The danger of rose colored glasses?

[Liam1]

Ito all boils down to excuses and anyone that had an affair can come up with an excuse. So, no, I very much disagree.

 

 

Well, John, you said in your prior post:

 

Originally Posted by JohnAdams

 

 

Had I "met her needs". She may not have had an affair.

 

 

Had she not had an affair, I would have never had a RA.

 

I don't know, maybe I am just totally not speaking English but heck, my friend, that sure sounds as if you are placing part of the blame on the BS in both cases.

 

You can play semantics by saying it's a reason but not an excuse, but you are still simply playing word salad games.

[Liam1]

Liam,

 

my husband had an affair years ago.

 

So. Don't get too cozy. If you are still being derisive, condescending, disrespectful and wise cracking, you are not out of the woods.

 

I can assure you that constantly berating your husband, will not make him happy.

 

Marriage is always a work in progress. Becoming complacent causes problems.

[JohnAdams]

Well, John, you said in your prior post:

 

 

 

I don't know, maybe I am just totally not speaking English but heck, my friend, that sure sounds as if you are placing part of the blame on the BS in both cases.

 

You can play semantics by saying it's a reason but not an excuse, but you are still simply playing word salad games.

 

 

 

I guess that is the nice thing about internet forums. We can discuss and disagree.

[mcjordan]

Yuck yuck.

 

wmacbride, I hope, you are not making silly wisecrack comments to your spouse who is attempting to reconcile, because, If so, you are NOT doing your part to make the reconciliation work.

 

You are being derisive, and condescending and disrespecful. No marriage can survive that in the long haul

 

This is completely insensitive. And likely her WH would not be upset or offended because it seems he understands her pain and his causing of it.

[mcjordan]

Well, John, you said in your prior post:

 

 

 

I don't know, maybe I am just totally not speaking English but heck, my friend, that sure sounds as if you are placing part of the blame on the BS in both cases.

 

You can play semantics by saying it's a reason but not an excuse, but you are still simply playing word salad games.

 

Is this how you communicated with your wife through the years, acting like an attorney proving his case? If so, that may be why she felt disconnected and a lack of libido. I would never make myself vulnerable to this style of communication - this "aha! gotcha! I'm right" type thing.

[Mr. Lucky]

You and I both agree that the BS was doing something to cause the WS to have an affair.

 

Call it placing blame, accepting responsibility, whatever.

 

It all boils down to the same thing and that is: Unless there are mental or addiction issues as a causative factor, the one GLARING factor in a majority of affairs is that the spouse was not meeting the other spouses needs in some way.

 

What a bunch of nonsense. Any spouse could say their partner doesn't meet their needs in some way so I guess we're all fomenting infidelity.

 

There is only one person that can cause the WS to have an affair. Hint - it's not the BS...

 

Mr. Lucky

[wmacbride]

That is none of your business. It's not pertinent to the larger issue of BOTH accepting blame. It's simply a nosy question.

 

So, since you like nosy questions, here's one for you: would you have preferred that your spouse simply one day came home and asked you for a divorce?

 

Also, If you are so willing to foist blame solely on your spouse, why in heaven's name do you stay married to him?

 

I mean you think you seem to want to browbeat your spouse into repentance and submission.

 

But that is not love.

 

BTW: The question is meant to be rhetorical. No response is needed.

 

Okay, so it's my fault that my husband came back from combat with PTSD? Am I to blame for him coming home broken? Am I to blame for him having to wipe the blood off his face after the guy sitting next to him in the vehicle they were riding is was shot and killed? Am I to blame after another guy he was working with stepped on an IED and was killed? I am to blame for him having to carry the coffin of another guy he worked with who'd committed suicide because he could't take it anymore, and him coming home and saying maybe the guy had the right idea? I'm also to blame for him being shattered after seeing just how badly some people in this world will treat women and children. I suppose I am also to blame for his nightmares, his cold sweats, his simmering anger, his choosing to huddle on the floor at night , trying to sleep while he shivered and shook, holding on my to hand and silently crying. I'm to blame for having to walk on eggshells because I didn't want to upset him or add to his burden or cause another one of his mood swings? He;d go from telling me me loved me and he was so lucky to have me in his life and he was so happy, to him being so incredibly sad.

 

Yep, by your accounting, that is all my fault.

 

 

Again, no offense, but until you go through what he has gone through, and what our family went through, you don't know jack ( expletive deleted)

 

 

I don't blame him for his PTSD. I don't blame him for not knowing what to do about it. I do blame him for having an A.

 

Yes, I would rather have had him tell me, if he was so incredibly unhappy with me that he wanted to look elsewhere for whatever it was he needed, that he wanted a divorce. As it stands, I stayed with him because I love the man, more than you will ever know. He has worked his @ss of to fix himself and face things I can't begin to imagine. That takes huge strength of character.

 

I couldn't do that for him. I couldn't fix him. He had to do that for himslef. I could be there for him, I could hold him when he needed it and listen to him when he just needed to talk. I did those things.

[wmacbride]

So. Don't get too cozy. If you are still being derisive, condescending, disrespectful and wise cracking, you are not out of the woods.

 

I can assure you that constantly berating your husband, will not make him happy.

 

Marriage is always a work in progress. Becoming complacent causes problems.

 

Oh for pete's sake.

 

Who says I am constantly berating him? I don;t know where you are getting that from.

[wmacbride]

This is completely insensitive. And likely her WH would not be upset or offended because it seems he understands her pain and his causing of it.

 

 

For all the pain he caused me, the pain he experienced behind all of it was worse.

 

I don't know how he coped with all of it. It was really bad for him.

[mcjordan]

I can therefore see a WS getting entrenched in the belief that they were indeed "right" to cheat on some level.

 

I think everyone can "see" it or even comprehend it. Most of us just see it for what it is....blameshifting.

 

"I wouldn't have dropped a bomb on our marriage if you'd been doing your job. Oh, and you better not be mad at me either, or else I'll leave you or do it again."

 

Nauseating.

[flickofthecoin]

You and I both agree that the BS was doing something to cause the WS to have an affair.

 

I gave my WH cause to have an affair. I withheld sex and affection. He had an affair.

 

My WH gave me cause to have an affair. He disrespected my family, relied on me financially because he wasn't putting enough effort into his business/didn't want a job, hardly helped around the house. I did not have an affair.

 

So while it is all well and good to point out that a BSs failings created a situation where WSs felt the need to have an affair, also consider that there are people out there who DID NOT cheat despite the **** sandwich handed to them by their spouse.

[katielee]

So while it is all well and good to point out that a BSs failings created a situation where WSs felt the need to have an affair,

 

in what world do people NEED to have an affair?

They need to act honorably and with respect. There are a thousand other options than affair.

Before I had an affair some of the interactions between hubby and I were downright abusive. So what. There were needs not being met at the VERY least. So what. I didn't need to have an affair. I needed to be a mature adult and deal with these issues in a way that honored myself and my marriage. Having an affair was the least honorable thing I could chose to deal with all that.

[heartwhole]

I just can't relate to people who only act morally when they are treated perfectly . . . My job doesn't treat me right, therefore I have a right to steal from the till . . . My spouse doesn't have sex with me, therefore I have a right to secret sex with someone else . . . These internet posters lack the clarity that I possess, therefore I have a right to attack them personally . . .

 

My character is not dependent on the actions of others. It's as simple as that.

[waterwoman]

 

I don't owe you any explanation. Talk to your own husband if you have lost interest in sex because of something he is or is not doing.

 

I think your logic sounds like a projection. Something rooted in your own feelings based on your personal experience.

 

I wasn't asking you for one. I couldnt give a stuff why your wife doesnt want to have sex but i would imagine you would. But it is always worth looking for the root of a problem don't you think? Perhaps not..

 

Don't we usually base our opinions on personal experience?

[Midwestmissy]

Sounds like Liam was super deprived and needed sex. It's very definite that she withheld, or so it seems. That's not always the case. I was told everything I was doing wrong and I made changes, because if the marriage is bad and it's all my fault, then I go down the list and voila, happy again.

 

Except. In my case I was not the problem. All the changes weren't even noticed. I got a job I volunteered I made new dinners I bought lingerie. Nothing. I wasn't the problem.

 

We can never know if Liam would have stopped the A if his wife had made a change. He's also saying that his wife knew what he needed and did nothing to remedy. He's also said the lack of sex was the only issue he had with his wife. But that's not the case with everyone. We still had sex, went to hotels, etc. where I got to hear about how unappreciative I was. I bought marriage books and had a life coach and a marital therapist and you name it. Fixing me would fix my marriage. No. He had a huge problem and he projected his crap on me and of course tap dancing like a crazy fool did not stop his affair.

 

So the bs does not always have responsibility. I could have stood on my head and spit nickels - he wouldn't have stopped texting her and hooking up.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I would like to know

 

Did you..Liam....pursue every avenue available for "fixing" the sexual problems....

 

I.E. Did she see a doctor to make sure everything was in working order....hormones, thyroid, no pain....etc.......

 

did you pursue a therapist to make sure everything was ok mentally....no sexual abuse or molestation's or resentment toward you....etc..........

 

Before you pursued having sex with another woman?

 

 

If you did not....then you jumped to conclusions....and took it upon yourself to engage sexually outside of your marriage....without asking your wife if she approved.

 

Therefore...your affair is 100% on you....and 0% on your wife simply because you were horny.

 

Your wife did nothing wrong...except withhold sex.....and there may have been underlying issues for her as to why to did not want to screw you.

 

I am not trying to crucify you...I simply want to understand how you can in any way blame your wife for your choice to cheat.

[Gloria25]

Exactly. So why are we splitting hairs.

 

You and I both agree that the BS was doing something to cause the WS to have an affair.

 

Call it placing blame, accepting responsibility, whatever.

 

It all boils down to the same thing and that is: Unless there are mental or addiction issues as a causative factor, the one GLARING factor in a majority of affairs is that the spouse was not meeting the other spouses needs in some way.

 

Yes a WS cannot SOLELY blame the BS for his/her decision to cheat, but to say that a BS is justified in starving their WS isn't right either.

 

So who is worst? The cheater or the person that influenced their will to step out?

 

So using Liam1's case, his wife's denying him sex has no repercussions? Oh, it's probably Liam1's fault that she didn't have sex with him?

 

Thing is, denying sex is like cheating, IMO. Sex for men is how he connects with a woman - especially the one he loves. Telling him no sex is cutting him off at the knees. While women can enjoy sex, in a RL, they can get the connection and satisfaction from their man in other ways that don't necessarily require intercoursre (ie, him supporting her emotionally, financially)...so IMO she is "cheating" cuz she's getting her needs met from him while he doesn't get sex.

 

So again, who is worst?

 

Look, thing is, the BS and WS can spend the rest of their lives keeping score on who's worst or taking responsibility and moving on.

 

Yes, discussing the affair is essential to move on "if" the discussion is meant to find and fix the kinks in the marriage - not to have something to hold over each other's head, to wallow in misery and/or to keep score.

 

At the end of the day, the WS may not be trying to pull the wool over the BS' eyes by acting perfect...the WS may feel euphoria and excitement at trying to rekindle the marriage; may want to be on best behavior to make up for loss/pain caused.....BUT, you won't know unless you give it time. Yes, you have to risk allowing the BS coming back. But if you make up your mind to give the BS a chance, you have no right to badger them about the affair. Like Laim1 said, if you hate the WS that much then let them go, don't take them back to punish and/or torture them.

[OneLov]

So using Liam1's case, his wife's denying him sex has no repercussions? Oh, it's probably Liam1's fault that she didn't have sex with him?

 

Actually, using this logic it would be his fault. He must have done something that caused her to withhold sex. Or it's at least partly his fault. But I disagree.

 

I would say the act(s) of withholding sex was 100% her fault because she chose to not have sex. Isn't it wrong to say Liam should be responsible for her choice? So isn't it absurd to think she should be responsible for his choice?

 

Factors and causation are not the same.

 

We are all responsible for our choices despite the factors influencing our decisions.

[Mr. Lucky]

So using Liam1's case, his wife's denying him sex has no repercussions?

 

Sure it does. He can:

 

- discuss his unhappiness with her

- suggest MC

- go to IC

- separate from her

- divorce her

- discuss an open marriage

 

Anyone in that situation has a number of choices. To suggest infidelity is the only alternative doesn't make sense...

 

Mr. Lucky

[katielee]

on.

 

Yes, discussing the affair is essential to move on "if" the discussion is meant to find and fix the kinks in the marriage - not to have something to hold over each other's head, to wallow in misery and/or to keep score.

 

.

 

I think more needs to be discussed than what is wrong in the marriage. More like, why did you drop a nuclear bomb in it when there were so many other options.

Easy - what the WS did is worse.

[heartwhole]

I had an experience this week that made me think of this discussion.

 

I recently switched from a cleaning service I was happy with because I need a little more flexibility and help due to health problems. We support a local nonprofit that provides business training and coaching to people from disadvantaged backgrounds who want to start small businesses. I hired a cleaner with nursing skills through them.

 

She was with me for maybe 6 weeks. The first day, I knew she had worked too quickly to be thorough. I've had cleaners for 10 years and know how long it takes to clean my house. But I thought, OK, we're new, I'll stay positive and keep trying to address things little by little.

 

As the weeks passed, it was clear just how much she wasn't doing -- dust built up on blinds, surfaces, stairs. Splatter was never cleaned off of cabinets. Smudgy windows from little faces and fingers were never cleaned. Each week I would point out one or two things but saw little change. She'd clean the one smudge but never started looking for smudges everywhere.

 

I was obviously unhappy. This was supposed to be an improvement over my old service -- they are the most expensive in town and I was paying her more -- and all it was doing was adding stress as my house got grimier and grimier.

 

There are many people who will never lay it all on the line with the cleaner and will just fester in unhappiness and unmet needs and expectations. I looked down the road and saw that this was unlikely to ever get better, so I told her we needed to talk. I explained why I was unhappy and asked if she could accommodate me. She could not. (That's a whole other story -- she exploded with gripes about all of her clients who expect a "deep cleaning" for the price of a "basic cleaning", so I'm obviously not the only person complaining, and she's obviously not internalizing it as anything but baseless complaining). So I fired her. I figured out that she could not meet my needs, I gave her one honest chance to rise up to where I needed her to be to be happy, and then I exited the relationship. If I was unwilling to fire her, then it was on me to accept that I was a willing participant in this relationship and to figure out how to make my life easier and better within the confines of that relationship. Just because she was a crappy cleaner doesn't mean I was justified in lying or cheating her or any other behavior that is beneath me.

 

It takes two people to be involved in a vicious cycle. Having an affair because you have gotten yourself into a vicious cycle is ramping that vicious cycle up to a whole other level. No one is forcing you to respond to an unfavorable situation by making even more unfavorable choices. You always have choices. Being an adult is making choices that you can feel good about that meet your needs and obligations in a healthy manner.

 

It wasn't easy for me to fire her. When she started yelling I was shaking and I had a good cry when she left. But I absolutely was not going to continue in a relationship that wasn't working for me. WH shared this story with a friend who said, "Wow, my wife would never have fired her. She would just have been angry and frustrated forever." A lot of people fester due to inertia and wanting to avoid things getting ugly. But that doesn't change the fact that you are willing participant in a vicious cycle.

 

I wouldn't remain in a sexless marriage. Having an affair is not an option for me -- it will never end well, it's dishonest, it's dangerous. But there are plenty of options. If I had a husband who was impotent, then we could use equipment instead. If emotional issues were the cause behind our lack of sex, then those could be addressed. Ultimately, if it couldn't be worked out, it would probably be because the issues that caused the lack of sex couldn't be fixed. The lack of sex is a symptom of other issues. Unwillingness to do the hard work of addressing issues and leaving relationships with unfixable issues doesn't make immoral and unhealthy choices suddenly moral and healthy.

[katielee]

That was a great example heart. Having an affair to deal with and cope with marital issues is one of the most passive aggressive actions ive ever known.

I'm so embarrassed that was my choice. I'm not stupid but duh!

[heartwhole]

That was a great example heart. Having an affair to deal with and cope with marital issues is one of the most passive aggressive actions ive ever known.

I'm so embarrassed that was my choice. I'm not stupid but duh!

 

Thanks Katielee. Obviously it's easier to deal with a business relationship than a marriage.

 

It was still hard to make that decision. I want to support the organization and know she didn't grow up seeing people with professional skills. She hasn't been trained as a cleaner. I assumed she knew what to do, but she doesn't. I thought maybe I could teach and help her but at a certain point you must look at the situation clearly. Know what you want and need, know what the other person wants and needs, and see how to strike an agreement you're both happy with.

 

I felt like I earned one of those "I adult-ed" stickers.

[Zenstudent]

Well, that is absolutely true, ZenStudent. Affairs come in all shapes and sizes, and while all are wrong and hurtful, they are not motivated by the same level of wrong and hurtful. I do think there are two kinds of cheaters: broken from the start and broken at the time.

 

I know a serial cheating guy (I have mentioned him before) who has cheated on every girlfriend he ever had, and now he is cheating on his W. He has been broken from the start. And it is a conquest type of cheating, the rush of "getting" as many ego boosts as he can. He does not admit to any of this, but I see things and pay attention. Where does his W fit into this? Well . . . I do not know her very well, but I believe he cheated both with her and on her while they were dating. So, ugh . . . why did she want him? He is NOT, and never was, marriage material. But when she catches him--and she will--I know two things with certainty: she will blame the OW and she will be devastated and shocked by his behavior. She will NOT divorce him. And she will not see that she brought this pain on herself by marrying this guy in the first place. He was broken from the start and she was equally broken for marrying him.

 

I was also broken from the start, and so is my H. I picked a man - child who wanted a mommy, and then (shocker!) I was unhappy. As a recovering codependent in the truest sense, I have always picked people who needed me instead of picking healthy relationships. But even though miserable, I was way too codependent to choose divorce. No one in my family would support me. (FOO issues--everything is always my fault.) So even with IC and anti-depressants, I was in crisis. Lost 20 lbs. and I wasn't over weight. I couldn't even smile. If my AP (exBF) hadn't written to say Hi, I most likely would have tried to kill myself. I was broken, broken, broken. A broken person cannot figure out how to make a healthy choice. Of course my exH now sees how much work I was doing and how badly I tried to fix the dynamic, and he is full of regret. He doesn't care about the A because he is losing his M and he has been in IC for three years. He knows I was wrong, and he knows he was wrong.

 

I take responsibility for the A.

My exH takes responsibility for the D.

It's all painful and ugly.

 

Is every relationship like this? No, but more often than not, the BS tolerate wayward or selfish or alarming behavior long before the A took place. They allowed conflict avoidance or powerlessness or parent-child dynamic or no SC or signs of depression or workaholic lifestyles or disconnect or disrespect or whatever.

 

Can I ask, which is worse: your spouse wants a divorce and gives you NO say. It just happens. OR your spouse has an A and gives you NO say. It just happens.

 

Would it be better if people did not cheat but instead up and left and divorced? I think not.

 

It is very true that women initiate most divorces and men do not want to get or be divorced. Most experts feel that yes, men report being "happy" in their marriages, but it is because A) men are out of touch with their feelings and inner emotions, B) women 'run' families and men feel they would lose that entire side of their lives, and C) men often do not even realize when they are unhappy. Until it is too late. Isn't that the saying--women have affairs so they can get divorced (like me) and men have affairs so they can stay married?

 

I know it all sucks, and I so regret my whole experience with this stupidity. I have done a lot more IC and tons of work, and I will never avoid my problems and hide from reality like that again. I am sorry that anyone has to go through this at all, but I go back to the original notion of owning all of our mistakes and traumas to avoid being victims, so that we can all feel power. There are always lessons to be learned that have nothing to do with blaming other people. It is a stage though; people can't own any part of it until they have worked through all of the other emotions. I have been betrayed, and I know that process takes time. But when time went by, I saw what my own role was and vowed not to make those particular mistakes ever again.

 

I still feel that when the time is right, it is important for us to see our role in causing or contributing to our own problems.

 

I want to address this post - it's a thoughtful and well meaning post, and there is something to think about, so thanks for sharing.

 

I've commented on your "broken picker" point of view before in your own thread, so I'll just re-iterate in short:

 

"Theoretically, I guess you can put the blame for infidelity on the BS for having a totally broken spouse-picker.

 

But if I'm to buy it, I would request that all cheaters should wear a sign saying "I'm gonna betray you" - otherwise I'm not quite sure how you would expect me to pick a non-broken person if the issues don't surface untill later...?"

 

I'm close to five years past d-day now, and I can tell you that this s*** has broken parts of me. My wife and I have an OK life together, but A-related thoughts, doubts and images still enters my mind every single day. I've looked to eastern philosophies to try and find some peace and let go of the outcome, which is good - I have my zen moments, but unfortunately not all the time (that's why I'm still a student), not the way Liam understands it, nor the way most other people see it.

 

But, yes, I've learned a lot from the experience and have IMO matured a lot. I've learned not to take any cr^p from anyone anymore - and that's a good thing, I guess. I've also learned not to put anyone on a pedestral, because it hurts too much when they fall.

 

However, this post from you as a fWS and the mind bugling, passive aggressive and deflecting posts we've seen from a wayward in this thread, reinforces me in the belief that staying together after infidelity simply isn't worth it. The rose colored glasses are definitely removed.

 

Because chances are, that either the wayward thinks it's the BS' fault that they cheated, or the BS has a broken picker, which means they are with the wrong spouse in the first place. This also means that repetitions are likely to occur.

 

I know there are exceptions to this, like so many others, I like the Adams' story and some of the other successfull reconciliations and I also believe that having children at home is a mitigating factor.

 

But as a rule of thumb, in most cases, I believe D is the best answer for both spouses. This in answer to your question whether to prefer D or A - definitely D because infidelity messes with your brain on so many levels - your sense of up and down, true or false, reality or dream, fake or real - everything is in question.

[Mrs. John Adams]

ZEN....I agree with you. I think in many many cases the best answer is indeed divorce. I will even say...it was probably the RIGHT answer for MR. Adams.

 

But I think in SOME relationships....there is SOMETHING between the two individuals....that they HANG on for. I believe this is true in our case. I would have understood if John had divorced me....and I think for many many years I even halfway expected it. I was NOT a model wayward.....I did so many things wrong.....but I did enough RIGHT....that he hung on hoping that i would eventually see the light. I put forth ACTIONS that proved to him...I wanted the relationship as much as he did.

 

and I will tell you....I get pissy when i read Waywards posting here and blaming the betrayed or picking them apart.

 

I get angry when i see what is clearly blame shifting to me.

 

So I truly get what you are saying....and i even agree with it.

 

There are a lot of people who will try reconciliation.....and will fail....even years later.

 

There are a lot of folks who will simply "settle" because they don't want to give up....and i think my John settled for many years.

 

But we cannot determine the best decision for others. We can warn of the danger of their words and their actions. I see many people here that i think are making a mistake but I cannot make decisions for them.

 

I think anyone in reconciliation less than 5 years....is still in great danger of failing. When they come here and declare how well they are doing...and they have answers for others and recommendations for others.....I get nervous....because i know they have only just begun....and even if they are doing EVERYTHING by the book.....they have so very much more to learn.

 

I learn something new EVERYDAY here on loveshack...it is a process...a lifelong process.