liswil Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Originally posted by CurlyIam The main difference between the wife and the OW is that the fact that the wife actually has someone. The OW only borrows it. Whether you own or borrow a piece of cr*p, it's still a piece of cr*p........ Link to post Share on other sites
shellys-trying Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by whichwayisup I DO believe that people give in too easily and don't put 1000% in to make the marriage work. Many take the easy way out - Walk away or just go have an affair. I'm a real romantic at heart, I do believe that love can last forever - AS long as both parties are willing to keep it alive and well. ******I agree with you on this point. I am a romantic at heart myself. I guess that's what really gets hurt when an affair takes place. That's what happened when I married my H. He was my bestest friend, my heart & soul. It's really hard to take when the person you think of like that turns out to be such an a**hole. I thought he did no wrong. That veil was ripped away real quick. I guess my previous post was like a way to admonish HIM, my husband for NOT being the way I was. Really, now, he's more romantic and more giving. But he understands if I'm more reserved because he knows why I'm that way. With him before he had the A, he was the reserved one and I didn't know why. I was loving, supportive, there for him. I showed him I loved him. He had no reason to have an A. But, he did. But, an A is no reason to get out of the marriage. A person shouldn't have an A just to escape marriage and responsibility. Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by JPMorgan quote: But can you accept that according to the boundaries/values of others you are a bad person and will always been thought of that way? Just because you don't consider yourself a bad person doesn't mean others must be wrong for seeing you differently. It's irrelevant. It's not a question of whether society (another person) see's your actions as right or wrong. But how an individual perceives their actions. The individual can care less if society is right or wrong. [color=blue]It may seem irrelevant and perhaps over time it can be proven irrelevant; However, there are consequences for our actions. Not caring about said consequences does not mean they will not occur. [/color] Ah but now your imposing society's "punishment" for a breaking a law, regulation, taboo, etc.... This is how society tries to "control" unwanted human (nature) behavior. I never said there would be no consequences. A secure person can care less about consequences as well, if they didn't then they would not have broken the "rule" to begin with. quote: So if you felt that you personally could be harmed in some way that you do not control then you wouldn't be a cheater? If there were punishments for being a cheater - such as jail time, physical punishments, financial punishments, etc. that would change your decision? That's exactly what I am talking about. It's human nature to cheat. Do we all do it? No. Same way as we all do not kill but it is our nature. We are not perfect and society knows this. That is why laws, regulations, rules, taboo's are created by society to keep human nature in check. [color=blue] Cheating is human nature? I think cheating is a learned behavior. If we were animals with no concept of vows or promises; no ceremonial joining of husband and wife then perhaps it could be considered human nature. But we are not animals. We make decisions based on intellect not urges. Breaking a vow is a conscious choice. Being aroused by someone of the opposite sex (or in some cases the same sex) is a physiological reaction. Perhaps it is simply a semantic method of dealing with the victim of a cheater.[/color] Absolutely it's human nature. Having vows and marriage ceremonies proves that cheating is human nature. If not then why do humans need to create a "rule" to ensure monogamy? Remember rules are made to keep society in order and keep the "bad" human traits at bay. Yes we make decisions based on intellect but our basic human urges will "sometimes" over ride our intellect. Nature of the beast. quote: quote: What progress are you talking about? What would you like to see as the final outcome of this 'progress'? Draconian methods have proven to solve nothing. Capital punishment (stoning) against cheaters is excessive, don't you think? I call that progress. As I said, as long as the institution of marriage is around, infidelity will always be a taboo. We're human and can't help it but society will try to curb it by frowning and stigmatizing it. What I would like to see as the final outcome of this progress- If I put on my rose colored glasses, A world where there is no self interest or possesiveness. Where everyone loves each other. Oh well, we can dream.... [color=blue] This makes it sound as though your vision of a perfect future is no commitment, no marriage and no expectations from anyone. [/color] Not just anyone but anything. Link to post Share on other sites
JPMorgan Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by Bronzepen Ah but now your imposing society's "punishment" for a breaking a law, regulation, taboo, etc.... This is how society tries to "control" unwanted human (nature) behavior. I never said there would be no consequences. I'm not imposing anything. There are moral consequences; perhaps physical consequences; and spiritual consequences that have nothing to do with society. Look how many people feel bad/ are hurting because of affairs that they themselves are part of. They want to get out, but are afraid. Their hearts are breaking, they get no sympathy because the choice they made was seen as a moral outrage--not by society, but my individuals whose own moral code is disgusted by their actions. They hurt themselves too. A secure person can care less about consequences as well, if they didn't then they would not have broken the "rule" to begin with. Anyone who can go happily along in life, not caring one whit who is hurt by their actions, or what impact their choices have on anyone else is a seriously flawed person. I'm talking borderline sociopath or a complete sociopath. Absolutely it's human nature. Having vows and marriage ceremonies proves that cheating is human nature. If not then why do humans need to create a "rule" to ensure monogamy? Remember rules are made to keep society in order and keep the "bad" human traits at bay. Yes we make decisions based on intellect but our basic human urges will "sometimes" over ride our intellect. Nature of the beast. I completely disagree. Vowing to love, honor, and respect someone; stay with them and them only is not a shackle by which we imprison ourselves, but a freedom and a joy and a statement to the world. Why else would people get married? These are not rules to keep society in order. I feel really sorry for you if you believe that. Urges don't override intellect or decisions unless the person allows it. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by shellys-trying But, an A is no reason to get out of the marriage. A person shouldn't have an A just to escape marriage and responsibility. But sometimes they do because in their minds maybe it's easier to actually have that reason, rather then have the balls to say I need out and let's split up. Either way the damage will be done and alot of pain will be felt. Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by JPMorgan I'm not imposing anything. There are moral consequences; perhaps physical consequences; and spiritual consequences that have nothing to do with society. Look how many people feel bad/ are hurting because of affairs that they themselves are part of. They want to get out, but are afraid. Their hearts are breaking, they get no sympathy because the choice they made was seen as a moral outrage--not by society, but my individuals whose own moral code is disgusted by their actions. They hurt themselves too. No, they feel bad because society has made it a stigma. Moral code is another rule made by society to curb "bad" human traits. Society dictates what is a moral outrage because society consists of the majority view of individuals whose moral code is disgusted by their actions. When a person finally accepts who they are and are not controlled by any outside influenced then they have become a secure person. Anyone who can go happily along in life, not caring one whit who is hurt by their actions, or what impact their choices have on anyone else is a seriously flawed person. I'm talking borderline sociopath or a complete sociopath. Such is the nature of the beast. That's why we have rules, regulations, taboos...etc.. to try and curb this "type" of behavior. I completely disagree. Vowing to love, honor, and respect someone; stay with them and them only is not a shackle by which we imprison ourselves, but a freedom and a joy and a statement to the world. Why else would people get married? These are not rules to keep society in order. I feel really sorry for you if you believe that. Urges don't override intellect or decisions unless the person allows it. Never said it was a shackle or imprisonment. But the question remains. Why have a ceremony, proclaiming to the world that you are officially monogamous to your significant other? Why is there a need to make a statement (vow) to the world proclaiming your love for one another? Is it not to deter cheating and to say to outsiders, stay away? We have intellect to surpress our basic urges. Some people are better at controlling those urges then other. Urges override intellect all the time. If someone slaps you in the face your first urge is slap back, basic human instinct to defend one's self. If you do slap back then your urges have overriden your intellect. If you don't slap back but collect yourself and try to surmise what cause the slap then your intellect has overriden your urge. Society tries to deter violence by frowning on it and making, rules and laws. If your going to say that urges don't override intellect then you must think that homosexuality is a choice and not human nature. Link to post Share on other sites
shellys-trying Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 [quote If your going to say that urges don't override intellect then you must think that homosexuality is a choice and not human nature. Homosexuality IS a choice, not human nature. But, then, that subject is for another forum... Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by shellys-trying [quote If your going to say that urges don't override intellect then you must think that homosexuality is a choice and not human nature. Homosexuality IS a choice, not human nature. But, then, that subject is for another forum... Indeed. That's a big can of worms and don't be surprised if your labeled a homophobe. Like you said, that's a discussion for another thread. Link to post Share on other sites
shellys-trying Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Indeed. That's a big can of worms and don't be surprised if your labeled a homophobe. Like you said, that's a discussion for another thread. ****Well, my friend, homophobe or not, whatever "MAN" calls me, I'm going by the {{rules}} in the Bible. You know, the scripture Leviticus 20:13. I'm not prejudice, homophobe, whatever you want to call it. That's another rule I live by, like the "do not commit adultery". That's what's wrong with the world now. The Original Rules (i.e. 10 Commandments) aren't being obeyed. Period. **** Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by shellys-trying ****Well, my friend, homophobe or not, whatever "MAN" calls me, I'm going by the {{rules}} in the Bible. You know, the scripture Leviticus 20:13. I'm not prejudice, homophobe, whatever you want to call it. That's another rule I live by, like the "do not commit adultery". That's what's wrong with the world now. The Original Rules (i.e. 10 Commandments) aren't being obeyed. Period. **** hey, it's your life, you follow whatever rules makes you happy Good thing we all don't think alike. Link to post Share on other sites
Out-there Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Ok, I have to admit I have been reading almost all of your posts on this site but I do have a story to add. I was the OW in a 2.5 year relationship. This all started before his kids were brought into the picture. I did my best to stay away based on the fact that he was a MM. I did rather well until one night, (all it ever takes is one night). That led to a conversation that explained the situation to me, I was wrong for going along with the plan. I did go in thinking it was only for the fun. A year passed and he told me he loved me. I tried my best to never ask about the other part of his life. I didn't want to ruin what I so falsely had with him by visions of his other life. I turned sideways when the wind of shame would come near me. I did this for 2.5 years and two kids later. We finally ended it, or I should say he ended it. I couldn't give him the time anymore because I found someone I wanted to be with and that altered his plan of actions. Now I'm dealing with the pain everyday of knowing it's over.. You always think you find your sole mate but it’s never the right time – your married, he’s married, your too old, you live somewhere else, etc..… I do, I miss him and I have to put up with seeing him almost everyday. I'm basically dealing with knowing he is about to find another OW to have around and I have to know this. I'm completely blown away that the W never knew or found out! Dear lord all the tell tale signs were there; working out, different clothes, out late on Thursdays with work friends, weekend business trips and so forth! Even a tattoo and a motorcycle!! I mean come on!! It puzzles me allot to wonder how all that could go for 2.5 years. Anywho, I just had to tell you my story. Yes I do believe what comes around goes around. I'm just flustered now knowing he will do it again and nothing will be done... Link to post Share on other sites
shellys-trying Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Indeed. That's a big can of worms and don't be surprised if your labeled a homophobe. . Homophobe is drescribed in the dictionary as someone who fears or hates lesbians or gay men. I feel NO hate for them, and fear I feel FOR them that they are driving down a road not intended that they drive. There is nothing to fear or hate. The "Man Upstairs" loves them as He loves me, but He doesn't condone the way they live. That's all and I'll not say anymore but go to another forum dedicated to this discussion, if I want to say more. Link to post Share on other sites
shellys-trying Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by Bronzepen hey, it's your life, you follow whatever rules makes you happy Good thing we all don't think alike. I follow the rules that make God happy. He was nice enough to create me, so why don't I respect His wishes by obeying His rules? Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by shellys-trying I follow the rules that make God happy. He was nice enough to create me, so why don't I respect His wishes by obeying His rules? Like I said, its your life and if the rules made by your god makes you happy then go for it. Good thing we all don't think alike. Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 thou shalt be more understanding of those who make choices and lifestyle decisions that we don't understand. Link to post Share on other sites
StillHurtin Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by shellys-trying I follow the rules that make God happy. He was nice enough to create me, so why don't I respect His wishes by obeying His rules? I live w/ the same rules, that God created. shelly's trying and I believe the same things. And yes, I'm happy to follow His rules. Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by izzybelle thou shalt be more understanding of those who make choices and lifestyle decisions that we don't understand. Link to post Share on other sites
StillHurtin Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by shellys-trying Indeed. That's a big can of worms and don't be surprised if your labeled a homophobe. . Homophobe is drescribed in the dictionary as someone who fears or hates lesbians or gay men. I feel NO hate for them, and fear I feel FOR them that they are driving down a road not intended that they drive. There is nothing to fear or hate. The "Man Upstairs" loves them as He loves me, but He doesn't condone the way they live. That's all and I'll not say anymore but go to another forum dedicated to this discussion, if I want to say more. I was best friends w/ a man who is gay, even though I didn't know it until he left his W and son (right b4 he was born) for another man. I don't fear or hate him, in fact I wish so much that we could of remained friends but he moved away to another city and I haven't heard from him since he left his W and unborn child. Maybe he thinks I wouldn't agree w/ his lifestyle and that is not true. He was a wonderful person and I don't care what his sexual perferences are. But like shell said, that is for another thread. Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by StillHurtin Homophobe is drescribed in the dictionary as someone who fears or hates lesbians or gay men. I feel NO hate for them, and fear I feel FOR them that they are driving down a road not intended that they drive. There is nothing to fear or hate. The "Man Upstairs" loves them as He loves me, but He doesn't condone the way they live. That's all and I'll not say anymore but go to another forum dedicated to this discussion, if I want to say more. I was best friends w/ a man who is gay, even though I didn't know it until he left his W and son (right b4 he was born) for another man. I don't fear or hate him, in fact I wish so much that we could of remained friends but he moved away to another city and I haven't heard from him since he left his W and unborn child. Maybe he thinks I wouldn't agree w/ his lifestyle and that is not true. He was a wonderful person and I don't care what his sexual perferences are. But like shell said, that is for another thread. I just created one. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t65265/ Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 now this whole arguement makes perfect sense!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
jj003 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Originally posted by newbby now this whole arguement makes perfect sense!!!! yes.... Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Originally posted by newbby now this whole arguement makes perfect sense!!!! Tell me about it. I still don't know what she was talking about. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 sorry, i just mean the last few things some people posted made it clear that this is just a chalk and cheese situation. some people have very strange attitudes. Link to post Share on other sites
JPMorgan Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 The title of this thread is: What Other Women Have to Say to Betrayed Wives IMO the ONLY thing an OW should say to the wife of the man she was banging is "I'm so so sorry, it will never happen with me again." Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 jp, it means betrayed wives in the forum, i think. i think it all started as a result of some betrayed wives giving the ow a hard time in here constantly and jumping on them every time they say they are upset. the ow were simply saying that their pain is also valid and they should be able to come to their support forum without being jumped on. i think that the position of ow is a very misunderstood one. i think unless you have actually been involved in the situation or unless you are exceptionally intelligent and perceptive, you will not understand it. the bs in here seem to think that ow are proud of themselves or think that they did nothing wrong at all, however the majority of the ow in here are both mature and intelligent and understand where they went wrong. however the common misconception of others is that the ow plots and plans to "steal" a mm, this is where the arguments begin to happen. whilst the ow are perfectly capable of accepting responsibility there is another aspect to this that nobody ever sees from the outside, and that is the manipulation of the mm, the mm is as kkat said often a skilled con-artist, there is no doubt about it. as a result the ow is often in a great deal of pain that not many can understand, people such as the bs in here look in from the outside and think "but she must surely have known", well the situation is a complex one in many ways for the ow. i was reading a thread from a mw in here who was plotting to cheat on her h, from her point of view its as simple as, i want sex and fun so i'm going to get it. this is probably how simple it is for many mm too, although i believe there is often confusion there too. however for the ow, there is a great deal of complicated emotion, there is also a complete loss of power in the situation they are in. it is brilliant that there is somewhere they can talk about these feelings and get some support, but alot of bw in here seem to think that they shouldnt have that 'luxury'. Link to post Share on other sites
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