Curious about this sentiment . . .[there is no excuse for cheating]

[velvette]

This is a lot like comparing apples to oranges.

 

You do realize the prevalence of cheating in the classroom has drastically multiplied?

 

Parents demand their child not be given an F or zero when they are caught cheating. Parents fight school boards when children plagiarize or all they do is "give someone else the answer." After all, their child didn't cheat, they did their own work, they just made it possible for another child to get a better grade than they deserved.

 

I worked at a place once where we were paid hourly, up to the quarter hour. If you clocked out at 4:52 PM, you were paid only until 4:45. People would sit and wait for 4:53 so they got paid for the full 15 minutes up to 5:00 PM.

 

I don't believe it is valid to compare cheating in school, work, marriage, taxes and life in general.

 

 

I'm aware that academic cheating has greatly increased. It usually starts in middle school or high school. But, I don't know any parents like you describe and the fact is that most academic cheaters don't get caught(probably a lot like most marital cheaters). So, I don't think your belief that parents taught these kids its ok to cheat is supported. At an age when kids are becoming more independent of their parents and more influenced by the world at large, I don't see that necessarily. Sure, where the parents go in and demand kids are rewarded for cheating. But, those who don't get caught? I don't know. Perhaps they are succumbing to some other pressure. They are still kids...who knows if they develop more integrity later or not.

 

 

You are either honest or not. Cheater or not. You have integrity or you don't. No one is perfect, but people with integrity strive to do what they believe is the right thing and they don't base that on the bad behavior of others.

 

 

Same with tax cheats. Most small time tax cheats get away with it if they keep their cheating under the radar that triggers an audit.

 

 

The time clock cheats......surely the company could stop that if they wanted to, so clearly they don't care and see it as a cost of doing business.

 

 

Regardless, rational people know that stealing is stealing, cheating is cheating, lying is lying............its not apples to oranges.

[Arieswoman]

Velvette nails it here, #149 ;

 

The difference between cheating and other marital problems for the most part is other hurtful things are done in the open and you have a choice about how to deal with them.

 

Cheating doesn't come alone.

 

It comes with lying, gaslighting, "stealing" time and money from the primary relationship to spend with/on the AP, removing the BS's right of informed choice. etc etc.

 

I could say more but I think you get my point.

[NYWoman]

L1263

 

 

We might have married twins with my second husband.

His change came right after we had twin boys, when he started to become very selfish. With monies we had saved we bought a very large house on a acre of land, pool, trees, small barn for horses, even a small stream at the edge.

We started the boys in parochial school.

Then he received a very large court settlement, from a case he filed several years earlier. It was not community property. He now had the funds to do what ever he wanted. Fishing trips to Alaska, Mexico, the Daytona and Indianapolis 500, season tickets to football. Always by himself and or with a friend. His family stayed behind.

Oh the fights we had. To D was impossible, we would have to sell the house, and he had the funds to buy me out. In short, I would have to abandon my boys.

Twelve years with a vibrator, was very boring, I wanted and needed the real thing. I never did cheat, but I look back at it and wish I had as it was 12 years I will never get back

When the boys graduated and moved out I went with.

[Liam1]

 

Regardless, rational people know that stealing is stealing, cheating is cheating, lying is lying............its not apples to oranges.

 

Yes, IMO, it is NOT A valid comparison.

 

Not all infidelity involves cheating.

 

Cheating indicates that you are taking something that you don't deserve. Or, taking something away from someone else.

 

For example if you copy answers for a test, than you don't deserve an A.

 

If you steal something from someone, you are taking something away from them that does not belong to you.

 

Having an affair to fill a deficit in your marriage whether it be lack of respect, or lack of sex, lack or affection, is not getting something you don't deserve.

 

You can't take something away from someone if they don't value it.

 

Perhaps by the standard you suggest, then the person who is being disrespectful or withholding sex, could be labeled a cheater because that person is cheating the other spouse out of things that are expected to occur in a normal healthy marriage.

 

Cheating is a term used in infidelity because supposedly it is ASSUMED that the unfaithful spouse is cheating the loyal spouse out of something.

 

But not every unfaithful spouse is doing that. For example, my wife and I had joint bank accounts but we also had our own play money accounts. That money was to do frivolous things we like to do that the other spouse did not.

 

During my affair, I only used money from my play money account. So, I was not cheating my wife out of our joint income.

 

During my affair, I did not have to lie to my wife, because she never asked where I was or what I was doing.

 

She was off doing her own thing, and did not care to ask where I was.

 

Conversely, do you think my wife was cheating me out of a normal marital expectation by withholding sex for no other reason than she felt that it was no longer important to her, even though it was still important to me.

 

Also, you assume that everyone feels that someone who has had an affair lacks integrity. Not everyone feels that label applies in all cases.

 

Isn't being disrespectful an indication of a lack of integrity. Isn't dictating unrealistic terms of a marriage that only make one partner happy an indication of lack of integrity.

 

Also, what about my couple's friend's wife who has told her husband she does not care if he has an affair as long as he leaves her alone sexually. Is that cheating?

 

If so, what exactly is he cheating his wife out of.

 

Who is exactly cheating whom out of their normal marital expectations?

 

You can not assume that everyone shares your mindset.

 

In fact, with the rise of infidelity, I think fewer and fewer people share your mindset in the USA and around the world.

 

A few years after my affair, and after much counseling, my wife one day actually apologized to me for unilaterally deciding that sex was no longer important to a marriage.

 

She said she now realizes it was wrong.

 

That is why our reconciliation is working well. She was willing to take a hard look at her own actions.

[Revolver]

This is true but what I don't agree with is this idea of you're a horrible person because you ever cheated, or you can never be capable of a faithful relationship.

 

For example if I'm a 16 year old guy who cheats on my first girlfriend that doesn't mean that I'm going to cheat on my wife when I'm 35. I'm a completely different person at that point

[Mrs. John Adams]

This is true but what I don't agree with is this idea of you're a horrible person because you ever cheated, or you can never be capable of a faithful relationship.

 

For example if I'm a 16 year old guy who cheats on my first girlfriend that doesn't mean that I'm going to cheat on my wife when I'm 35. I'm a completely different person at that point

 

I agree with you. I am not a terrible person because I cheated. I did a terrible thing. If I have done the work to understand why I allowed myself to become a person I do not recognize... If I understand and feel true remorse for what I did.... If I hold myself completely accountable ... If I become completely transparent to the one I betrayed... And set boundaries... I can say I am a good person who did a bad thing... And I have learned from that bad choice I made.

 

I do not allow my infidelity to define who I am.

[wmacbride]

There are many people who stay in less than stellar marriages and don't cheat. They don't because they ethical and moral code sees that level of dishonesty as wrong.

 

 

There are those who will tie themselves in knots to justify their actions.

 

I've got kids, and one fo the first moral lessons I have taught the is to be honest and that lying is not okay, including lies by omission. Just because a spouse doesn't ask t does not make what the ws is doing any less dishonest.

 

It's akin to saying a bank employee who is skimming money off accounts and no one has caught them is not being dishonest, or someone who plagiarizes anther's work is not dishonest, even if the original author never finds out.

[wmacbride]

This is true but what I don't agree with is this idea of you're a horrible person because you ever cheated, or you can never be capable of a faithful relationship.

 

For example if I'm a 16 year old guy who cheats on my first girlfriend that doesn't mean that I'm going to cheat on my wife when I'm 35. I'm a completely different person at that point

 

 

True enough.

 

Some people cheat in a relationship, learn from it, and move on to never do it again.

[wmacbride]

I agree with you. I am not a terrible person because I cheated. I did a terrible thing. If I have done the work to understand why I allowed myself to become a person I do not recognize... If I understand and feel true remorse for what I did.... If I hold myself completely accountable ... If I become completely transparent to the one I betrayed... And set boundaries... I can say I am a good person who did a bad thing... And I have learned from that bad choice I made.

 

I do not allow my infidelity to define who I am.

 

That's a good way to be.

 

It doesn't define who you are but it was part fo the learning process that made you who you are today. It sounds like you took a negative experience and used it for personal growth.

[Mrs. John Adams]

That's a good way to be.

 

It doesn't define who you are but it was part fo the learning process that made you who you are today. It sounds like you took a negative experience and used it for personal growth.

 

That is what I strive for everyday.. To be the best wife I can be. To take nothing for granted... To be grateful for all I have.

[Lady2163]

L1263

 

 

We might have married twins with my second husband.

His change came right after we had twin boys, when he started to become very selfish. With monies we had saved we bought a very large house on a acre of land, pool, trees, small barn for horses, even a small stream at the edge.

We started the boys in parochial school.

Then he received a very large court settlement, from a case he filed several years earlier. It was not community property. He now had the funds to do what ever he wanted. Fishing trips to Alaska, Mexico, the Daytona and Indianapolis 500, season tickets to football. Always by himself and or with a friend. His family stayed behind.

Oh the fights we had. To D was impossible, we would have to sell the house, and he had the funds to buy me out. In short, I would have to abandon my boys.

Twelve years with a vibrator, was very boring, I wanted and needed the real thing. I never did cheat, but I look back at it and wish I had as it was 12 years I will never get back

When the boys graduated and moved out I went with.

 

I didn't cheat when I was married, either. Sometimes I do resent giving the best years of my life to someone who didn't have the same life goals, but pretended he did as long as he needed to. What a total waste of my potential.

 

"I coulda been a contender...."

 

Shudder....if he had the big settlement....

 

He would have sat on his butt watching tv and movies all day. He wouldn't have done any repairs or remodeling to our 100 year old house, and would have fought every step of the way of paying someone else to do them.

 

I had a five year plan at one point. I hadn't started all of it, but I was planning to leave in five years. This would have been five more years of equity in the house and I would have my college degree. What I hadn't started doing yet - and wanted to was to squirrel away some money. Whenever I had a few extra dollars, I always felt that because I was so miserable, I was allowed to sneak off and have a steak dinner or buy that pair of shoes. So many of my wants and needs weren't met, I just couldn't sacrifice one more thing.

 

He left me two months after the death of a parent. Because I was depressed.

 

Because I didn't cheat and because of that and because he was so unsupportive, I had no qualms about demanding alimony. I only wish I had continued it until I remarried - as was my option. Instead, I put a minimal time frame on it and I asked for 1/6 of his income when I was entitled to 1/2. I wish I had asked for 1/4 and not had the time limit, but I was unable to be convinced by lawyers and friends. I felt it was more honorable to not gouge him for the rest of his life.

 

I'm glad you left, and I hope you are happy and the kids are healthy and content!

[Lady2163]

Yes, IMO, it is NOT A valid comparison.

 

Not all infidelity involves cheating.

 

Cheating indicates that you are taking something that you don't deserve. Or, taking something away from someone else.

 

For example if you copy answers for a test, than you don't deserve an A.

 

If you steal something from someone, you are taking something away from them that does not belong to you.

 

Having an affair to fill a deficit in your marriage whether it be lack of respect, or lack of sex, lack or affection, is not getting something you don't deserve.

 

You can't take something away from someone if they don't value it.

 

Perhaps by the standard you suggest, then the person who is being disrespectful or withholding sex, could be labeled a cheater because that person is cheating the other spouse out of things that are expected to occur in a normal healthy marriage.

 

Cheating is a term used in infidelity because supposedly it is ASSUMED that the unfaithful spouse is cheating the loyal spouse out of something.

 

But not every unfaithful spouse is doing that. For example, my wife and I had joint bank accounts but we also had our own play money accounts. That money was to do frivolous things we like to do that the other spouse did not.

 

During my affair, I only used money from my play money account. So, I was not cheating my wife out of our joint income.

 

During my affair, I did not have to lie to my wife, because she never asked where I was or what I was doing.

 

She was off doing her own thing, and did not care to ask where I was.

 

Conversely, do you think my wife was cheating me out of a normal marital expectation by withholding sex for no other reason than she felt that it was no longer important to her, even though it was still important to me.

 

Also, you assume that everyone feels that someone who has had an affair lacks integrity. Not everyone feels that label applies in all cases.

 

Isn't being disrespectful an indication of a lack of integrity. Isn't dictating unrealistic terms of a marriage that only make one partner happy an indication of lack of integrity.

 

Also, what about my couple's friend's wife who has told her husband she does not care if he has an affair as long as he leaves her alone sexually. Is that cheating?

 

If so, what exactly is he cheating his wife out of.

 

Who is exactly cheating whom out of their normal marital expectations?

 

You can not assume that everyone shares your mindset.

 

In fact, with the rise of infidelity, I think fewer and fewer people share your mindset in the USA and around the world.

 

A few years after my affair, and after much counseling, my wife one day actually apologized to me for unilaterally deciding that sex was no longer important to a marriage.

 

She said she now realizes it was wrong.

 

That is why our reconciliation is working well. She was willing to take a hard look at her own actions.

 

 

Okay, I like this a whole lot. And not just because I'm an exOW. When a spouse denies the other spouse sex, they are cheating them out of something and I think it is too easy to ignore that.

 

I like it because it focuses on a pet peeve of mine, both in marriage and in life.

 

Why do we treat the ones we supposedly love like their wants and needs don't matter? Why do we justify 1000 little cuts to a person's soul? I'm female, so my next examples are of men making the cutting. How many times is acceptable for a man to "forget" to put out the garbage? Why do men think it is okay not to run the errand you were asked to or agreed to? You are "cheating" your partner out of a reliable spouse. You are making it hard for them to count on you.

 

I'm not saying that the thought process should be: he didn't put out the trash, so I'm going to have sex with someone else, but I just don't understand why so many people sabotage the ones they love and then play the victim.

 

If a spouse is abusive, neglectful or denying sex, they are sabotaging the relationship and the person they supposedly love.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Okay, I like this a whole lot. And not just because I'm an exOW. When a spouse denies the other spouse sex, they are cheating them out of something and I think it is too easy to ignore that.

 

I like it because it focuses on a pet peeve of mine, both in marriage and in life.

 

Why do we treat the ones we supposedly love like their wants and needs don't matter? Why do we justify 1000 little cuts to a person's soul? I'm female, so my next examples are of men making the cutting. How many times is acceptable for a man to "forget" to put out the garbage? Why do men think it is okay not to run the errand you were asked to or agreed to? You are "cheating" your partner out of a reliable spouse. You are making it hard for them to count on you.

 

I'm not saying that the thought process should be: he didn't put out the trash, so I'm going to have sex with someone else, but I just don't understand why so many people sabotage the ones they love and then play the victim.

 

If a spouse is abusive, neglectful or denying sex, they are sabotaging the relationship and the person they supposedly love.

 

I have a really hard time comparing not taking out the trash to sneaking behind your spouses back to screw somebody else.

[jasmineb]

I think there are many people who confuse a thing being understandable or having a reason with a thing being justified. If a person believes that lying to their spouse and breaking a very fundamental marriage vow is wrong then does a spouse's shortcoming or even neglect make the wrong right? That is what justification is at its center: a wrong becoming right.

 

I believe that hurting or neglecting or not giving intimacy to your spouse is wrong. It is breaking a promise too. But the wrong of that does not make the wrong of cheating right. Likewise, the wrong of cheating does not make the neglect and hurtful behavior right.

 

I think it is valid for a cheating spouse to say that they felt desperate or lonely or neglected and that is what led them to choose to cheat. I do not think it is valid or right for the cheating spouse to say that their cheating was okay or good because they were desperate or hurt or neglected. When someone cheats on their spouse and then indicates that it is not their responsibility and it was not wrong then that is a person whose morals and character I cannot respect.

[Lady2163]

I have a really hard time comparing not taking out the trash to sneaking behind your spouses back to screw somebody else.

 

See fourth paragraph of the post. I already indicated that line of thinking isn't what I was going for.

 

If I were to expand on this....let's say, not taking out the garbage is only one of a dozen things a spouse does a day or 100 things they do each week that devalues the other spouse. There is a decided lack of care and concern and willingness to be a partner in the relationship. And it is done one little thing at a time.

[Furious]

If I were unhappy with my spouse, would that give me the right to sleep with someone else's spouse, is my situation, do my wants and needs supercede inserting myself into someone else's marriage. I find it perplexing that for many cheaters it's only about themselves, that only they are hurting but it doesn't compute that their actions can hurt others.

 

There seems to be disconnect in many WS's singular loop reasoning as to the consequence to themselves and to others in their justification to cheat.

[jasmineb]

It seems that we no longer live a society where I am responsible for my own choices and morals. The tend is to say "I did this because he/she did that so that makes it okay." This is a very childish and narcissistic way to think.

[Mrs. John Adams]

See fourth paragraph of the post. I already indicated that line of thinking isn't what I was going for.

 

If I were to expand on this....let's say, not taking out the garbage is only one of a dozen things a spouse does a day or 100 things they do each week that devalues the other spouse. There is a decided lack of care and concern and willingness to be a partner in the relationship. And it is done one little thing at a time.

 

If your spouse is a bad spouse... You work on it. If they are unwilling to do so... You ask them if it is ok for you to get what you need they are not supplying elsewhere.

 

You do not assume it is ok and go have an affair. You might be surprised how quickly they decide to fix it when confronted with the possibility that their spouse is going to have an affair.

 

What you cheat them out of is a say. I am fine with an open marriage... Because everything is on the up and up. Everything is disclosed. There are no secrets.

 

When you cheat as in screwing someone else... You did it without their knowledge... And without asking their opinion. A marriage involves two people...cheating silences one voice.

[wmacbride]

See fourth paragraph of the post. I already indicated that line of thinking isn't what I was going for.

 

If I were to expand on this....let's say, not taking out the garbage is only one of a dozen things a spouse does a day or 100 things they do each week that devalues the other spouse. There is a decided lack of care and concern and willingness to be a partner in the relationship. And it is done one little thing at a time.

 

 

It sounds like your marriage was pretty horrendous, but you still didn't cheat.

 

If you don't mind me asking, why is that?

[JohnAdams]

Often cheaters justify their actions by blaming their betrayed spouse. This shows that no remorse exists. Unfortunately, many BS just settle and live with this type of abuse. There is always an option that does not include infidelity. Many BS are told by the WS after the affair, you did not meet my needs, you did not give me sex, you did not whatever. Blame shifting is a ploy that many WS do to justify their actions. I know WS who have said I never lied....since the BS never asked and perhaps never suspected, but a lie by omission is still a lie. To some WS the affair may be a wake up call that shows them flaws in their basic character to other WS there is justification of their actions to protect their own ego.

[wmacbride]

When it comes right down to it, the only one who is responsible for their choice sis the person who makes them.

 

It's one thing to say " I had an affair. I was in a bad place because of x, y and z and I handled the situation really baldy. I;m sorry for that"

 

It's quite another to say ' I cheated, but if you had/ hadn't been doing x, y and z I would never have done that. You should be apologizing to me for putting me in a position where I made that choice"

 

The second puts me in mind of someone who paces all the blame for an A on the om or ow because they "seduced" the wayward spouse.

[Lady2163]

It sounds like your marriage was pretty horrendous, but you still didn't cheat.

 

If you don't mind me asking, why is that?

 

I wasn't a saint. I was trying to find an exit affair, but just couldn't. I was working job that paid just a smidge over minimum wage and most of my coworkers were poor as well. It was in the mental health field and you don't always get the cream of the crop in the residential field. I was going to a local community college first and then would have to commute to a four year college. Most of the non traditional students were struggling as well.

 

My hobbies are/were pretty solitary and there wasn't a lot of money for socializing.

 

I just wasn't meeting men who were giving me a spark of chemistry and who were aligned with what I wanted,

 

Had I met someone, I think I would have cheated and abandoned my five year plan.

 

I wasn't willing to settle or go from one bad relationship to another.

 

I still have the belief that my second marriage will be with someone much more compatible. But I'm also in favor of living together for two years or more.

[velvette]

Yes, IMO, it is NOT A valid comparison.

 

Not all infidelity involves cheating.

 

Cheating indicates that you are taking something that you don't deserve. Or, taking something away from someone else.

 

For example if you copy answers for a test, than you don't deserve an A.

 

If you steal something from someone, you are taking something away from them that does not belong to you.

 

Having an affair to fill a deficit in your marriage whether it be lack of respect, or lack of sex, lack or affection, is not getting something you don't deserve.

 

You can't take something away from someone if they don't value it.

 

Perhaps by the standard you suggest, then the person who is being disrespectful or withholding sex, could be labeled a cheater because that person is cheating the other spouse out of things that are expected to occur in a normal healthy marriage.

 

Cheating is a term used in infidelity because supposedly it is ASSUMED that the unfaithful spouse is cheating the loyal spouse out of something.

 

But not every unfaithful spouse is doing that. For example, my wife and I had joint bank accounts but we also had our own play money accounts. That money was to do frivolous things we like to do that the other spouse did not.

 

During my affair, I only used money from my play money account. So, I was not cheating my wife out of our joint income.

 

During my affair, I did not have to lie to my wife, because she never asked where I was or what I was doing.

 

She was off doing her own thing, and did not care to ask where I was.

 

Conversely, do you think my wife was cheating me out of a normal marital expectation by withholding sex for no other reason than she felt that it was no longer important to her, even though it was still important to me.

 

Also, you assume that everyone feels that someone who has had an affair lacks integrity. Not everyone feels that label applies in all cases.

 

Isn't being disrespectful an indication of a lack of integrity. Isn't dictating unrealistic terms of a marriage that only make one partner happy an indication of lack of integrity.

 

Also, what about my couple's friend's wife who has told her husband she does not care if he has an affair as long as he leaves her alone sexually. Is that cheating?

 

If so, what exactly is he cheating his wife out of.

 

Who is exactly cheating whom out of their normal marital expectations?

 

You can not assume that everyone shares your mindset.

 

In fact, with the rise of infidelity, I think fewer and fewer people share your mindset in the USA and around the world.

 

A few years after my affair, and after much counseling, my wife one day actually apologized to me for unilaterally deciding that sex was no longer important to a marriage.

 

She said she now realizes it was wrong.

 

That is why our reconciliation is working well. She was willing to take a hard look at her own actions.

 

Forget apples and oranges, this is all just fruit salad.

 

 

If you believed having an affair was the ethical response to your needs not being met by your wife, then you would have told her you were going to get those needs met by having an affair.

 

 

Its wrong when spouses don't meet each others needs that they should reasonably expect to be met in marriage. But, the remedy for that imo is not having an affair.

 

 

I don't really buy your story as told although I understand you believe it and its what your wife has told you.

 

 

I suspect there is more to her not wanting sex than lack of interest.....probably resentment over her own unmet needs. And, since you seem to think your A was the greatest thing since sliced bread, she likely wont feel safe telling you that anytime soon if ever.

 

 

Good luck.

[Lady2163]

If your spouse is a bad spouse... You work on it. If they are unwilling to do so... You ask them if it is ok for you to get what you need they are not supplying elsewhere.

 

You do not assume it is ok and go have an affair. You might be surprised how quickly they decide to fix it when confronted with the possibility that their spouse is going to have an affair.

 

What you cheat them out of is a say. I am fine with an open marriage... Because everything is on the up and up. Everything is disclosed. There are no secrets.

 

When you cheat as in screwing someone else... You did it without their knowledge... And without asking their opinion. A marriage involves two people...cheating silences one voice.

 

I'm genuinely not being snarky, but this goes back to my earlier comments about semantics - word usage.

 

When are we - as a couple - ever justified in treating our partners lousy?

When are we as human beings?

 

There are proportional responses to poor treatment. There are solutions to poor treatment. There are responses to stimuli.

[Liam1]

Forget apples and oranges, this is all just fruit salad.

 

Yes. I agree. It's just ALL fruit salad. Are not ALL opinions, just that?

 

 

If you believed having an affair was the ethical response to your needs not being met by your wife, then you would have told her you were going to get those needs met by having an affair.

See, how easy it is too make assumptions. Why do you assume I did not?

 

I did. That has already been mentioned. My wife just laughed.

 

 

Its wrong when spouses don't meet each others needs that they should reasonably expect to be met in marriage. But, the remedy for that imo is not having an affair.

Well, thank you for acknowledging that your opinion is just your opinion.

 

 

I don't really buy your story as told although I understand you believe it and its what your wife has told you.

Are you calling me a liar? I would not deign to tell you what is going on in your marriage. That would be very rude.

 

I suspect there is more to her not wanting sex than lack of interest.....probably resentment over her own unmet needs. And, since you seem to think your A was the greatest thing since sliced bread, she likely wont feel safe telling you that anytime soon if ever.

You suspect? Or, you KNOW for a fact? A guess and a fact are quite different.

 

A guess is meaningless in relation to other people's lives.

 

I suspect that Jupiter is filled with cheese. But that is not a credible conclusion because I have no way of knowing for a fact that Jupiter is filled with cheese or rocks.

 

Is it possible you are projecting your own marital suspicions onto my marriage?

 

Think about it.

 

In any case, to guess, to suspect, to say you don't buy someone's story is not a credible argument.

 

The facts are the only things that matter. And, first person testimony is the only valid testimony accepted by society today.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Liam1