TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Yes, agreed. Where have I said anything to the contrary? From a young age, however, we are influenced and taught, conditioned and educated to behave, react, respond in different ways. If anger were a biological response, and inevitable, and unavoidable, why would so many people have such different manifestations of it? Answer? Because people manifest anger in different ways, due to different upbringing and conditioning. Behaviour may well STEM FROM biological behaviour - but it is manifested according to learnt processes. Read my signature. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Yes, agreed. Where have I said anything to the contrary? From a young age, however, we are influenced and taught, conditioned and educated to behave, react, respond in different ways. If anger were a biological response, and inevitable, and unavoidable, why would so many people have such different manifestations of it? Answer? Because people manifest anger in different ways, due to different upbringing and conditioning. Behaviour may well STEM FROM biological behaviour - but it is manifested according to learnt processes. Read my signature. Anger arises from our primal instinct of terror, not from anywhere else. In fact "anger" is really a euphemism for our everyday feelings of terror-not being/feeling in control of a situation or of a person(s). As you suggest, we should learn to express our "anger" morally/righteously rather than through violence and aggression. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Anger arises from our primal instinct of terror, I am disputing that... not from anywhere else.... and I am disputing this. Have you any verifiable data or research that proves that we are born with inherent anger? We're not. Anger - and its response to the stimulus, is taught or absorbed through conditioning, depending on our environment. In fact "anger" is really a euphemism for our everyday feelings of terror-not being/feeling in control of a situation or of a person(s). No, the response-emotion to terror - or fear - is Desire. The desire to control, the desire to win, the desire to be right, the desire to overcome and the desire to be accommodated. I've actually looked at quite a few links talking about fear as an instinct - and nowhere can I actually find anything that connects Fear to Anger. Hoping you can present something to support your assertion....? As you suggest, we should learn to express our "anger" morally/righteously rather than through violence and aggression. No, we should - and can - eliminate it for good. Because it seems all these scientific and theoretical assumptions about base "bad" emotions, may not be sound. Recent studies of compassion argue persuasively for a different take on human nature, one that rejects the preeminence of self-interest. These studies support a view of the emotions as rational, functional, and adaptive—a view which has its origins in Darwin’s Expression of Emotion in Man and Animals. Compassion and benevolence, this research suggests, are an evolved part of human nature, rooted in our brain and biology, and ready to be cultivated for the greater good. from here. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 This today, on my Fb feed - A message from HH the Dalai Lama: Just as heat dispels cold, loving-kindness counters anger. We need to learn how to counter our various negative emotions. Distraction is just a temporary measure. The longer lasting remedy is to be able to see positive qualities in something or someone you otherwise see as negative. Since there is rarely any justification for destructive emotions, we need to become aware of what gives rise to them and what the antidotes are. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Primal reactions of fight/flight are responses to feelings of terror eg. hunter gatherers escaping from or protecting themselves from predators. It is a well known fact/common knowledge that anger derives from fight/flight. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Heat cannot exist without cold, loving-kindness cannot exist without anger. Opposites define each other. This is the role of "negative" emotions/actions. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Indeed. But we have a choice as to which one we pick. Every time. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Primal reactions of fight/flight are responses to feelings of terror eg. hunter gatherers escaping from or protecting themselves from predators. It is a well known fact/common knowledge that anger derives from fight/flight.Show me your source, evidence or proof that this is correct. "It is a well known fact/common knowledge" is far from adequate. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Show me your source, evidence or proof that this is correct. "It is a well known fact/common knowledge" is far from adequate. Fight Or Flight: The Physiological Response | Anger Alternatives Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 That's it? That's just opinion, on one site. And one of the authors of that article doesn't even have any credentials or qualifications, by the looks of it....The other appears to have some letters after her name, but little clue to how long she has been qualified and operating, or what involvement her work entails... I gave you more than one link to show that the whole concept of anger being a 'natural response' is hokum. If that's all you can come up with, I'm sorry, but that's simply inadequate, let alone credible. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 I think you have a romanticised view of our primitive human nature. In the term fight or flight response, "fight" actually means to fight, in that when a person feels threatened they can become violent, angry and literally fight. https://sapac.umich.edu/article/anatomy-trauma-0 https://small-change.uq.edu.au/blog/2016/03/anger-management https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/counselling/documents/podacst-fight-or-flight-response.pdf What is anger and anger management? - Medical News Today Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Have you any verifiable data or research that proves that we are born with inherent anger? We're not. Anger - and its response to the stimulus, is taught or absorbed through conditioning, depending on our environment. It's not anger that's taught, but rather the way it's dealt with and expressed. You speak about "choice". It's the type of choice we decide to make that's taught. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 It's not anger that's taught, but rather the way it's dealt with and expressed. You speak about "choice". It's the type of choice we decide to make that's taught. Well, now, that IS thought-provoking. You may have a point. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Further articles were provided for you as instructed. Aren't you going to comment? Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 If anger were a biological response, and inevitable, and unavoidable, why would so many people have such different manifestations of it? Why do babies get angry? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4etGGjkIRkc/maxresdefault.jpg http://pictures.thewebawards.com/1000/106/Angry-Little-Baby.jpg http://ilikeitfunny.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Funny-angry-baby-picture.jpg Even my cat gets angry sometimes if I tease her too much. And she lets me know on no uncertain terms! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Sometimes I feel I am close to losing my faith. I don't know what to do. I haven't been to mass or confession in years. It's humanity that is making me lose faith. People suck. The loss of faith can be freeing. It also means taking responsibility for your own life and time on earth. It means appreciating what actually is instead of what we imagine. Faith caused me to waste most of my life. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Even my cat gets angry sometimes if I tease her too much. And she lets me know on no uncertain terms! ....and why does my well-fed domesticated cat still go outside into the cold and wet and come back with a mouse in his mouth, then turns, tosses and tortures it to death(if I haven't been present to intercede on the mouse's behalf)? - a result of hard-wired primitive instinct. Although most of us are not threatened on a daily basis by human predators like lions or bears and such, our primitive hard-wired fight response can be triggered simply by the words of another human. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Further articles were provided for you as instructed. Aren't you going to comment? Shaddup, I'm still reading them..... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Why do babies get angry? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4etGGjkIRkc/maxresdefault.jpg http://pictures.thewebawards.com/1000/106/Angry-Little-Baby.jpg http://ilikeitfunny.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Funny-angry-baby-picture.jpg Even my cat gets angry sometimes if I tease her too much. And she lets me know on no uncertain terms! Pictures 1 & 2, are the same baby, picture 3 doesn't necessarily show anger.... the light is in his face, and he seems tired.... In any case, I am still mulling over truthtripper's comment in post #62... and the links he posted, which I am still studying.... Edited March 26, 2016 by TaraMaiden2 Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Pictures 1 & 2, are the same baby, picture 3 doesn't necessarily show anger.... the light is in his face, and he seems tired.... .. https://extension.illinois.edu/babysitting/age-infant.cfm Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) I'm still having difficulty accepting that Anger is a PRIMARY emotional instinctive response. I honestly believe anger is a by-product. A person can be fearful, a person can be startled, a person can be distressed or panicky - and I am of the distinct opinion that anger stems from these. It doesn't arise as a first emotion. I think it is a result of a previously-stimulated response. The initial fear, shock, distress or panic (or a combination of them, or even all 4 together!) arises due to something happening, that we don't want - or something NOT happening, that we DO want. It is only after these primary reflexes are stimulated, (by the stimulus of freeze, flight or fight) that we have the opportunity to be angry. There's always an initial cause, and there's always a primary response. But I cannot agree that Anger is one of them. Not without provocation. Edited March 26, 2016 by TaraMaiden2 Link to post Share on other sites
Aniela Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 It's probably just that my parents wanted me - my mother, especially. She'd given up on getting pregnant, when I was finally conceived. Dad thinks that my mission is to help animals. Mainly rescue dogs and cats. Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) I'm still having difficulty accepting that Anger is a PRIMARY emotional instinctive response. I honestly believe anger is a by-product. A person can be fearful, a person can be startled, a person can be distressed or panicky - and I am of the distinct opinion that anger stems from these. It doesn't arise as a first emotion. I think it is a result of a previously-stimulated response. The initial fear, shock, distress or panic (or a combination of them, or even all 4 together!) arises due to something happening, that we don't want - or something NOT happening, that we DO want. It is only after these primary reflexes are stimulated, (by the stimulus of freeze, flight or fight) that we have the opportunity to be angry. There's always an initial cause, and there's always a primary response. But I cannot agree that Anger is one of them. Not without provocation. Anger has too many positive effects to be written off as a negative by-product of fight/flight. When anger's a plus The Benefits of Being Angry | Your Mental Health - HealthyPlace "The angry man is aiming at what he can attain, and the belief that you will attain your aim is pleasant" Aristotle 350BC It's the suppression of anger that causes violence and aggression. We need to learn how to express it constructively for productive outcome. Edited March 26, 2016 by truthtripper Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Anger has too many positive effects to be written off as a negative by-product of fight/flight. In my experience, Anger has NEVER, EVER had a 'positive effect'. Ever. "The angry man is aiming at what he can attain, and the belief that you will attain your aim is pleasant" Aristotle 350BC Aristotle said this because Anger deludes. "The BELIEF that you will attain your aim, is pleasant." It's not a healthy or accurate belief. That's what he meant. It's the suppression of anger that causes violence and aggression. It's the EXPRESSION of Anger that causes violence and aggression. We need to learn how to express it constructively for productive outcome.I disagree. We need to control it and prevent its destructive manifestation. Can you honestly tell me that any time you have experienced or witnessed anger, everyone has behaved happily, or there has been a universally acceptable and agreeable outcome? Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) On reading the article, I think the word "Anger" is being used as a blanket term for a variety of associated emotions. It's like saying someone has a bad cold. Everybody's cold is different, because there are so many viral variations. No two colds are alike. So no two bouts of 'anger' are alike, because they're fuelled by different circumstances. And I think they're borne of different triggers. The Anger you feel at your spouse ignoring you, is different to the anger you feel at seeing your car keyed.... Behaving with violence with either, is unskilful and inappropriate. And what is the trigger to this anger? There has to be a preliminary interactive emotion that gives rise to it. You're not automatically 'angry'. There is something that occurs before the anger, to stimulate it to arise.... (sorry about the error in quoting, in the previous post.... ) Edited March 26, 2016 by TaraMaiden2 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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