The danger of rose colored glasses?

[Liam1]

 

Enough with the victim-blaming. No, the betrayed spouses are not all perfect. But their imperfection does not mean it's OK to cheat on them.

 

If you are taking the stance of a victim, only,.... and you are not willing to take a look at the state of the marriage and your LIKELY part in its dysfunction than why are you reconciling?

 

You obviously think your husband is a rat and a total lout. So why do you stay? How can you love someone you feel that way about?

 

If you continue refusing to accept any responsibility for the marital dysfunction, than it is highly likely your reconciliation will not work in the long run.

 

Really, If my wife did not own her part in our dysfunctional relationship, it would be so much easier for me to divorce and find someone new.

 

Personally, it would be much easier for me to divorce and start fresh, anyway. Reconciliation is difficult work.

 

However, I love my wife, so I want to work on the marriage.

 

With that said, I am not going to spend the rest of my life saying mea culpa, without my wife owning her faults.

 

If she did not own her faults, It would not be long before I gave up and decided that starting fresh would be better for both of us.

 

There may be a handful of cases where the cheating spouse is a total narcissist or a psychopath and was in a perfect marriage with the perfect person, but that is likely not the norm.

 

If a person is married to one of those people, a divorce is likely the best choice for them rather than reconciliation.

 

But I think at the very least there are many spouses who become very neglectful and disrespectful toward a spouse and take their spouse hugely for granted, but are not willing to admit to this.

 

Also, if my wife had been the one to cheat, and she was not in love with the AP, it would not end my marriage.

 

I would only end a marriage because someone cheated...if they told me they were in love with the affair partner.

 

In that case, I would file that day.

 

Every marriage is different and each person has to be willing to look at the marriage as well as themselves and the spouse with a honest eye.

[waterwoman]

" Because I don't think you can possibly turn into a completely remorseful and patient and selfless person overnight. "

 

Goodness! I don't want to be married to someone like that - I'd feel utterly inadequate!! I'll settle for a remorseful, usually patient and relatively unselfish normal person with forgiveable human failings thanks

 

Re a BS addressing their own failings, I agree. However I haven't read many BS's posts on here where that isn't that case. A lot of BS WANT to be to blame because if they are they have some control over the situation 'If he cheated because I did X, then if I stop doing X, he won't do it again'. Problem is X is not the root cause of the cheating.

 

There are two separate strands being conflated:

 

1. Marital issues

2. Cheating.

 

1 one does not directly cause 2. but I can guarantee that 2 will lead to 1 in spades! Trying to fix 1 with 2 is like putting out a smouldering fire with a container of petrol. it is remarkably ineffective.

[Liam1]

I think that the state of a marriage or the state of someone's happiness and the choice to cheat are two separate issues.

 

Do you really? Seriously?

[wmacbride]

Well, Zenstudent, I am surprised that you have the title ZEN in your screen name.

 

Your thinking is not very ZEN like.

 

I get the picture. You are perfect. I am glad there is at least one human on earth who is or at least thinks they are perfect.

 

 

I hope zen doesn't mind me speaking up about this, and corrects me if I have misinterpreted what they were saying.

 

One can keep going round and round trying to figure out wy and affair happened.

 

In your case, liam, you don't strike me as a bad person, or someone who wnated anyone to be hurt- in fact, I think that was the furthest thing from your mind. I don't live inside your head, so i can't speak to the reasons why you felt that cheating was an acceptable option for you.

 

I don't think people are saying that a bs is blameless when a marriage starts to reach a bad place, or even just becomes stale. What I think they are saying is that there are other ways of handling it. You yourself admit that yours was not a good way of handling things.

 

I will tip my hat to you though that you at least admit it. Some ws never do.

[mcjordan]

Do you really? Seriously?

 

I think they can be connected in that an unhappy marriage certainly can make one vulnerable.

 

HOWEVER, once we know we are unhappy and vulnerable, we have several options:

 

Deal with it and shore up our boundaries

Make our unhappiness abundantly clear

Do everything we can to work on the marriage

Leave

Cheat

 

All of the above are choices. If a playground bully trips me, I have no control over that. However, if I get up and punch him in the stomach, that IS my choice. No one made me do it. Perhaps I feel it is justifiable in light of what he did...but I cannot (unless I am a mealy mouthed spineless weakling with no will of my own) say he "made" me hit him. That was how I CHOSE to deal with being tripped.

 

I have no doubt countless people are miserable in their marriages, and in many of those cases it may be their spouse who is mostly at fault. That might make them miserable and vulnerable. It does NOT force them to cheat. If I give you a paper cut and you chop off my arm, I'm not going to take it too well if you insist in treating my missing arm and your paper cut the same.

 

What I hear when a WS focuses on how their BS fell short is:

It is their fault I cheated, and if they want me to stay faithful, they need to earn it by being a better spouse. If they had done less/more X, I would not have cheated.

 

And I guarantee even a spouse who is willing to work on the marriage once they are no longer grief-stricken hears the same thing.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think we have to be very very careful here.

 

I hear hints of "blaming" in this discussion... And blaming is a whole lot different that explaining.

 

Especially as waywards discussing with betrayeds...

 

Sometime ears ping and we certainly do not want any one offended.

 

I never ever blame my husband for my affair... As a matter of fact I rarely talk about my feelings pre affair.

 

I just don't do it. I do not want John to ever think that I blame him in anyway for my choice.

 

If we are both working as hard as we can on our relationship .. The pre affair condition will be addressed.

 

We are both well aware where we were..

And we make sure we never get there again.

[wmacbride]

Do you really? Seriously?

 

 

I can try and explain the situation like this.

 

My husband said he was happy, he would tell me he loved me and thank me for always being there, being dragged all over hell's half acre, having to start over about every two years somewhere new put up with him being one for long periods of time, such s the lot of a soldier's wife:laugh:

 

I suppose I should have seen the signs his PTSD was getting worse. He would wake up at night in a cold sweat, started sleeping on the floor by our bed, his exaggerated startle response, etc.. I should have pushed him harder to get help. I should have tried to keep him form his last deployment, but I didn't. I left it up to him.

 

When things started to get bad between us, I honestly didn't see it coming, as it was as if someone threw a switch in his head. He went from being a really nice guy to lashing out, being angry al the time, etc. and I didn't know why.

 

Am I responsible for his choosing to latch on to his ow and sleep with her?

 

No. he is responsible for that.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to say that a bs is perfect and hasn't done anything to harm the marriage. There were probably lots of things I did that were hurtful to him. Can I lay the blame for me doing those things at his feet?

 

No. That is on me.

[Mr. Lucky]

I think that the state of a marriage or the state of someone's happiness and the choice to cheat are two separate issues.

 

Do you really? Seriously?

 

Do you put WS's into two different categories - those that had good marriages and those that didn't ??? Slippery slope when you start trying to judge after the fact...

 

Mr. Lucky

[mcjordan]

Do you put WS's into two different categories - those that had good marriages and those that didn't ??? Slippery slope when you start trying to judge after the fact...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I think it has to do with whether we believe morality and character are a sliding scale or absolute....and whether we believe we are accountable for our actions or not.

 

I believe certain things are absolute (cheating is wrong). I also believe I am accountable for my own choices.

 

If we used stealing as an example it would be the same for me. Let's say I lost my job, I couldn't find another one, I got kicked out of my house, and I had no food. Those are all painful things. So I go to a store, see a dozen of my favorite donuts on the shelf, and my stomach growls. So I look around, shove them in my purse, and exit the store.

 

Because I believe stealing is wrong and because I believe that I am accountable for my choices, I would not believe that my stealing was justified because I was hungry. I would not say my hunger gave me no choice but to steal. And when it came time to pay for my crime, I sure as heck wouldn't point out how the donuts were right there on the shelf or that my boss shouldn't have fired me.

[wmacbride]

To my way of thinking, the aftermath of an a is like triage. You have to address the most immediate and " life threatening" injuries first. Once that has been done, then the other injuries can, and should, be addressed.

 

I guess it's all about timing

[wmacbride]

I would suspect that your wife feels she has no choice. If not, I feel very sad for her that she is expected to bear the burden for your choice. Because in this statement you ARE blaming her.

 

 

actually to extrapolate from the idea that a bs can somehow be responsible for the ws cheating, would the ws be responsible for the bs choice to have a revenge affair?

 

Of course not.

[Liam1]

 

My point was this: Was the stealing against the law even though I was hungry, and did my hunger MAKE me steal, or did I choose to.

 

So what if it is against he law. A law is a man made construct. Do you still believe you are of high character for punishing a hungry jobless man for stealing food?

 

If so, I rest my case, regarding character.

 

That poor man wasn't getting any sex and support, so I cannot in good conscience say he was wrong to betray his wife. Given that she didn't give him what he needed, cheating was fine, and it was her fault.

Well, that is true. Right? My wife did not live up to her marriage vows but denying sex, did she. She admits that. That is why our reconciliation is working.

 

If she did not accept her part, the marriage would be over. I would not be interested in continuing in a marriage with someone who thinks they are perfect and can not accept due responsibility.

 

But you did not answer my question. You seem miserable with your spouse. So unhappy and he did you wrong for ABSOLUTELY no reason, at least according to you.

 

So why are you still there? You obviously think he is responsible for all your problems. So why don't you leave as you suggested. Why make him as miserable as you are.

 

Do you think continuing to accept any blame is going to make your marriage happy? I assure you it will not.

 

 

However, because you do not believe in absolutes, it is clear why we have different views.

 

No, I don't believe in absolutes. It takes character to admit that life is far from being absolute in any way.

 

Really I think these are conversations you would prefer to have with your spouse but perhaps you two can not communicate very well so you parry with me and vent all your angst and anger against your husband here.

 

Maybe you ARE Perfect and your husband is a total lout.

 

I think counseling may help you talk to your husband. At the very least he has a right to know how you feel so he can make a decision about whether or not he wants to waste any more time on reconciliation with someone who lives inside such a black and white world of absolutes.

 

A counselor likely would not be as kind to you as I am, either.

[Liam1]

For the record, my spouse never cheated on me. This actually made me laugh. I'm not married, and when I was, my husband was faithful. I do not believe in eternal punishment. I think a BS who cannot ever forgive and who holds the affair like a moral high ground trump card has issues and should just divorce.

 

BUT...I also believe that when you hurt someone, YOUR focus should be on what YOU can do to make that right, not on what they did to "make you do it."

 

 

Really? You are not a BS or a WS.

 

Than your presence her is somewhat odd. And, your moralistic stance is amusing.

 

So you are divorced, right? Why? Did your spouse not live up to you standard of perfection. Or, did you not live up to his?

 

Regarding focus. IMO, the focus should be on both sides. It is called compromise and compromise makes the world go 'round and marriages last through the tough times.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Liam1

[heartwhole]

 

You obviously think your husband is a rat and a total lout. So why do you stay? How can you love someone you feel that way about?

 

If you continue refusing to accept any responsibility for the marital dysfunction, than it is highly likely your reconciliation will not work in the long run.

 

 

I don't think this is obvious, or true, from my statements.

 

We're all going along in this process doing the best we can. There have certainly been times when something has upset me seemingly out of nowhere and it took some soul-searching to figure out why. I hope you can figure out why reading this topic has evoked such a strong reaction from you that you are making generalizations about people who are simply looking for discourse and all but seething in your insinuations that their marriages won't work out. Why would it bother you either way if my marriage doesn't work? What is it about your reconciliation that this is your knee-jerk reaction to this topic?

 

(To be clear, I'm not really interested in your reply as I have been turned off by your making this personal. But I hope nonetheless that you can gain some insight for your own sake.)

[mcjordan]

Do you still believe you are of high character for punishing a hungry jobless man for stealing food?

 

I have never punished a hungry jobless man. In fact, I was the one who stole in my scenario. I did that because I am the one who believes stealing is wrong. In my scenario (which is not unlike a time of poverty in my life), I would go to the store owner and tell him of my plight and ask if there was anything he could spare. Or I would go to one of a dozen food banks and soup kitchens in my town and get food.

 

Honest question: DO you feel responsible for YOUR choice to cheat on your wife, and how long after your betrayed her did you begin insisting she fix herself?

 

The reason I do not share much of my own life on forums is because there are pathetically bizarre and mentally ill lawbreakers out there who will stalk you and threaten your family if they don't like what you say. I try to avoid having to go to that particular mattress.

[Liam1]

actually to extrapolate from the idea that a bs can somehow be responsible for the ws cheating, would the ws be responsible for the bs choice to have a revenge affair?

 

Of course not.

 

I think we are splitting hairs and playing semantics.

 

Let's face it if a spouse has an affair and the BS has a revenge affair. It is in part the responsibility of the person who originally cheated.

 

If my wife had a revenge affair, I would accept it as a natural and perhaps even justified reaction to my affair.

 

We would both move forward from there. Geez.

 

Lets stop playing word games. Actions have consequences. All actions. Not just the actions of a WS.

[Liam1]

I don't think this is obvious, or true, from my statements.

 

We're all going along in this process doing the best we can. There have certainly been times when something has upset me seemingly out of nowhere and it took some soul-searching to figure out why. I hope you can figure out why reading this topic has evoked such a strong reaction from you that you are making generalizations about people who are simply looking for discourse and all but seething in your insinuations that their marriages won't work out. Why would it bother you either way if my marriage doesn't work? What is it about your reconciliation that this is your knee-jerk reaction to this topic?

 

(To be clear, I'm not really interested in your reply as I have been turned off by your making this personal. But I hope nonetheless that you can gain some insight for your own sake.)

 

Gee. I could say the same exact thing about you. But I prefer to communicate. Not shut down communication.

 

If you don't believe that continuing to punish and blame and refuse to accept responsibility for the breakdown of communication in your marriage will most likely end in a failed reconciliation, don't take my word for it.....Ask your MC or read few books on the subject.

 

When your husband attempts to communicate the marital issues with you, do you tell him you are not really interested in his reply.

 

That is not a good communication style.

[Zenstudent]

I don't think Liam means that the betrayed should assume FAULT for the cheating....

 

but the breakdown of the marriage certainly falls on both partners. My affair is 100% on me...my husband is in no way responsible for my choice to cheat. But our relationship prior to my cheating is on both of us.

 

Lack of communication, dissension, anger, there are all KINDS of pre existing conditions of marriages....

 

Those are the circumstances...the atmosphere....of the conditions of the marriage.

 

Do not misconstrue circumstances for REASONS. The difference is one is a condition...and one is an excuse.

 

When you start placing blame on the other person for YOUR choice to cheat...is an excuse.

 

To simply explain where the marriage was prior to the affair....is the circumstance.

 

For example....say you have a couple who is not sexually active...they even sleep in separate bedrooms. They no longer communicate any intimacy....they are merely existing in the same house. This is the circumstance.

 

The husband....has an affair. He says to his wife....well...you would not go to bed with me. What did you expect me to do?

 

NOW...it is an excuse...because NOW it is placing blame and giving a reason to validate the affair.

 

No matter the circumstances...no matter the relationship....infidelity is not the right choice.

 

Does this make sense?

Let me clear, I really value your contributions and admire your ability to reflect and learn from life.

 

No, it doesn't make sense to me. As long as the circumstances are not being expressed, they are just circumstances that lead to the affair, but if the circumstances are being expressed, they are excuses?

 

Circumstances that lead to, reasons, causes, excuses, blaming are, to me just different phrases being used for the same purpose, deflecting responsibility.

 

I also think that you're reading Liam wrong :-)

[Joie]

I come down on the side of both the BS and the WS have responsibility for the state of the marriage. However, the BS has no responsibility for the decision to cheat.

 

My H made the choice to cheat. However BOTH of us failed to communicate for years prior to that. We both let small issues build and build. We both ignored problems.

 

In our case the actual Affair was a symptom of an underlying problem.

 

I agree with the triage analogy. We had to immediately stop the bleeding from the affair. After that we could start working on the problems that we had in our marriage.

 

NOW:

I know my lack of affection contributed to the fact my H was unhappy. He knows that my lack of affection was a result of him not being more active in our family. I know that he was spending time away from our family because he thought I was yelling all the time. I was yelling all the time because he wasn't listening to me when I told him I needed more help with the children. This hole goes deeper and deeper until we see we are BOTH to blame. We are dealing with each problem as it comes. But our actual major problem is communication.

 

None of this excuses his decision to cheat but I am hopeful the by fixing our problems in the marriage instead of cheating he will decide to talk to me LONG before it gets to that point.

[Red123]

 

 

 

Was it her fault I cheated. No that's on me. Still the circumstance in our marriage was what lead me to cheat. My wife has wisely accepted that.

 

I think your getting a negative reaction from this because it sounds really harsh, the wife wisely accepted part. However I can understand what you are trying to say by this.

 

In other marriages that I see one spouse is extremely neglectful or condescending or dismissive and that may have lead the spouse to seek appreciation elsewhere.

I can not speak to those issues, but personally, I can understand why someone living with such a demeaning person might seek and affair.

IF a spouse fails to offer love and appreciation to their spouse and they seek it elsewhere, that is an equal and opposite reaction. The BS needs to own that.

 

These statements I can relate to, and this is where I feel my story differs from a lot of BS on this forum. I had become what you describe above in the year leading to his A. I am not responsible for his A, however I'm sure I made it far easier to accept the doting of the MOW, when he would come home to complete opposite from me. Since deciding to reconcile I have owned that. He has also owned his behaviour that contributed (not all his fault) to me becoming like that, which lead to him checking out of our M. We both owned our part, he started by owning the A. I believe that some people cheat even when they have a great spouse who treat them great, and then there's some of us who have had to really change and work on things to make them great again. The A wasn't good for us, but the efforts we have made since have saved our M.

[Zenstudent]

Well, Zenstudent, I am surprised that you have the title ZEN in your screen name.

 

Your thinking is not very ZEN like.

 

I get the picture. You are perfect. I am glad there is at least one human on earth who is or at least thinks they are perfect.

Zen isn't opposed to taking responsibility for your own actions, on the contrary.

 

I haven't claimed to be perfect in any of my posts ever. Suggesting that is just passive aggressive.

 

Do you think that one need to be perfect to deserve respect, loyalty and fidelity in a marriage?

[Mrs. John Adams]

Liam....

 

Are you blame shifting? After reading everything that you have written today....I think i misread your first few posts.

 

You and your wife are responsible for the condition of your relationship pre affair.

 

But you are solely responsible for your choice to cheat....and if you use the condition of your relationship as an excuse for that decision...and are saying your wife is also responsible....then you are blame shifting....and you are absolutely wrong.

 

I am not here to condemn...and you have to handle your reconciliation the best way you know how....but i will be honest with you and tell you that...i fear that you may repeat your infidelity if you do not hold yourself 100% accountable for your choice.

 

You and i are totally to blame for our choice my friend....regardless of how bad the relationship may have been.

[thecharade]

I cannot speak for everyone's marriage, but I can speak for several that I know of.

 

I said I was unhappy. I went to IC. I begged. I was depressed. But, I did not want to blow up my world . . . and stupidly, an A felt like a bandaid. I knew it was wrong, but finally something felt nice to me.

 

When a BS does not divorce a lying snake of a WS, everyone says, "Of course. It's hard. No reason to rush." But when a WS does not want to blow up their lives by asking for D, so they wrongly and unfairly put a bandaid on the problem and have an A, they are evil?

 

No matter the cause of your unhappiness, divorce often feels like a last resort. Last.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Because cheating is never the answer....

 

cheating means you did it behind your spouses back....you lied....and you never asked their opinion and it is not fair...and it only causes destruction...not only to the marriage but to ALL of the people involved. Because i felt bad...I have a reason to lie and cheat and make someone else feel bad?

 

If you have a terrible marriage....then separate....and set conditions ...We are allowed to date...etc. Then it isn't cheating...because each spouse has agreed....or divorce.

 

But don't cheat.....because it won't fix anything.

[mcjordan]

I cannot speak for everyone's marriage, but I can speak for several that I know of.

 

I said I was unhappy. I went to IC. I begged. I was depressed. But, I did not want to blow up my world . . . and stupidly, an A felt like a bandaid. I knew it was wrong, but finally something felt nice to me.

 

When a BS does not divorce a lying snake of a WS, everyone says, "Of course. It's hard. No reason to rush." But when a WS does not want to blow up their lives by asking for D, so they wrongly and unfairly put a bandaid on the problem and have an A, they are evil?

 

No matter the cause of your unhappiness, divorce often feels like a last resort. Last.

 

I can understand and sympathize with this frustration. It does not change the fact that betraying one's spouse is wrong. We can paint all sorts of dismal marital pictures, but at the end of the day.....you can choose NOT to cope by cheating. Until a WS can say without hesitation, "Yes, my choice was MY choice and no one else's, and the way to prevent it from ever happening again is for ME to become the kind of person who will NOT allow my character and morality to be determined by someone else," then they really haven't owned what they did. It takes awhile to get there, I know. But a WS who is still hiding behind their marriage as an excuse or is hinging their future faithfulness on whether their BS becomes good enough has a long way to go.