Lack Of Dates

[Shining One]

Who cares.

 

Leigh and her boyfriend seem to be figuring it out. From what I'm reading she seems very concerned with the big picture. Nobody can say who pays what and when and where and whatever. They seem to have an understanding.

I'm curious, hence why I asked the question. Like many others, I'm confused by Leigh's posts. Numbers help put things in perspective and provide understanding. At this point in time, I have no idea what Leigh's definition of "fair" is.

 

If she says she also aims for a 50/25/25 split, then I owe her an apology for my assumptions. Whether or not her calculations are accurate/reasonable (as pointed out by others) is another matter.

[No_Go]

I'm born in Eastern Europe but never dated guys there. Looking at my sister's BF though, he pays for absolutely everything, if she wants to go somewhere and he can't afford it, she pays for herself and leaves im behind, which is sad IMO.

 

Then I lived in the Netherlands for a number of years, and although I also haven't dated anybody there myself, I watched my friends behavior. As in Scandinavia, men and women pay equally. Almost too equally I'd say (e.g. my friends with live-in BFs/GFs separated groceries etc on different shelves so everybody is aware who buys what and eat only theirs - also sad IMO.

 

I moved to the US and was in long term on/off relationship with a Latin man - here your stereotype doesn't meet my experience - I payed for nearly everything (if anything, we were splitting, but I was paying most of the dates for both - and he was 19 years older than me ... to break another stereotype;)).

 

With American men - my first long-term experience - he ripped me off I was not only paying for dates but also all his living expenses.

Second long-term BF (current) - we tend to split equally living expenses, for dates he's more than happy to let me pay for both, although he picked some too, we very rarely split

(I actually very rarely split with friends too - if the bill is not extortionate and I'm out with 1-3 girlfriends, I usually pick the entire tab, or someone else does the same).

 

The only guy that ever insisted paying (and was not sublimely happy if I reject the offer and pay for both myself ) was an Indian man that I've seen just for a month or so, so I don't know how would it be long term.

 

Just wanted to say you have a good point here! To each their own. I live in Scandinavia (I am not born here but lived here for 18 years), and I would never accept an expensive gift from a boyfriend. It's just not me. I've dumped guys for bringing me flowers on the first date or on March 8 (International Women's Day) because that day to me does not symbolize flowers and chocolate, it symbolizes the women's fight for equality. I hate getting flowers generally - I think they are a waste of money and I prefer to pay for my own dates. I feel uncomfortable when a man pays for me, because it would make me feel like I owe him something or he has 'paid' for my company. All the men I've dated and the one I am seeing currently HATE the women who have the princess attitude. It just makes the men feel used and as if the women are only with them to get free food or drinks.

 

 

BUT it is great that there are men out there (I would guess the more Southern mentality - Eastern European, Latin American, Southern European, etc.) who like that relationship dynamics which simply would not work for me or my friends.

[Kamille]

 

But I have to speculate that the innate desire and preference to be spoilt versus taking charge and going 50/ 50 for dates and leisure, is UNIVERSAL: it is an inbuilt desire that is held or nit held, to varying degrees all over the world.

 

 

Leigh, you use the word UNIVERSAL and the idea that your preference is natural a lot. No, it's not true that women UNIVERSALLY want to be treated like princesses. I certainly don't want to be spoiled and treated to everything by a man. Many other women have expressed the same opinion. So wanting to be spoiled is not universal.

 

It is just a preference of yours. That said, your preference isn't natural. In fact, while there are debates about what parts of our mating preferences are natural, many scientists believe that when it comes to social practices (such as gifting or anything relating to money), the preference is the result of socialization. It might feel natural to you, but it's not physiological - it's a social preference.

 

The thing with social preferences is that they can be changed. Fortunately. Imagine what would happen if your boyfriend, heaven forbid, lost his job and couldn't spoil you for awhile. Thanks to the fact that your preference is psycho-social, you will be able to adapt and still love him in spite of the changed dynamic of your relationship.

 

You often tend to "grand theorize" your preferences, to insist that they are natural, ect. I think you do this because you struggle to just ask for what you want. I also think that claiming your preferences are natural and universal allows you not to take responsibility for your desires.

 

Ask for what you want because you want it and take responsibility for your desires.

[Lorenza]

As in Scandinavia, men and women pay equally. Almost too equally I'd say (e.g. my friends with live-in BFs/GFs separated groceries etc on different shelves so everybody is aware who buys what and eat only theirs - also sad IMO.

 

 

True, sometimes the partnerships here feel a bit too formal, but it's not in all relationships. A big advantage is that Scandinavian men also take care of the household, cook food, take fraternity leave and don't expect the woman to do all, even if she earns less.

[TunaCat]

But I have to speculate that the innate desire and preference to be spoilt versus taking charge and going 50/ 50 for dates and leisure, is UNIVERSAL: it is an inbuilt desire that is held or nit held, to varying degrees all over the world.

 

Leigh, please don't say that being spoiled is a universal desire among women. Because it's not. It may be the preference of some women (like you) but it's not a universal desire.

 

It's sure as heck not MY desire. I would rather pay 50/50 for dates/leisure activities and trips because feeling like and BEING an equal in a relationship is far more important to me than being a princess and being spoiled.

 

If I ever went on a date with someone who wanted to pay for everything that we did together, I would not be seeing them again because our core values wouldn't line up. I'm not into the traditional gender roles, so there would be no point in continuing to date someone.

[despgirl]

As in Scandinavia, men and women pay equally. Almost too equally I'd say (e.g. my friends with live-in BFs/GFs separated groceries etc on different shelves so everybody is aware who buys what and eat only theirs - also sad IMO.

 

Never met or heard of a couple where they have separate groceries! Which country was that? That sounds weird and very extreme to me. Most couple here have shared finances so all the expenses in the household are common and groceries etc are shared.

 

 

As for the stereotypes, I've dated some Eastern European guys and they were all for paying and spoiling etc, but were also more demanding/controlling which I really can't stand. But other from that, I do not have much experience, so it was only a guess

[No_Go]

The Netherlands. I have to note that most of my friends that I know doing that were PhD students = low income and quite young, which may explain it.

 

But also as Lorenza pointed out, parenting responsibilities, house tasks etc are 50/50 too. E.g. dads and moms both can take a free day a week (working 38 hours but in 4 days), so the kids have at least one parent around 4 days a week.

 

 

Never met or heard of a couple where they have separate groceries! Which country was that? That sounds weird and very extreme to me. Most couple here have shared finances so all the expenses in the household are common and groceries etc are shared.

 

 

As for the stereotypes, I've dated some Eastern European guys and they were all for paying and spoiling etc, but were also more demanding/controlling which I really can't stand. But other from that, I do not have much experience, so it was only a guess

[Leigh 87]

Leigh, you use the word UNIVERSAL and the idea that your preference is natural a lot. No, it's not true that women UNIVERSALLY want to be treated like princesses. I certainly don't want to be spoiled and treated to everything by a man. Many other women have expressed the same opinion. So wanting to be spoiled is not universal.

 

It is just a preference of yours. That said, your preference isn't natural. In fact, while there are debates about what parts of our mating preferences are natural, many scientists believe that when it comes to social practices (such as gifting or anything relating to money), the preference is the result of socialization. It might feel natural to you, but it's not physiological - it's a social preference.

 

The thing with social preferences is that they can be changed. Fortunately. Imagine what would happen if your boyfriend, heaven forbid, lost his job and couldn't spoil you for awhile. Thanks to the fact that your preference is psycho-social, you will be able to adapt and still love him in spite of the changed dynamic of your relationship.

 

You often tend to "grand theorize" your preferences, to insist that they are natural, ect. I think you do this because you struggle to just ask for what you want. I also think that claiming your preferences are natural and universal allows you not to take responsibility for your desires.

 

Ask for what you want because you want it and take responsibility for your desires.

 

 

 

I never said ALL WOMEN have the desire to be spoilt.

 

I said the urge was UNIVERSAL---- insofar as there are women all over the world who have ny and my friends preference and it isn't limited to specific countries or continents. There are some rare progressive women in Slavic statesalthough it's not the norm. Just like I seem to be the minority of western women that aren't into paying for dates.

 

If my bf lost his income I AM NOT ROTTEN. OT COURSE I then wouldn't mind that he couldn't spoiltl me. Gross. I'd be FAR MORE CONCERNED on helping him find a new job and helping him send out resumes.

 

The urge to be the feminine weak role in relationships and NOT PAY for dates and day trips and small tripas, is UNIVERSAL, and while not all women have that desire there ARE women the world over, in every country of every socio economic upbringing, who SHARE my desires to be spoint.

 

We are not hurting anyone so there is absolutely no reason why wanting the guy to oay for dates ( but be equal with everything non romantic like rent and living) IS NOT SOMETHING WE SHOULD CHANGE.

 

We have no good reason to HAVE to do things YOUR way! Sheesh.

 

Wanting to be spoilt within what a mans budget ias, while we also intend to work full timw and to contribute equally OUTSIDE the dates and wekeend trips --- IS NOT something I should change.

 

I find more than enough men who share my mentality of wanting to spoil their women.

 

And I am honest and upfront with men. I ascertain their personal preferences abd ONLY date traditional menwhen it comes to the areas of dating and paying for small trips and non expensive stuff. Andyes the 200 date he splurged on was too nuch for his income. I've learnt that frkm this thread. I felt quite upset and talked to him about NOT spending outside his means.

 

Of course he insisted he wanted to take me out nec i did make him realize that he's been slack with dates from day oje together. I then reminded him of ALL THE GENEROUS things he's doing! I told him ee can go out for cheap wine and cheese tasting ( 7 dollars a person) and free galleries which qe enjoy. 200 dinners should be for birthdays anniversary and valentine's. ...

[Leigh 87]

Leigh, please don't say that being spoiled is a universal desire among women. Because it's not. It may be the preference of some women (like you) but it's not a universal desire.

 

It's sure as heck not MY desire. I would rather pay 50/50 for dates/leisure activities and trips because feeling like and BEING an equal in a relationship is far more important to me than being a princess and being spoiled.

 

If I ever went on a date with someone who wanted to pay for everything that we did together, I would not be seeing them again because our core values wouldn't line up. I'm not into the traditional gender roles, so there would be no point in continuing to date someone.

 

I never said most girls want what I want.

 

I said it is a universal thing that it occurs EVERYWHERE.

 

I didn't suggest that all women feel it --- just that it transcends borders and countries and races.

 

And that's great you enjoy paying your share. I don't when it comes to the actual dates and romance like trios away and day outings but I absolutely want to get my degree so that I can work full time and oay my own darn rent and daily necess.i DO NOT WANT to depend on a partner for that.

 

During college I work part time and he has insisted on me NOT working full time because I tried it and had to drop my college subjects becauseI took a full time role kast year and I don'thave the intellectual capacity to work 8 hours a day and study 8 hours a day.

 

Him paying rent so that I only haveto work parttime during podiatry degree doesn't make me a princess. It means that I have a generous boyfriend.

 

I spend half of my income on him; I pay the monthly phone plans, I bought us the phones and he pays weekly rent znd most groceries. I buy my own food when at college and I throq in a 50 when we go shopping most of the time.

 

I am hardly spoilt in suchan offensive way that I need to change.

 

Romance and dates the man pays. Everything else, I want to be a professional who paysmy own darn rent and basic living expenses!

 

I want a dress? I'll have a full time professional job and I'll buy my own darn dress thanks! BUT, I do prefer that a man is so generous and into spoiling that maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 times, the man treatsme to the dress.

 

Note: I don't expect a man to pay for the vast majority of my luxuries bar the occasional dress maybe 2 or 3 times a year and once a fortnight dates he can AFFORD.

[HopeForTomorrow]

Him paying rent so that I only haveto work parttime during podiatry degree doesn't make me a princess. It means that I have a generous boyfriend.

 

It actually means you have much more than a generous boyfriend. You have one who loves you enough to help finance your education and your future success. Women would kill for this. As someone said earlier in this thread, this gift he has given you is something that you will ALWAYS have. No one can ever take that away from you. It is priceless. And "generous" doesn't even begin to cover it. Do you understand the value of the gift that he has given you? No amount of dates or dresses even begin to cover it.

 

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone thinks you are a "princess" because he is doing this for you. I suspect some may think that because, despite what he is doing for you, you are focusing on paying for dates and buying dresses.

 

I realize you are young (I actually thought you were much younger but I see you are 29). Still, you have a lot of life in front of you, and I am way ahead of you on that. I think that you need to stop focusing on the small stuff and see the Big Picture. These issues, like going on dates and who pays and who buys a dress, and also.... will you be able to afford skincare which may have been in another thread... is taking your focus away from your FUTURE - the big picture, and who you are with. Who you are with, how you feel about him, what he does for you, and what you do for him.

 

I truly wish you well. I can promise you that these things you worry about now will fade into the background as you embark on your professional and married life (or at least, I hope they do).

[Leigh 87]

Married, not married or FWB I will never ve into men splitting the check of wanting to taje turns with paying for dates. Period.

[Leigh 87]

I still have to pay for my degree. About 30 to 40K.

 

He pays rent.

 

And no nice guy that has a full time job would actually suggest that their gf work full time, in Australia, to support her full time studies.

 

It just isn't the way it works here. Full time students just aren't expected to work full time. Because the taxpayer prefers students get a very small allowance that means that they only have to work part time.

 

By moving into a new place with him soon

I won't be entitled to as much or any government help fkr my full time studies. Only a really merciless person would actually WANT their gf to work full time around a 45 hour a week study load, when he is in the position to work full time to support her.

 

It doesn't mean he is paying for my degree. He is being a generous person. U am paying the 40K off my degree after I graduate.

 

I have never actually met a guy who expected their student gf to work full time by the way. They all did a little more of their equal share so thst the girl only had to work part time.

[clia]

Married, not married or FWB I will never ve into men splitting the check of wanting to taje turns with paying for dates. Period.

 

Based on your other posts, it appears that at some point in the next four or five years, you and your boyfriend will be making about the same income.

 

Assuming you are married to him at that time, do you still expect him to pay for all dates and trips out of his salary? Or will you pool your money? It just seems a little strange to expect him to pay for all those expenses once you are married and making a commensurate income. And I'm not talking about splitting the check at a restaurant, but just in terms of the general budgeting.

[HopeForTomorrow]

I have never actually met a guy who expected their student gf to work full time by the way. They all did a little more of their equal share so thst the girl only had to work part time.

 

Well, then you should meet my ex-husband.

 

I have 11 years of post-high school education (I hold a doctor of medicine (MD) degree and a doctor of pharmacy (PharmD) degree). I did that all on my own. I paid for it -- most of the time I worked at least 30 hours a week. I was not from a family that could pay. So I paid my own way. Before I ever met my ex.

 

Then I met my (now ex) husband, who (after I graduated) decided to go back to school and get his doctor of pharmacy degree and an MBA. While he was doing that, I worked full-time in an EXTREMELY stressful job to put him through school and I also was a full-time Master's student. I also had 2 children under the age of 2. I defended my Master's thesis when my youngest son was 2 weeks old.

 

I am not from your country, but I honestly think that thankfulness, empathy, and lack of being 'entitled' are things that should be universal. (Given your definition of 'universal' as explained earlier). Thanks.

 

And BTW, I wasn't even 29 years old yet after all this happened. It's all relative I guess.

[lino]

I still have to pay for my degree. About 30 to 40K.

 

He pays rent.

 

And no nice guy that has a full time job would actually suggest that their gf work full time, in Australia, to support her full time studies.

 

It just isn't the way it works here. Full time students just aren't expected to work full time. Because the taxpayer prefers students get a very small allowance that means that they only have to work part time.

 

By moving into a new place with him soon

I won't be entitled to as much or any government help fkr my full time studies. Only a really merciless person would actually WANT their gf to work full time around a 45 hour a week study load, when he is in the position to work full time to support her.

 

It doesn't mean he is paying for my degree. He is being a generous person. U am paying the 40K off my degree after I graduate.

 

I have never actually met a guy who expected their student gf to work full time by the way. They all did a little more of their equal share so thst the girl only had to work part time.

 

 

What a load of rubbish. No one here prefers students to get an allowance! Especially one who is almost 30!

 

You should already be working full time and be funding the HECS of other young students.

 

HECS is a great system but not when someone is sponging off it and living through their hard working boyfriend. That is princess mentality and nothing more.

 

You're exactly the type that fuels the argument for idiotic conservatives here that call great systems like HECS 'socialist'

 

Get a job, work and pay for your own rent and lifestyle like we all had to.

[lino]

Also, paying for stuff isn't a 'masculine' thing, that's just a weak excuse for you not wanting to pay your own way.

 

Paying for things is a human trait, not gender specific.

[Leigh 87]

What a load of rubbish. No one here prefers students to get an allowance! Especially one who is almost 30!

 

You should already be working full time and be funding the HECS of other young students.

 

HECS is a great system but not when someone is sponging off it and living through their hard working boyfriend. That is princess mentality and nothing more.

 

You're exactly the type that fuels the argument for idiotic conservatives here that call great systems like HECS 'socialist'

 

Get a job, work and pay for your own rent and lifestyle like we all had to.

 

I don't have the intellectual capacity to work full time and study full time.

 

No mature age students in my degree work full time. They ALL depend on Aus study and PART TIME work.

 

Pretty much no student here works full time. Most work part time and rely on government help.

 

Ask ALL the lecturers.

 

They ALL urge full time students to ONLY WORK PART TIME.

 

Why is that? Because it's not reason to expect full time students to work 40 hours a week on top of 40 hrs study. ...

 

Everyone in my particular degree agrees with me.

[SammySammy]

I don't have the intellectual capacity to work full time and study full time.

 

No mature age students in my degree work full time. They ALL depend on Aus study and PART TIME work.

 

Pretty much no student here works full time. Most work part time and rely on government help.

 

Ask ALL the lecturers.

 

They ALL urge full time students to ONLY WORK PART TIME.

 

Why is that? Because it's not reason to expect full time students to work 40 hours a week on top of 40 hrs study. ...

 

Everyone in my particular degree agrees with me.

 

That's laughable.

 

Those are generalizations and can't possibly be true. You and your lecturers can't possibly know what other students are capable of.

 

I earned my highest grades when I worked full-time. Having a full-time job forced me to focus.

 

You're full of excuses and justifications for your behavior. That's fine. But, please don't try to use other people to normalize what you're doing. Own it without apology. That's much more respectable.

[Leigh 87]

Also, paying for stuff isn't a 'masculine' thing, that's just a weak excuse for you not wanting to pay your own way.

 

Paying for things is a human trait, not gender specific.

 

 

Well not all women want to pay their half in dates. They want to be a bit spoilt.

 

These same women also usually pay their own rent and lifestyle costs.

 

Wanting the man to pay for the dates and romance stuff isn't too princess like at all.

[Leigh 87]

That's laughable.

 

Those are generalizations and can't possibly be true. You and your lecturers can't possibly know what other students are capable of.

 

I earned my highest grades when I worked full-time. Having a full-time job forced me to focus.

 

You're full of excuses and justifications for your behavior. That's fine. But, please don't try to use other people to normalize what you're doing. Own it without apology. That's much more respectable.

 

 

 

I genuinely don't feel bad for not working full time durinf mt studies.

 

I don't believe people opting to better themsleves should work and study full time.

 

I was a fulltime wage earner paying taxes for long enough. I hadno issues withmy taxes assisting full time college students.

 

Every Australian that I know in real life doesn't believe students who opt to work part time are lazy.

 

And the lecturers ALL urge us to NOT work too many hours.

 

They ALL dissuade students from working full time in MY degree.

 

The whole cohort was gathered and told in no uncertain terms that tbis is very much a full time degree and full time work is heavily discouraged. The track record of full time working student ls failing was apparantly sky high.

 

It's laughable that you assume ALL students are able to achieve good grades while working full time and study full time.

 

How ridiculous that you assume ALL students are capable of it. LOL.

 

Yep you're abilities reflect that of every student. Makes a lot of sense.

[Leigh 87]

My bf and I both think it's ridiculous that just because of my age, that I should have to pay for my degree upfront.

 

I pay the loan back after I graduate.

 

No mature aged students would go back to college if they had to pay 40K upfront.

 

And during uni Aus study allowance is DESIGNED FOR MATURE AGED STUDENTS.

 

That's right. There is an actual allowance for students over 25. It is intended to supplement a part time wage. Because there is a high correlation of students working full time and also failing. This is fact: this us why Aus study legislation was introduced.

 

Just because some people worked 40 hours a week and managed to pass their 40 hours of study a week with flying colours, doesn't mean everyone has that ability.

 

My bf is such a kind hearted man. As are my friends and family. They all believe that students of any age deserve a chance at obtaining a degree without having to do 80 hour weeks just to achieve it.

 

I mean, in my real life, all students my age work part time and rely on a spouse or government allowance to get through uni.

 

My position of working part time and getting HECS rather than having to pay for my degree upfront, is all very normal here.

[Leigh 87]

My bf wanted to eat breakfast out today. I didn't ask. He paid.

 

I ordered the smallest thing on menu and a juice. When he asked me if I wanted a coffee of another juice I declined despite being thirsty.

 

See. I make an effort to not order the most pricey item on menu.

 

He then wanted to go shopping. He was willing to pay for our groceries. I gave him a 50 towards it though. I wasn't asked to.

 

I then went to buy a coffee. Now I do prefer men who naturally feel the urge to take care of a woman when it comes to tiny expenses like coffee.

 

As you can see, I buy my own basics and prefer men who do the treating to dates. I make aure to not order the most expensive item on the menu nor do I get more than one drink when it's offered.

 

A gold digger would order the most expensive things and let the guy buy her groceries.

[Leigh 87]

My bf just offered to buy me a 60 dollar online etext book.

 

I refused and paid it myself.

 

So as you can see, I need a guy who is generous but I won't take advantage.

 

I lovw the kind of guy who actually wants buy me those things because I just find it really generous and masculine to wanna help a girl out.

 

He often offers to pay or take me out and I don't accept.

[Ferret]

I don't know how much will my post contribute to the development of the discussion on this thread, but I just felt a sudden urge to express an opinion. I don't mean to insult anyone with it.

 

Everyone has a right to their opinion and striving towards what feels good to them, but I can't let go expressing how unsettling it feels for me to read women's posts about how men need to spoil them like princesses and pay for dates and gifts. What happened to equality, what happened to female empowerment and feminism? It baffles me how being spoiled by a man is portrayed like the ultimate positive thing in the relationship. To me, men and women are equal (well, except in our biology), they are partners, they are teammates. One covers for the other in time of need. A woman can pay her share of the date costs, since she contributed to it. A woman can let go of unrealistic expectation of how much her man needs to spend on her birthday gifts and go buy her own gifts for herself. A man can think through his budget and decide to that he really needs to spend the left over cash for a little something for himself this time. Why does a relationship always need to revolve around a woman as the center of the universe?

 

Now I don't say it's not nice to spoil each other time after time. But in no way would I let a man stop me reaching for my wallet if I want to pay for myself. That's so devaluing, that's like saying: "aww, let me get this for you honey, that's not a task for a little fragile woman".

I do get that that's what a part of women want - they do want to feel fragile and little and secured, but that never works out in the long run. Things happen, relationships break and what if that happens after a 20 years of him spoiling you? Then you're completely lost and not at all used to being fully in charge for yourself, feeling strong and not requiring anything from your partner except for fair partnership, love and respect.

 

I don't expect my opinion change anyone's views, but just wanted to offer a different mindset, which is, btw, the dominating mindset in the Scandinavia.

 

I just wanted to say that while I dont totally agree with the direction modern feminism is going...I do agree with what your saying a women has to be secure in her own and willing to hold her own in my view also before she can bring anything of substance into any relationship. Even more so to help insure her own security long term.

 

I saw this 1st hand with my Aunt she was married young back when the husband was expected to pretty much support the women 200% he even drove her everywhere and when he passed she was so very lost shes finally come into her own but it was such a shock for her much harder then it would have been if she had not been so reliant on him..good point and post..

[joseb]

When he asked me if I wanted a coffee of another juice I declined despite being thirsty.

.

 

You know you can get water for free right?!

 

No need to be thirsty