Infidelity: which is the lesser of the two evil?

[daisygirl19]

What an interesting thread!!

 

I come at this from a few different angles. As a BS having been through both types of affairs, the first was easier to get over. The OW was a ONS, had no bearing on my relationship with my now ex-husband and was no real threat to my relationship. She simply fulfilled a need he had at that moment in time that I was not willing to meet.

 

The second affair was your typical friend, who he started spending more and more time with, and developed into a full blown emotional and physical affair. By the time this happened, my marriage wasn't worth the paper it was signed on, and I moved on without issue. There was nothing to forgive, forget or try to reconcile with.

 

As an OW formerly involved in the second type, it was pure hell. Far more painful for me than being a BS. He loves me, wants to be with me, spends every waking hour with me, either in person, by phone, text, etc., but still returns to her at the end of each day. While he was adamant that they were (of course) nothing more than roommates, never shared a bed, he was completely checked out of the marriage, and putting an exit plan in place. His exit plan was to deny the extent of our relationship to spare her that pain, go to MC to determine the best way to end the marriage and work out custody issues. That took about a year from the date he moved out. It was a LONG year. She was blindsided that he wanted out and wasn't happy. She truly didn't see it coming, although she didn't argue there were issues with their marriage. She just never saw them as issues big enough to make him leave. Him having an affair she holds him accountable for. As far as him leaving, she puts 100% of that blame on me. She would have rather had him unhappy but stay than leave under any circumstances. I think she would say that affair type two is worse.

 

I can't help but feel like the first type of affair might be easier on the OW. At least she knows where she stands and if she does start to develop real feelings, on some level she's not really surprised to find the outcome isn't want she now decides she wants. A matter of walking in with eyes wide open if you will.

[wmacbride]

I think this neatly encapsulates the different streams of thought. This stream posits the Relationship as the central issue - for #2 to be the higher risk, the focus is on the condition of the R. If #2 happens, the R is in a worse state than #1, therefore lower chance of recovery- if I'm getting it right.

 

For those of us who view it differently, it's because we are focusing not on the R as central, but on the WS. WS 1 is bored, intentional, calculating. S/he views others (the AP) instrumentally, and has little concern for the M or the BS. Is this someone we'd want to be with? WS 2, OTOH, is less intentional, less scheming, falls prey to emotions and gets caught up. We find that kind of person easier to relate to, easier to forgive.

 

Which raises the question - when we consider infidelity, do we focus on the WS as source, or the M?

 

 

I can understand how an ow would like to view it as being the fault of the M or bs,, as that makes the actions of the ws excusable, or at the very least, much more palatable. This ties into the belief that a spouse who is unhappy has no choice but to stay.

 

One underlying issue that is ignored in this line of thinking is that in a proportion of cases, a ws cheats because of something in them. Sometimes, it speaks to poor coping strategies to stress in his or her life beyond the M, sometimes it speaks to issues in the way they were raised, sometimes, there's mental illness, sometimes it's entitlement issues, sometimes it's just plain laziness or cowardice on the part of the ws- easier to cheat than do the work of either strengthening their marriage or leaving it, sometimes it's something else.

 

Sure , some mm or mw cheat because there is something lacking in their marriage, some cheat for other reasons, but at the heart of every infidelity is an issue within the ws them self.

[minimariah]

Which raises the question - when we consider infidelity, do we focus on the WS as source, or the M?

 

both. it's possible to focus only on the WS - without the marriage being bad or unhappy - in situations where infidelity comes as a result of mental illness or deeper problems... such as childhood abuse: many WS use affairs as self medication and attempt to rewrite history + take back some of their power.

 

now... is it possible to completely remove any connection between the act of infidelity and someone's character? no. it can never be stripped down to just one's circumstances.

 

so in my personal opinion, infidelity is almost always a matter of character + a symptom of deeper marital problems. however it IS a personal problem and points to bad coping mechanisms but at the same time... folks who are TRULY happily married and satisfied won't cheat. if they do -- that brings us to the first paragraph of my post.

 

now, many BS understand this as putting the blame on them but it's simply pointing out that infidelity is almost always related to the state of one's marriage. at the same time - there is this weird phenomenon... two spouses can have COMPLETELY different view of their marriage; one spouse can be miserable, the other one can be extremely happy.

 

I always wonder why people like that don't just stay single and find other single people to be with who share their views.

 

they don't want to.

 

i know this MM; dedicated family man. dedicated husband, dedicated father; spends 99% of his time with his family. that 1% of the time? with various OWs. when you ask him why -- he will tell you he feels entitled to take some time for himself when he gives his all to his family.

 

does it make sense to us? no. to him? absolutely. he thinks that extra sex on the side is his reward for the hard work and dedication to his family; and he won't give that up.

 

and finally - resentment. quiet resentment during the years: people suddenly wake up and feel extremely angry and justified in their affairs.

 

i truly believe many affairs are really an act of ANGER directed at the spouses. these MMs or MWs are extremely upset with their BSs for this or that reason and they lash out through affairs, use affairs as some sort of punishment.

 

there is a lot of exaggeration, demonizing of the BS, avoiding responsibilities and rationalization in EVERY affair. some feel more right about it... some don't. at the end of the day; almost everyone thinks they're right and using all of this above as coping mechanism. it isn't easy to see your REAL self with all the flaws and admit how extremely dirty and wrong you did to others: 99% of all WSs won't and can't do that.

[wmacbride]

both. it's possible to focus only on the WS - without the marriage being bad or unhappy - in situations where infidelity comes as a result of mental illness or deeper problems... such as childhood abuse: many WS use affairs as self medication and attempt to rewrite history + take back some of their power.

 

 

 

I see your point, but boy, does that ever sound passive aggressive.

[dreamingoftigers]

You know what?

 

I didn't read the whole thread but I would find MM #1 MUCH HARDER to get over.

 

That would be (and has been) absolutely devastating for me.

 

There's something about knowing that people can emotionally link, and those things do happen and get carried away.

 

But a guy who seeks out vagina for just the thrill of it, really smacks of ZERO consideration and sociopathy.

 

It also makes me question if there is something inherently sexually wrong with me.

 

Like, why wouldn't jackass come and ask me for "spice" it is was about that.

 

At least with OW, it's "oh well, they spent time together and had some sort of human connection. Maybe it isn't a reflection of me or something missing at all. It's just him and extremely poor boundaries and he wasn't searching for this like a torpedo on a mission."

 

Although I will say this: both are pathetic and I would at this age gladly dump both. Not the age when I was first betrayed though.

[dreamingoftigers]

And…that's a much more important question to ask. But it's also a tricky question to ask because unfortunately, from the point of view of the hurt BS it can easily sound like 'blaming' the betrayed partner.

 

I am most likely not going to be popular here to state my personal view that when an infidelity takes place, it means the marriage had failed long before the actual act of infidelity took place. Whether the evidence of that failure was visible or not. And I am also not going to be popular in saying that when a marriage fails, BOTH partners had something to contribute to that failure, NOT just one parson.

 

NOTE:

I am NOT saying when WS cheats, the BS is somehow responsible for the cheating.

I'm saying, long before the WS gets into cheating, both the WS and BS had marital issues that neither realized and/or addressed--as partners together.

 

And I add (to support my argument above),

that in so many cases when couples reconcile after affairs, they spend a lot of time reestablishing communications, and I have read variations of the following statements many times:

 

"we communicate more and are more open about how we feel".

 

Meaning the communication had been missing or lacking BEFORE the affair.

 

You know what?

 

I don't agree.

It assumes that both partners went in with similar intents and parameter s regarding marriage.

 

Many men in various cultures for instance believe that you anchor a wife, provide for her and then play around all that you want, with your wife " blissfully unaware."

 

Many men in this culture practice that. Hell, my boss practices that. Without remorse and without her awareness.

 

There doesn't have to be "an issue" the betrayed spouse is causing if the WS is assuming "oh hey, game on. I'm.a guy and this is the deal. Just keep it on the DL."

 

All of this "oh the marriage must have failed first to open the cheater door" is a condemnation of the BS. It suggests they actually contributed to the problem of cheating when in fact many times it would not have mattered one iota who or what the BS was. In fact, in my boss' case he imploded his first marriage with his shenannigans, so it isn't like he is ignorant of the consequences. Just yesterday he said in front of myself and my husband "if my wife decides she doesn't like x y and z, I'll just get another wife."

 

I know damn well he NEVER would have voiced that to her directly. In fact he's a big, sucky guy in front of her. And that's how these guys operate. Is that the BS'S fault?

 

No. Not at all. Some people just suck.

 

It's the equivalent of saying "if he hit her, she must have done 'something' to piss him off."

 

My experience with people is that some people just elect a particular human to dump their crap and abuse on. Bullies do it. They pick on the little kid or the different kid or whatever kid they figure they can get away wuth bearing on. There's nothing the kid did to "contribute to it" besides looking like an acceptable target to a bully. So.e spouses are exactly the same.

 

"I can beat and/or cheat on him/her because they are 'lucky' to have me. I make a good salary or (whatever). They can just deal with it. He/she isn't a 'bad person' I just 'need more' than one person can give me. So I will either play around or vent my frustration on them in rage."

[UpwardForward]

When a man cheats on his wife, I don't think intent matters - unless perhaps it would be a one time situation.

 

 

'Regret' could be a big factor. But the longer an affair has gone on .. ..

[minimariah]

I see your point, but boy, does that ever sound passive aggressive.

 

what do you mean - in what way? i'm sorry, i didn't understand. you mean - it comes off as putting the blame on the BS?

[wmacbride]

what do you mean - in what way? i'm sorry, i didn't understand. you mean - it comes off as putting the blame on the BS?

 

 

Sorry...I meant on the part of the mm. Kind of like him saying that " I'm angry at my life, so I'm going to take it out on my spouse by cheating" rather than actually saying how they feel and actually fixing the issue.

[minimariah]

Sorry...I meant on the part of the mm. Kind of like him saying that " I'm angry at my life, so I'm going to take it out on my spouse by cheating" rather than actually saying how they feel and actually fixing the issue.

 

ohhhhhhhhh, i see!

 

yeah, it's... i don't even have the right word. when you think about it - affairs are this HUGE amount of unnecessary pain. pain that could have been easily avoided. and the worst thing - folks know affairs are bad. you go through life and hear so many different stories, hurt people and consequences of one having an affair so EVERYONE knows it's better to be honest.

 

and EVERYONE still choose to cheat. there is a very strong auto-destructive & destructive trait in the affairs - that's why affairs are a very complex phenomenon.

 

when you hear folks talk - me and my partner had to go through SO many obstacles to be together! then you realize they had no real obstacles: they literally CREATED them so they could defeat them and make the entire relationship worthy. generally - people think they only learn through pain. you know that old saying - nothing worth having comes easy? so when we DO get something easy or when life is literally too good... we find a way of f?cking it up and making it worthy.

 

you wouldn't believe how many affairs happen in genuinely GOOD marriages. happy marriages. it's like folks get bored of being happy.

 

as far as using the affair as punishment goes... one of the examples that really stayed with me -- this MM cheated on his spouse because for years, she nagged him to stop smoking. she did it because she loves him, smoking is bad for him. but every single time she saw him with the cigs - she would tell him to stop. and that went on for years and this MM realized only during his affair that he was super UPSET and ANGRY with the wife. even when he left her for the OW - HE was the angry one. it didn't make sense, right? he dumped her, cheated on her, hurt her - and he was the angry one. it took him a while to realize that he kept resenting her for the smoking and it was building through years and he was growing restless. instead of communicating about it - he lashed out through the affair. took him a long time to win his wife back again.

[Midwestmissy]

Mini- I saw an interesting dynamic that struck me & my wh. My mother law refuses to believe that her daughter has a genetic chronic disease. She's convinced if we just find the cause, she can get off the meds. Easy peasy. When we say genetic, she shuts it right down - no bad genes in her family, no no no. Then she smiles huge and creepy and moves on. It's beyond frustrating - in a way she blames her daughter for not fixing this problem. (It's a legit diagnosis, btw) my sister in law is crushed, she feels no support or empathy or validation, none of the stress good for her, mind you. Mil is not an elderly or uneducated woman - she's a therapist. A flipping therapist.

 

This was exactly how wh behaved before and during the affair. I'd would tell him what we needed, how I felt, and he would refuse to hear it, tell me I was wrong, everything was fine if I'd just agree that the only problem was me being unhappy. All of that denial led him to the affair, without question. Watching him seethe at his mother's total idiocy, a light went on for sure. Why go deep into the emotional trenches when you can just say there's no issue and smile really wide? The pain and blame justified his affair at the time - my wife refuses to help herself, she's choosing unhappiness and look at me! Oh and look who just told me she wanted to have sex with me and I don't need to leave work! It was a mess. And he made a surmountable marital issue a complete destruction of the family.

 

Liam, it's fascinating how many exact things my wh has said that you've written here.

[wmacbride]

ohhhhhhhhh, i see!

 

yeah, it's... i don't even have the right word. when you think about it - affairs are this HUGE amount of unnecessary pain. pain that could have been easily avoided. and the worst thing - folks know affairs are bad. you go through life and hear so many different stories, hurt people and consequences of one having an affair so EVERYONE knows it's better to be honest.

 

and EVERYONE still choose to cheat. there is a very strong auto-destructive & destructive trait in the affairs - that's why affairs are a very complex phenomenon.

 

when you hear folks talk - me and my partner had to go through SO many obstacles to be together! then you realize they had no real obstacles: they literally CREATED them so they could defeat them and make the entire relationship worthy. generally - people think they only learn through pain. you know that old saying - nothing worth having comes easy? so when we DO get something easy or when life is literally too good... we find a way of f?cking it up and making it worthy.

 

you wouldn't believe how many affairs happen in genuinely GOOD marriages. happy marriages. it's like folks get bored of being happy.

 

as far as using the affair as punishment goes... one of the examples that really stayed with me -- this MM cheated on his spouse because for years, she nagged him to stop smoking. she did it because she loves him, smoking is bad for him. but every single time she saw him with the cigs - she would tell him to stop. and that went on for years and this MM realized only during his affair that he was super UPSET and ANGRY with the wife. even when he left her for the OW - HE was the angry one. it didn't make sense, right? he dumped her, cheated on her, hurt her - and he was the angry one. it took him a while to realize that he kept resenting her for the smoking and it was building through years and he was growing restless. instead of communicating about it - he lashed out through the affair. took him a long time to win his wife back again.

 

 

in some oases, it sounds as if the mm views his w as some sort of pseudo-parent, and if he had a really controlling mother, he projects that same controlling behavior onto his wife, especially if he's angry, and even more so if he was , on one hand, spoiled by his mom but also controlled by her.

 

In your example, it could be the wife's reminders about quitting smoking become, in his mind, her trying to control him and so he rebels.

[dreamingoftigers]

in some oases, it sounds as if the mm views his w as some sort of pseudo-parent, and if he had a really controlling mother, he projects that same controlling behavior onto his wife, especially if he's angry, and even more so if he was , on one hand, spoiled by his mom but also controlled by her.

 

In your example, it could be the wife's reminders about quitting smoking become, in his mind, her trying to control him and so he rebels.

 

This dynamic presented itself in my marriage on HIS part.

 

Not the smoking bit. But simple things like, "uh, can you find a job and work at it so I'm not supporting both of us and you are doing something other than sitting around watching TV?"

 

And frankly, I tried it far nicer than that and he would flip the Hell out like I was his mom forcing him to do these awful adult things. It got old fast.

 

He really did have the entitlement on one end and the self-flagellation on the other. Oh the mehtal gymnastics to blame me or blame him or just avoid everything altogether...... Oh the insanity....... For me it was more like, "can you just pass the flipping salt already?"

 

So eventually when I would hear the defensive wind-up start I would plain-out say "Look, I'm not your Mom. You are old enough to do whatever you want. So can we discuss the actual issue or not?" Sometimes it worked. He was always so high-strung about being 'controlled.'

[Cymbeline]

'in some oases, it sounds as if the mm views his w as some sort of pseudo-parent, and if he had a really controlling mother, he projects that same controlling behavior onto his wife, especially if he's angry, and even more so if he was , on one hand, spoiled by his mom but also controlled by her. '

 

i think this kind of projection is extremely prevalent in mid life affairs - and I don't believe the MM needed to have a controlling mother.

 

As their age increases and mortality beckons, they often look at their capable wives shepherding the family instead of being the carefree woman she used to be. They project 'mother' onto her instead of sexual partner and feel attracted to someone who appears carefree and responsibility free to recreate feeling of youth.

[13Hearts]

To me, they're both the same. Weak, with no integrity or character.

[13Hearts]

'in some oases, it sounds as if the mm views his w as some sort of pseudo-parent, and if he had a really controlling mother, he projects that same controlling behavior onto his wife, especially if he's angry, and even more so if he was , on one hand, spoiled by his mom but also controlled by her. '

 

i think this kind of projection is extremely prevalent in mid life affairs - and I don't believe the MM needed to have a controlling mother.

 

As their age increases and mortality beckons, they often look at their capable wives shepherding the family instead of being the carefree woman she used to be. They project 'mother' onto her instead of sexual partner and feel attracted to someone who appears carefree and responsibility free to recreate feeling of youth.

I agree. And don't blame it on the mothers. This is how men are. They are needy and don't know how to take care of themselves, and don't want to anyway. They want (and expect) women to take care of them. How often do you hear MW say their H is their "third child" (fill in # of actual children and add 1).

 

I believe marrying men when they're young is a bad idea. They need to learn how to take care of themselves and be independent. They also need to mature emotionally. Not sure if I'm right about this but it is a problem in marriages, no doubt.

[Red123]

Both mm scenarios require intent and lies. I don't believe that feelings are "caught". When someone is in a committed relationship and starts crossing boundaries with another it shouldn't be a surprise that feelings in some level will develop. Neither scenario just happens and both are a choice of the commuted person. I personally would prefer scenario 1, but that was not the type of A my H had.

[Almond_Joy]

MM #1: MM recognizes he's bored, and wants to add some heat and spice which he is not getting form his spouse. He chooses to deliberately seek out and find someone to have an affair with who is also equally interested in adultery. He clearly states his position that all he wants is a bit of fun on the side, but he loves his wife. Whether it's EA or PA, he can drop his affair partner anytime he wants, but chooses to carry on. He does not feel any emotional attachment to the OW.

 

MM #2: MM is bored. He does not seek out to have an affair. Finds himself feeling attracted to someone, starts chatting, then starts developing strong emotions. He finds himself sinking and getting more and more involved with OW, which turns into a full blown affair. By the time he realizes he's cheating, he tries to stop, but he can't emotionally detach from the OW. He deals with confusion, self-hate, guilt--an entire emotional turmoil.

He tries to end it, but fails each time.

 

#1: Cheated. Intentionally planned to cheat, but no emotional attachment.

#2: Cheated. Didn't intend to cheat, but developed emotional attachment.

Of course, "NO cheating" would be the right moral thing, but given ONLY these two wrong options:

 

If you are/were WS,

if you could rewrite history and "choose" to be one of these two categories, which would you choose? What would be less painful for you?

 

If you are/were BS:

if you could rewrite your WS's history, which would you rather have?

which category would be less painful for you?

 

If you are/were OW/OM:

if you could rewrite history, which MM would you prefer? Which would be less painful for you?

 

 

As a former BS, I'd take #1.

 

Emotional attachment is the hardest to replace/destroy. The duplicity required to maintain a deeply intimate relationship with two people simultaneously would make me doubt the sincerity of his commitment to me for the rest of my life. I can understand being bored and wanting some variety. I can't understand your heart belonging to two people at the same time.