TaraMaiden2 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I just may have, yes. I had to find my way through the hatred and resentment. Viktor Frankl did too. My situation is probably vastly different to yours, but it still involved my being used and abused by other people, on several different levels. I don't think by any measure of comparison, that I could ever liken myself to Viktor, or his experiences. Let's face it, he and those of his kind had an entire nation baying for their blood, and the silent compliance of others whom should have been their allies and rescuers. To have cultivated the sentiments he did, after the things he experienced, shows where true heart lies and what Love can do. Now. If you wish to keep insisting that your life is and was so much worse than mine - or even, his, then be my guest and carry on. But if you were not subjected to torture, daily humiliation, starvation and watching your friends and relatives being killed purely because of their religious persuasion, I find it hard to understand how you can stubbornly insist that you cannot find it within yourself to turn things around and repair the dreadful damage to your heart. Others may have broken it, but you are the one keeping it broken. That's not on anyone else. Their inputs are in the past. How you feel today, now, in the present - is down to you. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Change doesn't happen without complaining first. By all means, complain. But make the complaint balanced and justified. And then implement whatever remedy is appropriate. Everyone needs to complain more, like deckard. The society we live in is not a healthy one. Yes, however, whenever anyone complains about 'society' it's as if they are forgetting they're a part of it. It's all very well to "choose one's own way" and live in your isolated little microcosm, No, I don't live in as you put it, an 'isolated little microcosm'. I fully engage with the public and society at large and integrate myself in all manner of social events and incidents. I live very far from an isolated, hermit lifestyle... but societal change requires protest with the support of others, in large numbers. I think you'll find it was Gandhi (one man, on his own, on a single mission) who said: "BE the change you wish to see in the world." Those who wish to change the world need to start with a small garden. But people can - and do - make a difference. Single people. On their own. Sure, they gather a following and a posse of like-minded individuals. But it all begins in the mind of one person, as an idea. That idea can - and often does - come to fruition. It snowballs, gathers pace and can grow to life-changing globally-significant proportions. "One voice singing in the darkness" can have a wondrous effect on those willing to hear. Link to post Share on other sites
deckard11 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I just may have, yes. I had to find my way through the hatred and resentment. Viktor Frankl did too. My situation is probably vastly different to yours, but it still involved my being used and abused by other people, on several different levels. I don't think by any measure of comparison, that I could ever liken myself to Viktor, or his experiences. Let's face it, he and those of his kind had an entire nation baying for their blood, and the silent compliance of others whom should have been their allies and rescuers. To have cultivated the sentiments he did, after the things he experienced, shows where true heart lies and what Love can do. Now. If you wish to keep insisting that your life is and was so much worse than mine - or even, his, then be my guest and carry on. But if you were not subjected to torture, daily humiliation, starvation and watching your friends and relatives being killed purely because of their religious persuasion, I find it hard to understand how you can stubbornly insist that you cannot find it within yourself to turn things around and repair the dreadful damage to your heart. Others may have broken it, but you are the one keeping it broken. That's not on anyone else. Their inputs are in the past. How you feel today, now, in the present - is down to you. Don't know who this guy is you keep mentioning but I'm not going to bother looking him up. My life is my life and obviously people don't give a crap about it. I always hate it when someone pulls the you think you have it bad, look at this person card. You have no idea who I am or what I have been through. If you suffered and made it through then good for you. It's not as easy for others. Just don't bother with me ok? I seem to get replies from other people here about them going through all my posts. I honestly don't even know why they do. I don't bother reading others posts. Just whatever's in a thread. Anyways, that's all. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Viktor Frankl is a Jewish holocaust survivor who lost his mother, father brother and wife to the Germans while they were all interned in Auschwitz and Dachau. He went on to become a neurologist and psychiatrist, and wrote a book titled "Man's searching for meaning", which chronicles his experiences as a concentration camp inmate, which led him to discover the importance of finding meaning in all forms of existence, even the most brutal ones, and thus, a reason to continue living. But I'm sure you've had it far worse than he ever did. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Tayla Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Tara, Thank you for your well versed message and recommendations. I recall some other books as well you suggested from a past post. I like what dreamofblue and Amaysgrace suggested that worked for them. Its time to place into practice what are meaningful suggestions here. Appreciate the helpfulness here. ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
deckard11 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Viktor Frankl is a Jewish holocaust survivor who lost his mother, father brother and wife to the Germans while they were all interned in Auschwitz and Dachau. He went on to become a neurologist and psychiatrist, and wrote a book titled "Man's searching for meaning", which chronicles his experiences as a concentration camp inmate, which led him to discover the importance of finding meaning in all forms of existence, even the most brutal ones, and thus, a reason to continue living. But I'm sure you've had it far worse than he ever did. Well, good for him that he was able to get through all that and become something. But I don't compare my suffering to others. Didn't know it was a contest. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 It's not a contest. It's an example of a person's fortitude and inner strength. Something that with diligence and goodwill, we can all emulate and follow. You may think that I am trying to rub your nose in it, or deride and make light of your experiences. Far from it. I want nothing more than happiness for you, and you deserve nothing less. But the path must be walked by you, and willingly so. Link to post Share on other sites
deckard11 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 It's not a contest. It's an example of a person's fortitude and inner strength. Something that with diligence and goodwill, we can all emulate and follow. You may think that I am trying to rub your nose in it, or deride and make light of your experiences. Far from it. I want nothing more than happiness for you, and you deserve nothing less. But the path must be walked by you, and willingly so. Whatever. I'm done with this. Go share your wisdom with someone else. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Spirituality is very personal in my life. I do my best to observe and keep an open heart in varying interpretations of faiths. Cool! So it led me here, What is your mission? My mission is to obey Jesus Christ, even when it is not popular to do so. Do you have moments of doubts that you are on the spiritual path ? No. I do have moments when I fail, but I ask God for forgiveness, repent, and strive to obey Jesus Christ more than before. Thank God for His amazing grace! How did you perservere during doubts and bouts of defeat? Oh, already answered that above. I persevere through God's amazing grace, mercy, forgiveness, and love! That's why I call myself be the butterfly on this forum. I believe anyone can transform from a worm to a butterfly if they allow God to transform them! He is doing that with me. While I'm not a 100% butterfly lol or mature yet, I am in the process of transformation. 1 Corinthians 13 illustrates this beautifuly! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Summer3 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Actually, if I did have a mission it would be to shut down puppy mills. Anyone caught running one would have to do a mandatory six years in prison. And give a portion of their salary to the humane society for life. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 my mission.....i have many mini missions to be the best woman i can be.....to bring out the best in others..to raise my family..to help as many as i can....to uplift to strengthen.....to support...to do whats right...to do good ... at the end of my life if someone were to remember me.....and i were to be memorable to just one person....i would want them to remember..i was never going to be a perfect person..that i always tried to be my best.....and always cared...for them..that i loved them....and if everyone remembers me that way...then my life which is the mission..full of mini missions......... was lived exactly as it should be lived..with a purpose.... thats what gets me through trials of faith ...that theres purpose to everything...even trials..god knows what that purpose is.......and that every trial has a used by date....even if i dont know when that is......i just have to take trials as they come......and pray my heart out during before and after......and im not dead yet...so I must be on the right path.......deb.. Beautiful!!! Amen! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Tayla Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 BetheButterfly, I admire your humbleness and genuine mission to be giving and forgiving .Which is such a part in loving life and people.. Keep that mission going! What I hear and read thru these comments are to place into action....and the mission will be echoing thru the days as you pursue. I did wonder- how is saving a puppy mill a mission of spiritual growth?...then it dawned on me...It is in the act of caring. I often tell my friends---Blessed be, and then some. ANd they look at me oddly. Its with sincerity and reverence though (not patronizing). So thank you folks....for reminding me....in the mist of trials ...its others who can lend a hand and wipe away the doubts.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Summer3 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) I did wonder- how is saving a puppy mill a mission of spiritual growth?...then it dawned on me...It is in the act of caring. I don't want to save the puppy mills I want to shut them down. They are hideous abusive places that treat animals like garbage. http://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty/puppy-mills In a puppy mill, dogs are often kept in cages with wire flooring that injures their paws and legs—and it is not unusual for cages to be stacked in columns. When female breeding dogs reach a point of physical depletion and can no longer reproduce, they are often killed. Edited March 22, 2016 by Summer3 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Tayla Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 My pardons for such an egregious error. Sincerely sorry Summer3. I meant saving puppys from the mills. I live in an area where its rampant. Sadly our laws are a tap on the hand, and they start up elsewhere in our county. Just pleased that your mission is known. You seem passionate! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Summer3 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 My pardons for such an egregious error. Sincerely sorry Summer3. I meant saving puppys from the mills. I live in an area where its rampant. Sadly our laws are a tap on the hand, and they start up elsewhere in our county. Just pleased that your mission is known. You seem passionate! I knew what you meant but I was worried that someone would read the thread and think I was a nut job. LOL. Seriously, those places are horrible and the fact that we live in a culture that allows this to happen is terrifying. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 BetheButterfly, I admire your humbleness and genuine mission to be giving and forgiving .Which is such a part in loving life and people.. ... The mission of forgiving is a tricky one, especially when the wrongdoer will not/cannot acknowledge their wrongdoing. Can forgiveness even be valid in such a case?? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 The mission of forgiving is a tricky one, especially when the wrongdoer will not/cannot acknowledge their wrongdoing. Can forgiveness even be valid in such a case?? Yes, without question. It's a gift that gets lost in the post. You sent it. It left you. It was on its way. For whatever reason, it never got to its destination. That fact doesn't negate the giver's intention. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 The mission of forgiving is a tricky one, especially when the wrongdoer will not/cannot acknowledge their wrongdoing. Can forgiveness even be valid in such a case?? Yes forgiveness is always valid. Forgiveness however does not mean to ignore or excuse wrongdoing. For example, slavery is wrongdoing. Abolitionists worked hard to show their countrymen this important fact. Many former slaves forgave their masters, but they no longer wanted to be slaves. Forgiveness does not mean to stay in slavery but rather to let go of bitterness and hostility against the wrongdoer. Whether the wrongdoer acknowledges her or his wrong or not, forgiving her or him allows the wronged to freely move on instead of being chained into bitterness and the desire for revenge. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 BetheButterfly makes a good point. An awful lot of people confuse forgiving someone with permitting them to not be punished for their wrongdoings. This is wholly and wildly inaccurate. Forgiveness - in my own personal opinion - is highly important - and differentiates us from 'beasts'. They say that "To err is human; to forgive, Divine." What that means is not that we should play God, nor does it mean we are therefore incapable of forgiveness, because we are NOT God. It means that it takes something special to enact and bestow forgiveness. It's a quality to be developed and cultivated; and it endows us with the heart to embrace those who do wrong, without rendering their actions acceptable. Those who break the Law deserve to be - and should be - punished by a Law which deals with their crime, in appropriate and suitable ways. But forgiveness should not be withheld, out of a sense of outrage, or because they don't deserve compassion and kindness. Whether they acknowledge that, or accept it, take it or leave it, is their choice. That should not be a condition of our forgiveness for them. AS I wrote elsewhere, "If [you think that] your religion requires you to hate - then you should change religion." 1 Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Re forgiveness-often post traumatic stress disorder and terror are results of human wrongdoing such as abuse and betrayal. They are not responses of choice. They are biological responses which physically alter the structure of the brain and its chemistry. It's not possible to simply "let go" of the resulting emotions associated with PTSD. They are a protective reaction to abuse and need time, years, decades to heal from. Imo, in such cases forgiveness is irrelevant. Even in the absence of PTSD, anger and outrage are normal biological responses to wrongdoing. We feel. It would be abnormal and actually, dangerous to not feel. To me, letting go is like a kind of apathy. Anger has a purpose. It should be constructively utilised to create change. It doesn't mean that it has to be violent. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Re forgiveness-often post traumatic stress disorder and terror are results of human wrongdoing such as abuse and betrayal. They are not responses of choice. They are biological responses which physically alter the structure of the brain and its chemistry. It's not possible to simply "let go" of the resulting emotions associated with PTSD. They are a protective reaction to abuse and need time, years, decades to heal from. Imo, in such cases forgiveness is irrelevant. Not so. It is an eventual part of the process, but must be introduced at an appropriate point. It cannot be immediately suggested. Even in the absence of PTSD, anger and outrage are normal biological responses to wrongdoing. Actually, they're not. Instinctively it's Freeze, Flight or Fight. In that order. Anger and outrage are learnt responses. They're not 'normal biological responses'. We feel. It would be abnormal and actually, dangerous to not feel. Agreed. To me, letting go is like a kind of apathy. So you're saying that the lessons instilled by The Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Thich Nhat Hahn and Martin Luther King are indicative of apathy....? Anger has a purpose. It should be constructively utilised to create change. It doesn't mean that it has to be violent.Anger has no purpose and is the biggest torture we can inflict upon ourselves. If we can conquer our own angry responses, we can conquer anything. "Free from anger & untroubled, free from greed, without longing, tamed, your anger abandoned, free from fermentation, you will be unbound." Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 . Anger and outrage are learnt responses. They're not 'normal biological responses'. Anger and outrage are products of terror which is a biological response. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 The could be, but they need not be, and do not necessarily follow. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Anger has no purpose and is the biggest torture we can inflict upon ourselves. Anger defines peace. "If a human being never shows anger, then I think there's something wrong. He's not right in the brain" - Dalai Lama Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 The could be, but they need not be, and do not necessarily follow. All our behaviour stems from biological reactions. We are living beings, not inanimate objects. Link to post Share on other sites
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