Infidelity: which is the lesser of the two evil?

[burnt]

MM #1: MM recognizes he's bored, and wants to add some heat and spice which he is not getting form his spouse. He chooses to deliberately seek out and find someone to have an affair with who is also equally interested in adultery. He clearly states his position that all he wants is a bit of fun on the side, but he loves his wife. Whether it's EA or PA, he can drop his affair partner anytime he wants, but chooses to carry on. He does not feel any emotional attachment to the OW.

 

MM #2: MM is bored. He does not seek out to have an affair. Finds himself feeling attracted to someone, starts chatting, then starts developing strong emotions. He finds himself sinking and getting more and more involved with OW, which turns into a full blown affair. By the time he realizes he's cheating, he tries to stop, but he can't emotionally detach from the OW. He deals with confusion, self-hate, guilt--an entire emotional turmoil.

He tries to end it, but fails each time.

 

#1: Cheated. Intentionally planned to cheat, but no emotional attachment.

#2: Cheated. Didn't intend to cheat, but developed emotional attachment.

Of course, "NO cheating" would be the right moral thing, but given ONLY these two wrong options:

 

If you are/were WS,

if you could rewrite history and "choose" to be one of these two categories, which would you choose? What would be less painful for you?

 

If you are/were BS:

if you could rewrite your WS's history, which would you rather have?

which category would be less painful for you?

 

If you are/were OW/OM:

if you could rewrite history, which MM would you prefer? Which would be less painful for you?

Edited March 9, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language ~T

[d0nnivain]

I don't put much stock in EAs & could get past one no problem. PA's are a different story. Not much wiggle room. Also intent means something to me. The deliberate choice to cheat is a problem. Failing to recognize you are on a slippery slope is also a problem but it's less intentional, imo.

[joystickd]

What about a scenario with MW?

[mikeylo]

Emotional attachment is worse to cheat on. It is involvement of a complete person -- all the innermost feelings, emotions , likes, dislikes, fears, happiness, creating memories, living / sharing dreams. Betrayal of these would be worse to deal with. It's these that bond a couple. Absence of these will leave each empty and dissatisfied. While the WS gets it outside, the BS suffers.

Physical is comparatively easier. It's a deed done and dusted. Both go and live their lives. Many men especially, can have PAs without any emotions involved.

 

Never been involved in any affair , neither my wife. Just my personal view.

[burnt]

What about a scenario with MW?

 

Sorry…

You'r right. I meant MM/MW. The same theory should apply for either gender.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.

[waterwoman]

"#2: Cheated. Didn't intend to cheat, but developed emotional attachment."

 

This is worse IMO.

[OneLov]

I think it depends on the POV of the person you are asking. If it's the WS, I would assume most would say situation No. 2. If you ask a BS, he/she would say all of the above.

 

Serial cheaters excluded, do you think there is a significant number of MM who purposefully, willfully, and deliberately seek out an affair? I always thought affairs to primarily be opportunistic.

[Gloria25]

At first I would've answered this by calling MM#1 a dog, and MM#2, a victim trapped in a bad marriage.

 

Nope, not anymore...both are equally distasteful.

 

After my recent experience with a MM, I come to find that these guys are all the same. They wanna play on the side (physical and/or emotional).

 

They won't have the stones to fix whatever is wrong in their marriage/RL and/or themselves. They take the cowardly and easy route to "creep" (sneak) around.

 

Then, when they get their fill from the affair, they go running back to wifey and hide behind her like an errant child. And, they come out winning cuz more than likely wifey is gonna take him back cuz it's gonna cost more to pursue a divorce and/or wifey has to do it for her low esteem (ie some feeling of superiority over the OW, when fact is he came slithering back to "home base".

 

A "man" if unhappy in his marriage would address the issues with wife, work on it, and if doesn't work - make a decision to accept his marriage/situation "as is" or file for divorce. (MM#2)

 

A "man" is NOT a man if he constantly needs to pursue female attention. If he needs constant reassure by chasing women, then go seek counseling/therapy to become a better man/person (MM#1).

 

In my situation I met dude before he married. Looks like he jumped and rushed to marry out of fear of being alone - although he may have had reservations about her. Long story short, goes to prove that these guys aren't "victims". They make conscious decisions to marry and then wanna mes around.

 

And, he has no courage/strength to be on his own, so with me he has this weird quasi-EA (that almost turned physical) and runs and hides under her fat rolls like a kid when it suits him. I suspect she knows he has a wandering eye, but she also knows he doesn't have the stones to leave her and she doesn't have anywhere to go herself. So, he plays with me, goes on social media and seeks more female "attention", plays this "game", and could care less cuz he doesn't see any harm/issues in his conduct - despite me expressing the pain it caused me.

 

Again, both scenarios you listed are equally distasteful. No "man" conducts himself in such a manner.

[purplesorrow]

At first I would've answered this by calling MM#1 a dog, and MM#2, a victim trapped in a bad marriage.

 

Nope, not anymore...both are equally distasteful.

 

After my recent experience with a MM, I come to find that these guys are all the same. They wanna play on the side (physical and/or emotional).

 

They won't have the stones to fix whatever is wrong in their marriage/RL and/or themselves. They take the cowardly and easy route to "creep" (sneak) around.

 

Then, when they get their fill from the affair, they go running back to wifey and hide behind her like an errant child. And, they come out winning cuz more than likely wifey is gonna take him back cuz it's gonna cost more to pursue a divorce and/or wifey has to do it for her low esteem (ie some feeling of superiority over the OW, when fact is he came slithering back to "home base".

 

A "man" if unhappy in his marriage would address the issues with wife, work on it, and if doesn't work - make a decision to accept his marriage/situation "as is" or file for divorce. (MM#2)

 

A "man" is NOT a man if he constantly needs to pursue female attention. If he needs constant reassure by chasing women, then go seek counseling/therapy to become a better man/person (MM#1).

 

In my situation I met dude before he married. Looks like he jumped and rushed to marry out of fear of being alone - although he may have had reservations about her. Long story short, goes to prove that these guys aren't "victims". They make conscious decisions to marry and then wanna mes around.

 

And, he has no courage/strength to be on his own, so with me he has this weird quasi-EA (that almost turned physical) and runs and hides under her fat rolls like a kid when it suits him. I suspect she knows he has a wandering eye, but she also knows he doesn't have the stones to leave her and she doesn't have anywhere to go herself. So, he plays with me, goes on social media and seeks more female "attention", plays this "game", and could care less cuz he doesn't see any harm/issues in his conduct - despite me expressing the pain it caused me.

 

Again, both scenarios you listed are equally distasteful. No "man" conducts himself in such a manner.

 

What draws you to this low self-esteemed fat woman's weak willed husband?

[burnt]

"#2: Cheated. Didn't intend to cheat, but developed emotional attachment."

 

This is worse IMO.

 

I agree.

My thoughts on it:

 

#1:

If you're WS, #1 is better for you, since you have lesser guilt to deal with. You have wife at home for 'life' and OW for extra fun on side. Little emotional conflict. When you have had enough, you can cut the OW off anytime you choose. You saw the OW just as a "sex object", not a human being.

 

If you are BS: #1 is better (marginally). I imagine form the BS's point of view to have a husband who is emotionally connected with another woman is devastatingly painful. So husband having an OW JUST for sex maybe less painful.

 

If you are OW/OM: #1 is still better, because then you clearly willfully engaged with such a man--at least there was a clear understanding of the nature of the relationship.

 

#2:

If you're WS: during the affair you are fully emotionally connected with TWO women and that's horrible to deal with. After the affair, you still battle with emotionally detaching. That's an awful inner battle. You saw the OW as a woman with feelings and emotions--you saw her as a human being, not a sex toy.

 

If you're BS: It's just awful period to know your WS really connected with this OW and you are not just physically betrayed but emotionally violated.

 

If you're OM/OW: you feel like your AP really cared because of the emotional attachment and therefore it's harder to let go after he dumps you.

 

So, here's my main thought:

 

So, it's better to INTEND to cheat willfully

than not intend and fall emotionally?

 

So if a man plans, schemes, plots, acts, WILLFULLY to do wrong,

the outcome is better.

 

I am finding the irony in this very hard to accept. I guess that's why I'm posting this thread.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I think #2 is probably worse but I wouldn't stay in either case, I don't believe. I've never experienced it though and I know for sure that sometimes we act a lot different than we think we will when actually faced with things.

[purplesorrow]

Both are equal to me as a bw and would result in the same outcome. At some point in both scenarios the choice to cheat was made. Relationships don't just happen.

[jenkins95]

Good little thought experiment burnt!

 

I fit exactly into your description of MM # 2. Another regular MM poster on here, Liam1, would appear to fit exactly into your description of MM # 1.

 

From seeing many of Liam's recent posts, I can see that he struggled much less at the end of the affair than I did. Yes, like me, he caused great upset to his W and no doubt incurred her wrath and witnessed the full horror of her pain, but in his own mind, his experience made him even more sure of what a wonderful woman his wife is and how well they are suited. Despite the hurt, it has strengthened the perception of his wife and his marriage in his own mind - fair description, Liam?

 

For me, having developed an emotional bond to OW, the aftermath of the A was much more difficult. I was lost and had no idea how best to proceed. I was confused, weak and vulnerable and I wasn't certain about anything. My wife was amazing in giving me another chance and I recommitted myself to my marriage, but I have to say that this was through 'using my head instead of my heart' and required a lot of hand-holding and practical advice on here to really get into that head space. I have to admit that I didn't have Liam's certainty that I was doing the right thing in reconciling, but I really wanted to give it a chance, with so much at stake. Three months into NC, we are still at the beginning of recovery, but I am feeling much better and my marriage is returning to what it should be. I did take the right path and I'm so glad that my wife gave me that opportunity and that I was resolute enough to plug my brain in and listen to it.

 

So yes, I am now in a similar place to Liam regarding my marriage (well, 90% of the way to that point perhaps), but getting there was a lot rockier, bumpier road than Liam's. I still have lingering regrets for hurting the OW, which Liam doesn't.

 

Personally I would rather jump off a cliff than have another affair, but if I did, it would definitely be as MM # 1.

 

Interesting thread!

Edited March 9, 2016 by jenkins95

[burnt]

I fit exactly into your description of MM # 2. Another regular MM poster on here, Liam1, would appear to fit exactly into your description of MM # 1.

 

Thank you for your response Jenkins.

Incidentally, it was a combination of your posts and Liam's posts in the last couple of weeks and my own struggle to "find closure" in my own affair that has brought to me ask this question.

 

I so desperately and painfully wish now my xMM fit into this MM#1 pattern. I wish he upfront stated to me that he was searching for someone to have casual sex with. If I had heard of a proposal as despicable as that, I would have run in the other direction in disgust.

 

My xMM and I started off as friends--or so he appeared to be--so was my understanding. The way things evolved and the way the emotions got tangled up, has left me stranded in the middle of nowhere--all I can do is just ask

 

why, why, why?

not a fun place to be.

[RecentChange]

Yeah its really an individual thing - isn't it?

 

Short answer, I find #2 worse.

 

I have been the "wandering spouse" and I have been cheated on.

 

For ME, an emotional affair is harder pill to swallow. For me, "sex" can be just sex, just a physical thing, a step up from a full body massage, like someone else said, the affair partner just becomes a sex object.

 

But an emotional affair? Sharing your heart, hopes, dreams, desires and secrets with another person? I find those things more special, and guarded than sex.

 

I *think* my partner would agree. I had a "sex only" type affair, and on D day he REALLY wanted to know if I *cared* for, or god forbid loved the other man - and I could honestly say, no, not at all, that he didn't matter to me, it was.... just some selfish sex. I could (and did) immediately drop him.

 

Now, years ago when I found out about his affair, it was the "I wish you were here... I really miss you... I have been thinking about you" texts etc that I found crushing. I really didn't care whatever physical things they did, it was the fact he was sharing his heart with someone else. And the continuing contact after D day? And her telling me that he is having a hard time right now so they need to talk? Ugh.

 

Differences in our stories than the examples - mine was the chatting and slow lead up to - an agreement of a strictly physical affair (literally discussed keeping emotions out of it) - and his started as a brief physical affair which turned emotional.

[burnt]

Both are equal to me as a bw and would result in the same outcome. At some point in both scenarios the choice to cheat was made. Relationships don't just happen.

 

Would it be? Be equal?

As I stated in my original post, from the point of view of BW, both scenario is awful, but EQUAL? I'm having a hard time seeing that.

 

I'm asking here, since Jenkins pointed out, and as I have just noted in my last post,

 

Liam's posts seem to fit into MM#1, and Jenkins's fit into MM#2.

 

I get the feel that there are many people who react very strongly to Jenkin's posts about still having some residula emotional attachments for his xOW, whereas, not for Liam's post.

 

Almost as if Liam's "hate" and disgust for his xOW somehow makes his love for his wife more "pure".

 

So, purplesorrow, my question to you is, hypothetically, which option would you find to be LESS painful -- to be in the wife's position of someone like Liam or to be in the wife's position of someone like Jenkins--just to make it concrete.

 

I'm sorry Liam and Jenkins if me making these references are being offensive--I'm trying to find a way to differentiate between the two categories.

 

Also, sorry purple sorrow, if my question is offensive to you.

[purplesorrow]

Would it be? Be equal?

As I stated in my original post, from the point of view of BW, both scenario is awful, but EQUAL? I'm having a hard time seeing that.

 

I'm asking here, since Jenkins pointed out, and as I have just noted in my last post,

 

Liam's posts seem to fit into MM#1, and Jenkins's fit into MM#2.

 

I get the feel that there are many people who react very strongly to Jenkin's posts about still having some residula emotional attachments for his xOW, whereas, not for Liam's post.

 

Almost as if Liam's "hate" and disgust for his xOW somehow makes his love for his wife more "pure".

 

So, purplesorrow, my question to you is, hypothetically, which option would you find to be LESS painful -- to be in the wife's position of someone like Liam or to be in the wife's position of someone like Jenkins--just to make it concrete.

 

I'm sorry Liam and Jenkins if me making these references are being offensive--I'm trying to find a way to differentiate between the two categories.

 

Also, sorry purple sorrow, if my question is offensive to you.

 

There is no less painful here for me. In both situations, cheating could have been avoided had the mm wanted to be avoided. There is no falling into it unknowingly. If one is doing things that create a relationship or bond with someone like texting, calling spending time those are all choices. It didn't just happen. In both scenarios the mm was lax in boundaries. It made no difference to me how he ended up cheating, just that he did. At a point, both be came planned.

[Gloria25]

Well, I can see where emotional connection with an OW/OM would be more devastating....

 

And yes, for some people it is just a purely physical release...

 

But, if I really care about someone, even if they "just had sex" with someone else, it would hurt me cuz regardless of how he compartmentalized it, he was sharing what for me was more than just sex cuz when I'm having sex with him, it's me "connecting" with him.

 

My neighbor?

 

He had/has an extreme form of "mirroring" that to this day I don't know if he did it with intent to hurt me...Anywho, one time I posted online how my last FWB and I kissed in public and how he couldn't keep his hands off of me. Well, neighbor, shortly after my post makes a grand gesture to kiss his wife outside - knowing that I would see it. Well, it hurt me. It hurt me to see a guy I was into kissing someone else. So, regardless if the person says "It was only "sex", a "kiss", if I'm into the guy, it means a freakin' a lot to me.

[purplesorrow]

Needed to add, how he felt about his ow had no bearing on what I though he felt about me. If he loved me truly, he wouldn't have cheated.

[minimariah]

GREAT thread, burnt!

 

 

So, it's better to INTEND to cheat willfully than not intend and fall emotionally?

 

depends on the result -- but at the end of the day... those are two sides of the very same coin. they might SEEM different and one certainly SOUNDS better but... they aren't. intentions don't matter - only the result does and both scenarios end up pretty much the same, no? besides... you do know the old saying -- the road to hell is paved with good intentions?

 

at one point... every type of cheating becomes willful. sure, you can fall in love accidentally. imagine this scenario - you have a good marriage, happy even. you work 12 hours a day with a colleague and you often talk about things NOT related to work... you get to know them. so you start going to lunch together and taking breaks together and before you know it -- you're spending more time talking and bonding with your colleague than you do with your own spouse. and suddenly; you wake up one day and you realize you're in love. OR you get really drunk at some kind of office party, start dancing with said colleague, kiss them and BOOM. you realize you're feeling these... weird feelings that you really have no business feeling. that would be MM #2.

 

HOWEVER -- there is always that one last moment... final moment when you're standing right in front of the line and you have this choice... and MM decides to cross it. he is usually past that point of caring. THAT is the moment when #1 & #2 eventually become the same story -- the affair is ON.

 

do intentions matter at that point? to be honest - no. my xH was that MM #2. i was in pain; did the fact that he didn't PLAN his affair to happen help? no. it just... didn't matter. he didn't think of me; sure, he didn't intend to HURT me but... he didn't THINK of me AT ALL. he was past the point of caring - THAT hurts much more... so much more than being intentionally hurt.

 

the story #1 might seem like a better choice because there is no emotional attachment to the OW + the MM has a REASON to cheat; so he feels entitled. however - when folks look for the affairs on purpose, there is a big fat chance that they're already done with their marriage. so you have a problem, even if the OW meant nothing. ironically - in my personal experience with couples dealing with infidelity... MMs from example #1 are more likely to leave.

 

So if a man plans, schemes, plots, acts, WILLFULLY to do wrong, the outcome is better.

 

eh... depends on who you ask.

 

for me... if i wanted to fix my marriage - story #1 would be totally hopeless. you gotta be completely emotionally checked out to seriously consider an affair and then to actually make that decision and look for the affair partner...? sheesh. it's almost like dating. for someone to go through all of THAT and to make all that effort... i'd just save us both the trouble and divorce.

 

now... with #2 - there is emotional attachment to the OW. sure. but the MM isn't completely detached from the spouse and his marriage so there might be some chance to heal, to have honest communication, to work through problems and be better. BUT you're stuck with a WS who has weak personal boundaries, wasn't able or isn't able to detect problems in marriage (MMs in these situations usually claim they have no idea why the affair happened; when you don't know the cause, it's hard to fix the problem) and finally... has emotional attachment to the OW. now you have the Romeo and Juliet syndrome; it would be for the best if the BS allowed their WS to end the affair relationship on their own terms... if they're forced to do that choice... they're stuck with the tragic, soulmates, couldn't be type of love. and that never vanishes from the WS's mind so it's hard to fix the marriage. i'd choose number two but it would be a SUPER bumpy road to recovery.

 

which option would be LESS painful? definitely #1 - because there was no emotional attachment to the OW. i think most people rationalize it that way. the OW meant nothing to me often translates into = he still loves me. irrational but... there you have it.

Edited March 9, 2016 by minimariah

[burnt]

Needed to add, how he felt about his ow had no bearing on what I though he felt about me. If he loved me truly, he wouldn't have cheated.

 

Thank you purple sorrow;

that's a very interesting point you just made above.

 

Added question for you: (just curious)

if you find out tomorrow that your husband has developed feelings for another woman, feels very attracted to her, and is constantly thinking about her, even though he is trying to brush those thoughts aside, but does not act on his desires/temptations,

how would you feel?

 

I'm asking because:

While I do not know what it feels like to be a BS,

I feel if my lover/partner had feelings for someone else that would be much much harder for me to handle--it would really crush me more than the knowledge of any physical affair.

[DrReplyInRhymes]

Let me preface by saying I am not and have not been married before,

Commitment for me is huge, its a choice to commit to someone you adore.

 

In this scenario, I can see purples point of view and understand,

For the choice of commitment was betrayed in both of the scenarios at hand,

It really matters not the means to which the outcome came to be,

For the outcome would be the only real problem that mattered to me.

 

If I had a wife, and she made the choice to cheat by decision,

It would be heartbreaking to know she sought that out with precision,

Or if she allowed an emotional bond to develop that culminated in an affair,

It would still have the same outcome of causing the fabric of my heart to tear.

 

I would not really care, or hurt any less, about the means in which it came to pass,

The hurt, the betrayal, the broken vows, the pain that would undoubtedly last,

Both scenarios would equally destroy any chance at a life I thought we mutually shared,

Even if it was the hardest decision of my life, I'd walk out and move on til I no longer cared.

[purplesorrow]

Thank you purple sorrow;

that's a very interesting point you just made above.

 

Added question for you: (just curious)

if you find out tomorrow that your husband has developed feelings for another woman, feels very attracted to her, and is constantly thinking about her, even though he is trying to brush those thoughts aside, but does not act on his desires/temptations,

how would you feel?

 

I'm asking because:

While I do not know what it feels like to be a BS,

I feel if my lover/partner had feelings for someone else that would be much much harder for me to handle--it would really crush me more than the knowledge of any physical affair.

 

Well, I divorced my husband for cheating. If he has devolved feelings for someone, for me that means he didn't have boundaries with that person. How is that not still cheating? I would be just as hurt.

[burnt]

Let me preface by saying I am not and have not been married before,

Commitment for me is huge, its a choice to commit to someone you adore.

 

In this scenario, I can see purples point of view and understand,

For the choice of commitment was betrayed in both of the scenarios at hand,

It really matters not the means to which the outcome came to be,

For the outcome would be the only real problem that mattered to me.

 

If I had a wife, and she made the choice to cheat by decision,

It would be heartbreaking to know she sought that out with precision,

Or if she allowed an emotional bond to develop that culminated in an affair,

It would still have the same outcome of causing the fabric of my heart to tear.

 

I would not really care, or hurt any less, about the means in which it came to pass,

The hurt, the betrayal, the broken vows, the pain that would undoubtedly last,

Both scenarios would equally destroy any chance at a life I thought we mutually shared,

Even if it was the hardest decision of my life, I'd walk out and move on til I no longer cared.

 

Oh My God.

Dr. Dr. Reply in Rhythms,

 

WOW.

 

Can I just say that it's really hard to read your responses for me

because I'm so impressed with your poetry writing skills and rhythms that match in such perfection that I forget to read the actual message in your posts.

(That's a darn compliment).

 

Seriously impressive (the poetry that is).

The message in the poetry (after reading twice), darn cool too.

[burnt]

minimariah, the way you shed light in all your posts with careful analysis never stops to amaze me. Always so incredibly so insightful and thoughtful.

 

A beautiful reply. Thank you.