What Other Women Have to Say to Betrayed Wives

[JPMorgan]

Originally posted by newbby

i didnt say your opinions werent valid, however i just dont see the point you are trying to make. if by saying "ow are selfish and have character flaws and i would never do what they do..." you are trying to add something original or interesting or deep or insightful or even helpful to the discussion, then i am sorry for misunderstanding, however could you please make yourself more clear. it looks from your words (and i know i must be mistaken) as though you are doing nothing more than using this as an opportunity to flaunt your own flawless character.

 

[color=red]Everyone has flaws. Most do not deliberately cause grevious hurt to others.[/color]

 

well if this is the case, i for one am not impressed, it shows no wisdom no compassion no depth and no originality of thought and it is not even following the original topic

 

[color=red] I'm not here to impress anyone, and I have very little, if any compassion for people who deliberately and selfishly behave in ways that they know will cause others pain and can be avoided. I see this type of behavior as no different than driving drunk and crashing into someone else and injuring them or killing them. It's a bad decision. Continuing an affair with a married person would be like driving drunk all the time. OW/OM who do this deserve whatever pain they get - they earned it with their selfish actions. Someone mentioned evil - I don't see them as evil and there may very well be some great aspects to their personalities, but IMO they have some serious character flaws. [/color]

 

another indication of a rigid attitude, a temporary aberration perhaps, because they DO exist

 

 

why?? ask a question that you dont want an answer to? is it because you are actually not the least bit interested in the answer perchance? this proves my point that you are only in here for one reason, to flaunt your own 'morality'

 

[color=red] It was a rhetorical question. I had hoped that maybe if you thought about your answer in regards to my post you might better understand my POV. Please notice, I said 'understand' not agree-with. I don't need to know your personal details because I am not commenting on YOU in particular.

 

 

no you are entitled to your own opinion and it doesnt bother me what you think of ow but the way you state your opinions is extremely irritating. such as stating your opinions as a FACT, without backing it up with anything, and to say "people....ARE SELISH...." doesnt sound as though you are talking about a temporary trait at all, so please make yourself clearer and add some intelligent reasoning to your opinions.

 

Opinions do not require backing and I never presented my opinions as fact. Everything on this website is opinion, I had hoped that everyone realized that. This is not a classroom or research library.

[izzybelle]

Opinions do not require backing and I never presented my opinions as fact. Everything on this website is opinion, I had hoped that everyone realized that. This is not a classroom or research library.

 

yes, you're right (sort of) but sometimes people present their opinions in such a way that it sounds like they're trying to say that it's the only, best, or right way to think about things. and sometimes things are stated in a way where one might be asked to back up their opinion or perhaps discuss where it comes from.

 

one of the wonderful things about a site like this is that we can all express our opinions, thoughts and views. but ... because there's no face to face or easy way to say "well, what i really meant" people don't always realize how their words come off sounding to another person. we know what we mean when we wrote something, others aren't always privy to that info. except for me who can read minds through my keyboard

[JPMorgan]

Originally posted by izzybelle

i do think there are times, not always, where the BS does have a part in all of it. obviously, the A is not justified (almost never) and a more appropriate course of action would be to D before he or she decides to start messing around with someone else. but if there are problems in the marriage that the WS has tried repeatedly to repair and the other party refuses, or ignores, or tries for a while and stops, or whatever, then yes, i do believe that part of the responsilbilty for the marriage failing falls on that BS's shoulders, as well. and like i said, perhaps the A is not justified but the BS has played a role in the marriage getting to that point. it takes two to make a marriage succeed and, in most cases, two to make it fail.

 

i believe that it's the BSs who blame others and do not accept or recognize their part in all of this, that end up with the most heartache in the end. by absolving themselves from any part in it (and i realize that there may be some cases where the WS is just a complete a'hole), blaming the OWOM more than the WS, they may be enabling the WS to just do it again once the dust settles. after all, if the majority of the blame lies on the OW/OMs shoulders, nothing changes to make the marriage better, the BS welcomes the WS back into the marriage, why wouldn't they? it may be a year or more down the road but i wouldn't be a bit surprised.

 

I am not sure if I see your point exactly. The failure of a marriage does not always include an affair. If people can't make it work then yes, they should divorce before seeing others. No matter how bad the marriage is, or how horrible the wife may be, the husband should get a divorce before beginning any new relationships. Even if the BS screams "go have an affair, I don't care" the decision to do so is ultimately up to the spouse and if they have some decency and compassion and self respect - they will still refrain and get a divorce first -- for their own self-esteem.

 

I know that emotions get all twisted into this and it happens sometimes that a betrayed spouse enables their husband (or wife) to cheat/continue cheating, but enabling only carries responsibility for self---it's still the cheating spouses decision to cheat.

[whichwayisup]

How can a wife be at fault if her husband cheats on her? The husband makes the decision.

 

She isn't at fault, he CHOSE to have the affair but problems in the marriage could have pushed him into having an affair. It isn't right, he should talk to her about it, try to fix the problems in the marriage not take the easy and selfish way out by cheating.

 

When most BS's find out about the affair, the blame game starts, OW is mostly the target at first because the W is in denial that her H could DO such a thing. Then she blames her H and herself because the mind automatically goes into the what if I had done this better, or was better in bed, or listened more...Same goes if W goes and cheats, the H may feel the same way.

 

In the end, everybody gets hurt. Doesn't matter by that point in pointing fingers, it's more just trying to deal and cope with the pain and all the changes because of his/her actions.

[izzybelle]

you're right. the failure of a marriage doesn't always involve an affair. my point is that while an A is not justified, in most (not all) cases it takes two to get to the point where a marriage is bad enough that one spouse would consider straying. and that is my point. the OW may be partially at fault for the A but she is hardly ever responsible for the fact that the marriage had gotten bad enough for the A to have become a possibility. so even if the OW is completely out of the picture, if the M is not repaired (i.e. both H and W accepting the fact that they need to work on the marriage) chances are the same pattern of events will take place again.

[aires_girl4380]

I keep reading that the W has “more invested” than the OW.

I thought marriage was built off for love? Not monetary assets?!

The W may have spend more time, bought a car &/or a house with H/MM, does that mean you forgive & forget &/or that you get first dibes? The H made the decision

To have an affair for whatever reason there are 1,ooo out there & the OW may or may not know or care that he is married. The OW is only affecting herself. These MM are not stupid- quite the opposite. They like most will do whatever you will allow then to do…..WHY NOT?!?!?!?

[jj003]

Originally posted by aires_girl4380

I keep reading that the W has “more invested” than the OW.

I thought marriage was built off for love? Not monetary assets?!

The W may have spend more time, bought a car &/or a house with H/MM, does that mean you forgive & forget &/or that you get first dibes? The H made the decision

To have an affair for whatever reason there are 1,ooo out there & the OW may or may not know or care that he is married. The OW is only affecting herself. These MM are not stupid- quite the opposite. They like most will do whatever you will allow then to do…..WHY NOT?!?!?!?

agree except mm will not only do what you allow him to do but what he will allow himself to do, as you said, they do have a mind of their own.

[whichwayisup]

Oh definately. The BS isn't at fault in a sense but could be a deciding factor, depending on the situation at home. If needs aren't being met, either emotionally or sexually, and the relationship in general is deteriorating, then cheating is a possibility. It's the wrong and selfish choice, but it obviously happens.

 

I don't think at that point the 'cheater' is thinking clearly either, of future consquences or the pain inflicted. It's a total ME ME ME senario and wanting to feel good again. The thing is, once the affair starts and all the feelings come out with the OW/OM, they're usually so far gone to walk away, even if they know it's wrong and they feel guilty. That is why the deny factor is HUGE when they get caught! (My spin on it anyway, I'm sure there are lots of other opinions on this.)

 

It isn't easy to sit down with your spouse on a good day and discuss something serious. SO I can only imagine how hard it is to go through a situation of fixing a bad marriage and be strong enough to come forward before an affair starts and tell the spouse how unhappy you are, that cheating has crossed the mind. It's human nature at times to want to do the easier thing, even if it isn't right. That also includes some reasonings into why OW stay with MM for so long because of that feeling they get when with the MM. Not easy to walk away from someone who rocks your world, even though there's alot of pain and you're second best. It's easy to sit and justify all the reasons but put in that situation everybody is capable of staying in a relationship (with marriage, or an affair) that you should walk away from but can't.

[whichwayisup]

Originally posted by aires_girl4380

I keep reading that the W has “more invested” than the OW.

I thought marriage was built off for love? Not monetary assets?!

The W may have spend more time, bought a car &/or a house with H/MM, does that mean you forgive & forget &/or that you get first dibes? The H made the decision

To have an affair for whatever reason there are 1,ooo out there & the OW may or may not know or care that he is married. The OW is only affecting herself. These MM are not stupid- quite the opposite. They like most will do whatever you will allow then to do…..WHY NOT?!?!?!?

 

OW may have more passion, crushy-lust feelings for investment than the wife. The wife has the history and deep love, deep caring and trust in her husband whereas the OW has the fun filled, happy go lucky part.

 

I agree, the MM isn't stupid. I mean comeon, in all honesty I'm sure he is loving all the attention, two women, one who takes care of everything at home, his kids and live a life together then on the side he has the OW for making him feel desired, sexy, excited and wanted. Problem is OW allows the MM to control her because he knows how to push the buttons by knowing HE MAKES HER QUIVER and FEEL GOOD....That is really powerful.

[jj003]

Originally posted by izzybelle

perhaps the A is not justified but the BS has played a role in the marriage getting to that point. it takes two to make a marriage succeed and, in most cases, two to make it fail.

 

i believe that it's the BSs who blame others and do not accept or recognize their part in all of this, that end up with the most heartache in the end. by absolving themselves from any part in it (and i realize that there may be some cases where the WS is just a complete a'hole), blaming the OWOM more than the WS, they may be enabling the WS to just do it again once the dust settles. after all, if the majority of the blame lies on the OW/OMs shoulders, nothing changes to make the marriage better, the BS welcomes the WS back into the marriage, why wouldn't they? it may be a year or more down the road but i wouldn't be a bit surprised.

 

if we only blame another for all our problems and never look at our own roles in it all, always judge another" because this is what the society think, thus you are wrong" without having any understanding or compassion into another's situation? I think we ourselves set our own downfalls, because we will never improve...and we will keep making the same mistake..so it is ok, if the BS wants to blame the OW for all her problems, let her...because she will end up exactly where she is now a few years down the road. nothing will change for her....!

 

As for those who like to say that "I am just telling you what the society think of you..etc" why the society think so? because there are people like you out there who think like that to begin with !

[jj003]

Originally posted by whichwayisup

OW may have more passion, crushy-lust feelings for investment than the wife. The wife has the history and deep love, deep caring and trust in her husband whereas the OW has the fun filled, happy go lucky part.

.

How do you know this? It may not always be the case..the ow may have deep love, deep caring and trust in the mm also !!! maybe even deeper than the BS, because the OW loves the mm enough to be second best ! to take all the pain willingly !

[whichwayisup]

Originally posted by jj003

 

How do you know this? It may not always be the case..the ow may have deep love, deep caring and trust in the mm also !!! maybe even deeper than the BS, because the OW loves the mm enough to be second best ! to take all the pain willingly !

 

 

The operative word I put in was MAY. I didn't say ALL. Re-read what I wrote. This isn't direct at you personally, so please don't read into my post.

 

OW obviously has emotional investment, she's made him her life - Sadly for the OW though HE has his life with his wife, his children, their friends together, family, neighbours, parties, weddings, public outings. Stability.

 

You may feel your feelings go deeper for MM than the wife's, but that is assuming too. I don't know okay, everybody has their take on this thread.

 

OW loves MM enough to be second best, to take the all the pain willingly...OK, well don't complain about the pain you're inflicting on yourself willingly and get upset. If you know a car is coming down the street and somebody yells CAR, usually people get off the road so they won't get hit. They don't go running towards it so they get creamed.

[jj003]

Originally posted by whichwayisup

The operative word I put in was MAY. I didn't say ALL. Re-read what I wrote. This isn't direct at you personally, so please don't read into my post.

 

OW obviously has emotional investment, she's made him her life - Sadly for the OW though HE has his life with his wife, his children, their friends together, family, neighbours, parties, weddings, public outings. Stability.

 

You may feel your feelings go deeper for MM than the wife's, but that is assuming too. I don't know okay, everybody has their take on this thread.

 

OW loves MM enough to be second best, to take the all the pain willingly...OK, well don't complain about the pain you're inflicting on yourself willingly and get upset. If you know a car is coming down the street and somebody yells CAR, usually people get off the road so they won't get hit. They don't go running towards it so they get creamed.

 

You wrote :"The wife has the history and deep love, deep caring and trust in her husband whereas the OW has the fun filled, happy go lucky part. "

I am not talking about myself, cause I really don't have an A...I am talking about OW in general, we do not know how deep their feelings are, do we? it is not fair or right to say one has deeper feelings than another!

As for myself, I may have feelings but I never did anything... ..because I don't want to complicated things further

but it doesn't means I won't in the future or I am better than anyone who has an A,

because maybe in a given situation, I may also...

I do not complain about the pain I am in, if I feel any pain, I have no one to blame but myself

If I like a mm, he maybe a bit selfish at times, but who ask me to like or love him? that's my problem, not his?

If I don't like the way he behaves, i simply don't even have to know him...it is my own free choice to know him, to like him or to love him

and it is my own free choice to accept what so ever or not to accept it? why would I ask anyone for sympathy? certainly not from the BS

Just because I like him, i do not see he has any obligation to do anything for me? If I feel he doesn't care for me enough,

I don't even have to accept it? It is my own free choice to accept what ever it is?

and no matter what anyone may say, I feel the biggest gift anyone can give to another is the freedom to choose what is best for him/her.

I would not say who's feelings is more real or who suffers more..because I think we all do, BS and OW, in our own ways.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by jj003

As for those who like to say that "I am just telling you what the society think of you..etc" why the society think so? because there are people like you out there who think like that to begin with !

 

Looks like this was directed at me from this thread.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t64378 If anyone has 2 hours to kill.

 

 

jj003 keeps missing the point. newbby understands what I am talking about (I think).

 

 

"People like you..." is judging but this is just a jab at jj003.

 

Anyway, kkat gave an excellent example of what I am talking about when she said:

 

'HOWEVER, I will not accept that I am a bad person or that I have character flaws because I entered this relationship. I have plenty of flaws, but this isn't one of them...

 

I am not responsible for any pain that his wife felt when he left her for me because I am not responsible for his actions. Period."

 

Excellent!

 

In other words, kkat can care less how other people (society) judges her. She knows what kind of person she is.

 

Now that she is secure about herself, society has no hold on her. NOW it doesn't matter what society thinks. Can society do anything to her? NO, becasue the only "punishment" for infedility is frowning and stigmatizing but since she doesn't care about what society thinks the punishment is nulled.

 

To quote myself from the other forum.

 

"On thing is to question society, another is to defend ones own actions.

 

On one hand your defending your actions to society. On another your questioning society's perception and attitude towards an individual.

 

Seperate the two and it will be easier to see how society works and not work.

 

I believe that as long as the institution of marriage is in place, infidelity will always be a taboo.

 

But hey, things have gotten better. No one gets stoned these days. I think any cheater will take negative attitudes over stoning any day" - me

 

progress is slow but it is progress.

[jj003]

Don't try to mislead others, this was what newbby wrote:

 

sorry to interrupt this very entertaining arguement but bronzepen i think you will see that THIS is where you made it YOUR view, right at the beggining. You then proceeded with "society thinks..."

therefore you gave both myself and jj the very strong impression that this was indeed your opinion

 

.

[jj003]

Don't try to mislead others,

This was what you wrote:

 

 

Hmm, all good points, I am being sincere when I say that.

 

You answered the posters question about the stigma that the OW gets in the media, as well as, in the general public.

 

But is it right to say the OW/OM has "something wrong with them"? Should it really be a stigma?

 

My answer is yes. I also believe that the MM/MW involved in the affair should be and are to some extent included, as well.

 

Your right, ink on paper and a ring does not change a person. But this goes both ways. A marriage can't keep a person faithfull but it also doesn't make a person want to have more then one partner.

 

Your view is that it's human nature so it's "OK" or "it can't be helped, it's the nature of the beast so don't put me down" or say something is "wrong" with them.

 

this was what newbby wrote:

 

sorry to interrupt this very entertaining arguement but bronzepen i think you will see that THIS is where you made it YOUR view, right at the beggining. You then proceeded with "society thinks..."

therefore you gave both myself and jj the very strong impression that this was indeed your opinion

 

.

[JPMorgan]

Originally posted by jj003

the ow may have deep love, deep caring and trust in the mm also !!! maybe even deeper than the BS, because the OW loves the mm enough to be second best ! to take all the pain willingly !

 

Love or co-dependence?

 

Staying in a clandestine and painful relationship is not what I would call a healthy love. More of a symptom of a greater issue.

 

If the OW loves him, then wait until he is free to pursue an honest relationship. Love does not justify stupidity or bad decisions, or the willful causing of pain to others.

[jj003]

Originally posted by JPMorgan

Love or co-dependence?

 

Staying in a clandestine and painful relationship is not what I would call a healthy love. More of a symptom of a greater issue.

 

If the OW loves him, then wait until he is free to pursue an honest relationship. Love does not justify stupidity or bad decisions, or the willful causing of pain to others.

you got it right !! when you said "what I would call a healthy love"

Entirely your view !!!!!

others may feel different than you ! and it doesn't make them wrong and you right !

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by jj003

Don't try to mislead others, this was what newbby wrote:

 

 

mislead? I thinkt the shoe is on the other foot.

 

This is what newbby said -

 

ok i understand what you are saying bronzepen,

i dont however think it is neccesarily insecurity that questions society, i think it is quite healthy to explore whether widespread beliefs are a result of ingrained conditioning. this exploration is not always in defense and not always purely subjective."

 

I have already posted the thread so it's pointless to keep quoting.

[whichwayisup]

Originally posted by JPMorgan

 

 

Love or co-dependence?

 

Staying in a clandestine and painful relationship is not what I would call a healthy love. More of a symptom of a greater issue.

 

If the OW loves him, then wait until he is free to pursue an honest relationship. Love does not justify stupidity or bad decisions, or the willful causing of pain to others.

 

Bit of both probably and some obsessive thoughts.

 

Definately isn't a "healthy love" because it brings SO much pain and unsettling feelings. Love should not be hard.

[jj003]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

mislead? I thinkt the shoe is on the other foot.

 

This is what newbby said -

 

 

 

I have already posted the thread so it's pointless to keep quoting.

you tried to mislead again, the post you qouted was NOT her last post, the post I quoted was her last !!!!

you are very good at misleading others!!!

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by jj003

you tried to mislead again, the post you qouted was NOT her last post, the post I quoted was her last !!!!

 

and irrelevant to your misinterpretation of newbby's thoughts to my POV. (I hate speaking for other people. )

 

 

What you quoted was her question on whether I was being subjective or objective. When it came to society's view on infidelity.

 

and here was my answer -

 

Don't see how.

 

 

My view was that human nature is what causes a person to have an affair. Along the same lines as Lucrezia. Except Lucrezia believes that since it's human nature we should forgive and accept.

 

I then went on to explain how society cannot forgive and forget because it stigmatizes this "bad" human trait.

 

 

Last quote from me because the thread has been posted.

[jj003]

from newbby last post:sorry to interrupt this very entertaining arguement but bronzepen i think you will see that THIS is where you made it YOUR view, right at the beggining. You then proceeded with "society thinks..."

therefore you gave both myself and jj the very strong impression that this was indeed your opinion

 

My misinterpretation?????????????

you must be a politician !

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by jj003

My misinterpretation?????????????

you must be a politician !

 

Absolutely it's a misinterpretation.

 

Politicians usually quote out of content, which is what you did. hmmmm....

[jj003]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

Absolutely it's a misinterpretation.

 

Politicians usually quote out of content, which is what you did. hmmmm....

waste of my time !!!! others can read themselves ! let them !!!