Curious about this sentiment . . .[there is no excuse for cheating]

[Arieswoman]

Lady 2163 - post #162

 

When a spouse denies the other spouse sex, they are cheating them out of something and I think it is too easy to ignore that.

 

And I agree.

 

I was married for 5 years to a man who was lazy both in and out of bed, who made excuses not to have sex, who was always "too tired", or who stayed up late to avoid sex. Sex was quick and unfulfilling (and I didn't realise how bad it was until I had divorced him and found a boyfriend about a year later.)

 

But, I did not cheat.

 

I was not dirty, fat, ugly or boring. I was a petite, smart professional woman with brains and style. I earned more than he did, I catered for his every whim. I could cook goumet food, I kept a spotless house, I encouraged and supported him both work and hobbies-wise.

 

After 5 years, when I was totally and utterly fed up with the whole shebang I told him that he needed to address his premature ejectulation problem and start being a proper husband to me.

 

His response was to cheat with a girl at work.

 

Now I know that his problem wasn't about avoiding sex, it was about avoiding intimacy - and I couldn't fix that.

 

When you marry, you take a vow of fidelity, deprivation is NOT an excuse for cheating.

[cocorico]

You are either honest or not. Cheater or not. You have integrity or you don't. No one is perfect, but people with integrity strive to do what they believe is the right thing and they don't base that on the bad behavior of others.

 

 

 

Not even remotely. People can be completely honest in all aspects of their lives - except one. Just because someone has been dishonest on one occasion in one area of their lives, it does not mean they are now A Dishonest Person, not to be trusted in any area of their lives, ever. Context matters.

[Rejected Rosebud]

If someone breaks vows in the M - the M is broken in all but name. Why should he other spouse be bound by vows to a M that no longer exists? If a spouse is abusive, neglectful, withholds sex - the M ceases to exist. Their "spouse" is then under no obligation to remain faithful (or any other vow). Especially if they have communicated this to the abusive / neglectful / withholding spouse.

 

Why sexual exclusiveness is held up as the vow-to-top-all-others is beyond me.

Who says it's the vow-to-top-all-others? Most of us are just saying that cheating's basically sleazy, and if a person's marriage is terrible they are still wrong to cheat. Like most moms taught us, two (or more) wrongs don't make a right! It's true!

 

If a couple promised to remain faithful, that's up to EACH of them to uphold. MY promises are not going to be denigrated by another person's behavior, at least that is my hope.

 

To follow your logic, if my finace punched me then I would be fully justified and righteous if I addressed it by punching him back - rather than leaving the sick marriage.

[velvette]

What??? Victim blaming, much? If a man, say, abuses a woman to within an inch of her life, gaslights her and convinces her she won't survive without if she leaves etc - it's her fault for not leaving? Because she has a "personal problem"??

 

Way to go on that!

 

 

If your spouse is beating the crap out of you and you stay for it, you definitely have a personal problem. If you are staying, you are volunteering for more of that and communicating to the abuser that you are ok with that treatment.

 

 

Like all adult problems, you must solve it yourself and if you reach the limits of your own resources to do so, time to reach out for professional help.

 

 

The last thing an abused woman should be doing is falling into the arms of another man until she figures out how she ended up marrying and staying with an abuser.

[wmacbride]

from what I have seen on here and in life in general, a significant number of people seek relationships outside of their marriage because they are passive aggressive, have issues rooted in their childhood or what they say in their own families, or are too lazy to actually try and make their marriage better.

 

 

 

I find it especially confusing when a marriage where there are no kids, they both have good careers and divorce would be quite simple. these people will say that their wife or husband was so terrible, did things that were so awful that they had no choice but to go outside the marriage to get whatever it is they are looking for. Otherwise, they would never have cheated, and it is their spouses fault.

 

When I hear this, I always wonder just how bad the marriage really was that they still chose to stay married when they could have easily walked away and found someone better suited to them.

 

Mind you, there are some people who didn't go looking for an affair, but for whatever reason, they still had one. Just my way of thinking, but while those A's are every bit as hurtful and wrong, I would see the ws a having a greater chance of not doing so again, so long as they recognize what they did and learn better ways of behaving.

[jasmineb]

I must preface this statement by stating that I DO believe there are bad marriages and there are marriages where the BS WAS neglectful and hurtful (though it does not excuse cheating). But I also believe that once a person has begun cheating they may magnify the marriage problems or remember the past through the eyes of their current affair rather than through reality.

[Arieswoman]

JasmineB,

 

I must preface this statement by stating that I DO believe there are bad marriages and there are marriages where the BS WAS neglectful and hurtful (though it does not excuse cheating). But I also believe that once a person has begun cheating they may magnify the marriage problems or remember the past through the eyes of their current affair rather than through reality.

 

^^^ This x 10000 !

 

My ex-husband told his AP all the usual crap, that I was "not giving him enough affection", that I had "let myself go", that "I wouldn't do housework" ( !!!! ) - I bet she had a real shock we he brought her to our house and everything was spotless ! And the silly cow believed it all.

I bet he never told her it was me who was paying the mortgage and most of the bills?

[Liam1]

If someone breaks vows in the M - the M is broken in all but name. Why should he other spouse be bound by vows to a M that no longer exists? If a spouse is abusive, neglectful, withholds sex - the M ceases to exist. Their "spouse" is then under no obligation to remain faithful (or any other vow). Especially if they have communicated this to the abusive / neglectful / withholding spouse.

 

Why sexual exclusiveness is held up as the vow-to-top-all-others is beyond me.

 

Yes, and thank you for posting this. IMO, Withholding sex is a breaking of the marriage vow, too.

 

I wonder why we don't see people screaming that the deprived spouse should simply divorce the spouse who is withholding sex.

 

We always see people screaming about divorcing an unfaithful spouse.

 

Either one: Infidelity or withholding sex can blow up a marriage.

 

But we often see people make all sorts of excuses for a sexually withholding spouse including blameshifting to the spouse who wants sex.

 

Also, my counselor informed my wife that she was being verbally abusive when she chided me for being a pervert because I wanted a normal sex life.

 

I am curious about why don't we see people screaming that it is dishonorable to stay in a marriage when you don't want to have sex with your spouse. That it is sleazy, underhanded and disrespectful. If you don't want sex from your spouse, stop using them as a meal ticket or roommate and set them free and divorce them.

 

IMO, Withholding sex is just as much a form of cheating the deprived spouse out of something that is normal to expect in a marriage as is anything that is done by an unfaithful spouse, IMO.

 

Infidelity is grounds for a divorce and so is sexual abandonment. In a divorce court, refusing to have sex with a spouse for one year is considered abandonment and a legal ground, in fault states for a divorce. In those states, sexual abandonment can reduce alimony payments.

[Lady2163]

I'm wracking my brain for the psychology term, but this is all circular thinking.

 

Again - semantics.

 

If I tell you how miserable my exH was and provide factual, truthful examples galore, someone will still say, "That's no EXCUSE for cheating."

 

You're right. I'm not making an excuse, I'm giving valid, real life REASONS why the marriage crumbled and why I was looking for an exit affair.

 

No matter how many different ways people on here have tried to explain their reasoning and why, it seems different people always come back with, " Yes, but...." Personally, a lot of the "yes, but" statements invalidate the argument/discussion.

 

Again, some WS are just dogs, tools, players whatever you want to call them. They are leading on the Other, they are gaslightimg the spouse.

 

Some people marry unwisely. OR Some people change - most people are not the same at 45 as they were at 25. If you're compatible, you learn and grow and still manage to be a solid husband and wife duo. Grow together or grow apart.

 

And some people blatantly take their spouse for granted. How long should a spouse wait for their partner to be in the mood or deliver satisfactory sex? How many times do they have to get shot down in the bedroom, refused therapy, etc?

[len51]

I was cheated on by my first two loves and married the third. By then I had given up on monogamy as a good long term marriage strategy. Genetically, two major strategies have worked to pass along your genes. The first is monogamy which is having few kids but staying together to protect them until they can pass along your genes and those of all of your ancestors, with theirs.

 

The second successful strategy is quantity. Men can theoretically impregnate several women each day so this strategy was quantity. This is what fish and other animals do. Have enough kids and the law of averages will mean some live to pass along their genes.

 

There are only 3% of mammals who form pair bonds for life. We are a rarity among our own genus. With a 50% divorce rate which would probably be higher if more spouses were caught cheating or did not stay married for the sake of the kids or similar reasons, monogamy is not working so well. Basically when you marry you are flipping a coin.

 

Studies have shown that up to 70% of married spouses cheat. My personal experience with friends, co-workers and family agrees with those numbers. Cheating has been with us since the first caveman saw the second cave woman. We all know it exists and that there is a good chance of it happening but we all think it happens to other people and will never happen to us. That is the chemicals of love in your brain making you feel that way. So we all get married and with a wink and a nod, acknowledge cheating but try not to think about it.

 

Monogamy does work for many couples. My current friends are all monogamous for longer than my 40+ years of marriage. At least I think they are. As I found out, cheating does not always end in divorce. My former friends all had one or both spouses cheating and ending in divorce, even if forgiving the cheating spouse once, twice or more. The problem is that one's past behavior is a very good indicator of their future behavior. Once a cheater, always a cheater is not an idle expression.

 

With the background info out of the way, this is what my wife and I did. Instead of a strict monogamous marriage, we had a monogamish marriage. We recognized that we are only human and subject to our emotions which usually control our behavior even when we do not want them to. Try to think yourself in love with a person or think yourself out of it. Try to make yourself be attracted to someone or not attracted to them. You can't. We are all meat bags controlled by the chemicals in our brains that we call emotions.

 

Our goal in marriage was to strive for monogamy but having a very occasional fling with someone was not a deal breaker. We also agreed to a don't ask, don't tell policy because that only makes your imagination run wild and evokes emotions that you do not want to evoke. I was away on business for 3-4 months a year and that left me and my wife with a lot of away time to deal with. My wife knew of my high sex drive so she did not expect me to be celibate. She did expect me to use discretion and put her and our marriage first.

 

We are married over 40 years and you would think that we had lots of lovers but we have not. Six years ago we became monogamous because of our advanced age and medical issues. So we now talk about our past sexual partners. My wife only had sex with one man which turned her off guys and one girl but that girl was her girlfriend for most of our marriage up to 5 years ago. In fact, she lived with us and shared me with my wife but moved out when she got married. After that, she split her time between us and her husband who knew about this before their marriage and was OK with it. They had some sort of arrangement but we were never told what it was. They had their own monogamish marriage going.

 

I had sex with only 6 women over a 40+ year period and 3 of them were in the same year when my wife and I were apart for almost 6 months due to a project I was working on. My wife knew I was going to have sex but she never asked and I never told. After that there were 3 girls over a 40 year period, less than some of my cheating friends had in a year. We did not want an open marriage and neither did we want to do what society demands. As you pointed out, society and religion dictate that that we are only morally right and are not betraying our spouse if we first destroy the life we have created together. We first must file for divorce, fight over property, argue about alimony, child support if you have kid, selling your home and then ending up hating each other, before we can morally and legally have a night of sex with some attractive model who picked you to entertain her for her only night in town.

 

For most of the world, serial monogamy is preferred. Marriage is a man made invention to establish control in society. I really understand that. Imagine the chaos of having to deal with who gets medical and retirement benefits if an employee have multiple spouses. How about child support. If the woman you are currently living with has children from 3 other men who do not support their children because they have nothing left after supporting their other 10 children, do you just support the one child you had with the woman you are living with and let the others die? You can see the problems without marriage and monogamy. Society is not structured to deal with polygamy on a large scale. That is not to say that polygamy cannot work, just means that it would take a very long time for society and people to change to deal with it and to genetically weaken monogamy.

 

Cheating can only occur if there is a rule that is broken. If there is no rule, there is no cheating or betrayal. That is what my wife and I understood. Sex with others was OK as long as it was the exception and not the rule. When we married neither of us knew that my wife is bisexual and has a need for both a woman and man in her life. We both agree that if we were strictly monogamous, we would have divorced many years ago and never had a chance to have such a wonderful marriage and life as we have. We both had the love of a good woman in addition to each other. We were a completed puzzle with the three of us. Our girlfriend was able to fulfill the needs that no two of us could fulfill for each other. She fit in perfectly and I doubt that we could even replicate this perfect storm of a poly triad that we had.

 

Back to the cheating problem you mentioned. Believe it or not, I would leave my wife if she cheated. That is, if she swore to be monogamous and then was not when I was, it would be a betrayal and broken trust. It would mean she lied and deceived me. The sex part would not bother me since we have both seen each other have sex with others and neither of us gets jealous. It would be all the other stuff that goes into it. How can you trust and believe someone who proved they were capable and willing to break your trust and lie to you.

 

Everyone is sorry and regrets cheating. I learned that first hand. They do not want to lose their good thing of a spouse at home and some sex with others on the side. Having sex with others does not even mean that your spouse does not love you. It only means that you cannot trust them anymore. Even if you forgive them you will be suspicious of everything they do out of the ordinary. Your stomach would knot up and sooner of later, the fact that he or she cheated would come out during an argument. It always does.

 

BTW, the two women who cheated on me, the first being my girlfriend and then fiancee since I was 14, went on to cheat on with other men and then their husbands. The first one left her husband after 20 years of cheating on him with her lover and is now married to her lover since you can now marry your own gender. The other one cheated on a few husbands, got hooked on crack and stripper who ended up marrying another guy but this one was a customer and 22 years older than her. Imagine my life had I not cut them loose. I forgot, the first one is bipolar and changed her last name legally because an angel in Central Park told her to.

 

Sorry for the long post but it is too easy to just say leave him or give him a second chance. These days people want their problems solved in three sentences of less all without knowing the background if the person giving the advice. So for me, if you both swore to monogamy, it is cheating and a broken trust that will take a very long time to heal. If you allow for the rare and occasional giving in to emotions which lead us to make bad choices, it is not cheating. No rules were broken.

 

One day a friend of mine who knew of our alternate lifestyle, asked me how did I know that my wife was not having sex with other men or women every day of the week and why that does not bother me to know that she could be. My reply is that whether she was or not, my life right now is great so even if she was taking on 5 men a day, my wife is still the same as it is now and there has not been even a ripple in our marriage and for us the goal was not to preserve monogamy but rather to preserve our love and marriage. To that end we succeeded very well. We are very happy and prosperous and still love each other as we always have. Take from this what you will. If you still love each other, perhaps there is more than two choices to make. Think about structuring your marriage differently than just the way you were taught to. We knew many married couples who lived as we did and had happy marriages. We also know some that did not. Either way it seems to be a crap shoot so pick your poison.

Edited April 2, 2016 by len51

[Rejected Rosebud]

Yes, and thank you for posting this. IMO, Withholding sex is a breaking of the marriage vow, too.

 

I wonder why we don't see people screaming that the deprived spouse should simply divorce the spouse who is withholding sex.

 

I always say they should divorce the partner who's depriving them of sex. I've read others say it a lot on here, too. Of course they should divorce if they are very unhappy and unfulfilled, and they can't fix their marriage. They shouldn't cheat though.

 

I believe that people who are married do owe each other a fulfilling sex life, but I don't think that "withholding sex is breaking a marriage vow." You know that in MANY cases, the sex life is messed up because of other destructive aspects in a marriage. If your partner is cruel and dishonest with you, are you breaking a marriage vow when you can't bear to have sex with them??

[velvette]

The idea that I need to sit around waiting for my spouse to file for a D if I am miserable, not having my needs met, and feel I am out of options to change things in my M or that I need to find another man to provide me an exit is unfathomable to me.

 

 

I cannot think of a less healthy way to exit a marriage short of murder. Not to mention a very unhealthy way to start a new relationship.

 

 

From my viewpoint, if you cannot end a M that is not working for you and you feel there is no hope it will work again, you have far greater problems than not getting sex.

 

 

Obviously, how long you wait to decide that and how much effort as well as the quality of that effort will be different for different people.

[wmacbride]

Yes, and thank you for posting this. IMO, Withholding sex is a breaking of the marriage vow, too.

 

I wonder why we don't see people screaming that the deprived spouse should simply divorce the spouse who is withholding sex.

 

We always see people screaming about divorcing an unfaithful spouse.

 

Either one: Infidelity or withholding sex can blow up a marriage.

 

But we often see people make all sorts of excuses for a sexually withholding spouse including blameshifting to the spouse who wants sex.

 

Also, my counselor informed my wife that she was being verbally abusive when she chided me for being a pervert because I wanted a normal sex life.

 

I am curious about why don't we see people screaming that it is dishonorable to stay in a marriage when you don't want to have sex with your spouse. That it is sleazy, underhanded and disrespectful. If you don't want sex from your spouse, stop using them as a meal ticket or roommate and set them free and divorce them.

 

IMO, Withholding sex is just as much a form of cheating the deprived spouse out of something that is normal to expect in a marriage as is anything that is done by an unfaithful spouse, IMO.

 

Infidelity is grounds for a divorce and so is sexual abandonment. In a divorce court, refusing to have sex with a spouse for one year is considered abandonment and a legal ground, in fault states for a divorce. In those states, sexual abandonment can reduce alimony payments.

 

You're seeing what you want to see.Tying yourself in knots to rationalize bad behavior.

 

Many people DO tell those who complain about lack of sex or not being attracted to their spouse to get a divorce or to tell their spouse they are planning or seeking sex outside the marriage.

[wmacbride]

I was cheated on by my first two loves and married the third. By then I had given up on monogamy as a good long term marriage strategy. Genetically, two major strategies have worked to pass along your genes. The first is monogamy which is having few kids but staying together to protect them until they can pass along your genes and those of all of your ancestors, with theirs.

 

The second successful strategy is quantity. Men can theoretically impregnate several women each day so this strategy was quantity. This is what fish and other animals do. Have enough kids and the law of averages will mean some live to pass along their genes.

 

There are only 3% of mammals who form pair bonds for life. We are a rarity among our own genus. With a 50% divorce rate which would probably be higher if more spouses were caught cheating or did not stay married for the sake of the kids or similar reasons, monogamy is not working so well. Basically when you marry you are flipping a coin.

 

Studies have shown that up to 70% of married spouses cheat. My personal experience with friends, co-workers and family agrees with those numbers. Cheating has been with us since the first caveman saw the second cave woman. We all know it exists and that there is a good chance of it happening but we all think it happens to other people and will never happen to us. That is the chemicals of love in your brain making you feel that way. So we all get married and with a wink and a nod, acknowledge cheating but try not to think about it.

 

Monogamy does work for many couples. My current friends are all monogamous for longer than my 40+ years of marriage. At least I think they are. As I found out, cheating does not always end in divorce. My former friends all had one or both spouses cheating and ending in divorce, even if forgiving the cheating spouse once, twice or more. The problem is that one's past behavior is a very good indicator of their future behavior. Once a cheater, always a cheater is not an idle expression.

 

With the background info out of the way, this is what my wife and I did. Instead of a strict monogamous marriage, we had a monogamish marriage. We recognized that we are only human and subject to our emotions which usually control our behavior even when we do not want them to. Try to think yourself in love with a person or think yourself out of it. Try to make yourself be attracted to someone or not attracted to them. You can't. We are all meat bags controlled by the chemicals in our brains that we call emotions.

 

Our goal in marriage was to strive for monogamy but having a very occasional fling with someone was not a deal breaker. We also agreed to a don't ask, don't tell policy because that only makes your imagination run wild and evokes emotions that you do not want to evoke. I was away on business for 3-4 months a year and that left me and my wife with a lot of away time to deal with. My wife knew of my high sex drive so she did not expect me to be celibate. She did expect me to use discretion and put her and our marriage first.

 

We are married over 40 years and you would think that we had lots of lovers but we have not. Six years ago we became monogamous because of our advanced age and medical issues. So we now talk about our past sexual partners. My wife only had sex with one man which turned her off guys and one girl but that girl was her girlfriend for most of our marriage up to 5 years ago. In fact, she lived with us and shared me with my wife but moved out when she got married. After that, she split her time between us and her husband who knew about this before their marriage and was OK with it. They had some sort of arrangement but we were never told what it was. They had their own monogamish marriage going.

 

I had sex with only 6 women over a 40+ year period and 3 of them were in the same year when my wife and I were apart for almost 6 months due to a project I was working on. My wife knew I was going to have sex but she never asked and I never told. After that there were 3 girls over a 40 year period, less than some of my cheating friends had in a year. We did not want an open marriage and neither did we want to do what society demands. As you pointed out, society and religion dictate that that we are only morally right and are not betraying our spouse if we first destroy the life we have created together. We first must file for divorce, fight over property, argue about alimony, child support if you have kid, selling your home and then ending up hating each other, before we can morally and legally have a night of sex with some attractive model who picked you to entertain her for her only night in town.

 

For most of the world, serial monogamy is preferred. Marriage is a man made invention to establish control in society. I really understand that. Imagine the chaos of having to deal with who gets medical and retirement benefits if an employee have multiple spouses. How about child support. If the woman you are currently living with has children from 3 other men who do not support their children because they have nothing left after supporting their other 10 children, do you just support the one child you had with the woman you are living with and let the others die? You can see the problems without marriage and monogamy. Society is not structured to deal with polygamy on a large scale. That is not to say that polygamy cannot work, just means that it would take a very long time for society and people to change to deal with it and to genetically weaken monogamy.

 

Cheating can only occur if there is a rule that is broken. If there is no rule, there is no cheating or betrayal. That is what my wife and I understood. Sex with others was OK as long as it was the exception and not the rule. When we married neither of us knew that my wife is bisexual and has a need for both a woman and man in her life. We both agree that if we were strictly monogamous, we would have divorced many years ago and never had a chance to have such a wonderful marriage and life as we have. We both had the love of a good woman in addition to each other. We were a completed puzzle with the three of us. Our girlfriend was able to fulfill the needs that no two of us could fulfill for each other. She fit in perfectly and I doubt that we could even replicate this perfect storm of a poly triad that we had.

 

Back to the cheating problem you mentioned. Believe it or not, I would leave my wife if she cheated. That is, if she swore to be monogamous and then was not when I was, it would be a betrayal and broken trust. It would mean she lied and deceived me. The sex part would not bother me since we have both seen each other have sex with others and neither of us gets jealous. It would be all the other stuff that goes into it. How can you trust and believe someone who proved they were capable and willing to break your trust and lie to you.

 

Everyone is sorry and regrets cheating. I learned that first hand. They do not want to lose their good thing of a spouse at home and some sex with others on the side. Having sex with others does not even mean that your spouse does not love you. It only means that you cannot trust them anymore. Even if you forgive them you will be suspicious of everything they do out of the ordinary. Your stomach would knot up and sooner of later, the fact that he or she cheated would come out during an argument. It always does.

 

BTW, the two women who cheated on me, the first being my girlfriend and then fiancee since I was 14, went on to cheat on with other men and then their husbands. The first one left her husband after 20 years of cheating on him with her lover and is now married to her lover since you can now marry your own gender. The other one cheated on a few husbands, got hooked on crack and stripper who ended up marrying another guy but this one was a customer and 22 years older than her. Imagine my life had I not cut them loose. I forgot, the first one is bipolar and changed her last name legally because an angel in Central Park told her to.

 

Sorry for the long post but it is too easy to just say leave him or give him a second chance. These days people want their problems solved in three sentences of less all without knowing the background if the person giving the advice. So for me, if you both swore to monogamy, it is cheating and a broken trust that will take a very long time to heal. If you allow for the rare and occasional giving in to emotions which lead us to make bad choices, it is not cheating. No rules were broken.

 

One day a friend of mine who knew of our alternate lifestyle, asked me how did I know that my wife was not having sex with other men or women every day of the week and why that does not bother me to know that she could be. My reply is that whether she was or not, my life right now is great so even if she was taking on 5 men a day, my wife is still the same as it is now and there has not been even a ripple in our marriage and for us the goal was not to preserve monogamy but rather to preserve our love and marriage. To that end we succeeded very well. We are very happy and prosperous and still love each other as we always have. Take from this what you will. If you still love each other, perhaps there is more than two choices to make. Think about structuring your marriage differently than just the way you were taught to. We knew many married couples who lived as we did and had happy marriages. We also know some that did not. Either way it seems to be a crap shoot so pick your poison.

 

 

\this is what worked for you, an so long as the two of you are happy, that's wonderful. You have found something that works for you two.

[wmacbride]

I always say they should divorce the partner who's depriving them of sex. I've read others say it a lot on here, too. Of course they should divorce if they are very unhappy and unfulfilled, and they can't fix their marriage. They shouldn't cheat though.

 

I believe that people who are married do owe each other a fulfilling sex life, but I don't think that "withholding sex is breaking a marriage vow." You know that in MANY cases, the sex life is messed up because of other destructive aspects in a marriage. If your partner is cruel and dishonest with you, are you breaking a marriage vow when you can't bear to have sex with them??

 

 

shhhh....that is the thing we are not supposed to say.

Edited April 2, 2016 by wmacbride

[Liam1]

Hi geezer:

 

I have not read all the posts but I was attracted to your screen name and wanted to see what wisdom you had to share.

 

Because of your screen name, I am assuming you are in your late 70s to 90s, but please correct me if I am wrong.

 

But, it appears that you have had a very colorful sex life, given the don't ask don't tell affairs, and Menage a trois you described.

 

Still, given your age, you most likely experienced a lot of people who have condemned your lifestyle. Even in the 21st century there are many who would condemn your lifestyle, so you are brave to post the details here.

 

Those condemning your lifestyle might use the same language they use to condemn infidelity that language often being that it is sleazy or immature, or selfish or is setting a poor example for their kids, or will eventually cause a divorce.

 

But that is their opinion and everyone has their line in the sand, regarding what may or may not be a deal breaker in a marriage and that line is different for each individual.

 

Cheating can only occur if there is a rule that is broken. If there is no rule, there is no cheating or betrayal.

Yes, I agree, a marriage has rules. One rule, among many others, is that a spouse has a right to expect a normal sex life, given the spouse who is not interested in a normal sex life, is not ill.

 

These rules are part of the implied contract of marriage. Breaking any of the rules is a betrayal.

 

If the rule that sexually intimacy is part of the marital contract is broken, and the spouse does not want a divorce and refuses counseling to address it then, IMO, an affair is a logical solution to the dilemma.

 

Anyone who is refusing intimacy with their spouse without a health reason is likely in a marriage that will be eventually vulnerable to infidelity.

 

What I see in society today is that there appear to be a lot of spouses who want to break the implied marital rules, but expect their spouse to just suck it up and abide by their mandate.

 

Not respecting the marital rules is very disrespectful. Once a marital rule is broken, than the other spouse need not abide by any rules, either, IMO.

 

Whether the rules are implied or specifically stated, should not matter. An implied rule is just as much a rule as is a spoken rule.

 

When the implied marital rules are broken then the marital contract has been broken.

 

Studies have shown that up to 70% of married spouses cheat.

Some marriage counselors estimate that estimate is more like 80 percent given the number of clients they have who are cheating but have not yet been caught or revealed the infidelity to a spouse.

 

I personally know at least 5 business contacts through the years who CLAIM to be, and boast about, having affairs for their entire marriage and their spouse is none the wiser. These people are both men and women.

 

They are very discreet and their attitude is if no one asks, don't tell. IMO, that is not very different from your policy of don't ask don't tell.

 

But one needs to acknowledge that those five people are only the people who are willing to brag.

 

There are likely many more who are very discreet about having an affair, and are not the type to boast, and there are a certain proportion of people who would never admit to an affair even to their counselor.

 

Therefore affair statistics are mainly based on empirical evidence.

 

Back to the cheating problem you mentioned. Believe it or not, I would leave my wife if she cheated. That is, if she swore to be monogamous and then was not when I was, it would be a betrayal and broken trust. It would mean she lied and deceived me.

If you talk to psychologists and socialists they will tell you that EVERYBODY lies.

 

So the question arises then if lying is a deal breaker than where is your line in the sand?

 

Some people lie to protect another person, other people lie to hurt other people, other people lie to protect themselves, etc etc. but you get the picture.

 

So, where do you draw your line in the sand about lying?

 

What if your wife gave her brother $10,000 for a down payment on a condo, but lied about what she used the money for?

 

What if your wife constantly told you she loved you but than your found out she was telling other people, she only married you for your money?

 

What if you found out your wife had been faking orgasms forever, but told you all the time that you were a great lover.

 

Those are lies and they are being used to deceive you and those lies also destroy trust. Or, at least they should.

 

To some people those lies might be a deal breaker, but to others they are not.

 

Everyone has their line in the sand.

 

The fact is: Many marriages survive and thrive and improve after an affair is discovered or confessed.

 

Many don't but many marriage end in divorce anyway for practically no reason other than the spouse wanting the divorce is bored.

 

The fact is: the top reason for divorce is NOT INFIDELITY. The top reason is financial incompatibility.....a situation where one person is a saver and the other person a wild spender.

 

Also, unless you have been faced with a decision about divorcing your spouse over an infidelity, you are only conjecturing about what you would actually do. You do not know for sure how you would react.

 

ALL people react with the statement that they will divorce their spouse if there is an infidelity.

 

But the reality is that the majority do NOT actually divorce, after an affair. Many choose to stay and work on the marriage.

 

In some cultures discreet affairs are accepted and sometimes expected.

 

In the near past mistresses were considered inevitable and women often took lovers. Back then it was socially trendy to do so.

 

Times change social mores change.

 

I am glad that you found a solution to what you refer to as the unrealistic expectation of monogamy in ALL marriages. I am sure that is why you are married for so long.

 

I found a solution that worked for me and that is why my marriage is a good marriage, now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was cheated on by my first two loves and married the third. By then I had given up on monogamy as a good long term marriage strategy. Genetically, two major strategies have worked to pass along your genes. The first is monogamy which is having few kids but staying together to protect them until they can pass along your genes and those of all of your ancestors, with theirs.

 

The second successful strategy is quantity. Men can theoretically impregnate several women each day so this strategy was quantity. This is what fish and other animals do. Have enough kids and the law of averages will mean some live to pass along their genes.

 

There are only 3% of mammals who form pair bonds for life. We are a rarity among our own genus. With a 50% divorce rate which would probably be higher if more spouses were caught cheating or did not stay married for the sake of the kids or similar reasons, monogamy is not working so well. Basically when you marry you are flipping a coin.

 

Studies have shown that up to 70% of married spouses cheat. My personal experience with friends, co-workers and family agrees with those numbers. Cheating has been with us since the first caveman saw the second cave woman. We all know it exists and that there is a good chance of it happening but we all think it happens to other people and will never happen to us. That is the chemicals of love in your brain making you feel that way. So we all get married and with a wink and a nod, acknowledge cheating but try not to think about it.

 

Monogamy does work for many couples. My current friends are all monogamous for longer than my 40+ years of marriage. At least I think they are. As I found out, cheating does not always end in divorce. My former friends all had one or both spouses cheating and ending in divorce, even if forgiving the cheating spouse once, twice or more. The problem is that one's past behavior is a very good indicator of their future behavior. Once a cheater, always a cheater is not an idle expression.

 

With the background info out of the way, this is what my wife and I did. Instead of a strict monogamous marriage, we had a monogamish marriage. We recognized that we are only human and subject to our emotions which usually control our behavior even when we do not want them to. Try to think yourself in love with a person or think yourself out of it. Try to make yourself be attracted to someone or not attracted to them. You can't. We are all meat bags controlled by the chemicals in our brains that we call emotions.

 

Our goal in marriage was to strive for monogamy but having a very occasional fling with someone was not a deal breaker. We also agreed to a don't ask, don't tell policy because that only makes your imagination run wild and evokes emotions that you do not want to evoke. I was away on business for 3-4 months a year and that left me and my wife with a lot of away time to deal with. My wife knew of my high sex drive so she did not expect me to be celibate. She did expect me to use discretion and put her and our marriage first.

 

We are married over 40 years and you would think that we had lots of lovers but we have not. Six years ago we became monogamous because of our advanced age and medical issues. So we now talk about our past sexual partners. My wife only had sex with one man which turned her off guys and one girl but that girl was her girlfriend for most of our marriage up to 5 years ago. In fact, she lived with us and shared me with my wife but moved out when she got married. After that, she split her time between us and her husband who knew about this before their marriage and was OK with it. They had some sort of arrangement but we were never told what it was. They had their own monogamish marriage going.

 

I had sex with only 6 women over a 40+ year period and 3 of them were in the same year when my wife and I were apart for almost 6 months due to a project I was working on. My wife knew I was going to have sex but she never asked and I never told. After that there were 3 girls over a 40 year period, less than some of my cheating friends had in a year. We did not want an open marriage and neither did we want to do what society demands. As you pointed out, society and religion dictate that that we are only morally right and are not betraying our spouse if we first destroy the life we have created together. We first must file for divorce, fight over property, argue about alimony, child support if you have kid, selling your home and then ending up hating each other, before we can morally and legally have a night of sex with some attractive model who picked you to entertain her for her only night in town.

 

For most of the world, serial monogamy is preferred. Marriage is a man made invention to establish control in society. I really understand that. Imagine the chaos of having to deal with who gets medical and retirement benefits if an employee have multiple spouses. How about child support. If the woman you are currently living with has children from 3 other men who do not support their children because they have nothing left after supporting their other 10 children, do you just support the one child you had with the woman you are living with and let the others die? You can see the problems without marriage and monogamy. Society is not structured to deal with polygamy on a large scale. That is not to say that polygamy cannot work, just means that it would take a very long time for society and people to change to deal with it and to genetically weaken monogamy.

 

Cheating can only occur if there is a rule that is broken. If there is no rule, there is no cheating or betrayal. That is what my wife and I understood. Sex with others was OK as long as it was the exception and not the rule. When we married neither of us knew that my wife is bisexual and has a need for both a woman and man in her life. We both agree that if we were strictly monogamous, we would have divorced many years ago and never had a chance to have such a wonderful marriage and life as we have. We both had the love of a good woman in addition to each other. We were a completed puzzle with the three of us. Our girlfriend was able to fulfill the needs that no two of us could fulfill for each other. She fit in perfectly and I doubt that we could even replicate this perfect storm of a poly triad that we had.

 

Back to the cheating problem you mentioned. Believe it or not, I would leave my wife if she cheated. That is, if she swore to be monogamous and then was not when I was, it would be a betrayal and broken trust. It would mean she lied and deceived me. The sex part would not bother me since we have both seen each other have sex with others and neither of us gets jealous. It would be all the other stuff that goes into it. How can you trust and believe someone who proved they were capable and willing to break your trust and lie to you.

 

Everyone is sorry and regrets cheating. I learned that first hand. They do not want to lose their good thing of a spouse at home and some sex with others on the side. Having sex with others does not even mean that your spouse does not love you. It only means that you cannot trust them anymore. Even if you forgive them you will be suspicious of everything they do out of the ordinary. Your stomach would knot up and sooner of later, the fact that he or she cheated would come out during an argument. It always does.

 

BTW, the two women who cheated on me, the first being my girlfriend and then fiancee since I was 14, went on to cheat on with other men and then their husbands. The first one left her husband after 20 years of cheating on him with her lover and is now married to her lover since you can now marry your own gender. The other one cheated on a few husbands, got hooked on crack and stripper who ended up marrying another guy but this one was a customer and 22 years older than her. Imagine my life had I not cut them loose. I forgot, the first one is bipolar and changed her last name legally because an angel in Central Park told her to.

 

Sorry for the long post but it is too easy to just say leave him or give him a second chance. These days people want their problems solved in three sentences of less all without knowing the background if the person giving the advice. So for me, if you both swore to monogamy, it is cheating and a broken trust that will take a very long time to heal. If you allow for the rare and occasional giving in to emotions which lead us to make bad choices, it is not cheating. No rules were broken.

 

One day a friend of mine who knew of our alternate lifestyle, asked me how did I know that my wife was not having sex with other men or women every day of the week and why that does not bother me to know that she could be. My reply is that whether she was or not, my life right now is great so even if she was taking on 5 men a day, my wife is still the same as it is now and there has not been even a ripple in our marriage and for us the goal was not to preserve monogamy but rather to preserve our love and marriage. To that end we succeeded very well. We are very happy and prosperous and still love each other as we always have. Take from this what you will. If you still love each other, perhaps there is more than two choices to make. Think about structuring your marriage differently than just the way you were taught to. We knew many married couples who lived as we did and had happy marriages. We also know some that did not. Either way it seems to be a crap shoot so pick your poison.

[Zenstudent]

A lot of strawman arguments here. No one has called open relationships sleazy and immature.

 

It's the lying, betraying and back stabbing that got that label.

 

But I actually agree with Liam that there are different ways to break a marriage wow/promise, ie. withholding sex for no reason.

 

The difference is, that the sex problem can be dealt with because both spouses are aware of the situation - that's not the case with infidelity and betrayal.

[cocorico]

 

The difference is, that the sex problem can be dealt with because both spouses are aware of the situation - that's not the case with infidelity and betrayal.

 

I disagree. Many, if not most, withholding partners do not recognise it as a problem, because *they* don't have the problem. They have the situation they desire - i.e. no / little sex; it's the deprived partner who sees the problem. The withholding partner will often find an excuse for each individual occasion - but refuse to see the bigger picture. And it might be true that yes, today they did have a headache, and so weren't in the mood.... But "forget" that yesterday they were "too tired", and the day before his fingernails were dirty and that grossed her out, and they day before that she felt fat.... Etc.

[Zenstudent]

I disagree. Many, if not most, withholding partners do not recognise it as a problem, because *they* don't have the problem. They have the situation they desire - i.e. no / little sex; it's the deprived partner who sees the problem. The withholding partner will often find an excuse for each individual occasion - but refuse to see the bigger picture. And it might be true that yes, today they did have a headache, and so weren't in the mood.... But "forget" that yesterday they were "too tired", and the day before his fingernails were dirty and that grossed her out, and they day before that she felt fat.... Etc.

I must have been unclear since the logic got twisted, so let me rephrase. Lack of sex can be raised as a problem by the one who perceives it as a problem. It can be talked about and dealt

with. If no solution is found, you have the opportunity to leave.

 

This isn't the case when one spouse cheats. The offended partner can't voice it, can't deal with it and can't leave because of it - because they don't have the facts.

 

When you're deprived of sex, you know there's a problem, and it's within your powers to do something about it.

[Liam1]

A lot of strawman arguments here. No one has called open relationships sleazy and immature.

 

Your statement is actually the strawman argument. I did NOT say that someone here called his actions sleazy or immature, I said SOME may. I.E. church elders or anyone who is opposed to such lifestyles.

 

I have skipped most of the posts here, so if someone else mentioned that, I missed it and apologize for being repetitive

 

It's the lying, betraying and back stabbing that got that label.

Not all affairs involve backstabbing or lying. Some people are very discreet and don't use marital assets. There is no need to lie, if the spouse never asks.

 

And, exactly how is the spouse backstabbed. Backstabbing involves bad mouthing the spouse. Not everyone who has an affair does that. So that statement is a logical fallacy.

 

Here is the definition of backstabbing:

 

back·stab·bing

ˈbakˌstabiNG/

noun

noun: back-stabbing; noun: backstabbing

 

1. 1.
   the action or practice of criticizing someone in a treacherous manner while feigning friendship.
   

But I actually agree with Liam that there are different ways to break a marriage vow/promise, ie. withholding sex for no reason.

Thank you.

 

The difference is, that the sex problem can be dealt with because both spouses are aware of the situation - that's not the case with infidelity and betrayal.

That is quite an assumption. And a logical fallacy. It assumes that the situation was never dealt with.

 

When one party of aware of issues and refuses counseling to correct it that is also a betrayal of the marriage vows. It does not show a willingness to love, honor or cherish.

 

In France the french say "they trust each other to deal with affairs in a discreet way" Affairs are considered acceptable in France. It is not having an affair that would upset them it. It is falling in love with someone else that leads to a divorce that would upset most French people.

 

Not everyone in all cultures find affairs traumatic. It's a view point.

 

Are they more evolved or less evolved? I don't know and I don't care. It works for them.

 

Affairs are kept secret as a way to protect the spouse, not harm them.

 

My affair IMPROVED my marriage. That's all that matters to me and my wife.

 

The old marriage was discarded and we started a new marriage.

 

I don't think that this would work for all people. Why? Ego maybe? I don't really know.

 

But I am not alone in my thinking. There are many infidelity experts who agree that an affair can save and improve a marriage by resetting it.

 

If you don't agree, fine. But that is my reality.

[Liam1]

I disagree. Many, if not most, withholding partners do not recognise it as a problem, because *they* don't have the problem. They have the situation they desire - i.e. no / little sex; it's the deprived partner who sees the problem. The withholding partner will often find an excuse for each individual occasion - but refuse to see the bigger picture. And it might be true that yes, today they did have a headache, and so weren't in the mood.... But "forget" that yesterday they were "too tired", and the day before his fingernails were dirty and that grossed her out, and they day before that she felt fat.... Etc.

 

Agreed, Cocorico:

 

Worse some spouses who have no interest in sex, will simply REFUSE to discuss it and will attempt to shut down discussion by using ridicule.

 

I know men who have been called perverts or accused of being too sex focused or dogs or one track minded or focus too much on the UNIMPORTANT aspects of a marriage.

 

My wife engaged in some of this verbal abuse, and a fair number of men in my BAN group have also complained of there wives using this form of emotional abuse.

 

One man said his wife told him to masturbate. That is totally disrespectful and dismissive and verbally abusive.

[mikeylo]

Going by the title , yes, there is no excuse for cheating.

[GorillaTheater]

Not all affairs involve backstabbing or lying. Some people are very discreet and don't use marital assets. There is no need to lie, if the spouse never asks.

 

And, exactly how is the spouse backstabbed. Backstabbing involves bad mouthing the spouse. Not everyone who has an affair does that. So that statement is a logical fallacy.

 

 

 

 

I hope you can get the knot out of that ethical standard, but it may be too hopelessly tangled by now.

 

 

My sense of ethics includes material omissions of the truth to be as dishonest as material misrepresentations of the truth.

 

 

And the essence of back-stabbing is betrayal. I hope you don't think that affairs, particularly undisclosed affairs, don't include betrayal.

[RecentChange]

Perhaps there is no excuse, but there are many reasons for cheating, and "horrible person" isn't the only reason.

 

My partner cheated, he's a good person with a caring heart. I cheated, I may not describe myself as positively as I do my partner, but I am def. not Lucifer.

 

Lucky for us, we also have considered our transgressions forgivable offenses, and love each other despite our failings.

 

To some, cheating is the ultimate offense, personally I place other things (physical / mental abuse for instance) much higher up on the "terrible" scale.

[wmacbride]

Your statement is actually the strawman argument. I did NOT say that someone here called his actions sleazy or immature, I said SOME may. I.E. church elders or anyone who is opposed to such lifestyles.

 

I have skipped most of the posts here, so if someone else mentioned that, I missed it and apologize for being repetitive

 

Not all affairs involve backstabbing or lying. Some people are very discreet and don't use marital assets. There is no need to lie, if the spouse never asks.

 

And, exactly how is the spouse backstabbed. Backstabbing involves bad mouthing the spouse. Not everyone who has an affair does that. So that statement is a logical fallacy.

 

Thank you.

 

That is quite an assumption. And a logical fallacy. It assumes that the situation was never dealt with.

 

When one party of aware of issues and refuses counseling to correct it that is also a betrayal of the marriage vows. It does not show a willingness to love, honor or cherish.

 

In France the french say "they trust each other to deal with affairs in a discreet way" Affairs are considered acceptable in France. It is not having an affair that would upset them it. It is falling in love with someone else that leads to a divorce that would upset most French people.

 

Not everyone in all cultures find affairs traumatic. It's a view point.

 

Are they more evolved or less evolved? I don't know and I don't care. It works for them.

 

Affairs are kept secret as a way to protect the spouse, not harm them.

 

My affair IMPROVED my marriage. That's all that matters to me and my wife.

 

The old marriage was discarded and we started a new marriage.

 

I don't think that this would work for all people. Why? Ego maybe? I don't really know.

 

But I am not alone in my thinking. There are many infidelity experts who agree that an affair can save and improve a marriage by resetting it.

 

If you don't agree, fine. But that is my reality.

 

 

I'm really wondering just how many people in france you have spoken with. I have friends and colleagues from there, and I have never heard them say anything lie that. Their opinion is that if someone is has a relationship outside of the marriage, then if they are honest about it with their spouse, then that is up to them. I don't think any cultural group is fine with dishonesty and lying in a rleationship, unless it is one where women are treated as little more than chattel.

 

btw, what happens if a bs asks if ws is cheating. You okay with gas lighting too?