some of your frustration a bit, some of us who have been around here for a while have had this discussion with others, many, many times over. you won't convince us you're right and we won't be able to convince you that we are. and you'll forgive my frustration but about once a month some BS comes on here and says the same thing. I’m not approving or disapproving anything yeah ya did. you may not have used those words but ... it was pretty clear. and well, if you're not disapproving does that mean you'd consider having an affair with a married man? Perhaps you don’t understand what a character flaw is. It is a learned behavioral disorder. gotcha and i know that, and i'm not entirely sure how if someone makes a mistake and falls in love with someone they shouldn't that it fits into your definition. puzzling. so the fact that i fell in love with someone i shouldn't have means i have a learned behavioral disorder. hmmmm and i just thought i did something stupid, oh well. i'll have to tuck that one away for future reference the next time someone comes to see me for counseling. izzy Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Originally posted by jj003 This is the difference between you and me, how we see the world. When my father died, I did not get angry at him at all, I feel so sorry for him, so sorry that he had all these plans he never get to carry out, so sorry that there are so many places he would like to visit but couldn't, so sorry that he can no longer play with his cameras, that he never get to know the joy of digital photography, so sorry that he can never see how the internet progress...so sorry for all the things he missed. I wish somehow, I could make it all up for him, go to all the places he was planning to go, and tell it all to him in my heart..and I hope somehow, he would be happy up there listening to me...because even though he is gone, he is still here, in my heart, with me always. And this is how I feel about the person i love but couldn't be with, I'll keep him in my heart and hope that he is happy somehow...nothing more. I didn't say that I was JUST angry, it's part of the 5 stages of coping with death. I wasn't angry and bitter the whole time, I went through alot of grieving too. The anger was more why did he have to leave us, why he gave up - He didn't fight it, even he said so himself. That coulda shoulda woulda in a sense. I do wish he was still here to see my nieces and nephews, his grandchildren, to be part of their lives, to be part of all of our lives... This summer will be 12 years. How long has it been since your father passed away? I'm sorry for your loss. Tough at times still, especially with Father's Day coming up this weekend. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Originally posted by newbby i'm sorry jj but everyone deals with pain in different ways, there is nothing wrong with the way that wwiu dealt with the pain of losing her father. i know that you are saying it is different only, but it does sound as though you are viewing her way of dealing as inferior to yours, forgive me if i am wrong. AND i am sorry for both of your pain Thanks for that newbby. I didn't express myself properly, I made it seem that was all I had in me, anger. And that isn't the case at all. There are stages of death we have to go through and grieve until we can heal to the fullest. I did think that too actually, but I got some PMS today again and wasn't too sure if I was taking it the wrong way! Yes, everybody deals with death differently and whatever way works for each individual is fine. I don't think there is any right or wrong way of dealing with it and certainly doesn't make anybody better or smarter of the proper way. There is no proper way. As long as one is coping with it and not crawling into bed and not dealing with the pain - can't function. Link to post Share on other sites
jj003 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Originally posted by whichwayisup I didn't say that I was JUST angry, it's part of the 5 stages of coping with death. I wasn't angry and bitter the whole time, I went through alot of grieving too. The anger was more why did he have to leave us, why he gave up - He didn't fight it, even he said so himself. That coulda shoulda woulda in a sense. I do wish he was still here to see my nieces and nephews, his grandchildren, to be part of their lives, to be part of all of our lives... This summer will be 12 years. How long has it been since your father passed away? I'm sorry for your loss. Tough at times still, especially with Father's Day coming up this weekend. I am so sorry to hear about your pain also...my father passed away when he wasn't so old still, this was the difficult part, we thought he would live longer, he thought he would have all those years ahead to do many things he planned to do..but he didn't .........I feel sad when I think about all the plans he had. Life is never fair, sometimes I think why my father had to die young while my friends' fathers can live for so many more years. This is why I think we must make he best of today for we never know what tomorrow may bring... and hopefully, when we die, we won't have much regrets.. It 's been 17 years... You must miss him so much also. Link to post Share on other sites
jj003 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Originally posted by JPMorgan Maybe I was not clear. Again, you have interjected something that I did not say. I never mentioned ‘marriage’ in my statement. I am also not shocked in any way. I am not a thief. I do not steal things from anyone. I don’t shoplift. I don’t go into my friends’ jewelry box and steal her watch. I don’t steal other people’s children. I don’t steal other people’s husbands. I don’t steal other people’s lovers. I don’t do these things because I have consideration for other peoples feelings and I respect other peoples’ boundaries. There is a world of difference between ownership and boundaries. You said you didn't mentioned marriage in the statment, and you wrote" I don't steal other people's husband"?? Other people's husband cannot be stolen unless he is a willing participant himself! No one can do something to someone unless that person wishes to do it himself !! He thinks !!! he has a mind of his own ! Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I did think that too actually, but I got some PMS today again and wasn't too sure if I was taking it the wrong way! pms, me too! Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 My opinions are just as valid as yours. Just because you don't like them does not make them any less 'serious' than your own. i didnt say your opinions werent valid, however i just dont see the point you are trying to make. if by saying "ow are selfish and have character flaws and i would never do what they do..." you are trying to add something original or interesting or deep or insightful or even helpful to the discussion, then i am sorry for misunderstanding, however could you please make yourself more clear. it looks from your words (and i know i must be mistaken) as though you are doing nothing more than using this as an opportunity to flaunt your own flawless character. well if this is the case, i for one am not impressed, it shows no wisdom no compassion no depth and no originality of thought and it is not even following the original topic Its not going to change my opinion. another indication of a rigid attitude, a temporary aberration perhaps, because they DO exist I have not read your whole story. Are you an OW? IF that is the case, why did you make the choice to enter into, or stay in a relationship with a married man? I don't really want or expect an answer, only you know the reasons and I don't need to know them since I am not giving my opinion on you personally. why?? ask a question that you dont want an answer to? is it because you are actually not the least bit interested in the answer perchance? this proves my point that you are only in here for one reason, to flaunt your own 'morality' Somewhere along the way was it you who said something about learning from one's mistakes? You know that character flaws are not terminal or necessarily permanent? Perhaps its simply the term "character flaw" to which you seem to strongly object. Perhaps if I had originally said that "people who repeatedly and deliberately lie to the person to whom they have made a commitment are selfish.... " no you are entitled to your own opinion and it doesnt bother me what you think of ow but the way you state your opinions is extremely irritating. such as stating your opinions as a FACT, without backing it up with anything, and to say "people....ARE SELISH...." doesnt sound as though you are talking about a temporary trait at all, so please make yourself clearer and add some intelligent reasoning to your opinions. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Originally posted by jj003 I am so sorry to hear about your pain also...my father passed away when he wasn't so old still, this was the difficult part, we thought he would live longer, he thought he would have all those years ahead to do many things he planned to do..but he didn't .........I feel sad when I think about all the plans he had. Life is never fair, sometimes I think why my father had to die young while my friends' fathers can live for so many more years. This is why I think we must make he best of today for we never know what tomorrow may bring... and hopefully, when we die, we won't have much regrets.. It 's been 17 years... You must miss him so much also. I do miss him, this summer will be 12 years. Agree with ya, live life to the fullest cuz we never know wtf is gonna happen tomorrow. Originally posted by newbby pms, me too! Damn! Still got it today too! Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 wwiu and jj - it will be 20 years ago, this summer, that we lost my dad, some days it still feels like yesterday, and other days it's a lifetime ago. between that and my bout with cancer, i definitely believe 100% in living each day to the fullest. life's too short, and we just never know. no PMS for me today. that should hit just in time for my date on saturday!!!! <<hugs>> izzy Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Originally posted by izzybelle wwiu and jj - it will be 20 years ago, this summer, that we lost my dad, some days it still feels like yesterday, and other days it's a lifetime ago. between that and my bout with cancer, i definitely believe 100% in living each day to the fullest. life's too short, and we just never know. no PMS for me today. that should hit just in time for my date on saturday!!!! <<hugs>> izzy Sorry for your loss as well. I know what you mean, at times it feels like a lifetime ago, like a dream or something, then other times (Birthdays really hit me hard as our bdays were days apart and we'd always celebrate them as one - Do a huge family thing.) when it hits home. Saturday huh? By then I'll probably be moaning about my cramps and taking advil! Well, hope the date goes well, and that he doesn't irritate the heck of you! Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Saturday huh? By then I'll probably be moaning about my cramps and taking advil! Well, hope the date goes well, and that he doesn't irritate the heck of you! i don't think he'll irritate me! it's been interesting getting to know him and so far, he's been nothing but a real sweetheart. his wife cheated on him and left him for her OM and is now with a different BF. i'm the first woman he's really dated, since they split, so he still has a lot of healing to do. but we both have hectic days up until sat. so i'm guessing we'll both crash in front of the tv watching a movie and drinking beer! so unless he picks some movie i hate, i think we'll be able to keep the irritation level pretty low!! and might i suggest a hot bath and a nice stiff drink for you this weekend? always seems to help me with cramps, or at least helps me to forget about them!!! Link to post Share on other sites
jj003 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Originally posted by izzybelle wwiu and jj - it will be 20 years ago, this summer, that we lost my dad, some days it still feels like yesterday, and other days it's a lifetime ago. between that and my bout with cancer, i definitely believe 100% in living each day to the fullest. life's too short, and we just never know. no PMS for me today. that should hit just in time for my date on saturday!!!! <<hugs>> izzy sorry to hear your lost...yes, sometimes, it feels like a life time ago, and sometimes it feels like only yesterday... here's another feeling we can share .....missing our dads...! esp. this sunday .............. I have no pms... hope you have a great date on sat.!!! Link to post Share on other sites
JPMorgan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Originally posted by Mr Spock Exactly. You think you've got the market on pain cornered simply because you were MARRIED to someone?? Gawd I admit, I have not read the thread this is split from. I don't know if someone said that because they were married the pain was worse, or if it was a comment by someone else; but being a married couple carries a little more weight vs. dating or engaged in most cases. For many people it's easier to justify to themselves the breaking of a promise made to one person, alone with nothing to substantiate that promise than it is to break a vow taken in front of God (if religious) and witnesses. For those who have been married you may understand what I mean. Its like putting a letter in an envelope and tucking the top flap under vs. wetting the glue and sealing the envelope. Its subtle, but its often there. The vows of marriage are sacred and its serious business making those vows. I am SO tired of the attitude that the OW is betraying the wife simply because they're both women. A big freaking percentage of the women on here are PURSUED by your husbands. They form emotional attachments - REAL FEELINGS, people - and yes, they have sex. Probably as much as they can. Even if they INTENTIONALLY pursue your husband, it doesn't make them EVIL - women look at a man and think he equals happiness and they mean to have themselves a piece of that happiness. Wives do it too. It's why they cling so tightly when he's done nothing but cuckhold them since day one. I'm guessing that someone made a statement to the effect that women should stick together and it's like some sorority where we are all supposed to be sisters and not take advantage of each other or something. I don't agree with that either. Women are people and we don't owe each other special treatment by virtue of having the same gender. But as people, we should respect each others boundaries. If a woman, for whatever reason, pursues a married man - knowing that he is married then she deserves whatever hurt she suffers for her actions and should be held accountable. Of course, if she pursuades the married man to have a relationship with her then he is responsible also. If a co-worker, friend, stranger, relative comes up to your husband and flirts and he doesn't say "Hey, back off I'm married and I love my wife" and instead whips it out and dips that wick then you've got no one to be mad at but him. But, it rarely works like that. Believe it or not, the man that professes to loooooooooooove you for better or for worse usually decides he needs a new cow. Sometimes it's because the old cow isn't doing it for him anymore. I will never fully understand why so many people don't just discuss it with the person they vowed to be with. If a person can't talk to their spouse and say "you aren't doing it for me anymore" and then try to fix it or end it, then why did they marry or otherwise commit to each other in the first place. IMO it is never the betrayed spouse's fault. Link to post Share on other sites
JPMorgan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Originally posted by phillygirl63 Give me a break. Most men could stick it into a mole hole and really like it. I, for one, think it's hysterical that OW fall for the sh*t these men give them regarding their marriage, wife, feelings for them, etc. The OW somehow find the crap these MM feed them flattering and actually buy it! MM that cheat will take whatever they can get and when they find a live one they will jump onto them like a tick to a deer. OW would love to believe the lies these MM tell them about what a wretch they have at home and how they are just staying because of the kids. 9 1/2 out of 10 of them would dump them cold when the wife finds out. They may have enjoyed sticking their penis in another woman but they aren't going to stick their necks out because of it. I think it is sad that OW who are pursued by married men allow themselves to believe the lies and willingly enter into a relationship. I think it speaks volumes for the type of person they are. Weak, low-self esteem, perhaps selfish and uncaring of others. It's pathetic that there is some flawed part of them that will do this. Link to post Share on other sites
JPMorgan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Originally posted by ~Naive~ The way you put it makes it more clear that both the OW and the W are victims of a selfish man!!! Of course that's not always the case, sometimes the OW is also at fault and other times it's the wife. The case is always going to be different. The only thing that always is the same is that the Hspouse who cheats is the real f*cker in this whole situation because he owes respect to his wife and the OW/OM do not owe sh*t to the W or H!!! Whatever the OW/OM does is only wrong doing to themselves. How can a wife be at fault if her husband cheats on her? The husband makes the decision. In some cases an OW may be a victim such as dating and falling in love with a man whom they believe to be single. In that case, once they learn he is married why don't they leave? Because whatever character flaw they have renders them incapable of making the right decision? Because they are selfish and heartbroken and can't face that they have been hurt? I understand it may be difficult to break it off because they love these men but sometimes doing the right thing means doing the most painful thing. Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 How can a wife be at fault if her husband cheats on her? The husband makes the decision. i do think there are times, not always, where the BS does have a part in all of it. obviously, the A is not justified (almost never) and a more appropriate course of action would be to D before he or she decides to start messing around with someone else. but if there are problems in the marriage that the WS has tried repeatedly to repair and the other party refuses, or ignores, or tries for a while and stops, or whatever, then yes, i do believe that part of the responsilbilty for the marriage failing falls on that BS's shoulders, as well. and like i said, perhaps the A is not justified but the BS has played a role in the marriage getting to that point. it takes two to make a marriage succeed and, in most cases, two to make it fail. i believe that it's the BSs who blame others and do not accept or recognize their part in all of this, that end up with the most heartache in the end. by absolving themselves from any part in it (and i realize that there may be some cases where the WS is just a complete a'hole), blaming the OWOM more than the WS, they may be enabling the WS to just do it again once the dust settles. after all, if the majority of the blame lies on the OW/OMs shoulders, nothing changes to make the marriage better, the BS welcomes the WS back into the marriage, why wouldn't they? it may be a year or more down the road but i wouldn't be a bit surprised. Link to post Share on other sites
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