He told his wife he ended our affair. He lied to her again

[sandylee1]

I agree, I think some see themselves as a better version of the wife, so they will be a wonderful step mum, they will be loved by the kids, they will be the best mother ever to them, better than the miserable excuse they have for a biological mother anyway.

 

Most of what I see is the fantasy of the OW with MM. There is very little mention of the kids...apart from being the reason he can't leave or that his wife won't let him see them.

 

No thought about how the kids will cope with anything.

Edited March 7, 2016 by sandylee1
incomplete

[sandylee1]

. It is much easier to keep what one has than to groom your successor OW. They aren't uncommon but they usually don't announce their availability to prowling MM. Recall how long probably took the two of you to enter into a full blown affair. Didn't he have to catch your interest and romance you awhile? To start with another takes a lot of work.

 

 

Your whole post is very good.... but the bit above really nails it.

Trying to lure another woman into having an affair isn't easy... it's against what most would want to be a part of.....so letting the one you have go completely isn't easy.

 

Kind of like 'better the devil you know'.

 

Having supported a few WHs that is a common theme. Even when the marriage isn't fulfilling they will not divorce. Even where there have been grown up kids and I've tried to say. .. just divorce instead of cheating. The response is that he isn't loosing half his money.

 

In the mind of these men.. NO WOMAN is worth loosing the money.... but they can't live without the sex from the OW....so they carry on cheating and become great at hiding it.

 

It's self preservation to lie about the A ending.. but any BS will not be comfortable with their spouse continuing to work with the AP and their healing is unlikely to make much progress.

 

She'll be urging him to apply for new jobs and a remorseful spouse would do this.

 

I might be mixing threads up... but if this is the one with the mean, cold and boring wife...my question would be.... what made her that way.. because let's hope he had a better judge of character and if she's changed why has she changed..... because you can bet your bottom dollar he isn't the perfect husband. You know he's not.

[Ms. Faust]

Sorry, but that is absolutely not Hummingbird's problem - it's his! As their parent *he* should have thought of that, not her. Just as he should have considered his BW, his reputational damage seducing a direct line report, his career. It is not her duty to look out for him and his responsibilities, it's his. He is not looking out for her, so why should she put herself aside and prioritise him? That makes everyone looking out for him, and no one for her? Bollocks to that!

 

In the long run, I agree with that. It is absolutely his responsibility, and not hers, to think of the children. And if I was in the same position, as a single OW, I would more than likely feel the same way as she does. And I do think that she does need to put herself first.

 

I should have clarified my point more, but hem hawed around: I think her statement of him being the one who should leave the job exemplifies that no one takes into consideration the children, whether it is her, and mostly especially not him. No, she has no obligation to the kids, at all, but one would think that the thought of them, or some sort of compassion would come through... but the children, are almost always an after thought, if any thought at all, in these situations.

 

Anyway, I don't think that she is mentally anywhere near him losing his job because of this, OR reporting it. She's still in the affair!

 

But I absolutely agree... he is the culprit in this, and he should be the one who suffers in the end. His wife and kids are the disposable ones (made so by him, more than anyone else).

[sandylee1]

, but one would think that the thought of them, or some sort of compassion would come through... but the children, are almost always an after thought, if any thought at all, in these situations.

 

.

 

It would be nice wouldn't it...... but in reality I think that if there was any compassion .... The affair would never have happened in the first place.

 

Compassion tends to come for some after A LOT of self analysis and therapy. For others.... it never comes at all.

 

I honestly don't expect compassion from the majority of APs....

 

But you're right... in this situstion MM have the ultimate responsibility (not absolving the AP) for keeping their family safe from a third party.

[heartwhole]

Not to make this about me, but in my case, the OW's goal was to marry my husband and become my kids' step-mom. He had never had an affair before and didn't go looking for one; she propositioned him. So her goal was split up our family and have our kids only see each parent for part of the time. I'm sure it seemed all roses and sunshine when she thought about it -- her brother had met a woman who was separated from her husband, and now they're married and raising her kids with one of their own -- and she didn't think about the reality of my life being affected or more importantly, my children's. Because all she had to go on was the fact that my WH was super excited by her falling in love with him. He never future faked her. I read the emails, he was very clear about how that ship had sailed and he wouldn't be a part-time dad like his brother. But then all his actions said, "I wish we could have a future together!" Eventually he came to believe that I hated him and thought there was a good chance I'd leave on my own. Problem solved, right?

 

So I don't blame her. Don't get me wrong; I don't like her (I've never met her but I think I'm qualified to make this judgment). I don't think she would have been a good step-mother for my children because I question her judgment and values. But I don't hold her personally responsible for looking out for me. That's unfair. She's personally responsible for screwing up her own life, and for claiming to care about my husband but then being party to his obviously screwing up his own life too. And they are both responsible for participating in sex when a third party (me) was exposed without her knowledge or consent. But the knowledge and consent part is all on my husband.

 

It's one thing to say, hey, it's consensual sex, he's obviously unhappy at home, and then to fall in love little by little. It's another to say, hey, I know you're married but I think you're my soul mate! Could you swap out your wife and we'll live happily ever after? In the latter case the AP should have worried about the well-being of the people she supposedly wanted to make her forever family. In the former she could reasonably think, if he's not having sex with me, it'll be someone else; the family is not my problem.

[elaine567]

I have a feeling that many single OWs enter the relationship as they would any other and do not consider the ramifications too deeply.

All that matters is the "bond", man and woman.

He loves me, he doesn't love me, is all and everything else is secondary and "fixable".

Out of sight, out of mind - faceless people who mean nothing or who are dehumanised or denigrated. Mere obstacles in the way of true happiness.

 

"He loves ME", so all else will get sorted out in time.

[lemondrop21]

I agree, I think some see themselves as a better version of the wife, so they will be a wonderful step mum, they will be loved by the kids, they will be the best mother ever to them, better than the miserable excuse they have for a biological mother anyway.

 

Actually, if you read these boards, you'll see that *many* OW (spurred on by their MMs) fantasise about exactly these things. He MM sees his life continuing as before, simply erasing the inconvenient BW and replacing her with the OW, and encourages the OW to share those fantasies. It's part of "future faking" which some MM do.

 

I have a feeling that many single OWs enter the relationship as they would any other and do not consider the ramifications too deeply.

All that matters is the "bond", man and woman.

He loves me, he doesn't love me, is all and everything else is secondary and "fixable".

Out of sight, out of mind - faceless people who mean nothing or who are dehumanised or denigrated. Mere obstacles in the way of true happiness.

 

"He loves ME", so all else will get sorted out in time.

 

What cocorico said above is what my xMM did at the beginning of the A. He was so wrapped up in the delusion and so convinced that his marriage was dead, that he would tell me that the kids would be okay because divorce would be better than for them to grow up with such tension between parents.

 

It upset me so much that in the first few days of the A, I remember saying in an almost rage-filled tone, "I grew up with a broken family and I will not be a part of doing that to an innocent child," and then I hung up the phone in disgust.

 

Plenty of OW do fret about the kids, and some MMs do their best to convince the OWs (and themselves) that the kids will come out relatively unscathed if the marriage ends. I worried constantly during the A about what would happen to the kids if it was discovered, and this is now one of the many reasons I'm glad the A is over, and sorry that it ever happened.

 

I'm not saying that preserving the marriage is always the best option - sometimes divorce is for the better - but of course kids will always be impacted by such upheaval.

 

Oh, and the "being a wonderful stepmom" thing - if I ever were to end up with a divorced man (I won't end up with xMM) I would not just insert myself in his kids' lives - I wouldn't even meet them for a good long time. And I certainly wouldn't assume my ability to be a wonderful stepparent or anywhere near as good a parent as their bio mom, nor would that be my role to play. This has always been my stance even when I was an OW.

Edited March 7, 2016 by lemondrop21

[Sub]

I would be careful about going to HR about the A. It's not like that doesn't carry a host of risks for you as well. And unfortunately, there are double-standards when it comes to that sort of thing in the workplace, depending on what each of your positions is.

[elaine567]

I would be careful about going to HR about the A. It's not like that doesn't carry a host of risks for you as well. And unfortunately, there are double-standards when it comes to that sort of thing in the workplace, depending on what each of your positions is.

 

That was my first thought too.

[velvette]

Sorry, but that is absolutely not Hummingbird's problem - it's his! As their parent *he* should have thought of that, not her. Just as he should have considered his BW, his reputational damage seducing a direct line report, his career. It is not her duty to look out for him and his responsibilities, it's his. He is not looking out for her, so why should she put herself aside and prioritise him? That makes everyone looking out for him, and no one for her? Bollocks to that!

 

Sorry Hummingbird, ignore the attempts to try to make this all your problem, look after yourself here. In fact, I'd go further, and speak to your HR people and let them know about the A, and about him hassling you at work. Have him transferred elsewhere, or have him cautioned to leave you alone if that's not possible. You are only responsible for your side of this, not for his - and as your (former) manager, he needs to take responsibility for his own actions.

 

 

Very bad advice. Tell him you are done, to leave you alone, and that if he continues to bother you, you will go to HR. That should be your last resort.

 

 

There's nothing HR or managers hate more than having to clean up consensual affairs gone bad in the workplace. Sure, he will face whatever consequences they deem necessary to protect themselves from a sexual harassment claim. But, you will also be deemed a troublemaker with incredibly bad judgement for getting involved with him.

 

 

As it is, probably way more people than you realize either suspect or know about this affair. Shut it down and make it clear to him you are done before it all blows up in both your faces.

[whichwayisup]

Very bad advice. Tell him you are done, to leave you alone, and that if he continues to bother you, you will go to HR. That should be your last resort.

 

 

There's nothing HR or managers hate more than having to clean up consensual affairs gone bad in the workplace. Sure, he will face whatever consequences they deem necessary to protect themselves from a sexual harassment claim. But, you will also be deemed a troublemaker with incredibly bad judgement for getting involved with him.

 

 

As it is, probably way more people than you realize either suspect or know about this affair. Shut it down and make it clear to him you are done before it all blows up in both your faces.

 

Bolded. I agree. It's one thing if he was hitting on you and you weren't interested, talking to HR and sorting it out...It's another to run to HR after the A ends and put all the blame exMM/boss in hopes he'll be fired.

 

Some companies have a strict no dating policy, especially involving employer's dating their employees. They both are equally at fault here and if reputations are ruined, it's their own doing.

 

Chances are most know or suspected about the A. People aren't stupid and can pick up on energy and dynamics.

[cocorico]

Very bad advice. Tell him you are done, to leave you alone, and that if he continues to bother you, you will go to HR. That should be your last resort.

 

 

There's nothing HR or managers hate more than having to clean up consensual affairs gone bad in the workplace. Sure, he will face whatever consequences they deem necessary to protect themselves from a sexual harassment claim. But, you will also be deemed a troublemaker with incredibly bad judgement for getting involved with him.

 

 

As it is, probably way more people than you realize either suspect or know about this affair. Shut it down and make it clear to him you are done before it all blows up in both your faces.

 

This will depend on where you work, and what the policies are. I know the policies at my organisation are clear - any R between colleagues or fellow employees is to be reported to the lowest common line manager or to HR; if line reporting is involved, the senior person is held more responsible and sanctioned if required.

[sandylee1]

Going to HR seems like you are a helpless victim. You weren't forced into the affair and quite frankly unless it impacted on work..HR will not be interested unless it's against company policy to have a relationship with a subordinate.

 

Even then it's not as if the OP will look angelic and after having an affair with a MM. Women always look worse in affairs ..... as we're expected to have better morals than that.

[Sub]

This will depend on where you work, and what the policies are. I know the policies at my organisation are clear - any R between colleagues or fellow employees is to be reported to the lowest common line manager or to HR; if line reporting is involved, the senior person is held more responsible and sanctioned if required.

 

The risks go beyond this, though. Even if it goes down like that, there are the inevitable "social" consequences involved. Once everybody hears he got the axe - or a more severe punishment - for a consensual A, it won't be a comfortable place for her to work. At the very least, some of that respect that she's earned from her peers will deteriorate, IMO.

[Sassy Girl]

I find it a little incredulous that people insert themselves into someone's marriage and family, then when it ends, complain about how it's impacting their workplace or career. Seriously?

[Sassy Girl]

The risks go beyond this, though. Even if it goes down like that, there are the inevitable "social" consequences involved. Once everybody hears he got the axe - or a more severe punishment - for a consensual A, it won't be a comfortable place for her to work. At the very least, some of that respect that she's earned from her peers will deteriorate, IMO.

 

Not to mention, women always get the short end of the stick when it comes to workplace affairs. Especially single OW.

[sandylee1]

I agree with Sassy... All was fine and dandy when you guys were having secret liason...but because he decides he's staying with his wife ...here comes the suggestion of tell HR.

 

HR have better things to do than to get involved in people's personal sexual affairs.

 

It's like people tell their spouse agree dday to ask not to work with the AP because they want to maintain NC. I say leave the job if you want NC. it's not HRs role to play police with people sneaking around when they are engaging in affairs.

[velvette]

This will depend on where you work, and what the policies are. I know the policies at my organisation are clear - any R between colleagues or fellow employees is to be reported to the lowest common line manager or to HR; if line reporting is involved, the senior person is held more responsible and sanctioned if required.

 

 

In the US, the policies of most large companies and the small ones that know what they are doing are the same.

 

 

A R between a manager and a subordinate, creates an automatic presumption of a quid pro quo sexual harassment case because of the power imbalance. That's the law; its not a policy, but it is why these R are forbidden. The assumption is that it creates an atmosphere where the subordinate is compelled to exchange sexual favors for favoritism, special treatment or just to keep their job. Doesn't matter if that's true or not.

 

 

If the company finds out they will move to protect themselves from this potential sexual harassment lawsuit. At a minimum, they will move one of the employees, usually the supervisor, so the employee cant claim they have been harmed. Then they will take action against the supervisor depending on their own policy and other mitigating factors.......like whether its happened before, how valuable the employee is to them, etc.

 

 

Nothing will happen to the subordinate according to written policy because they don't want to risk angering the subordinate to the point of filing a formal complaint.

 

 

But.........every company has unwritten/unspoken policies. The subordinate will not escape those if this was a consensual A. She will be deemed a problem child with poor judgement. Her reputation will be tarnished. She will not be held blameless. She will be talked about. She may or may not lose future opportunities/promotions because managers wont want to deal with her. And, the worst part is she will never know if this was the reason when things don't go well at work, so there will be no way to defend against it.

 

 

That's how it works. Seen it many times as an excutive manager with over 25 years experience and having dealt with many real harassment cases as well as potential ones created by inappropriate consensual relationships in the workplace whether they were regular R or A.

[Sassy Girl]

Both my parents had workplace affairs. As did my sister.

 

My father and his MOW both got fired when the BS came into their workplace and punched my father. The boss didn't want the drama around his business.

 

My sister worked in a large but close knit industry, as did her AP and BS. One the affair was mad public my sister didn't get her contract renewed, although it had been twice before. Also, her BS was well liked and respected in the industry by some very senior people. My sister has struggled finding employment ever since and is unemployed right now. She even moved 2000km away and her reputation still preceded her. And this is a pretty liberal country. There are no official company policies about workplace relationship, but the stigma follows her everywhere she goes.

 

There's a saying about not crapping where you eat. I've been an OW... But there's no chance in hell id ever stake my career, my livelihood or professional reputation on a romp with a MM. And now it's all done and dusted we are supposed to believe that your career is so important to you? Was it important when you were running around wth a married man on company time? Or did you willingly trade that career out for a relationship with a MM? If you go there, you have to be prepared for the consequences.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Sassy Girl

[georgia girl]

In the US, the policies of most large companies and the small ones that know what they are doing are the same.

 

 

A R between a manager and a subordinate, creates an automatic presumption of a quid pro quo sexual harassment case because of the power imbalance. That's the law; its not a policy, but it is why these R are forbidden. The assumption is that it creates an atmosphere where the subordinate is compelled to exchange sexual favors for favoritism, special treatment or just to keep their job. Doesn't matter if that's true or not.

 

 

If the company finds out they will move to protect themselves from this potential sexual harassment lawsuit. At a minimum, they will move one of the employees, usually the supervisor, so the employee cant claim they have been harmed. Then they will take action against the supervisor depending on their own policy and other mitigating factors.......like whether its happened before, how valuable the employee is to them, etc.

 

 

Nothing will happen to the subordinate according to written policy because they don't want to risk angering the subordinate to the point of filing a formal complaint.

 

 

But.........every company has unwritten/unspoken policies. The subordinate will not escape those if this was a consensual A. She will be deemed a problem child with poor judgement. Her reputation will be tarnished. She will not be held blameless. She will be talked about. She may or may not lose future opportunities/promotions because managers wont want to deal with her. And, the worst part is she will never know if this was the reason when things don't go well at work, so there will be no way to defend against it.

 

 

That's how it works. Seen it many times as an excutive manager with over 25 years experience and having dealt with many real harassment cases as well as potential ones created by inappropriate consensual relationships in the workplace whether they were regular R or A.

 

Velvette is correct. The presumption is quid pro quo sexual harassment. If the affair began when he was her supervisor, he would be reprimanded and likely be transferred or moved. Because the subordinate participated in a consensual A, it would severely curtail opportunities for advancement where I work. Finally and likely most damaging to everyone, folks find out. I swear it always seems like the two parties share their secret with a "trusted" friend at work because they need a sounding board to reflect on what's happened in the workplace. However it happens, I know that while I have never indulged a workplace reprimand, it isn't long until the rumor mill gets back to me that "so-and-so was punished because..." I am always just a little floored by the whole thing and how amazingly accurate it is. My theory is the "trusted" friend tells a friend who tells a friend... . Once it gets out, folks look at both people differently. People's respect that you thought you had diminishes, the workplace gets uncomfortable. Hence my earlier advice about looking for another job.

 

OP, it doesn't ALWAYS work out this way, but it has real potential to. If I were, I would start exploring options. Better to get yourself prepared and not need it then get caught unprepared.

[anika99]

Sorry, but that is absolutely not Hummingbird's problem - it's his! As their parent *he* should have thought of that, not her. Just as he should have considered his BW, his reputational damage seducing a direct line report, his career. It is not her duty to look out for him and his responsibilities, it's his. He is not looking out for her, so why should she put herself aside and prioritise him? That makes everyone looking out for him, and no one for her? Bollocks to that!

 

Sorry Hummingbird, ignore the attempts to try to make this all your problem, look after yourself here. In fact, I'd go further, and speak to your HR people and let them know about the A, and about him hassling you at work. Have him transferred elsewhere, or have him cautioned to leave you alone if that's not possible. You are only responsible for your side of this, not for his - and as your (former) manager, he needs to take responsibility for his own actions.

 

Why on earth would she out the affair or herself as an OW at work when she doesn't have to? Sure she might be able to get the MM moved or reprimanded but she will also damage her own reputation. Don't do that OP.

[dreamingoftigers]

You are right. About it all. Man he sure is good at it!!!! I never asked him to leave, never brought it up. He started it from our first week. Said I love you before we even kissed. That alone should have been a red flag for me. I have flipped on and off from being mad at him to feeling sorry for him living in a loveless marriage. I am stopping that today. He is choosing to be there. People get divorced all the time. He would have left before he got caught if he loved me. I have spoiled him and stroked his ego long enough. If I remain in this I have no one to blame but myself.

 

Truly honestly, these men sound like cardboard cutouts. For years in this board I've said "I think there's only ONE MM in the world and he gets around A LOT. Because he's always uses the same lies, lines and excuses. And he never LEAVES. Unless it's for a couple weeks, then he goes back to his wife begging for another chance."

 

In relationships, everyone has their little levers that 'pull' them closer to their partners.

 

With these guys, they use:

 

1. Charm: they flatter you. 'Oh you are so wonderful. Just the best!"

 

2. Self-pity: "Oh I have such an undeservedly rough time at home. I try and try and no one cares."

 

And when that fails,

 

3. Rage: "I thought you of all people understood! You are just as demanding as SHE is!"

 

Sometimes the more weepy, avoidant MM don't do rage with their OW. But mostly the charm/self-pity thing.

 

Often it's a combo: "oh you understand me so much better than my wife."

 

See how that's both charm (flattery) and self-pity?

 

Personally, a lot of OW seem drawn in by that. But talk like that makes me want to puke my guts out. Because for decades I saw my mother basically worship the ground my father walked on while he disrespected her and later cheated. He wasn't "unhappy at home." He was (and still is) ridiculously needy. And demanding. And whatever my mother did still wasn't enough. So yeah, the self-pity aspect I see in some men is a huge red banner. It tells me these men are needy in some way that they take no responsibility for.

[ladydesigner]

These MM are so similar, thats its sometimes like they're all operating from the same script.

 

Is there a school somewhere where they all go to learn their trade?

 

To be honest, I think that they are all essentially failed men.

 

Not fit to be with anyone.

 

This... this right here^ for the win!

[S2B]

My question is:

 

Why do YOU want to stay with a known liar?

[ladydesigner]

My question is:

 

Why do YOU want to stay with a known liar?

 

This is a great question for most AP's. The AP knows the married partner is a liar. What makes that appealing when it should really be a red flag?

 

I get the whole ego boost thing and I have been a fMOW in my past, but these things should be red flags no?