Curious about this sentiment . . .[there is no excuse for cheating]

[SolG]

Although this question comes up with with surprising regularity... I'm going to respond again anyway...

 

The context of the marriage/LTR may include factors that increase one's propensity to seek another partner. But propensity does not translate to automatic recourse to infidelity. That final crossing of the boundary is an individual choice with reference to, not because of the context.

 

Individual adults are wholly and solely responsibly for their own actions. There is no 'he/she MADE me do it'... there is only I found myself in this context and this is how I CHOSE to respond.

 

The degree of propensity derived from the relationship is only just that... a way of understanding the push factor. For a WS to say that they were entirely influenced by that and no internal factor is at best a mass failure of self reflection, and at worst is an absolute abrogation of responsibility for ones own action to the level only really acceptable in a child without the wherewithal to accept any personal responsibility one would reasonably accept from an adult.

 

When you CHOOSE an action, it is yours to own.

 

My spouse won't have sex with me, or doesn't understand me, or doesn't appreciate me... are all legitimate complaints. But I will now have an affair with someone else in response... and feel a legitimate right to do so... is just entitled BS frankly.

 

Much has been bandied around in this thread about an A vs divorce. In what universe are these the only options? What happened to the option of truth? Where is the spouse that says I love you but this <insert what the hell ever the issue is> is driving me to the point where I'm feeling distant in relation to you and thinking of having an EA and/or PA with someone else. That's how freakin' bad this is for me.

 

Or I'm hurting right now... in a way I've never shown you. And I'm afraid you may reject me for it. So I'm thinking of seeking solace in someone elses arms.

 

Or at the more extreme end of the scale... why can't a partner say I want strange. I love you... but I also love NSA sex?

 

 

Why is truth and true intimacy such a rare commodity? Why is it more palatable to lie than confront and resolve? Why is there so much fear of being known?

 

Fifty per cent of marriages end in divorce. Another 20 per cent persist in perpetual dysfunction. That means only three in ten end up healthy.

 

It sometimes makes me want to cry.

[elaine567]

Much has been bandied around in this thread about an A vs divorce. In what universe are these the only options? What happened to the option of truth? Where is the spouse that says I love you but this <insert what the hell ever the issue is> is driving me to the point where I'm feeling distant in relation to you and thinking of having an EA and/or PA with someone else. That's how freakin' bad this is for me.

 

Or I'm hurting right now... in a way I've never shown you. And I'm afraid you may reject me for it. So I'm thinking of seeking solace in someone elses arms.

 

Or at the more extreme end of the scale... why can't a partner say I want strange. I love you... but I also love NSA sex?

 

 

Because for most marriage = exclusivity, marriage = monogamy, so to bring up the topic of "I am thinking of seeing someone else for my needs, emotional or sexual" is a "betrayal" of the whole principle of marriage.

The response most think they would receive is "Fine, see you in the divorce courts" or stony silence for the rest of their days...

[cocorico]

Unless she's got him chained to a wall in the basement, he's not "trapped". He's just not willing to make uncomfortable choices.

 

Psychology teaches us that perception is reality. If someone believes they are trapped, then they are trapped - someone else "objectively" (i.e. From a different, but equally subjective, viewpoint) may consider them not to be trapped, but that does not change the view of the "trapped" person regarding their options.

 

Agency comprises both power and will. Power is the ("objective") ability to effect change in or on a situation; will is the ("subjective") orientation that motivates someone to do so, or constrains them from acting. If someone lacks the orientation, because they cannot conceive of options available to them, or are prevented by their (in)capacity or their values from acting on these, then they lack the agency to act. This is Psych 101.

 

Just because an individual viewing the situation from outside may imagine that they, in a similar situation, would not be trapped, it does not change the reality of the person in the situation.

[Liam1]

It's always interesting reading how people differ. My ws did both. I preferred the affair. Him all of a sudden saying he was done being married was totally devastating and I couldn't understand why our life meant so little, that our 8 years to together, our 3 kids plus me being freshly pregnant. Totally blew my world apart how I was going to provide for these kids. Who was ever going to want a mother of 4? The anxiety attack surrounding how I was going to live... And I'd been a stay at home, so I was being forced to stop being their mom full time? I resented like hell that he was taking that away from them.

 

The affair I found out about 2 months before was nothing so much in comparison. It whopped me for a few but I could understand how it could happen... I had seen the same distance in our marriage and who was to say I would have been strong enough not to fall off that edge had it been me experiencing the high chemistry. But he was mine and we'd be ok, just needed to change stuff.

 

Giggle:

 

That is how my wife feels.

 

And as I have prior mentioned in an earlier post, I would personally prefer that my wife had a revenge affair than simply one day came home with divorce papers. My marriage was important to me, I did not want to come home and simply hand my wife divorce papers. Neither of us wanted a divorce.

 

Also, I would never THREATEN a divorce to get my way. IMO, a divorce should only be mentioned if it is already a foregone conclusion.

 

An affair is a temporary arrangement that can be worked through. A divorce is not a solution to issues in a marriage. It is a final ending of the marriage without any compromise.

 

IMO, threatening a divorce is no better than actually having an affair. I think most counselors would agree that the word divorce should never be used as a threat. It is a from or bullying and emotional abuse.

 

Also, my wife now realizes that refusing sex after many years of a satisfying sex life, simply because she felt she "out grew the need for sex" was wrong.

 

Also, ridiculing me and calling me a pervert for wanting sex about once a month was definitely abusive, according to our infidelity counselor.

 

My wife accepts that and agrees that it lead to the affair. To me it was the only solution short of divorce.

 

For me personally, and I only speak for myself, the affair was a without a doubt SOLUTION to my dilemma.

 

My wife, after refusing for ten years, without any medical cause, finally agreed to see a counselor. She choose a well known infidelity counselor and both of us agree that it has IMPROVED our marriage.

 

It is now easier for both of us to communicate. We spend more quality time together and we are more intimate with each other than early in our marriage.

 

We don't have sex like rabbits, but we do make sex at least once a month a priorty.

 

My wife agrees that her rigid stubborn refusal to seek counseling, as I requested, was wrong and was an indication of her own sense of entitlement within the marriage.

 

That sense of entitlement allowed her to refuse sex and ridicule my desire for it.

 

I don't apologize for my NATURAL human desire for sex. To me sex is about closeness and is a way to show love and acceptance of each other.

 

I think a desire for sex is normal.

 

The bottom line, though, is that my affair solved this issue and has without a doubt improved our marriage in general.

 

Now, when we have disagreements in which one of us seems stubbornly entitled to insisting that we are the one that is right and the other is wrong, we both agree to counseling and that helps to force us to both look at how we may be contributing to the issue.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Liam1

[GunslingerRoland]

I think there are very few absolute statements like that, which you can't find some sort of exception too. But generally I'd agree 99% of the time.

[wmacbride]

Giggle:

 

That is how my wife feels.

 

And as I have prior mentioned in an earlier post, I would personally prefer that my wife had a revenge affair than simply one day came home with divorce papers. My marriage was important to me, I did not want to come home and simply hand my wife divorce papers. Neither of us wanted a divorce.

 

Also, I would never THREATEN a divorce to get my way. IMO, a divorce should only be mentioned if it is already a foregone conclusion.

 

An affair is a temporary arrangement that can be worked through. A divorce is not a solution to issues in a marriage. It is a final ending of the marriage without any compromise.

 

IMO, threatening a divorce is no better than actually having an affair. I think most counselors would agree that the word divorce should never be used as a threat. It is a from or bullying and emotional abuse.

 

Also, my wife now realizes that refusing sex after many years of a satisfying sex life, simply because she felt she "out grew the need for sex" was wrong.

 

Also, ridiculing me and calling me a pervert for wanting sex about once a month was definitely abusive, according to our infidelity counselor.

 

My wife accepts that and agrees that it lead to the affair. To me it was the only solution short of divorce.

 

For me personally, and I only speak for myself, the affair was a without a doubt SOLUTION to my dilemma.

 

My wife, after refusing for ten years, without any medical cause, finally agreed to see a counselor. She choose a well known infidelity counselor and both of us agree that it has IMPROVED our marriage.

 

It is now easier for both of us to communicate. We spend more quality time together and we are more intimate with each other than early in our marriage.

 

We don't have sex like rabbits, but we do make sex at least once a month a priorty.

 

My wife agrees that her rigid stubborn refusal to seek counseling, as I requested, was wrong and was an indication of her own sense of entitlement within the marriage.

 

That sense of entitlement allowed her to refuse sex and ridicule my desire for it.

 

I don't apologize for my NATURAL human desire for sex. To me sex is about closeness and is a way to show love and acceptance of each other.

 

I think a desire for sex is normal.

 

The bottom line, though, is that my affair solved this issue and has without a doubt improved our marriage in general.

 

Now, when we have disagreements in which one of us seems stubbornly entitled to insisting that we are the one that is right and the other is wrong, we both agree to counseling and that helps to force us to both look at how we may be contributing to the issue.

 

Did your counselor spend as much time trying to find out from your wife why she was no longer interested ins ex with you, as you indicate that was the root of your problem.

[Liam1]

Did your counselor spend as much time trying to find out from your wife why she was no longer interested ins ex with you, as you indicate that was the root of your problem.

 

Absolutely.

 

No qualified infidelity counselor would fail to investigate the why of any issue and if the why is actually the fault of the BS or the WS.

[wmacbride]

Absolutely.

 

No qualified infidelity counselor would fail to investigate the why of any issue and if the why is actually the fault of the BS or the WS.

 

 

Hmmm..I've never heard of a counselor who would try to pin a situation down in terms of blame. i.e.-.- to tell one spouse that a particular issue is their fault.

Edited March 28, 2016 by wmacbride

[minimariah]

Hmmm..I've never heard of a counselor who would try to pin a situation down in terms of blame. i.e.-.- to tell one spouse that a particular issue is their fault.

 

i don't think it's like that -- it's more about getting the spouse to take some responsibility for the failing marriage.

[Ladyjane14]

Psychology teaches us that perception is reality. If someone believes they are trapped, then they are trapped - someone else "objectively" (i.e. From a different, but equally subjective, viewpoint) may consider them not to be trapped, but that does not change the view of the "trapped" person regarding their options.

 

Agency comprises both power and will. Power is the ("objective") ability to effect change in or on a situation; will is the ("subjective") orientation that motivates someone to do so, or constrains them from acting. If someone lacks the orientation, because they cannot conceive of options available to them, or are prevented by their (in)capacity or their values from acting on these, then they lack the agency to act. This is Psych 101.

 

Just because an individual viewing the situation from outside may imagine that they, in a similar situation, would not be trapped, it does not change the reality of the person in the situation.

 

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Some choices are more difficult than others, that's true.... but they remain CHOICES. People who elect to stay in a difficult marriage have still made a choice. They are NOT chained to a wall. They are NOT trapped. These are excuses and rationalizations.

 

While I would agree that many marriages have problems, the answer to those problems is not committing adultery. It's like bringing a nuke to a knife fight, and yeah, some folks might be able to rebuild, but there's going to be fallout for years.

[SolG]

Because for most marriage = exclusivity, marriage = monogamy, so to bring up the topic of "I am thinking of seeing someone else for my needs, emotional or sexual" is a "betrayal" of the whole principle of marriage.

The response most think they would receive is "Fine, see you in the divorce courts" or stony silence for the rest of their days...

 

*Sigh* It just seems so counterintuitive to me that if something is a core tenant of a relationship, that threats to it are out of bounds for discussion. To my way of thinking, the importance should make it absolutely imperative that it is discussed frankly and honestly whenever the need arises.

 

Wouldn't it be better for a spouse to come home to you and say that they were propositioned at a cocktail party and that they were sorely tempted; and that you need to talk about why that may be? Rather than find out much later that they succumbed and have been in a full blown A?

 

It appears to me that this paradoxical thinking is what leads to As in the first place. It doesn't mean it would be easy, or that it wouldn't hurt or even end badly... But isn't our SO the person we should be able to discuss anything with? Isn't that what emotional intimacy is all about?

[purplesorrow]

*Sigh* It just seems so counterintuitive to me that if something is a core tenant of a relationship, that threats to it are out of bounds for discussion. To my way of thinking, the importance should make it absolutely imperative that it is discussed frankly and honestly whenever the need arises.

 

Wouldn't it be better for a spouse to come home to you and say that they were propositioned at a cocktail party and that they were sorely tempted; and that you need to talk about why that may be? Rather than find out much later that they succumbed and have been in a full blown A?

 

It appears to me that this paradoxical thinking is what leads to As in the first place. It doesn't mean it would be easy, or that it wouldn't hurt or even end badly... But isn't our SO the person we should be able to discuss anything with? Isn't that what emotional intimacy is all about?

 

This would be ideal. My ex didn't come to me because he wanted to cheat. Planned it out, created opportunities. He didn't want to open the discussion because he feared I would want to shop around too. The thought of me with another man was too much for him. Even now divorced, he is pained if I go on a date. So it's not that he couldn't come to me but more so he wouldn't be willing to agree to the same kind of deal he wanted for himself. Just another part of the entitlement and selfishness.

[central]

There are no excuses, but there are always reasons. We are human, and subject to weakness, desire, emotion, illogical thinking, rationalization.

 

There are no excuses for many of the things we do - yet we do them. Everything from abuse or neglect, to eating that donut we shouldn't, or failing to exercise once we do. Some bad decisions have greater consequences, or delayed consequences, versus the immediate gratification. It's human, and it's common. We judge things that hurt others more severely than those that only hurt the individual, but the reasons are the same.

 

No one is perfect, yet we expect a perfect standard of behavior that simply isn't realistic. If dozens of major religious leaders can't keep it in their pants, despite their vaunted morals and touted god-fearing ways, then how can we expect better from ordinary people? We can only try our best - and often, that isn't going to be good enough.

[purplesorrow]

There are no excuses, but there are always reasons. We are human, and subject to weakness, desire, emotion, illogical thinking, rationalization.

 

There are no excuses for many of the things we do - yet we do them. Everything from abuse or neglect, to eating that donut we shouldn't, or failing to exercise once we do. Some bad decisions have greater consequences, or delayed consequences, versus the immediate gratification. It's human, and it's common. We judge things that hurt others more severely than those that only hurt the individual, but the reasons are the same.

 

No one is perfect, yet we expect a perfect standard of behavior that simply isn't realistic. If dozens of major religious leaders can't keep it in their pants, despite their vaunted morals and touted god-fearing ways, then how can we expect better from ordinary people? We can only try our best - and often, that isn't going to be good enough.

 

I didn't expect perfect. Not cheating doesn't equal perfect. I think I was well within reason to expect monogamy in a marriage where I managed to stay faithful. He expected my fidelity and he got it.

[central]

I didn't expect perfect. Not cheating doesn't equal perfect. I think I was well within reason to expect monogamy in a marriage where I managed to stay faithful. He expected my fidelity and he got it.

 

You're confirming my point. Different people, different weaknesses and flaws, different levels of ability to resist urges, perhaps even different genetic disposition.

 

 

I expected my ex-wife wouldn't be emotionally abusive, and expected monogamy from her, too. She wasn't able to meet that standard, even though I was. Her flaws are different than mine - no doubt I have some, just not those particular weaknesses. So, there were consequences, of course, but the reality is that despite knowing what those would be, she couldn't stop herself.

[purplesorrow]

You're confirming my point. Different people, different weaknesses and flaws, different levels of ability to resist urges, perhaps even different genetic disposition.

 

 

I expected my ex-wife wouldn't be emotionally abusive, and expected monogamy from her, too. She wasn't able to meet that standard, even though I was. Her flaws are different than mine - no doubt I have some, just not those particular weaknesses. So, there were consequences, of course, but the reality is that despite knowing what those would be, she couldn't stop herself.

 

I fully believe he could have stopped, because he did many months before I found out. I understand your point though.

[MJJean]

Is there an excuse? I guess that's one of those thing in life that's a matter of perspective.

 

I was a WW during my first marriage. I didn't love my ex and only married him because I became pregnant and thought I should "do the right thing".

 

My exH was frequently involved with other women, lied about lying, was physically and mentally abusive, was extemely financially irresponsible, wouldn't/couldn't keep a job, was a thief, and on and on. I wanted out before I got in, but I thought I owed it to my kid to be married to her father.

 

I was a teenage mother with no real job training, no education, no family or friends who were in a position to help, and my mother was terminally ill. So, I stayed. I had no way out. I couldn't earn enough to py bills on my own. I knew my exH wouldn't help as he was already over $80,000 in child support debt from his other 2 kids. Social services here is a joke with a 2+ year wait list for housing assistance and no utility assistance aviailable for the majority of each year. Heck, I didn't even have a car of my own but was long term borrowing a spare my then MIL had and wasn't using.

 

I was so completely miserable it seemed like I was dying inside and life would always be this dark and grey thing one must simpy endure. It all seemed so bleak and hopeless. The only time I felt any kind of happiness was with other men. So, I, too, had multiple affairs until I met the love of my life and finally ended the sham.

 

I was always open and honest about my extramarital activities. Over the years, many people have said something along the lines of "Infidelity is wrong.....but I understand."

[dichotomy]

Just expanding the discussion to extreme scenarios .

 

Till Dementia Do Us Part: Alzheimer's Caregivers, Spouses Seek New Lov... - AARP

[wmacbride]

There are no excuses, but there are always reasons. We are human, and subject to weakness, desire, emotion, illogical thinking, rationalization.

 

There are no excuses for many of the things we do - yet we do them. Everything from abuse or neglect, to eating that donut we shouldn't, or failing to exercise once we do. Some bad decisions have greater consequences, or delayed consequences, versus the immediate gratification. It's human, and it's common. We judge things that hurt others more severely than those that only hurt the individual, but the reasons are the same.

 

No one is perfect, yet we expect a perfect standard of behavior that simply isn't realistic. If dozens of major religious leaders can't keep it in their pants, despite their vaunted morals and touted god-fearing ways, then how can we expect better from ordinary people? We can only try our best - and often, that isn't going to be good enough.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that.

There are all sorts of impulses that people ignore because they could lead to hurting someone else. we find other ways to channel those thoughts.

 

For example, say you are speaking with someone, and they say something you find completely unacceptable. you have the urge to hit them right across the face. Do you do so, or do you walk away and find some other method to cope with your anger that won't hurt someone else and lead to repercussions for you?

 

Cheating doesn't taint someone for life, and it doesn't automatically make them a terrible person, but by the same token, it isn't something they couldn't help doing. It was a choice they made.

[central]

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that.

There are all sorts of impulses that people ignore because they could lead to hurting someone else. we find other ways to channel those thoughts.

 

For example, say you are speaking with someone, and they say something you find completely unacceptable. you have the urge to hit them right across the face. Do you do so, or do you walk away and find some other method to cope with your anger that won't hurt someone else and lead to repercussions for you?

 

I would walk away. Many people would not. If everyone behaved wisely, we wouldn't need police and prisons (or marriage counselors), and there would be few fights.

 

 

You don't have to buy my view - but you already have it innately, for free. Even if you don't realize it, IMO.

[Liam1]

Hmmm..I've never heard of a counselor who would try to pin a situation down in terms of blame. i.e.-.- to tell one spouse that a particular issue is their fault.

 

Oh well, whatever.

 

My wife and I visited six counselors, all of her choosing, prior to settling on the one we decided to work with, also her choice.

 

Each and every one started by saying they would focus on the infidelity first and the pain it may have caused her, but later they would need to take a look at her contribution to the break down of the marriage.

 

They did not call it faults or flaws and they did not place blame on EITHER of us.

 

They focused on the health the marriage.

 

All the counselors eventually informed my wife at some point that refusing sex, without a health issue as the root cause was also a form of breaking the marriages vows.

 

It does not matter anyway. The counselor we see now solved the problem a long time ago.

 

Now we communicate better.

 

If we can't, she immediately agrees to counseling.

 

Whatever works, right?

[Liam1]

i don't think it's like that -- it's more about getting the spouse to take some responsibility for the failing marriage.

 

Exactly Minimariah.

 

Any good counselor would have to delve into the health of the marriage and insist that both spouses accept some responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage.

 

Some people just refuse to see their own issues. That is not healthy and will not improve the marriage.

 

IMO, that is why some people resort to affairs. They have tried to communicate to the spouse and that has not worked or the spouse refuses to admit their flaws.

[JustGettingBy]

Its not about whether cheating is 'worse' than abuse. Its about 'two wrongs don't make a right'.

[Furious]

I continually read everywhere that no matter what was happening in the M, no matter how awful the BS was, there is no excuse for cheating. Is that correct?

 

So, is the assumption then that infidelity trumps all other hurts, abuses, misbehavior, and betrayals in an M? There is never even an abusive or painful marital 'tie'????

 

 

An affair is a short sighted bandaid to the real and the now issues that need to be addressed in marriage. Excuses and blame for choosing to cheat is a personal choice. Character and integrity is internal, it's a core trait that you either have or don't have based only from within. No one owns your character or integrity and blaming others for one's own choices is a cop out.

 

It's ironic, but if a husband gambles, or drinks, or steals, or abusive ....anyone can clearly see that the spouse is not to blame for those choices, but for some reason infidelity is more often seen as the betrayed spouse's shortcomings.

[2.50 a gallon]

Prior to my marriage I was a playboy. Not like the magazine of the same name, I was in my 30's and had lots of excess energy and used it for playing. I was a partier, I was a regular to about half a dozen bars, one for C&W music and dancing, another where I drank, flirted and played pool, another that was one of the last discos, another where I played backgammon for money, my favorite was one that just served beer, but had a sand volleyball court outside, inside they had sturdy thick lumber unbreakable tables and benches, where patrons talked, but also played cards, rummy, chit on your neighbor, even bridge. In short I was always playing somewhere.

On nights I stayed home, the stereo was up, and the grill was hot, beer and Boones Farm in the fridge, my place was party central for a very large complex.

My sex life was fantastic.

When I met my Ex, she had just turned 18, and moved from out of state and instantly volunteered to be one of my party gals. Then she wanted more, I cut back on my GF's until it was only her, After she graduated from college I agreed to marry her. When she accepted a job out of state, I sold my race cars, she did not like it and my motorcycle. We needed the money

I became a goody two shoes, no more stopping by a bar on the way home from work, we went out about once a week for dinner. But I avoided the bars. Then we hit a snag with her co-worker OM's, I caught her cheating and walked away.

For the next three decades, I was blameless, I pointed my finger in all directions except for my self, I never looked back

That is until a couple of years ago.

Knock, knock, she was now of age and wanted to get out and do some partying, she had been waiting for three years for this time and I became Mister home body

So yes I was right to point my finger, but at the same time, I had a hand in breaking up my marriage by giving up the bar scene and trying to be a good stay at home husband

Edited March 29, 2016 by 2.50 a gallon