What is your mission?

[Robert Z]

In my experience, Anger has NEVER, EVER had a 'positive effect'. Ever.

 

Why don't you read the link before responding?

 

Yet the red-hot emotion has a positive side, say psychologists who study anger. In studies and in clinical work, they find anger can help clarify relationship problems, clinch business deals, fuel political agendas and give people a sense of control during uncertain times. More globally, they note, it can spur an entire culture to change for the better, as witnessed by the civil rights movement of the 1960s and the earlier women's suffrage movement.

 

"Imagine what the women's suffrage movement would have been like if women had said, 'Guys, it's really so unfair, we're nice people and we're human beings too. Won't you listen to us and give us the vote?" says social psychologist Carol Tavris, PhD, author of "Anger: The Misunderstood Emotion" (Simon & Schuster, 1989). "To paraphrase Malcolm X, there's a time and a place for anger, where nothing else will do."

 

While there is no one definition of constructive anger--experts say it varies according to situation and context--psychologists are examining how its use can aid intimate relationships, work interactions and political expressions, including the public's response to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

 

When I hear Trump trumpeting calls for torture, I get angry because it is a threat to civilized society and decency. It is a violation of our most cherished ideals and principles. Donald Trump is a clear of example of anger justified!

Edited March 26, 2016 by Robert Z

[TaraMaiden2]

Why don't you read the link before responding?

 

I did. I maintain that there are more constructive and positive ways of dealing with situations, than anger. My experience bears this out, as does the path I currently follow.

 

 

 

When I hear Trump trumpeting calls for torture, I get angry because it is a threat to civilized society and decency. It is a violation of our most cherished ideals and principles. Donald Trump is a clear of example of anger justified!

 

His stubborn persistence in his rhetoric frustrates me, but it doesn't make me angry because I DON'T LET IT.

I feel a sad compassion for the guy and believe him - as do many others - to be utterly misguided and totally deaf to good sense.

 

It makes you angry.

You say your anger is justified. How are you letting that affect him, and how is it productive for you? What is it prompting you to do, in a positive sense? The anger itself, that is, not your logical response to Trump's shennanigans...

[MuddyFootprints]

Because you feel threatened. Anger is a secondary response to fear and to a lack of control.

[Robert Z]

I did. I maintain that there are more constructive and positive ways of dealing with situations, than anger. My experience bears this out, as does the path I currently follow.

 

So you just dismiss scientific evidence in favor of your personal beliefs. Well my experience says otherwise. And I think everyone gets angry whether they admit it or not. So now what do we do?

 

Or is this one of those, we can all believe whatever we want to believe deals, where facts have no bearing? I often forget how popular that pov is on the internet.

[truthtripper]

Because you feel threatened. Anger is a secondary response to fear and to a lack of control.

That's correct. If you can imagine being attacked by a wild bear, you're terrified and you must react constructively to your terror, otherwise you're not going to or will be less likely to survive. It's your lack of control that causes you to instinctively fight back. You will also be making a lot of noise. It's the force of your resulting anger that enables you to take on the bear with all your might. Anger also importantly increases our physical strength. We simply would not be here without anger. It evolved in us for our protection.

[truthtripper]

And what is the trigger to this anger? There has to be a preliminary interactive emotion that gives rise to it. You're not automatically 'angry'. There is something that occurs before the anger, to stimulate it to arise....

)

Where did I say that anger occurs without a trigger???? Re read my posts #45, #47, #52, #55, #61, #67.

Edited March 27, 2016 by truthtripper

[truthtripper]

That's correct. If you can imagine being attacked by a wild bear, you're terrified and you must react constructively to your terror, otherwise you're not going to or will be less likely to survive. It's your lack of control that causes you to instinctively fight back. You will also be making a lot of noise. It's the force of your resulting anger that enables you to take on the bear with all your might. Anger also importantly increases our physical strength. We simply would not be here without anger. It evolved in us for our protection.

Epinephrine, more commonly known as adrenaline, is a hormone secreted by the medulla of the adrenal glands. Strong emotions such as fear or anger cause epinephrine to be released into the bloodstream, which causes an increase in heart rate, muscle strength, blood pressure, and sugar metabolism. This reaction, known as the “Flight or Fight Response” prepares the body for strenuous activity. In medicine epinephrine is used chiefly as a stimulant in cardiac arrest, as a vasoconstrictor in shock, and as a bronchodilator and antispasmodic in bronchial asthma. Epinephrine is found in small amounts in the body and is essential for maintaining cardiovascular homeostasis because of its ability to divert blood to tissues under stress.

From - http://www.udel.edu/chem/C465/senior/fall00/Performance1/epinephrine.htm.html

Edited March 27, 2016 by truthtripper

[truthtripper]

It's the EXPRESSION of Anger that causes violence and aggression.

The problem is that many religions and society in general tell us that anger is bad and that it should not be expressed. It's a primal force. It's role is to protect us. When anger is felt it should be allowed to flow out naturally, not be suppressed. Suppressed anger or rather the expression of suppressed anger manifests as violence and destructive behaviour. For positive outcomes, anger should be expressed freely as nature intended. Imo, this is constructive anger, it's intensity depending on the trigger.

Edited March 27, 2016 by truthtripper

[TaraMaiden2]

Where did I say that anger occurs without a trigger???? Re read my posts #45, #47, #52, #55, #61, #67.

 

You have repeatedly maintained that Anger is a primary basic instinct.

I have said time and again that it isn't - it's a RESULT of a trigger.

Seems like we're dancing round the same maypole then.

[TaraMaiden2]

The problem is that many religions and society in general tell us that anger is bad and that it should not be expressed. It's a primal force. It's role is to protect us. When anger is felt it should be allowed to flow out naturally, not be suppressed. Suppressed anger or rather the expression of suppressed anger manifests as violence and destructive behaviour. For positive outcomes, anger should be expressed freely as nature intended. Imo, this is constructive anger, it's intensity depending on the trigger.

 

Buddhism allows that anger will arise. The lesson is to not act upon it.

Expression is one thing, but permitting it to override other more benevolent impulses is unskilful.

 

Anger is not there to protect us.

it is a manifested external expression of our desire to win, whatever the circumstance.

Our desire to survive is what protects us.

 

In all the years I have achieved control of my anger, I have never manifested, or expressed a violent destructive behaviour. Because I have suppressed anger in a correct way.

Suppression need not have the negative outcome you describe, if a person is taught adequately, that alternatives are possible, and some may be far more productive and beneficial.

[TaraMaiden2]

Epinephrine, more commonly known as adrenaline, is a hormone secreted by the medulla of the adrenal glands. Strong emotions such as fear or anger cause epinephrine to be released into the bloodstream, which causes an increase in heart rate, muscle strength, blood pressure, and sugar metabolism. This reaction, known as the “Flight or Fight Response” prepares the body for strenuous activity. In medicine epinephrine is used chiefly as a stimulant in cardiac arrest, as a vasoconstrictor in shock, and as a bronchodilator and antispasmodic in bronchial asthma. Epinephrine is found in small amounts in the body and is essential for maintaining cardiovascular homeostasis because of its ability to divert blood to tissues under stress.

From - Epinephrine

 

If epinephrine is administered artificially, does the patient experience anger? Unlikely.

Epinephrine has all those biological effects, but anger and fear are emotions, and can be channelled and/or controlled.

 

Soldiers in SEALS or the SAS are taught from the onset how to recognise these emotions and direct and control them accordingly.

Biological responses cannot be consciously controlled.

Emotions, can.

[TaraMaiden2]

So you just dismiss scientific evidence in favor of your personal beliefs. Well my experience says otherwise. And I think everyone gets angry whether they admit it or not. So now what do we do?

 

Or is this one of those, we can all believe whatever we want to believe deals, where facts have no bearing? I often forget how popular that pov is on the internet.

 

I haven't dismissed scientific evidence. On the contrary, I have read the links, and nowhere does it indicate that Anger is a natural, primary response.

The responses to the Freeze, flight or fight' stimulant begin with fear and transform then onwards.

 

As I stated, I think the term "Anger" is being used as a blanket term, an 'umbrella' under which similar extreme emotions are classed. I think the emotions such as distress, confusion, horror, revulsion, and resistance can all be manifested angrily.

 

I believe what I believe because I have seen it and experienced it for myself. I'm not demanding or expecting anyone else do so.

My beliefs are founded on the fact that I used to be a very angry, resentful and prickly, hostile person.

Since those times, I have accomplished much in the evolution of my own emotions.

 

I'm sorry that you feel my beliefs are any less credible than those links, but I have maintained throughout, and still maintain that anger is a resulting emotion due to a previous trigger.

While I was under the impression that truthtripper was maintaining otherwise, it seems that was not the case.

[burnt]

So you just dismiss scientific evidence in favor of your personal beliefs.

 

Or is this one of those, we can all believe whatever we want to believe deals, where facts have no bearing? I often forget how popular that pov is on the internet.

 

If there's one thing more dangerous than personal opinion, then it is "facts and evidence based on science".

 

Yep I just said it.

The reason is: the phrase "scientific evidence" can be manipulated and often is--I'm not saying all the time though. But is done with sufficient levels of accuracy and sufficient levels of misleading impressions that over time people start to take them as indisputable facts like the words of bible.

 

When someone says "I believe…" you can always counter it by saying "well, that's just your opinion and it doesn't have to be the absolute truth."

 

But you see, when someone starts a sentence with "Based on research and scientific evidence …", you have already been placed into the conditioned mindset to believe that what's about to follow must be true because it's backed up by "some" scientific study, without fully understanding how that particular study was performed and without realizing the ultimate FACT

 

that

 

statistics lies. data does not. but how you collect the data can be "biased" and how you present the analysis of data can be wrong.

 

There's a joke in amongst mathematicians:

"there are lies, then there are damn lies, then there is statistics."

[TaraMaiden2]

Thanks, burnt, that was an insightful post and actually partially bears out my thinking.

That simply because a concept is held to be a universally-accepted fact, it still doesn't make it true.

 

I read - and on more than one occasion, re-read - the links provided, and I still remain unconvinced.

 

NOT because I stubbornly refuse to believe anything presented which seems to counter my 'argument', but because in my long and personally-considerable experience (coupled with witnessing some third-hand incidents for myself) I know personally, that these 'findings are at best, questionable, and at worst, flawed.

 

Pernmit me to add a couple of links of my own. Take from them what you will.

 

Neuroscientists and the Dalai Lama Swap Insights on Meditation - Scientific American

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/nov/03/dalai-lama-scientists-boston-international-symposium-contemplative-studies

 

The Dalai Lama on Anger

[truthtripper]

You have repeatedly maintained that Anger is a primary basic instinct.

I have said time and again that it isn't - it's a RESULT of a trigger.

Seems like we're dancing round the same maypole then.

Primary basic instincts, such as anger, take effect by a prompt or trigger. We don't answer without being questioned first, right?

[truthtripper]

If epinephrine is administered artificially, does the patient experience anger? Unlikely.

Epinephrine has all those biological effects, but anger and fear are emotions, and can be channelled and/or controlled.

 

Soldiers in SEALS or the SAS are taught from the onset how to recognise these emotions and direct and control them accordingly.

Biological responses cannot be consciously controlled.

Emotions, can.

No no no. It's the other way around. Anger stimulates the release of adrenaline which increases muscle strength, allowing a person to protect themselves physically from danger, if need be. My point is that anger has its purpose in our survival and thus our evolution.

 

If you believe anger is not instinctual, then where does it come from?

[truthtripper]

If there's one thing more dangerous than personal opinion, then it is "facts and evidence based on science".

 

Yep I just said it.

The reason is: the phrase "scientific evidence" can be manipulated and often is--I'm not saying all the time though. But is done with sufficient levels of accuracy and sufficient levels of misleading impressions that over time people start to take them as indisputable facts like the words of bible.

 

When someone says "I believe…" you can always counter it by saying "well, that's just your opinion and it doesn't have to be the absolute truth."

 

But you see, when someone starts a sentence with "Based on research and scientific evidence …", you have already been placed into the conditioned mindset to believe that what's about to follow must be true because it's backed up by "some" scientific study, without fully understanding how that particular study was performed and without realizing the ultimate FACT

 

that

 

statistics lies. data does not. but how you collect the data can be "biased" and how you present the analysis of data can be wrong.

 

There's a joke in amongst mathematicians:

"there are lies, then there are damn lies, then there is statistics."

Did I waste five years of my life doing a science degree? Is everything I have learnt complete and utter hogwash?? When a person gets angry, physiological responses take place which prepare the body to fight. This is not a lie. Anger has a purpose.

[TaraMaiden2]

No no no. It's the other way around. Anger stimulates the release of adrenaline which increases muscle strength, allowing a person to protect themselves physically from danger, if need be. My point is that anger has its purpose in our survival and thus our evolution.

Ah, yes, I see what you mean about 'the order of things'. My mistake. However, I'm still at odds with you regarding the purpose of anger, I'm afraid.... ;

You said, previously:

Strong emotions such as fear or anger cause epinephrine to be released into the bloodstream, which causes an increase in heart rate, muscle strength, blood pressure, and sugar metabolism. This reaction, known as the “Flight or Fight Response” prepares the body for strenuous activity.

So strong emotions trigger its release. These strong emotions, are in turn, initially triggered by an "aggressor" or perceived threat. They do not arise on their own.

 

If you believe anger is not instinctual, then where does it come from?

I am of the opinion that it is cultivated and taught, and adopted by a person according to their background, external influences and quality of upbringing.

At the risk of being antagonistic, which I assure you, I am not trying to be, look at how much anger is currently generated by opposing factions with regard to the current world crisis involving ISIS.

The anger cannot be maintained continuously. People do not react with the same intensity, every time, to every stimulation. The levels of anger differ according to what is happening at the time. It would be exhausting to always feel and show anger, to the same degree every time. So there is a variation in its intensity, frequency and effect.

Why?

Because anger is an adopted emotion, but natural inherent instincts give it reason and rise.

 

Did I waste five years of my life doing a science degree? Is everything I have learnt complete and utter hogwash??

No, but knowledge evolves, and what was once accepted as hard fact has been found to be flawed, in many instances. And that's ok. That's progress, because constant study and research reveals new aspects of science and technology previously unknown, or credited to be something else. That's a good thing.

 

When a person gets angry, physiological responses take place which prepare the body to fight.

Not so.

When a person is confronted with a possible perceived threat to their well-being and safety, the freeze, flight or flight response kicks in, and then certain emotions arise in response. It may not necessarily BE anger. Anger is a subsequent result. Not an initial response.

 

This is not a lie. Anger has a purpose.

I have known that to not be true. In my every experience of Anger - both mine, and that of others - it has never been a justified response to the stimulus making it arise. Edited March 27, 2016 by TaraMaiden2

[truthtripper]

I have read the links, and nowhere does it indicate that Anger is a natural, primary response.

.

 

What is the Fight or Flight response?

To understand the Fight or Flight response it helps to think about the role of emotions in our lives. Many of us would prefer to focus on our logical, thinking nature and ignore our sometimes troublesome emotions, but emotions have a purpose. Our most basic emotions like fear, anger or disgust are vital messengers: they evolved as signals to help us meet our basic needs for self-preservation and safety.

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/counselling/documents/podacst-fight-or-flight-response.pdf

 

This type of anger and aggression is the “fight” side of the “fight or flight response”. This physiological response, according to evolutionary psychology, prepares our bodies to fight off a threat or to flee.

https://small-change.uq.edu.au/blog/2016/03/anger-management

 

Anger is not just a mental state of mind. It triggers an increase in heart rate, blood pressure and levels of adrenaline and noradrenaline. Anger has survival benefits, and forms part of our fight or flight brain response to a perceived threat or harm.

What is anger and anger management? - Medical News Today

 

These are from my post #61.

[truthtripper]

Suppression need not have the negative outcome you describe, if a person is taught adequately, that alternatives are possible, and some may be far more productive and beneficial.

 

THERE IS A FLOOD IN THE MIND OF MANKIND

All children are born with an instinctive fight or flight reaction, which is Nature's gift for survival. We use this reaction throughout life to get our needs met and to avoid danger. Anger is instinctively expressed as a part of this reaction. The cry of a newborn child is an expression of anger. When parents mistreat or neglect their children emotionally, the usually force them to suppress their justifiable anger. When the anger that accompanies the fight or flight reaction is continually suppressed, the neurons of the brain become clogged up, and a toxicosis develops that is the source of future symptoms of emotional and physical disease. Even a physical injury heals faster if one is allowed to express anger. The sweet lullaby "Hush Li'l Baby Now Don't You Cry serves the parent, not the child. Even if we have no memories of being abused or emotionally neglected, most of us have been taught to suppress anger.

The Biology of Emotions: Self-Help for Anxiety and Depression By E. Van Winkle

 

This article also explains how suppressed anger causes anxiety and violent behaviour.

Edited March 27, 2016 by truthtripper

[TaraMaiden2]

The author, a neurophysiologist, presents an innovative theory of the origins of mental and physical illness which underlie "detoxification crises."

 

So in other words it's an inventive idea? Right....

 

THERE IS A FLOOD IN THE MIND OF MANKIND

All children are born with an instinctive fight or flight reaction, which is Nature's gift for survival. We use this reaction throughout life to get our needs met and to avoid danger. Anger is instinctively expressed as a part of this reaction. The cry of a newborn child is an expression of anger.

Really? Who says? My daughter never cried when born. My midwife says the crying instinct after birth, is shock, but not anger.

 

When parents mistreat or neglect their children emotionally, the usually force them to suppress their justifiable anger.

I don't remember it that way. I have seen plenty of kids manifest anger in other ways other than as a direct response to the mistreatment. So it's not suppressed. It's channelled differently.

 

When the anger that accompanies the fight or flight reaction is continually suppressed, the neurons of the brain become clogged up, and a toxicosis develops that is the source of future symptoms of emotional and physical disease.

This happens with other emotions too, right?

Even a physical injury heals faster if one is allowed to express anger.

Where is the medical evidence for this?

 

The sweet lullaby "Hush Li'l Baby Now Don't You Cry serves the parent, not the child.

Disagree. It is mutually beneficial.

Even if we have no memories of being abused or emotionally neglected, most of us have been taught to suppress anger.

Maybe if I had been, I'd be even more screwed up than I am now. I was never taught this

 

 

Let's just agree to disagree, ok?

I'm getting nowhere with my explanations, and I'm not really buying into yours, however you want to present it.

 

Thanks for the discussion, though. It's proved informative and fun.

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by TaraMaiden2

[truthtripper]

I am of the opinion that it is cultivated and taught

.

But we still need to have the innate/internal know-how to cultivate it. A tree can't grow without a seed.

[TaraMaiden2]

It's cultivated and taught as I have repeatedly said, by our culture, upbringing and influence of our peers and elders.

But even people sharing the same culture, traditions and upbringing, manifest and permit anger to arise in different ways, to varying degrees.

If Anger was a natural inherent inbuilt response, we would ALL display it every time we felt threatened.

We don't.

[truthtripper]

 

Let's just agree to disagree, ok?

I'm getting nowhere with my explanations, and I'm not really buying into yours, however you want to present it.

 

Thanks for the discussion, though. It's proved informative and fun.

 

But I was just getting started!.......only kidding.