Curious about this sentiment . . .[there is no excuse for cheating]

[velvette]

Often cheaters justify their actions by blaming their betrayed spouse. This shows that no remorse exists. Unfortunately, many BS just settle and live with this type of abuse. There is always an option that does not include infidelity. Many BS are told by the WS after the affair, you did not meet my needs, you did not give me sex, you did not whatever. Blame shifting is a ploy that many WS do to justify their actions. I know WS who have said I never lied....since the BS never asked and perhaps never suspected, but a lie by omission is still a lie. To some WS the affair may be a wake up call that shows them flaws in their basic character to other WS there is justification of their actions to protect their own ego.

 

 

This line of reasoning is simply mind boggling to me.........amusing, but still mind boggling.

[wmacbride]

I find it interesting how some people can, given time and distance after an affair can learn form it and use that new knowledge to find better coping strategies and how to better control the only person in their life that they really can. Themselves.

 

Other, not so much. All time and distance does is give them more space to try and blame anyone and everyone else for their choices.

[wmacbride]

This line of reasoning is simply mind boggling to me.........amusing, but still mind boggling.

 

Agreed.

It's especially odd when the person goes form saying how they feel bad because they hurt their spouse who was so trusting of them, and it was that very trust that allowed them to be hurt, to the implication that they were never suspicious which means they didn't care.

[velvette]

Yes. I agree. It's just ALL fruit salad. Are not ALL opinions, just that?

 

 

See, how easy it is too make assumptions. Why do you assume I did not?

 

I did. That has already been mentioned. My wife just laughed.

 

 

Well, thank you for acknowledging that your opinion is just your opinion.

 

 

Are you calling me a liar? I would not deign to tell you what is going on in your marriage. That would be very rude.

 

You suspect? Or, you KNOW for a fact? A guess and a fact are quite different.

 

A guess is meaningless in relation to other people's lives.

 

I suspect that Jupiter is filled with cheese. But that is not a credible conclusion because I have no way of knowing for a fact that Jupiter is filled with cheese or rocks.

 

Is it possible you are projecting your own marital suspicions onto my marriage?

 

Think about it.

 

In any case, to guess, to suspect, to say you don't buy someone's story is not a credible argument.

 

The facts are the only things that matter. And, first person testimony is the only valid testimony accepted by society today.

 

 

Your testimony about your wife is hearsay.

 

 

Your issues are not mine. However, you do remind me of my H when he was being verbally abusive. Do you have issues with that?

 

 

My language was very clear and I chose the words I meant to use. Feel free to twist it however you want.

 

 

I apologize for assuming you didn't tell your wife you were going to have an A. Don't recall reading that.

 

 

Don't think it matters though because you said you didn't lie as she didn't ask. That infers to me she didn't know you were having an A while it was going on. If that's correct, why keep it a secret if you feel you were doing the right thing?

 

 

If you don't want people to have an opinion or comment on something, don't post about it.

[jasmineb]

Often cheaters justify their actions by blaming their betrayed spouse. This shows that no remorse exists.

 

You have put the core of truth into a simple statement.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I'm genuinely not being snarky, but this goes back to my earlier comments about semantics - word usage.

 

When are we - as a couple - ever justified in treating our partners lousy?

When are we as human beings?

 

There are proportional responses to poor treatment. There are solutions to poor treatment. There are responses to stimuli.

 

If your spouse is not meeting your needs...you tell them. If they still don't meet your needs.... you ask them if it is ok to have your needs met by someone else.

 

Liam's needs were not being met by his wife... I understand that....but he did not ask her if it was ok for him to have those needs met by someone else. Instead....he made a conscience decision to have sex with others...without his wife's knowledge. This is cheating. It is not an acceptable choice. Liam's wife seems to be a very open minded intelligent woman. She may have given him full permission and her blessing to have his needs met elsewhere. My point is....he did not ask her what she thought.

 

If i had asked my husband if it was ok for me to have sex with another man...he would have said no.

 

Being a bad partner is not fair....denying your spouse their needs is not fair....

 

Adultery is not the right choice to FIX those issues.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Forget apples and oranges, this is all just fruit salad.

 

 

If you believed having an affair was the ethical response to your needs not being met by your wife, then you would have told her you were going to get those needs met by having an affair.

 

 

Its wrong when spouses don't meet each others needs that they should reasonably expect to be met in marriage. But, the remedy for that imo is not having an affair.

 

 

I don't really buy your story as told although I understand you believe it and its what your wife has told you.

 

 

I suspect there is more to her not wanting sex than lack of interest.....probably resentment over her own unmet needs. And, since you seem to think your A was the greatest thing since sliced bread, she likely wont feel safe telling you that anytime soon if ever.

 

 

Good luck.

 

I would like this a thousand times if I could

[Liam1]

Your testimony about your wife is hearsay.

 

It is hearsay as related to you. But I am posting my experience from my perspective, and what she said to me IS direct testimony, as it pertains to my personal reality.

 

However, you are saying that I am undoubtedly lying about my experience. Accusing someone of lying is rather rude, don't you think?

 

My affair without a doubt SAVED my marriage.

 

Whether you want to believe that or not is not relevant to the FACTS of my personal experience.

 

 

Your issues are not mine. However, you do remind me of my H when he was being verbally abusive. Do you have issues with that?

Well thank you for acknowledging that you are projecting your marital issues onto mine. No. I have no issue with it, do you? It seemed possible you were projecting and I simply wanted you to think about whether or not your were. You do however seem very angry at me when in reality you are perhaps angry at your own husband.

 

I am not verbally abusing you, I am simply posting about my personal experience and my personal opinions. That seems to make you angry.

 

 

I apologize for assuming you didn't tell your wife you were going to have an A. Don't recall reading that.

Well, thank you. Apology, accepted

 

 

If you don't want people to have an opinion or comment on something, don't post about it.

I have no objection to an opinion.

 

My objection was to the numerous assumptions and the guesses about my marriage that were incorrect. I simply wanted to clarify your misconceptions.

 

Do you object to my clarifying your misconceptions?

 

Personally, I think that a discreet affair, under certain circumstances is warranted in some marriages in some circumstances.

 

An affair is typically kept discreet as a way to prevent hurt feelings.

 

That's my opinion. Do you object to it?

[velvette]

It is hearsay as related to you. But I am posting my experience from my perspective, and what she said to me IS direct testimony, as it pertains to my personal reality.

 

However, you are saying that I am undoubtedly lying about my experience. Accusing someone of lying is rather rude, don't you think?

 

My affair without a doubt SAVED my marriage.

 

Whether you want to believe that or not is not relevant to the FACTS of my personal experience.

 

 

Well thank you for acknowledging that you are projecting your marital issues onto mine. No. I have no issue with it, do you? It seemed possible you were projecting and I simply wanted you to think about whether or not your were. You do however seem very angry at me when in reality you are perhaps angry at your own husband.

 

I am not verbally abusing you, I am simply posting about my personal experience and my personal opinions. That seems to make you angry.

 

 

Well, thank you. Apology, accepted

 

 

I have no objection to an opinion.

 

My objection was to the numerous assumptions and the guesses about my marriage that were incorrect. I simply wanted to clarify your misconceptions.

 

Do you object to my clarifying your misconceptions?

 

Personally, I think that a discreet affair, under certain circumstances is warranted in some marriages in some circumstances.

 

An affair is typically kept discreet as a way to prevent hurt feelings.

 

That's my opinion. Do you object to it?

 

 

I'm not angry with you or my husband. I'm not projecting anything on you. I experienced your post as bullying. Sometimes tone is lost online. If you say youre not, I will accept that pending further experience with you.

 

 

I never said you were lying. In fact, I specifically said, I know you believe the conclusions you have about your wife and your marriage.

 

 

I'm glad you have it all figured out and like I said before, good luck.

[wmacbride]

It is hearsay as related to you. But I am posting my experience from my perspective, and what she said to me IS direct testimony, as it pertains to my personal reality.

 

However, you are saying that I am undoubtedly lying about my experience. Accusing someone of lying is rather rude, don't you think?

 

My affair without a doubt SAVED my marriage.

 

Whether you want to believe that or not is not relevant to the FACTS of my personal experience.

 

 

Well thank you for acknowledging that you are projecting your marital issues onto mine. No. I have no issue with it, do you? It seemed possible you were projecting and I simply wanted you to think about whether or not your were. You do however seem very angry at me when in reality you are perhaps angry at your own husband.

 

I am not verbally abusing you, I am simply posting about my personal experience and my personal opinions. That seems to make you angry.

 

 

Well, thank you. Apology, accepted

 

 

I have no objection to an opinion.

 

My objection was to the numerous assumptions and the guesses about my marriage that were incorrect. I simply wanted to clarify your misconceptions.

 

Do you object to my clarifying your misconceptions?

 

Personally, I think that a discreet affair, under certain circumstances is warranted in some marriages in some circumstances.

 

An affair is typically kept discreet as a way to prevent hurt feelings.

 

That's my opinion. Do you object to it?

 

 

This makes the assumption that the A is the only, or at least, the best possible choice.

 

Many bs have themselves been in a position where they were feeling low, feeling neglected, feeling angry, hurt, abandoned - and this is before the affair.

 

They didn't cheat, because as much as some would like to frame it otherwise, there are always choices and options besides cheating. The ws made their choice.

 

Are you sire your wife is okay with you having had the a or is she simply telling you what you want to hear?

 

btw, . These BAN ( beyond affairs network?)support group meetings that you have been mentioning. have they been helpful to your wife and yourself?

 

If a's can, as you say, save a marriage, then why the need for years of support groups and counseling afterwards? ( if your A was not a recent one)

Edited April 1, 2016 by wmacbride

[Mrs. John Adams]

An affair is typically kept discreet as a way to prevent hurt feelings.

 

Why would there be hurt feelings if it was totally acceptable behavior?

 

There would be hurt feelings because no one asked how the betrayed spouse felt.

[jasmineb]

There are many things that are culturally acceptable in certain places. In some places it is acceptable for a 40 year old man to marry a 12 year old girl. In some places it is acceptable for a woman who might not be a virgin to be buried to her neck and stoned. In some places they still cut the hand of a man who steals.

 

So I do not see where "some cultures are fine with cheating" is any sort of admirable logic.

[velvette]

There are many things that are culturally acceptable in certain places. In some places it is acceptable for a 40 year old man to marry a 12 year old girl. In some places it is acceptable for a woman who might not be a virgin to be buried to her neck and stoned. In some places they still cut the hand of a man who steals.

 

So I do not see where "some cultures are fine with cheating" is any sort of admirable logic.

 

 

Exactly. But, even if you consider so called civilized countries like France or Italy.....the main reason adultery is accepted is that is that women still have a generally more subservient role in society. And the culture is still far more patriarchal than the US.

 

 

Despite having some very prominent women contributing to early feminism, French women did not even have the right to vote until sometime in the 1950's. Same with Italy. Add in the predominance of the Catholic religion which forbids or heavily stigmatizes divorce.

[velvette]

An affair is typically kept discreet as a way to prevent hurt feelings.

 

Why would there be hurt feelings if it was totally acceptable behavior?

 

There would be hurt feelings because no one asked how the betrayed spouse felt.

 

Affairs are usually kept secret to avoid negative consequences to the person having the affair.

 

 

But, if you are having an affair to improve your marriage or get your spouse to meet your needs, its illogical to keep it secret.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Affairs are usually kept secret to avoid negative consequences to the person having the affair.

 

 

But, if you are having an affair to improve your marriage or get your spouse to meet your needs, its illogical to keep it secret.

 

Exactly.... If you say I used my own money so it did not hurt my spouse... I did not lie because my spouse never asked me about it... My spouse would not screw me... So I gave in to the women pursueing me.. And allowed them to meet my needs...Secretly of course to avoid causing any hurt.....

 

And those actions saved my marriage...

 

I have no doubt they did

[velvette]

Exactly.... If you say I used my own money so it did not hurt my spouse... I did not lie because my spouse never asked me about it... My spouse would not screw me... So I gave in to the women pursueing me.. And allowed them to meet my needs...Secretly of course to avoid causing any hurt.....

 

And those actions saved my marriage...

 

I have no doubt they did

 

 

Would this be the same if I were a SAHM and one of my primary needs was financial security and I had a H who wasn't meeting that need?

 

 

So say I fell in love with a man who willingly agreed to be the breadwinner while I stayed home with the kids. Then he loses his job. Maybe he falls into a depression due to his identity being all wrapped up in said job. Maybe the economy is bad, jobs hard to find. Whatever.

 

 

I offer all the help I can think of and then he ends up slacking on the sofa with no job in sight.

 

 

Am I justified in having an affair with a wealthy sugar daddy who likes to gift me with money.

 

 

And at the end if my H discovers the affair, and gets off his duff and finds a job I can then say the affair saved my M?

 

Would anyone agree with that? I don't know anyone who would think much of that. Maybe I am missing something.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Would this be the same if I were a SAHM and one of my primary needs was financial security and I had a H who wasn't meeting that need?

 

 

So say I fell in love with a man who willingly agreed to be the breadwinner while I stayed home with the kids. Then he loses his job. Maybe he falls into a depression due to his identity being all wrapped up in said job. Maybe the economy is bad, jobs hard to find. Whatever.

 

 

I offer all the help I can think of and then he ends up slacking on the sofa with no job in sight.

 

 

Am I justified in having an affair with a wealthy sugar daddy who likes to gift me with money.

 

 

And at the end if my H discovers the affair, and gets off his duff and finds a job I can then say the affair saved my M?

 

Would anyone agree with that? I don't know anyone who would think much of that. Maybe I am missing something.

 

are you going to ask your spouse if he minds if you get a sugar daddy to meet your needs before you do it? or are you going to do it and then later tell him it was all his fault because he shirked his responsibility of providing you with money?

[velvette]

are you going to ask your spouse if he minds if you get a sugar daddy to meet your needs before you do it? or are you going to do it and then later tell him it was all his fault because he shirked his responsibility of providing you with money?

 

 

Well no. To be consistent with Liam's example, I am going to tell him if he doesn't get his act together, I am going to find a man who will give me grocery money and whatever else I need; if I have to sleep with him to get it so be it.

 

 

He will laugh at me or go back to watching tv because he's too wrapped up in his own pain to meet my needs.

 

 

And, yes when it comes to light that I did what I said I was going to do, I am going to tell him its his fault and that if he would have gotten a job and met my need for financial support I wouldn't have cheated on him.

[Mrs. John Adams]

But your husband cheated on you first by not meeting your needs...so your cheating is justified....and I am certain your husband will forgive you and thank you for saving your marriage....

[Mrs. John Adams]

in all seriousness...I am a wayward wife....I have done my share of blame shifting and rug sweeping and lying and denying and sneaking and excusing and validating. I have not been a perfect example of a remorseful wayward.

 

I can hear myself over and over again saying the wrong things and doing the wrong things...It took me way too long to understand true remorse and empathy.

 

I live in one of those glass houses so I try to be open minded and listen with sensitivity to what people are saying. I don't agree with everyone...and i certainly know everyone does not agree with me.

 

The only relationship I have to be concerned with is my own....and i am diligent to make my marriage the very best it can be.

 

I do fear for others when i hear them saying and doing the same things i used to say and do....I do worry about folks fresh out of DDay declaring their spouse is remorseful and they have reconciled. I have been at this too long...and i have seen so many "happy reconciled couples" throw in the towel when reality sets in that this is not a game we are playing .....and it all comes out in the wash eventually. It makes me very sad to hear betrayed spouses blamed for a waywards decision to cheat. I know eventually it will continue to eat away at the very core of the relationship. They may hide the hurt for a while....but eventually....it will raise its ugly head and bite someone in the arse.

 

I wish everyone in reconciliation success and many many happy years together...I don't want to see people fail.

 

But I don't handle arrogance and insensitivity well....and sometimes I do use the block button.

[velvette]

But your husband cheated on you first by not meeting your needs...so your cheating is justified....and I am certain your husband will forgive you and thank you for saving your marriage....

 

 

Really? Ya think? I have to say, I don't know any men like you are describing.

 

 

I don't think my H would forgive me. I think he would resent the hell out of me.

 

 

And, if he did stay with me and I maintained that it was his fault I cheated, I think he would resent me more and more with each passing day whether he told me or not.

[velvette]

Psychology teaches us that perception is reality. If someone believes they are trapped, then they are trapped - someone else "objectively" (i.e. From a different, but equally subjective, viewpoint) may consider them not to be trapped, but that does not change the view of the "trapped" person regarding their options.

 

Agency comprises both power and will. Power is the ("objective") ability to effect change in or on a situation; will is the ("subjective") orientation that motivates someone to do so, or constrains them from acting. If someone lacks the orientation, because they cannot conceive of options available to them, or are prevented by their (in)capacity or their values from acting on these, then they lack the agency to act. This is Psych 101.

 

Just because an individual viewing the situation from outside may imagine that they, in a similar situation, would not be trapped, it does not change the reality of the person in the situation.

 

 

Be that as it may, what you describe is a personal problem. Its not your spouse's fault even if they treat you badly, that you are unable to reject that treatment, stand up for yourself and either find a solution or leave. And, likely someone's propensity to feel helpless in the face of problems is a large contributing factor to whatever marital discord is happening.

[cocorico]

Its not your spouse's fault even if they treat you badly, that you are unable to reject that treatment, stand up for yourself and either find a solution or leave.

 

What??? Victim blaming, much? If a man, say, abuses a woman to within an inch of her life, gaslights her and convinces her she won't survive without if she leaves etc - it's her fault for not leaving? Because she has a "personal problem"??

 

Way to go on that!

[Rejected Rosebud]

cheating is bad , unethical no matter what are the circumstances ; however another form of cheating is when vows are not respected.

 

When a partner changes immediately after marriage and break the vows this is also cheating .

This thread is about sexual and / or emotional infidelity. No, of course there is no "excuse" for it, unless you call basic human weakness a valid excuse.

[cocorico]

If a spouse is abusive, neglectful or denying sex, they are sabotaging the relationship and the person they supposedly love.

 

If someone breaks vows in the M - the M is broken in all but name. Why should he other spouse be bound by vows to a M that no longer exists? If a spouse is abusive, neglectful, withholds sex - the M ceases to exist. Their "spouse" is then under no obligation to remain faithful (or any other vow). Especially if they have communicated this to the abusive / neglectful / withholding spouse.

 

Why sexual exclusiveness is held up as the vow-to-top-all-others is beyond me.