The danger of rose colored glasses?

[thecharade]

Nobody said it's not wrong.

 

But wrong is a very wiggly word.

 

I knew it was wrong, but my kids had two parents at home and I wasn't divorced.

 

Now I am doing it right, and everyone's world is blown up.

 

To be honest, my H would prefer I cheat and stay. He does not want a D.

 

Many feel a D is wrong, too.

[thecharade]

If the choice is cheating or a D, well . . . then it gets tricky. A spouse asking for a D is a HUGE betrayal, too. Many websites--check them out.

 

For many years, marriages survived BECAUSE of affairs. (Don't get me wrong, I don't agree. That is NOT who I am. I am the one that ended my A and faced my fears. I am simply stating a truth.)

[Mrs. John Adams]

yes they do.....it is not easy no matter what you choose.

[mcjordan]

I am very sensitive to "but." I grew up with a lot of buts...

 

"That was good BUT..."

 

"I was wrong BUT...."

 

etc.

 

So for me, if a WS said, "My affair was wrong...BUT....I'd stop listening. At least until my heart stopped bleeding and started beating again.

[ShatteredLady]

If you truly know the results of your actions (I don't think most think that far ahead) divorce is NOT the last resort.

 

Divorce = We have grown apart. We have tried everything we can but we're miserable together. No amount of therapy, books, conversations, date nights etc have helped. We will split or assets & move on.

 

Adultery = I have utter contempt for you. I will look you in the eye & lie to you like an idiot. I am willing to inflict so much pain that I will destroy you. It's worse than hatred. I will crush you but keep on smiling & hoping that you don't discover the truth.

 

I don't have the balls or RESPECT to divorce you. I'd rather torture you.

[Zenstudent]

There's a lot of talk about unhappy marriages. Just to add that dimension, I remember a study that found around 60% of cheating men said, that they were in either a happy or very happy relationship with their primary partner.

 

That's a tall order for a BS who wants to take responsibility for their share of the reasons that lead to infidelity.

[thecharade]

Well, that is absolutely true, ZenStudent. Affairs come in all shapes and sizes, and while all are wrong and hurtful, they are not motivated by the same level of wrong and hurtful. I do think there are two kinds of cheaters: broken from the start and broken at the time.

 

I know a serial cheating guy (I have mentioned him before) who has cheated on every girlfriend he ever had, and now he is cheating on his W. He has been broken from the start. And it is a conquest type of cheating, the rush of "getting" as many ego boosts as he can. He does not admit to any of this, but I see things and pay attention. Where does his W fit into this? Well . . . I do not know her very well, but I believe he cheated both with her and on her while they were dating. So, ugh . . . why did she want him? He is NOT, and never was, marriage material. But when she catches him--and she will--I know two things with certainty: she will blame the OW and she will be devastated and shocked by his behavior. She will NOT divorce him. And she will not see that she brought this pain on herself by marrying this guy in the first place. He was broken from the start and she was equally broken for marrying him.

 

I was also broken from the start, and so is my H. I picked a man - child who wanted a mommy, and then (shocker!) I was unhappy. As a recovering codependent in the truest sense, I have always picked people who needed me instead of picking healthy relationships. But even though miserable, I was way too codependent to choose divorce. No one in my family would support me. (FOO issues--everything is always my fault.) So even with IC and anti-depressants, I was in crisis. Lost 20 lbs. and I wasn't over weight. I couldn't even smile. If my AP (exBF) hadn't written to say Hi, I most likely would have tried to kill myself. I was broken, broken, broken. A broken person cannot figure out how to make a healthy choice. Of course my exH now sees how much work I was doing and how badly I tried to fix the dynamic, and he is full of regret. He doesn't care about the A because he is losing his M and he has been in IC for three years. He knows I was wrong, and he knows he was wrong.

 

I take responsibility for the A.

My exH takes responsibility for the D.

It's all painful and ugly.

 

Is every relationship like this? No, but more often than not, the BS tolerate wayward or selfish or alarming behavior long before the A took place. They allowed conflict avoidance or powerlessness or parent-child dynamic or no SC or signs of depression or workaholic lifestyles or disconnect or disrespect or whatever.

 

Can I ask, which is worse: your spouse wants a divorce and gives you NO say. It just happens. OR your spouse has an A and gives you NO say. It just happens.

 

Would it be better if people did not cheat but instead up and left and divorced? I think not.

 

It is very true that women initiate most divorces and men do not want to get or be divorced. Most experts feel that yes, men report being "happy" in their marriages, but it is because A) men are out of touch with their feelings and inner emotions, B) women 'run' families and men feel they would lose that entire side of their lives, and C) men often do not even realize when they are unhappy. Until it is too late. Isn't that the saying--women have affairs so they can get divorced (like me) and men have affairs so they can stay married?

 

I know it all sucks, and I so regret my whole experience with this stupidity. I have done a lot more IC and tons of work, and I will never avoid my problems and hide from reality like that again. I am sorry that anyone has to go through this at all, but I go back to the original notion of owning all of our mistakes and traumas to avoid being victims, so that we can all feel power. There are always lessons to be learned that have nothing to do with blaming other people. It is a stage though; people can't own any part of it until they have worked through all of the other emotions. I have been betrayed, and I know that process takes time. But when time went by, I saw what my own role was and vowed not to make those particular mistakes ever again.

 

I still feel that when the time is right, it is important for us to see our role in causing or contributing to our own problems.

[flickofthecoin]

Liam, I know you quite often mention that it was your wife's lack of libido that set the stage up for your cheating... but do you think you yourself played any part in the making of a poor marriage?

 

As a BS, I can see that I was responsible for our problematic relationship... but so was he. We were both part of a broken dynamic, we were both being neglected, we were both unhappy... but only one of us made the decision to cheat, and so there is no way in hell I would accept the idea that I am to blame for what my WH did. Like he was in a ****hole, so was I. The reason for WHY he cheated isn't because of our terrible marriage - if it was, I would have also been out there, ****ing another man. No. He cheated because of HIM.

 

I think it is a good idea for a BS to recognise their own failings and attempt to fix it to become a better person... but it's not all on the BS. The WS also has failings, plus some, which also needs to be addressed. Your posts seem to have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way Liam... and it's because a lot of what you have said in this thread focuses on the flaws of your wife, on the inability of many BSs to see their own mistakes, on the idea that WSs are pushed to cheat. What about the other side of the story?

[mcjordan]

I do think there are two kinds of cheaters: broken from the start and broken at the time.

 

I do agree with this. The philosophy some have that every cheater was some "monster in waiting" is just ridiculous.

[mcjordan]

Liam, I know you quite often mention that it was your wife's lack of libido that set the stage up for your cheating... but do you think you yourself played any part in the making of a poor marriage?

 

As a BS, I can see that I was responsible for our problematic relationship... but so was he. We were both part of a broken dynamic, we were both being neglected, we were both unhappy... but only one of us made the decision to cheat, and so there is no way in hell I would accept the idea that I am to blame for what my WH did. Like he was in a ****hole, so was I. The reason for WHY he cheated isn't because of our terrible marriage - if it was, I would have also been out there, ****ing another man. No. He cheated because of HIM.

 

I think it is a good idea for a BS to recognise their own failings and attempt to fix it to become a better person... but it's not all on the BS. The WS also has failings, plus some, which also needs to be addressed. Your posts seem to have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way Liam... and it's because a lot of what you have said in this thread focuses on the flaws of your wife, on the inability of many BSs to see their own mistakes, on the idea that WSs are pushed to cheat. What about the other side of the story?

 

This is very astute. I have a high drive (not "for a woman," a real high drive). But even I know that we women cannot feel connected enough to have sex if things outside the bedroom aren't good. If a woman lives with a man who is defensive, who tends to always need to be right, who is demanding, who is neglectful, etc. etc. ....then a typical woman is NOT going to want to be sexually intimate with him. I am not saying whether any husband here is or is not that way, but many many times, you can trace a woman's non-existent libido to things in the marriage relationship that hurt her.

[wmacbride]

This is very astute. I have a high drive (not "for a woman," a real high drive). But even I know that we women cannot feel connected enough to have sex if things outside the bedroom aren't good. If a woman lives with a man who is defensive, who tends to always need to be right, who is demanding, who is neglectful, etc. etc. ....then a typical woman is NOT going to want to be sexually intimate with him. I am not saying whether any husband here is or is not that way, but many many times, you can trace a woman's non-existent libido to things in the marriage relationship that hurt her.

 

 

Trying to place the blame for the affair on the person who didn't make the choice to have it can go round and round endlessly.

 

As they saying goes, at some point, one needs to put on their "big boy/ girl pants" and take responsibility for their choices.

 

It's one thing to say " I cheated. I did it because I was unhappy. I should have found a better way to handle things, but I didn't. If we are going to reconcile, addressing the reasons I was unhappy and the problems in our marriage will have to be a piece we deal with but for now, but bs needs my help to heal"

 

It's another thing to say " I cheated but if not for the actions and behavior of my bs, I would never have done that. Ergo, it becomes their fault"

 

 

[mcjordan]

It's one thing to say " I cheated. I did it because I was unhappy. I should have found a better way to handle things, but I didn't. If we are going to reconcile, addressing the reasons I was unhappy and the problems in our marriage will have to be a piece we deal with but for now, but bs needs my help to heal"

 

It's another thing to say " I cheated but if not for the actions and behavior of my bs, I would never have done that. Ergo, it becomes their fault"

 

You said that very well and very clearly. So I would assume anyone who does NOT make that distinction clear really does, sadly, believe the bolded.

[Liam1]

 

 

 

 

In other marriages that I see one spouse is extremely neglectful or condescending or dismissive and that may have lead the spouse to seek appreciation elsewhere.

I can not speak to those issues, but personally, I can understand why someone living with such a demeaning person might seek and affair.

IF a spouse fails to offer love and appreciation to their spouse and they seek it elsewhere, that is an equal and opposite reaction. The BS needs to own that.

 

These statements I can relate to, and this is where I feel my story differs from a lot of BS on this forum. I had become what you describe above in the year leading to his A. I am not responsible for his A, however I'm sure I made it far easier to accept the doting of the MOW, when he would come home to complete opposite from me.

 

Since deciding to reconcile I have owned that. He has also owned his behaviour that contributed (not all his fault) to me becoming like that, which lead to him checking out of our M. We both owned our part, he started by owning the A. I believe that some people cheat even when they have a great spouse who treat them great, and then there's some of us who have had to really change and work on things to make them great again.

 

The A wasn't good for us, but the efforts we have made since have saved our M.

 

I agree. I could not have said it better.

 

Both people in a marriage can make it work or fail. It can not work or fail on it's own.

 

Both spouses need to own their choices and own their faults and issues. Unless that happens, the reconciliation will likely eventually fail.

[Liam1]

Zen isn't opposed to taking responsibility for your own actions, on the contrary.

 

 

You need to research the definition of Zen. You don't seem to grasp the concept.

 

We can't post links here but you can google the title: Here is the meaning of zen in part.

 

[sIZE=4]

What is the Meaning of Zen[/sIZE][sIZE=4]?

[/sIZE] by

Rafael Espericueta

The word Zen has become part of the English language, but what exactly does it mean?

 

 

 

The whole point of Zen practice is to become fully aware, here and now. To come home to the present moment; this is truly where we live.

 

 

 

Thinking verbally takes us far into the past, or into the distant future. But both past and future are fantasies, since the future isn’t known and our memories of the past are often quite distorted accounts of what really happened.

 

 

 

Zen exhorts one to “Come to your senses!”, for when we get lost in thoughts of the past or future, life passes us by.

 

 

 

When one mindfully dwells in the present moment, one completely dissolves into whatever activity manifests.

 

 

 

One becomes the activity. Most people have had peak experiences, which all involve being so totally involved with life that one’s sense of separateness dissolves into the experience. Very Zen. ...

 

 

Living fully and authentically in the present moment makes each instant of one’s life a peak experience.

 

 

 

Each moment is filled with a profound peace and clarity. Each moment is perceived to have infinite depth and significance, charged with magic and mystery, infinitely precious.

 

 

 

Zen brings us face to face with our true original nature, undefiled by cultural conditioning and painful neurotic tendencies.

 

 

Words and concepts can be useful, but mistaking them for reality is a big mistake.

 

 

 

Concepts about reality are not reality.

 

 

 

The menu is not the food. Dissolving all ones preconceptions, beliefs, concepts, and judgments about ourselves and the universe, can be a very liberating experience. What a relief to let go of all that baggage! (Most or all of it is not true anyway.)

 

 

 

Simplicity is often associated with Zen.

 

 

 

And Zen practice is indeed simple, if not easy. Just practice being fully present, right here, right now.

 

 

 

Perceive directly, without filtering perceptions through beliefs and preconceptions.

 

 

 

Dissolve into the eternal now, and realize that the Universe itself peers out through your eyes, hears through your ears, and breaths each breath. Unity beyond all conception. If not now, then when?

[OneLov]

IF a spouse fails to offer love and appreciation to their spouse and they seek it elsewhere, that is an equal and opposite reaction. The BS needs to own that.

 

With all due respect, I believe the problem is Newtonian physics is a poor analogy for infidelity. Cheating is a very unequal and opposite reaction. I understand the point you are making though. I do not feel any BS's are disagreeing that there are issues in the marriage that may have created a favorable climate for infidelity, but there is not a causal nexus between unhappiness and cheating. It is not a reflex or reaction; it is an independent and deliberate choice.

 

That being said, that are many GOOD people who make poor choices. Everyone (minus certain personality disorders) has the capacity for empathy and remorse. Anyone who displays those qualities has the power to change. Just like cheating, the ability to change is a choice. We do not always make the best choices, but we are always able to make a choice.

 

I think Mrs. JA said it best a few pages back: In time, any legitimate or real pre-affair issues will be addressed in the "new" marriage because communication is the cornerstone for the foundation of the "new" relationship. If you start with being empathetic, remorseful, and willing to change, the rest will be addressed in due time in a healthy and constructive manner.

Edited March 18, 2016 by OneLov

[Liam1]

 

 

 

 

In other marriages that I see one spouse is extremely neglectful or condescending or dismissive and that may have lead the spouse to seek appreciation elsewhere.

I can not speak to those issues, but personally, I can understand why someone living with such a demeaning person might seek and affair.

IF a spouse fails to offer love and appreciation to their spouse and they seek it elsewhere, that is an equal and opposite reaction. The BS needs to own that.

 

 

Red:

 

I agree, here, too. My wife has wisely owned her behavior. She, too, made poor choices and now she realizes that. At many points she simply refused to discuss her issues and was dismissive.

 

She has changed and I have changed and that is why our reconciliation is successful.

 

If my wife were still attempt to cast all blame solely on me, our reconciliation would have failed. She wisely has not. She wanted to save the marriage and so did I. I offered her the option of divorce. She did not want that.

 

I read so much vitriol here from some BSs and so much ongoing blaming and attempts to shame the cheating spouse and refusal to accept any blame of their own that I have to wonder why these BS choose to stay married.

 

It takes courage to divorce. If one is so unhappy and hateful toward their spouse WHY would they want to be married to them

 

If a BS is unhappy, they should have the courage to divorce and set themselves free.

 

if you really feel you were perfect in the marriage and your spouse had absolutely no reason to seek an affair then why it heavens name would you want to stay married to that person?

 

Another poster mentioned having the "balls to ask for a divorce" rather than cheat.

 

Well that works both ways. If a BS is unhappy, then they should be honest and ask for a divorce rather than continuing to blame and attempting to continually shame the cheating spouse.

 

If they won't ask for a divorce, how are they any different from the spouse who cheated but refused to ask for a divorce?

 

Staying in a marriage when you no longer love your spouse is a very dishonest thing to do. It's living a lie every day.

[wmacbride]

With all due respect, I believe the problem is Newtonian physics is a poor analogy for infidelity. Cheating is a very unequal and opposite reaction. I understand the point you are making though. I do not feel any BS's are disagreeing that there are issues in the marriage that may have created a favorable climate for infidelity, but there is not a causal nexus between unhappiness and cheating. It is not a reflex or reaction; it is an independent and deliberate choice.

 

That being said, that are many GOOD people who make poor choices. Everyone (minus certain personality disorders) has the capacity for empathy and remorse. Anyone who displays those qualities has the power to change. Just like cheating, the ability to change is a choice. We do not always make the best choices, but we are always able to make a choice.

 

I think Mrs. JA said it best a few pages back: In time, any legitimate or real pre-affair issues will be addressed in the "new" marriage because communication is the cornerstone for the foundation of the "new" relationship. If you start with being empathetic, remorseful, and willing to change, the rest will be addressed in due time in a healthy and constructive manner.

 

very well put.

[mcjordan]

If my wife were still attempt to cast all blame solely on me, our reconciliation would have failed.

 

Does this refer to the state of your marriage BEFORE the affair, or to the affair itself?

 

I think that is a distinguishing question. A BS who refuses to acknowledge the part they may have played in the state of the marriage is going to hinder REAL reconciliation.

 

However, a BS should NOT take up the blame for the choice/coping mechanism the WS used to DEAL with their unhappiness (aka the affair). It may seem to be splitting hairs, but actually it isn't.

 

Someone close to me was killed by a drunk driver. This person was riding in an old truck the night they were hit, and their seatbelt did not work. They were thrown from the car.

 

Now...the drunk driver's blood alcohol level GREATLY exceeded the legal limit, and he pretty much SLAMMED into the vehicle. Could my friend have survived IF the seatbelt had worked? Maybe, though the injuries still would have been devastating. Does that mean that the owner of the truck is to blame for my friend's death?

 

No

 

No

 

No

 

He's responsible for having a crappy 1970's truck with a faulty seatbelt. But it was the drunk driver who chose to get into his car 3 sheets to the wind, plow into my friend, and kill him.

 

We can argue semantics about the seatbelt....but no one with any compassion would tell the truck owner "it's your fault Joe died."

 

We could also speculate about why the drunk was drinking. Maybe his wife left or he lost his job or he found out he had a brain tumor. Yeah...those thins suck. He still chose to drive drunk and kill my friend.

 

For almost every BS I know, that distinction is CRUCIAL. And every truly repentant WS I know understands and acknowledges that distinction.

[wmacbride]

Liam,

 

If a w was unhappy with her H and walked up to him and punched him in the face, would you tell him that was partly his fault and he should accept some of the blame?

 

Do you accept some of the blame for your W not wanting to have sex with you? You seem very adept and placing all of the blame for that on her. What role did you play?

 

Would she be right to place half of the blame for that at your feet? Or should the blame for how she acted lay at hers?

 

What happens the next time you are unhappy? Will you cheat again? Will you hold that over your wife's head" you'd better tow the line or you know what I am capable of doing"

 

Some of the bs on here who have replied to you have been reconciled for years, and have moved on to happy marriages, and your method of doing so, where the bs is made to feel responsible for the ws choosing to cheat had no place in their recovery.

 

I asked my husband his opinion on it. His view: both the husband and wife are responsible for the state of the marriage. The spouse who cheats, especially if they go out looking for an A, are 100% responsible or their choice to cheat. Anything else is acting like a little kid who knocks over the cookie jar and then blames the cookie jar for breaking itself-there was also a lot of eye rolling on his part.

[mcjordan]

I asked my husband his opinion on it. His view: both the husband and wife are responsible for the state of the marriage. The spouse who cheats, especially if they go out looking for an A, are 100% responsible or their choice to cheat. Anything else is acting like a little kid who knocks over the cookie jar and then blames the cookie jar for breaking itself-there was also a lot of eye rolling on his part.

 

You husband sounds pretty sharp

[Mrs. John Adams]

No matter what a wayward may say or do...no matter how hard we may try...

 

We cannot remove the choice we made to cheat.

 

It really doesn't matter why we did it....

 

We cannot undo it

We cannot unhurt our spouse

 

It forever remains in their heart

 

They can still love you

They can forgive you

 

But they cannot and will not forget

 

This is a sobering fact.

[wmacbride]

You husband sounds pretty sharp

 

 

Yes he is.

 

Mind you, when we first started counseling, our councilor made the point that , in her experience, those who reconcile successfully take the A as part of a bigger picture of the marriage as a whole, but that has to come after the fallout and heartache of the A is addressed first.

 

It makes a lot of sense. It's like performing triage on someone who comes into the ER with a gaping wound. Sure, they may have some other chronic health problem as well, but the first priority is to treat the major injury and stabilize the patient, then address the long term health concerns that will take a lot of time to sort out.

[wmacbride]

No matter what a wayward may say or do...no matter how hard we may try...

 

We cannot remove the choice we made to cheat.

 

It really doesn't matter why we did it....

 

We cannot undo it

We cannot unhurt our spouse

 

It forever remains in their heart

 

They can still love you

They can forgive you

 

But they cannot and will not forget

 

This is a sobering fact.

 

No, we can't forget it, but for those of us who have a ws who was remorseful and who was willing to face what they did, it can actually be seen as a new beginning.

 

In an odd sort of way, while the loss of innocence is devastating, it does have a silver lining. For a couple who goes through it and comes out the other side together and happy it can show them just how strong their love and relationship actually is, and make them very grateful for what they have in each other.

 

It's a nasty price to pay, but marriages can survive and thrive.

 

Before all the cr@p you and your H went through, do you feel that the two of you fully understood just how deeply you love each other? Do you appreciate each other even more now than you did before?

[Mrs. John Adams]

No, we can't forget it, but for those of us who have a ws who was remorseful and who was willing to face what they did, it can actually be seen as a new beginning.

 

In an odd sort of way, while the loss of innocence is devastating, it does have a silver lining. For a couple who goes through it and comes out the other side together and happy it can show them just how strong their love and relationship actually is, and make them very grateful for what they have in each other.

 

It's a nasty price to pay, but marriages can survive and thrive.

 

Before all the cr@p you and your H went through, do you feel that the two of you fully understood just how deeply you love each other? Do you appreciate each other even more now than you did before?

 

No I don't think we understood how deeply we loved each other. We did not understand a lot of things in those days. We took our love and each other for granted.

 

We don't anymore... We are grateful for each day we have together.

 

Thank you for reminding me...

 

I needed that today

[wmacbride]

No I don't think we understood how deeply we loved each other. We did not understand a lot of things in those days. We took our love and each other for granted.

 

We don't anymore... We are grateful for each day we have together.

 

Thank you for reminding me...

 

I needed that today

 

Young, innocent love is such a heady thing, wonderful in its own way.

 

Mature love, that abides through all, is beautiful.

 

It sounds like that is what you and your h have.