Curious about this sentiment . . .[there is no excuse for cheating]

[purplesorrow]

I was a SAHM when y husband cheated. Didn't make an ounce of difference.

 

Because it had nothing to do with you. If a person wants to cheat, they will. I'm all for sahm if that is what she chooses to do. I disagree that a woman is the one that has to choose between work or a family as it was suggested. Did you get back out into the workforce?

[wmacbride]

Because it had nothing to do with you. If a person wants to cheat, they will. I'm all for sahm if that is what she chooses to do. I disagree that a woman is the one that has to choose between work or a family as it was suggested. Did you get back out into the workforce?

 

 

For many reasons, I have to be at home with my children, even though my oldest is almost an adult.they all have health problems, and in any given month, I end up spending at least 4 or five days with one of them in the hospital. Then here are the endless streams of doctor's appointments, testing, etc.

 

Fortunately, I was able to find a job I can do online at home - just sort of lucked into it- and now I can make a good sized contribution to our family income, and I have more choices should I ever wish to exercise them.

 

After my husband cheated,I told him that I had spoken with an attorney, know what my rights were, and wasn't afraid to leave, which was true. I also told him I was staying because I wnated to not, because I felt I had to.

Though I was a SAHM, I was lucky enough to have a lot of family support, and would have landed on my feet should I have chosen to leave. Some SAHM don't have that.

 

That was not only good for me, but him as well. He knew I loved him enough to stay with him and work together towards the future, even though I had other options.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Most people here seem to think that the reason these people are cheating is all sexual. That bothers me a bit. The person saying something like oh the only way to cure a bad relationship is with someone's genitals. Not all sexy time is the same. It's also emotional. If it were easy no one would be in a bad relationship and no one would be cruel. When one partner is domineering and controls everything it can get scary. How do you tell that person who has three children and no job and no friends to just leave you'll manage. Cheating isn't the answer but sometimes these people find someone who not only is there for them but of tens sees the abuse that no one else seems to notice. If that person can help that other person get out then good for them.

 

There are actually many folks that are here because emotional affairs...not physical affairs.

 

cheating is cheating...betrayal is betrayal....and cheating is never the right choice.

[wmacbride]

Oh that's beautiful mac bride!

 

We can certainly come out on the other side happy....

 

But I love what your honey said... It lifted my heart!

 

Ps... The lunch date with my honey the other day was great. You were too sweet to write to him. Thank you for caring about me. Youre a good friend.

 

 

I'm glad you two had a nice lunch:)

[Liam1]

 

Call it old fashioned or not, but back in the day women stayed home and the "man" worked hard so she could maintain the home and when he comes home, she's dolled up, rested, ready for sex and something's good on the kitchen table.

 

We don't have that now a days. People are hiring maids and/or dumping off their kids in daycare, public schools, nannies, relatives and sex with hubby isn't a "priority". Also, families eat out too much and we have obesity cuz of that.

 

I agree Gloria, totally. I haven't read the other posts, just yours.

 

But to my mind it IS unfair that society now expects a woman to work and then do all the MOM stuff. It is Totally unfair that society would denigrate a woman for wanting to be a stay at home mom.

 

Working should be a CHOICE she makes. For this woman it appears to be her choice.

 

 

Also, why can't women ever be at fault and/or share the blame? In this case, 'he abandoned her cuz he's working his butt off'? Really? Yes, there are case of guys who just expect to work all the time and not interact with the home, but if I'm reading this correctly, he "is" available, but cuz she wants (not needs) to go work, she's too tired to deal with him after kids and chores.

Another good point, Gloria.

 

The way I read it this guy is bustin' his butt for his family. She appears to be totally disrespectful of that.

 

He works hard yet he is still available to her.

 

With that said, a marriage is about compromise, it is not about one person DICTATING the terms of the marriage.

 

Both can give a little to get make the marriage function more productively.

 

That is why counseling is a must, IMO. The counselor is an objective party that can point out the faults of both the people in the marriage

 

IMO, it is highly unlikely that in any marital dispute one party is totally wrong and the other party totally right.

 

Unless the spouse is a psychopath or has a personality disorder, if not, MOST likely both parties are responsible for the dysfunction in the marriage to some degree.

 

The way I see it a lot of people in the marriages can very clearly see their mates faults but consistently refuse to see, acknowledge address or fix their own faults.

 

Even when a counselor points their faults out to them, some still appear to refuse to acknowledge address or correct those faults.

 

Worse, they will accuse the other spouse of BLAMESHIFTING, when in reality he/she may be pointing out factual issues in the marriage that the other person is bringing into the marital dysfunction but persistently refuses to recognize.

 

The word BlAMESHIFTING as interpreted by psychologists is often misused.

 

The word blameshifting is bandied about freely, but it is too often used incorrectly.

 

If a spouse points out an actual fault that the other spouse refuses to acknowledge and address, that is NOT blameshifting. That is communicating.

 

If the one spouse refuses to hear the other spouses legitimate complaints that is dysfunctional.

 

Blameshifting is NOT pointing our a legitimate complaint. It is using a non-factual fantasized issue to avoid guilt.

 

An example of Blameshifting would be FALSELY rewriting the marital history, or projecting their own issues onto the other spouse.

 

When someone is doing something disrespectful or dysfunctional in the marriage it is not blameshifting to point it out.

 

It is simply a way to communicate.

 

Calling attempts to point out legitimate complaints blameshifting is actually BLAMESHIFTING.

[wmacbride]

I agree Gloria, totally. I haven't read the other posts, just yours.

 

But to my mind it IS unfair that society now expects a woman to work and then do all the MOM stuff. It is Totally unfair that society would denigrate a woman for wanting to be a stay at home mom.

 

Working should be a CHOICE she makes. For this woman it appears to be her choice.

 

 

Another good point, Gloria.

 

The way I read it this guy is bustin' his butt for his family. She appears to be totally disrespectful of that.

 

He works hard yet he is still available to her.

 

With that said, a marriage is about compromise, it is not about one person DICTATING the terms of the marriage.

 

Both can give a little to get make the marriage function more productively.

 

That is why counseling is a must, IMO. The counselor is an objective party that can point out the faults of both the people in the marriage

 

IMO, it is highly unlikely that in any marital dispute one party is totally wrong and the other party totally right.

 

Unless the spouse is a psychopath or has a personality disorder, if not, MOST likely both parties are responsible for the dysfunction in the marriage to some degree.

 

The way I see it a lot of people in the marriages can very clearly see their mates faults but consistently refuse to see, acknowledge address or fix their own faults.

 

Even when a counselor points their faults out to them, some still appear to refuse to acknowledge address or correct those faults.

 

Worse, they will accuse the other spouse of BLAMESHIFTING, when in reality he/she may be pointing out factual issues in the marriage that the other person is bringing into the marital dysfunction but persistently refuses to recognize.

 

The word BlAMESHIFTING as interpreted by psychologists is often misused.

 

The word blameshifting is bandied about freely, but it is too often used incorrectly.

 

If a spouse points out an actual fault that the other spouse refuses to acknowledge and address, that is NOT blameshifting. That is communicating.

 

If the one spouse refuses to hear the other spouses legitimate complaints that is dysfunctional.

 

Blameshifting is NOT pointing our a legitimate complaint. It is using a non-factual fantasized issue to avoid guilt.

 

An example of Blameshifting would be FALSELY rewriting the marital history, or projecting their own issues onto the other spouse.

 

When someone is doing something disrespectful or dysfunctional in the marriage it is not blameshifting to point it out.

 

It is simply a way to communicate.

 

Calling attempts to point out legitimate complaints blameshifting is actually BLAMESHIFTING.

 

If you are referring to the situation with my brother.

He wasn't working his butt off for his family, he was working hsi utt off because it suits his personality type to do so. He enjoys networking and socializing with clients, the traveling around the world on business, taking clients out on his sailboat, etc.

 

At the time- and this is what he tod me- he was happy because he got to do what he wanted all day long,and when he got home late at night, he expected her to be fresh as a daisy to spend time with him.

 

As for your BOTH spouses comment...this goes both ways. If a bs was responsible for the state of the marriage then so is the ws.

[Lady2163]

 

As for your BOTH spouses comment...this goes both ways. If a bs was responsible for the state of the marriage then so is the ws.

 

I do believe in many cases, BOTH are responsible for the state of the marriage. I've said this before, I was a lousy wife, my exH was a lousy husband. I don't know if he cheated, but I can tell you, I wasn't giving it up at home.

 

In my opinion only, there are a disproportionate number of BS on here who were the perfect spouse and never did anything that didn't love and cherish their nasty WS. Conversely, there seem to be a large number of Others who are with WS who aren't getting XYZ at home and are neglected and abused.

 

There are times the Other does post that he/she has been lied to about the state of affairs at home and has just discovered the AP was scamming them.

 

Yet, I rarely see a BS say, "I was a jerk. I knowingly didn't provide my spouse with XYZ. I didn't nurture the relationship." It's more like, "Things may have been bad.....BUT, that's no excuse for cheating!!!" Assuming the WS isn't a psychopath and player, I believe many of them make a couple of way too subtle attempts to correct a deficiency and then give up when it is met with a negative reaction. Then they are conflict avoidant. (Side note: Liam, I believe you are an amazing exception to this, hello, Unicorn!)

 

I do believe part of this is the nature of the beast. I think those who are more inclined to post on the BS side are those who are facing the shock of their perfect life being blown up by an unscrupulous WS. I don't think we see as many Bunny Boooger others on here because personality wise a forum such as this isn't going to give them mentally and emotionally what they crave.

[Liam1]

Hi Lady:

 

You, too, are rare in acknowledging that you weren't "giving it up at home".

 

Your situation may be different than some in that you admit you were not happy.

 

I belong to a Local BAN infidelity group. At a lot of the wives who were withholding sex, after much discussion will admit that they were happy without sex, and they thought the marriage was good, or maybe they just wanted to think that.

 

Hence they were blindsided by the affair.

 

My wife was also very happy without sex, and also thought our marriage was good, despite numerous discussions and requests for counseling.

 

She would just become chiding and insist our marriage was good.

 

In most other respects it was good.

 

Hence, she was blindsided by the affair.

 

The withholding sex is a very common complaint, apparently. Refusing counseling for it is also common because they don't want to confront the issue.

 

 

 

I do believe in many cases, BOTH are responsible for the state of the marriage. I've said this before, I was a lousy wife, my exH was a lousy husband. I don't know if he cheated, but I can tell you, I wasn't giving it up at home.

 

In my opinion only, there are a disproportionate number of BS on here who were the perfect spouse and never did anything that didn't love and cherish their nasty WS. Conversely, there seem to be a large number of Others who are with WS who aren't getting XYZ at home and are neglected and abused.

 

There are times the Other does post that he/she has been lied to about the state of affairs at home and has just discovered the AP was scamming them.

 

Yet, I rarely see a BS say, "I was a jerk. I knowingly didn't provide my spouse with XYZ. I didn't nurture the relationship." It's more like, "Things may have been bad.....BUT, that's no excuse for cheating!!!" Assuming the WS isn't a psychopath and player, I believe many of them make a couple of way too subtle attempts to correct a deficiency and then give up when it is met with a negative reaction. Then they are conflict avoidant. (Side note: Liam, I believe you are an amazing exception to this, hello, Unicorn!)

 

I do believe part of this is the nature of the beast. I think those who are more inclined to post on the BS side are those who are facing the shock of their perfect life being blown up by an unscrupulous WS. I don't think we see as many Bunny Boooger others on here because personality wise a forum such as this isn't going to give them mentally and emotionally what they crave.

[elaine567]

I belong to a Local BAN infidelity group. At a lot of the wives who were withholding sex, after much discussion will admit that they were happy without sex, and they thought the marriage was good, or maybe they just wanted to think that.

 

 

Were these wives actually deliberately "withholding" sex, or did they just not see sex as that important?

[Mrs. John Adams]

I would like to know why Liam's wife withheld sex.. And why now once a month is satisfactory for him and why she has decided that is appropriate.

 

I would like to know why she refused sex to begin with?

 

If it was a conscience decision and not a physical decision ...

why?

 

I would like to know if this is something within Buddhism ?

 

i have heard of this before from very broken man and naively sensitive ...so it makes me wonder how it is correlated .

[Lady2163]

Were these wives actually deliberately "withholding" sex, or did they just not see sex as that important?

 

In my case, I had a bait and switch husband. While we were dating foreplay lasted what seemed like hours. His hands and mouth were magic. Less than a year after we were married he told me he really didn't like giving oral sex and it was a turn off for him. Well, that was removed from the table, because it isn't easy to relax when someone is doing something they hate. Oh - he still expected regular blowjobs. Then we had an issue where he was working with his hands. Real men don't wear gloves or use lotion. So, I was getting frequent bladder infections and the roughness of his hands was not pleasurable on delicate parts. No amount of pleading or glove purchasing could make him take care of his hands.

 

So, no mouth and no hands on me.

 

And he was a two stroke. There were an awful lot of times he was a one stroke. Plunge and done.

 

So, no orgasms and no pleasure for me. I didn't have the communication skills I do now. We tried counseling and didn't have an effective counselor. We should have kept trying until we found a counselor. Eventually I gave up. I definitely wasn't happy.

 

Now, as an OW, and just as a person in general, I believe there are a lot people, men and women, with low sex drives. Sex is not that pleasurable for them. Some aspects - smell, taste, sticky sensation are distasteful. Some people my age and older were raised that it was dirty, it is only for procreation, it is only meant for a man's pleasure. Those beliefs are almost impossible to rewrite or change. I met a woman once who was advised in premarital counseling that God expected her to have sex whenever her husband wanted. She was committing a sin if she refused. She was not being an obedient wife and helpmate. She was not that much older than I am.

[Mrs. John Adams]

In my case, I had a bait and switch husband. While we were dating foreplay lasted what seemed like hours. His hands and mouth were magic. Less than a year after we were married he told me he really didn't like giving oral sex and it was a turn off for him. Well, that was removed from the table, because it isn't easy to relax when someone is doing something they hate. Oh - he still expected regular blowjobs. Then we had an issue where he was working with his hands. Real men don't wear gloves or use lotion. So, I was getting frequent bladder infections and the roughness of his hands was not pleasurable on delicate parts. No amount of pleading or glove purchasing could make him take care of his hands.

 

So, no mouth and no hands on me.

 

And he was a two stroke. There were an awful lot of times he was a one stroke. Plunge and done.

 

So, no orgasms and no pleasure for me. I didn't have the communication skills I do now. We tried counseling and didn't have an effective counselor. We should have kept trying until we found a counselor. Eventually I gave up. I definitely wasn't happy.

 

Now, as an OW, and just as a person in general, I believe there are a lot people, men and women, with low sex drives. Sex is not that pleasurable for them. Some aspects - smell, taste, sticky sensation are distasteful. Some people my age and older were raised that it was dirty, it is only for procreation, it is only meant for a man's pleasure. Those beliefs are almost impossible to rewrite or change. I met a woman once who was advised in premarital counseling that God expected her to have sex whenever her husband wanted. She was committing a sin if she refused. She was not being an obedient wife and helpmate. She was not that much older than I am.

 

Wow... Hello vibrator.

That's terrible.

[Lady2163]

Wow... Hello vibrator.

That's terrible.

 

This was before they were easy to get. The nearest store was about 75 minutes away and there wasn't any money for one.

 

It was pretty bad. From my exH perspective, I had a low libido. From my perspective I was done with hooker style sex.

[Gloria25]

If you are referring to the situation with my brother.

He wasn't working his butt off for his family, he was working hsi utt off because it suits his personality type to do so. He enjoys networking and socializing with clients, the traveling around the world on business, taking clients out on his sailboat, etc.

 

At the time- and this is what he tod me- he was happy because he got to do what he wanted all day long,and when he got home late at night, he expected her to be fresh as a daisy to spend time with him.

 

As for your BOTH spouses comment...this goes both ways. If a bs was responsible for the state of the marriage then so is the ws.

 

Ok, but did his wife "need" to work?

 

If she "chose" to work and trying to juggle it all left her too tired to be with him, then who's fault is that?

 

And, women who stay at home aren't in prison. If they wanna "socialize", network, and do stuff (like they argue men get to do by virtue of having a job) then get out and do stuff. Set up play dates with other moms, volunteer in your community and/or your kid's schools, set up and/or manage/teach/coach activities for your kids (ie soccer team, music club), make/set up book and/or hobby clubs.

 

I get so tired of the argument that men - by virtue of having a job - have a "life" and women are stuck at home with diapers. For one, a SAHM/SAHW is a priceless "job" cuz while hubby is at work, he may never see important things like your child's first steps. He won't be there to teach impromptu life lessons.

 

As if having a job is some great thing...pfft. What if your husband picks up trash for a living? You think he's got it better than you at home?

 

I've never been married, no kids, and worked all my life. I hated almost every job I've had. Dealing with people, customers, demands, etc....So, you think if I had a choice I'd chuck my husband and/or kids so that I can be a worker bee that can be replaced at a moment's notice? Who can replace a mom? Even adopted and or abused kids/people still want a connection with their natural parents.

 

And, this argument that you need to work and study to maintain independence in a marriage just in case you divorce? Well, with such a negative attitude about marriage, why marry in the first place? Besides, people who are like old (50s) and/or lacked education, work experience, etc do what they gotta do when "life" (divorce, death, illnesses) happened to them.

 

Now, I agree with Liam1 that it's unfair that even in dual income couples, women are still "expected" do maintain the house, kids, etc. Ok, again, that's the woman's fault. For one, why did you marry a guy who needs a 2nd income (yours) to sustain you both? Back in the day a guy dare not ask a woman for her hand in marriage if he can't afford her and a family. For two, if you have no problem with working, then why did you marry a guy who you couldn't discuss and/or agree upon hiring a maid and/or sharing the responsibilities of running a home? The dishes ain't gonna wash themselves...But still, IMO, what's the point in both people working if they have to "outsource" the cooking, cleaning, and care for kids? IMO, all these "partnerships" are destroying the family unit. I don't wanna be a man's "partner", I wanna be his wife and mother to our kids. Can't call myself his "wife" if I'm too tired to spend time with and/or sex him. Can't call myself a "mother" if I barely spend a few hours with my kids. Can you call yourself an "employee" if you barely show up for work and/or are too tired to do some of it? Can you not groom yourself and/or put on the company uniform cuz you're too tired to be bothered with it, yet expect a pay check? Then why should your husband, home, and family be low priority? You wouldn't do that to an employer.

 

So, keep your job, be too tired to make time for your man and marriage and the day he's fed up with you and cheats and/or divorces you, at least you'll have a steady job to fall back on.

[MissBee]

I continually read everywhere that no matter what was happening in the M, no matter how awful the BS was, there is no excuse for cheating. Is that correct?

 

So, is the assumption then that infidelity trumps all other hurts, abuses, misbehavior, and betrayals in an M? There is never even an abusive or painful marital 'tie'????

 

I think all hurts stand on their own basically and don't cancel each other out. There is no excuse for hitting someone for example, even if they cheated, lied and did other things. Cheating works the same. None of these behaviors are excusable and one happening before or after doesn't cancel the other out.

 

I think things can precipitate cheating and can make it understandable how someone got to that point, but that's really not the same as saying it is excusable.

 

Understandable and excusable are not the same. I think this may be what's getting confused.

 

I think at the most basic level, you can leave or stay in a relationship, those are your choices. You can cheat or not cheat. Yes stuff takes on more complex forms, but really at the end of the day, cheating is a choice that you make and unless it's a one night stand, it's a choice you have to make each day you're doing it....if you are done with your marriage and are cheating on the last leg to divorce it's not excusable but more understandable. Different forms and types of cheating and why can be more understandable or less so but excusable , no.

[JohnAdams]

Different forms and types of cheating and why can be more understandable or less so but excusable , no.

 

I think you make a good point. I had a RA after my wife's affair, understandable maybe, excusable, absolutely not.

 

Many if not most have a reason, an excuse to cheat and perhaps it is even understandable, but absolutely not excusable.

[elaine567]

From my exH perspective, I had a low libido. From my perspective I was done with hooker style sex.

 

I have a feeling this maybe more common than is presently perceived to be the case.

[purplesorrow]

Ok, but did his wife "need" to work?

 

If she "chose" to work and trying to juggle it all left her too tired to be with him, then who's fault is that?

 

And, women who stay at home aren't in prison. If they wanna "socialize", network, and do stuff (like they argue men get to do by virtue of having a job) then get out and do stuff. Set up play dates with other moms, volunteer in your community and/or your kid's schools, set up and/or manage/teach/coach activities for your kids (ie soccer team, music club), make/set up book and/or hobby clubs.

 

I get so tired of the argument that men - by virtue of having a job - have a "life" and women are stuck at home with diapers. For one, a SAHM/SAHW is a priceless "job" cuz while hubby is at work, he may never see important things like your child's first steps. He won't be there to teach impromptu life lessons.

 

As if having a job is some great thing...pfft. What if your husband picks up trash for a living? You think he's got it better than you at home?

 

I've never been married, no kids, and worked all my life. I hated almost every job I've had. Dealing with people, customers, demands, etc....So, you think if I had a choice I'd chuck my husband and/or kids so that I can be a worker bee that can be replaced at a moment's notice? Who can replace a mom? Even adopted and or abused kids/people still want a connection with their natural parents.

 

And, this argument that you need to work and study to maintain independence in a marriage just in case you divorce? Well, with such a negative attitude about marriage, why marry in the first place? Besides, people who are like old (50s) and/or lacked education, work experience, etc do what they gotta do when "life" (divorce, death, illnesses) happened to them.

 

Now, I agree with Liam1 that it's unfair that even in dual income couples, women are still "expected" do maintain the house, kids, etc. Ok, again, that's the woman's fault. For one, why did you marry a guy who needs a 2nd income (yours) to sustain you both? Back in the day a guy dare not ask a woman for her hand in marriage if he can't afford her and a family. For two, if you have no problem with working, then why did you marry a guy who you couldn't discuss and/or agree upon hiring a maid and/or sharing the responsibilities of running a home? The dishes ain't gonna wash themselves...But still, IMO, what's the point in both people working if they have to "outsource" the cooking, cleaning, and care for kids? IMO, all these "partnerships" are destroying the family unit. I don't wanna be a man's "partner", I wanna be his wife and mother to our kids. Can't call myself his "wife" if I'm too tired to spend time with and/or sex him. Can't call myself a "mother" if I barely spend a few hours with my kids. Can you call yourself an "employee" if you barely show up for work and/or are too tired to do some of it? Can you not groom yourself and/or put on the company uniform cuz you're too tired to be bothered with it, yet expect a pay check? Then why should your husband, home, and family be low priority? You wouldn't do that to an employer.

 

So, keep your job, be too tired to make time for your man and marriage and the day he's fed up with you and cheats and/or divorces you, at least you'll have a steady job to fall back on.

 

Men were cheating when women were not even allowed to work outside the home. Why are you blaming women for everything? Do men have no faults? Who said just because a women works her family is a low priority? Plenty of people, men and women work and still take care of their family and each other. My ex got three cooked meals a day, would come home to a clean cozy home and sex. He still wanted more. People cheat because they want to. I hope when you get married, you're able to live up to your ideas.

[wmacbride]

Ok, but did his wife "need" to work?

 

If she "chose" to work and trying to juggle it all left her too tired to be with him, then who's fault is that?

 

And, women who stay at home aren't in prison. If they wanna "socialize", network, and do stuff (like they argue men get to do by virtue of having a job) then get out and do stuff. Set up play dates with other moms, volunteer in your community and/or your kid's schools, set up and/or manage/teach/coach activities for your kids (ie soccer team, music club), make/set up book and/or hobby clubs.

 

I get so tired of the argument that men - by virtue of having a job - have a "life" and women are stuck at home with diapers. For one, a SAHM/SAHW is a priceless "job" cuz while hubby is at work, he may never see important things like your child's first steps. He won't be there to teach impromptu life lessons.

 

As if having a job is some great thing...pfft. What if your husband picks up trash for a living? You think he's got it better than you at home?

 

I've never been married, no kids, and worked all my life. I hated almost every job I've had. Dealing with people, customers, demands, etc....So, you think if I had a choice I'd chuck my husband and/or kids so that I can be a worker bee that can be replaced at a moment's notice? Who can replace a mom? Even adopted and or abused kids/people still want a connection with their natural parents.

 

And, this argument that you need to work and study to maintain independence in a marriage just in case you divorce? Well, with such a negative attitude about marriage, why marry in the first place? Besides, people who are like old (50s) and/or lacked education, work experience, etc do what they gotta do when "life" (divorce, death, illnesses) happened to them.

 

Now, I agree with Liam1 that it's unfair that even in dual income couples, women are still "expected" do maintain the house, kids, etc. Ok, again, that's the woman's fault. For one, why did you marry a guy who needs a 2nd income (yours) to sustain you both? Back in the day a guy dare not ask a woman for her hand in marriage if he can't afford her and a family. For two, if you have no problem with working, then why did you marry a guy who you couldn't discuss and/or agree upon hiring a maid and/or sharing the responsibilities of running a home? The dishes ain't gonna wash themselves...But still, IMO, what's the point in both people working if they have to "outsource" the cooking, cleaning, and care for kids? IMO, all these "partnerships" are destroying the family unit. I don't wanna be a man's "partner", I wanna be his wife and mother to our kids. Can't call myself his "wife" if I'm too tired to spend time with and/or sex him. Can't call myself a "mother" if I barely spend a few hours with my kids. Can you call yourself an "employee" if you barely show up for work and/or are too tired to do some of it? Can you not groom yourself and/or put on the company uniform cuz you're too tired to be bothered with it, yet expect a pay check? Then why should your husband, home, and family be low priority? You wouldn't do that to an employer.

 

So, keep your job, be too tired to make time for your man and marriage and the day he's fed up with you and cheats and/or divorces you, at least you'll have a steady job to fall back on.

 

 

My mom and dad were married for 50 years, and she worked, as did he. She worked to put him through school, and when he got a good job, she kept working, albeit part time. He got further educated, and eventually got tenure, and she kept on working.

 

They got married in the early 60's, back when many wives stayed at home. Guess what? cheating was every bit as common for men then. they just use different excuses to cover their butts for doing so. Back then, it was that the wife was at home with the kids all day, boring, dowdy, frumpy. Even if she took great pains with her appearance and kept herself in the know so they would have things to talk about, it didn't make any difference.

 

Some men, and women too, cheat because it's part fo their nature to do so. For this group of ws, nothing the bs does or doesn't do will make a difference. As an extreme example, Take Kennedy. His wife was beautiful educated,accomplished, always there for him and by many accounts, she was the perfect wife. Didn't stop him from sneaking around.

 

In my brother's case, he cheated on the ow he left his first wife for and married. He is a personality type that always needs a challenge and to him, cheating provided that.

 

btw, you've never been married, but if and when you ever are, you might find the situation to be quite different than you expect it to be. Very few families are able to get by on one income, and I'm not talking just about luxuries but necessities as well. We were lucky when our kids were small that I was able to stay at home. Some families don't have that option. Even if they do, in an unstable economy, a wife should be expected to have a career if possible, as if she doesn't and hubby loses his job, what will they have to fall back on? What if he passes away? What would happen then?

As I said, I've been a stay at home mom and now I work, so I have seen both side of the fence. It can be really scary to not have an income to fall back on in an emergency. Saying a w deserves to be cheated on because she works and "isn't there for her man" is pretty naive.

[MJJean]

Were these wives actually deliberately "withholding" sex, or did they just not see sex as that important?

 

Marriage is a sexual relationship. Knowing this, I don't think there is any difference. Either way, it's clear that not having sex in a sexual relationship is a glaring indictor of something seriously wrong. Spouses who ignore that do so at their peril.

 

I've never understood how someone who isn't having sex with their H or W could be "blindsided" when they are served with divorce papers and/or their spouse had an affair. After not meeting their spouses basic marital needs for an extended period of time, what did they think was going to happen? Yeesh.

[Liam1]

I am sorry to hear about your bait and switch husband, IMO, what you have described is a very neglectful self absorbed husband.

 

I think his behavior was unacceptable.

 

I do understand that woman also have affairs because sex with their spouse is of the wham bam thank ya' maam type.

 

Now, as an OW, and just as a person in general, I believe there are a lot people, men and women, with low sex drives. Sex is not that pleasurable for them. Some aspects - smell, taste, sticky sensation are distasteful. Some people my age and older were raised that it was dirty, it is only for procreation, it is only meant for a man's pleasure. Those beliefs are almost impossible to rewrite or change. I met a woman once who was advised in premarital counseling that God expected her to have sex whenever her husband wanted. She was committing a sin if she refused. She was not being an obedient wife and helpmate. She was not that much older than I am.

That is why, IMO, in some European and island cultures having an affair for both the man and the woman is considered acceptable and is tolerated.

 

Some people are good mates, but for various reasons, they are just not that into sex, whether they are a man or a woman. In some cultures those spouses do not care if their mate seeks sexual satisfaction elsewhere.

 

So the opinion that an affair is ALWAYS wrong is not a universal one. It is simply a puritanical one.

 

In my case, I had a bait and switch husband. While we were dating foreplay lasted what seemed like hours. His hands and mouth were magic. Less than a year after we were married he told me he really didn't like giving oral sex and it was a turn off for him. Well, that was removed from the table, because it isn't easy to relax when someone is doing something they hate. Oh - he still expected regular blowjobs. Then we had an issue where he was working with his hands. Real men don't wear gloves or use lotion. So, I was getting frequent bladder infections and the roughness of his hands was not pleasurable on delicate parts. No amount of pleading or glove purchasing could make him take care of his hands.

 

So, no mouth and no hands on me.

 

And he was a two stroke. There were an awful lot of times he was a one stroke. Plunge and done.

 

So, no orgasms and no pleasure for me. I didn't have the communication skills I do now. We tried counseling and didn't have an effective counselor. We should have kept trying until we found a counselor. Eventually I gave up. I definitely wasn't happy.

 

Now, as an OW, and just as a person in general, I believe there are a lot people, men and women, with low sex drives. Sex is not that pleasurable for them. Some aspects - smell, taste, sticky sensation are distasteful. Some people my age and older were raised that it was dirty, it is only for procreation, it is only meant for a man's pleasure. Those beliefs are almost impossible to rewrite or change. I met a woman once who was advised in premarital counseling that God expected her to have sex whenever her husband wanted. She was committing a sin if she refused. She was not being an obedient wife and helpmate. She was not that much older than I am.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Liam1

[Liam1]

Marriage is a sexual relationship. Knowing this, I don't think there is any difference. Either way, it's clear that not having sex in a sexual relationship is a glaring indicator of something seriously wrong. Spouses who ignore that do so at their peril.

 

I've never understood how someone who isn't having sex with their H or W could be "blindsided" when they are served with divorce papers and/or their spouse had an affair. After not meeting their spouses basic marital needs for an extended period of time, what did they think was going to happen? Yeesh.

 

Exactly, MJ.

 

I have not read all the posts.

 

However, my infidelity counselor told my wife this. Ignoring the sexual aspects of a marriage is the leading cause of affairs.

 

If the man is not providing the wife with satisfying sex, that can be discussed and corrected with appropriate counseling.

 

But if the low or no sex drive spouse absolutely and repeatedly refuses counseling. That is very wrong.

 

Not all cultures see an affair as wrong.

 

My wife has told me and our counselor numerous times, that a sexual affair was not a deal breaker for her.

 

If it is a deal breaker for someone, well that's fine. But not everyone thinks the same way.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Liam1

[Lady2163]

I am sorry to hear about your bait and switch husband, IMO, what you have described is a very neglectful self absorbed husband.

 

I think his behavior was unacceptable.

 

I do understand that woman also have affairs because sex with their spouse is of the wham bam thank ya' maam type.

 

That is why, IMO, in some European and island cultures having an affair for both the man and the woman is considered acceptable and is tolerated.

 

Some people are good mates, but for various reasons, they are just not that into sex, whether they are a man or a woman. In some cultures those spouses do not care if their mate seeks sexual satisfaction elsewhere.

 

So the opinion that an affair is ALWAYS wrong is not a universal one. It is simply a puritanical one.

 

Thanks, Liam. He was pretty awful and it wore me down to a shell. But, in the end, I wasn't a very good wife. He selfishness, led me to be selfish as a response. He wasn't taking care of me, so I had to take care of me. At the end, we weren't a couple, we weren't a partnership, we were two individuals looking out for only ourselves. I've seen it referred to as 1000 little cuts. Each cut by itself won't kill the marriage, but combined will destroy it. I would still say his cut count was higher than mine, but I was not an innocent.

 

I'm older. I'm wiser, I'm smarter about life. While I never want him back, I wish I could take some of the skills I have now and use them back then.

 

But, we also had different unspoken long term goals. I was steering us (unsuccessfully) in one direction, because this is what I thought he/we wanted. I realize now, some of the things he did to sabotage me - and our existence was passive aggressive AND because he didn't really want a nice house and kids. He wanted to sit and watch movies and the History channel and have lots of two stroke sex and have someone else take care of all other responsibilities and unpleasant tasks. He was stuck in childhood and I didn't see that.

 

He's 55 now and probably at the emotional maturity level of a 30 year old. He's making his way. I think his girlfriend has a lot simpler needs and wants than I did. And I think they're happy. Which is just fine.

[velvette]

I continually read everywhere that no matter what was happening in the M, no matter how awful the BS was, there is no excuse for cheating. Is that correct?

 

So, is the assumption then that infidelity trumps all other hurts, abuses, misbehavior, and betrayals in an M? There is never even an abusive or painful marital 'tie'????

 

Most of us teach our kids that cheating is wrong.....on tests, at cards or board games. We don't say if the test is too hard or you aren't ready for it that is ok to cheat. We don't say if you're mad at your friend or sibling its ok to cheat while playing a game with them. Why would there be an excuse for cheating in marriage.

 

 

Cheating is generally the result of someone giving up on solving either their own personal problems or whatever problem they are feeling exists in their M, which by the way may not even be the real problem. Could be some combo of both.

 

 

The difference between cheating and other marital problems for the most part is other hurtful things are done in the open and you have a choice about how to deal with them.

[Lady2163]

Most of us teach our kids that cheating is wrong.....on tests, at cards or board games. We don't say if the test is too hard or you aren't ready for it that is ok to cheat. We don't say if you're mad at your friend or sibling its ok to cheat while playing a game with them. Why would there be an excuse for cheating in marriage.

 

 

Cheating is generally the result of someone giving up on solving either their own personal problems or whatever problem they are feeling exists in their M, which by the way may not even be the real problem. Could be some combo of both.

 

 

The difference between cheating and other marital problems for the most part is other hurtful things are done in the open and you have a choice about how to deal with them.

 

This is a lot like comparing apples to oranges.

 

You do realize the prevalence of cheating in the classroom has drastically multiplied?

 

Parents demand their child not be given an F or zero when they are caught cheating. Parents fight school boards when children plagiarize or all they do is "give someone else the answer." After all, their child didn't cheat, they did their own work, they just made it possible for another child to get a better grade than they deserved.

 

I worked at a place once where we were paid hourly, up to the quarter hour. If you clocked out at 4:52 PM, you were paid only until 4:45. People would sit and wait for 4:53 so they got paid for the full 15 minutes up to 5:00 PM.

 

I don't believe it is valid to compare cheating in school, work, marriage, taxes and life in general.