When there's no one else to talk to ...

[merrmeade]

I've written a lot here. Laid it all out and then some. The story is so long, so weird and my own recovery, so up and down that I just can't do a synopsis and the details come out one way or another. The big things are that, over the course of four years since dDay I found out that WH had five affairs over the course of our marriage. The first one, over 40 years ago, was the only one that he seemed to consider a LTA because there was frequent sex over several months. The others were EAs with one ONS and occasional oral sex that HE thought didn't count. He doesn't think that now.

 

I've made much of the positives and negatives in the SLOW progress we've made with this thing called reconciliation. More and more, I'm beginning to think it is more aptly called a 'truce.' I think this is especially the case for me because H seems to have plateaued regarding how much he is able and willing to handle my setbacks and reactions to triggers. Maybe he's even going backwards. Or maybe I've just given him more credit than he deserves for how he's handled these episodes over the four years. Maybe there's only so much he's capable of. And, whether he sees no need or is simply threatened, he has no interest in going to therapy to understand his personal issues better. Instead, he feels cornered and targeted when I bring up anything from the past and how it's affecting me now. He simply doesn't do deep self-analysis or think about what makes a good or bad marriage. But mostly he is a lot more gentle, tolerant and understanding than he used to be.

 

Of course, there were - as is true for most - also marital issues even before the affair issues. For one thing, we're pretty much opposites. He's internal, quiet, reserved, unexpressive. When he feels cornered, he clams up even more. I'm out there, talk a lot and don't hold back saying what I think or feel. He considers me confrontational; I consider him uncommunicative.

 

So, recently I had a number of triggers over several days. One was looking at pictures of us over the years, realizing that in some he was in an affair. Another was seeing his brother and wife for the first time since I found out H and she had an affair before she met the brother. He was understanding about those two, especially seeing me break down at his mother's house. But when I took issue with the third one — an off-hand remark he'd made to a friend twice within a couple of days, joking about 'sweet talking' his (female) doctor into something — he balked. I said it reminded me of the flirty, charmer person who'd 'sweet-talked' every woman of any age his whole life. I pointed out that his sons wouldn't use it in that context nor would the friend he'd been talking to. He dismissed the issue, saying everybody uses that expression and left me feeling dismissed and troubled. When later he wanted to initiate sex, I couldn't and explained that I felt unvalidated and unresolved. He hardly remembered the conversation even when I told him. The more I talked, the less he responded. The more I explained, the broader and further back my examples went until we were back at the place where he says "yeah, I'm just a sh-t," leaves. discussion over.

 

When I feel devalued or dismissed by him, I fall immediately into sleep. I think it's a way not to think, feel or be present in a painful situation. This time I slept almost five hours.

 

It's clear to me he's tired of the subject even when I tell him I'll never be over it because he's never been able to talk at all or show he understands how I feel. He just asks rhetorical or off-putting questions like "Well, what do you think?!" or "How do you know?" It's a catch-22. He can't talk; I desperately need talk to the extent I feel too devalued even to have sex.

 

I think it's kind of a final impasse. He's ready to have longer and longer spells of normalcy and is impatient with my always going back to what he did.

 

I think - right or wrong - he can't and doesn't want to have these conversations. And actually neither do I! I want him to talk and show me he understands, but maybe need to accept he's not up to it and won't give me what I need anyway. Do I just avoid talking to him about affair issues and seek understanding elsewhere—as I did before with therapy? I refused to do it before as a way of being true to myself.

Edited March 26, 2016 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

In advance: Nobody and no post is going to do any better at pointing out that he doesn't deserve any of this. I can see how absurd it is and maybe the only answer IS getting out. But I am not discussing that and any attempt to push that agenda makes me obstinate.

 

As I've also conveyed, I don't hold circumstances or other people, even my husband who cheated on me multiple times, responsible for my own happiness. I consider marriage, especially once there are children (and now, grandchildren), a commitment that I've made to all the people it touches, to society and my own moral foundation—almost to the institution itself. I know it sounds pious and unromantic and maybe that's a problem. I'm neither bragging and, believe me, wish I could shake it. But I'm not apologizing for any of it and will not appreciate anyone side-tracking this into wtf-why-don't-just-dump-his-asz talk.

[purplesorrow]

He sounds like he is still very detached. If you are staying put, why not detach yourself. Participate more in the other areas of your life and find your joy in those things. Create some if you need to. You are disappointed because you're still expecting something that you realistically already know you're not going to get from it.

[burnt]

The more I talked, the less he responded. The more I explained, the broader and further back my examples went until we were back at the place where he says "yeah, I'm just a sh-t," leaves. discussion over.

 

In advance: Nobody and no post is going to do any better at pointing out that he doesn't deserve any of this. I can see how absurd it is and maybe the only answer IS getting out. But I am not discussing that and any attempt to push that agenda makes me obstinate.

 

But I'm not apologizing for any of it and will not appreciate anyone side-tracking this into wtf-why-don't-just-dump-his-asz talk.

 

Hi Merrmeade,

Thank you for the clarification, as some variation of "get out NOW" would have been my suggestion to you initially.

 

I won't try to persuade you into what you clearly stated as a "no option" for you. We all have a place where we draw the line on what we're willing to accept.

 

My motto is I'll accept ANYTHING, forgive any action, so long as the other person is willing to say "sorry" in a genuine self-reflective way and is willing to communicate. You take away honest communication, I don't give a hoot after that.

 

For you, it sounds like, you will not divorce no matter what; therefore by logic, what you are really saying is "NO MATTER what your husband does, you will stick to the marriage".

 

So here's my question: given his history of four cheating spun over so many years and his flirtatious behavior over a life time, and given the saying

**old habits die hard**

 

IF/WHEN he cheats on you again, how will you react?

 

But ultimately,

once you have made up your mind that you will stick with the marriage no matter what, even though he doesn't deserve it, and that there seems to be HUGE communication failure, your best course of action at this point is to accept that:

 

every marriage lacks something; perhaps yours will only thrive if you are able to let go of your hope to be able to communicate with him about what's stressing you.

 

You cannot change him; therefore the more productive focus ought to be about how you can change how you react to the lack of understanding on his part.

[road]

So, recently I had a number of triggers over several days. One was looking at pictures of us over the years, realizing that in some he was in an affair. Another was seeing his brother and wife for the first time since I found out H and she had an affair before she met the brother. He was understanding about those two, especially seeing me break down at his mother's house.

 

 

Does your BIL know that his wife was WH's AP?

 

 

 

 

Who knows how much your WH has grown from this. All he may have done is learned to not have any more affairs. So you may never get the empathy you want.

 

 

To have been cheated on multiple times over a long marriage has scared you.

 

 

Though every time that you bring up the past you are just giving yourself more scars. Stop picking at the scabs for you will never heal.

 

 

You have found out every detail. You have had all of your questions answered. There is no further need or benefit to talk about the affair with your WH.

 

 

Recovery once all the details are out is leaving the affair in the past.

[Ladyjane14]

Just to add to what Road said, when we continue to ruminate on the adultery, we're hard-wiring our brains to continue feeling anxious.

 

I totally get what you're saying. You look back at those pictures and feel like you've wasted your entire life with a worthless cheater. All that anger rushes in, and you think, how could he be smiling, surrounded by clueless family and friends, when he KNOWS what he did?

 

There are two things that help me. One is accepting that the WS will never fully understand the havoc they've caused. So, it's not about shutting you down or shutting you up. They just don't get it. It wasn't a traumatic life event for them, so their brains aren't predisposed to process it like that.

 

The other thing is the ongoing effort to take control of my own neural processing. Try Rewire Your Anxious Brain: How to Use the Neuroscience of Fear to End Anxiety, Panic, and Worry by Pittman and Karle for a more in-depth explanation.

 

Book apps are awesome. If you've got something you can download to and an app to go with it, books are in your hands in minutes.

[Zenstudent]

Merrmeade; sorry you are still struggling - and I believe I know exactly how it feels. At least I should, being almost five years out with a wife who prefers to pretend nothing happened. The kids are a huge factor in this.

 

When you're in a situation that hurts you, or that you're uncomfortable with - you basically have three choices:

 

1. Accept the situation

2. Change the situation

3. Get away from the situation

 

Now, you have ruled #3 out, which leaves you 2 options. In your case it might be a combination of the two.

 

I think it's safe to say, that you cannot change your husband - it's a fact, you can't change other people. That means that you have to accept your husband for who he is and what he stands for (untill he decides to change, at least).

 

You need to change your thinking, focus on other things than your husband and marriage, things that make you stronger, things you like and love to do.

 

Learn to appreciate little things in life, accept the world just the way it is - it'll give you peace.

 

Some people call it detachment from the situation, and it really is a good thing.

 

Do you like to read?

[Mrs. John Adams]

MM...

 

You know that your story is one that breaks my heart so much. One thing I think you need right now is to know how valuable you are ....your kids and family need and love you so much.....and i will even say....so does that ornery husband of yours.

 

You know triggers are just memories....and anything can cause them. We learn to deal with them as time goes on...but they cause such a flood of emotions.....good and bad.

 

John used to go into deep depression when he would trigger. He still has them....but they last a shorter period of time and they don't cause the uncontrollable depression. I think it helps him knowing that I care enough to help him through them.

 

Your husband may be giving you all he can.....you have eluded to that many times....(i don't think this is the case...but more on that in a minute)....but he certainly is not giving you all you need.

 

And there in lies the difference. You accept that he is incapable...therefore he is.

 

I am afraid you give up on him too easily....he knows which buttons to push...to frustrate you so that you will leave him alone.....and he pushes them frequently. He is a player...in more ways then one.

 

You have been crippling through this "reconciliation" for a long time...and there does not seem to be any further progress.

 

So I wonder ...if the time has come for you to give him an ultimatum. The trouble with this is....you have to be prepared for his answer.

 

Only you know how much you can deal with and how much you can take...and all the minute details of your relationship. I know you have said many times how handsome he is....and financial successful....and you have so many years invested in him....that starting over just does not seem possible to you.

 

You have worked tremendously on yourself....yet something seems to be eluding you....and that something is peace.

 

At the end of the day...it is your refection you see in the mirror...and my question to you is this....do you like who you see? Are you willing to accept your life just the way it is? Because...you cannot make him change....you cannot make him give you what you need. You cannot make him remorseful...and you and i both know...he isn't.

 

Remorse equals action. When he sees you hurt...does he do his best to comfort you? When he sees you struggling....does he give you strength?

When he sees you giving up...does he give you encouragement?

 

So simple...yet so hard for a selfish person. Understanding someone else's pain and doing something to alleviate it...is almost beyond comprehension.

 

Continue to fix...you. Stop trying to fix...him.....and take control of your own destiny.

 

If your children behaved as your husband behaves....you would reprimand them. He is not your child....he is your partner....it is time to tell he to do his part. You will no longer accept mediocre behavior from him. Insensitivity is disrespect. It is time for you to take back your power and assert it. You deserve a man who is fully committed to healing this broken relationship.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Mrs. John Adams

[Zenstudent]

I agree with you, MrsAdams, the only problem with this suggestion is, that MM needs to have tools, consequences for him when he says: "I need to change? Or else what...?"

 

MM has stated that D is out of the question, so what other consequences would that be? Expecting more from people than they are willing to give is setting your self up for disappointment and pain.

 

If her detachment isn't triggering a change in him, nothing will (D being ruled out).

[Mrs. John Adams]

yes....that's why i said...be prepared for his answer.

 

She has to be mentally...and physically...and financially....prepared for the answer he may give.

 

She is clearly unhappy with circumstances the way they are. She either accepts it...or changes it. She cannot change him.

 

Only she can decide.

[merrmeade]

So many astute answers - will try to pinpoint them later (stayed up LATE after the marathon post-trauma sleep and slept late)- but for now going to be with my delicious and peace-inducing grandchildren.

 

But PLEASE keep posting - ALL so helpful - and will keep reading....

[merrmeade]

Sometimes I think - Does trickle-truth disclosure (vs immediate voluntary confession) handicap R and BS healing? If communication is essential for R, is there no way for the BS to heal without it?

 

Think I know the answer and it's called settling. I'm taking purple sorrow's advice and filling my heart with other things today.

[harrybrown]

the pain from the affairs hurts us the BS.

 

But sometimes the WS never really sees or feels how much that the BS is hurt.

 

RA just make more of a mess.

 

But if your H could somehow feel how he would feel if you had affairs, he might have more empathy for your situation.

 

Does your counselor have any suggestions?

 

the triggers hurt me, but no one else. so I try to do things to make me feel better about myself, like exercise.

 

But that does not fill the empty hole.

 

I hope you do find something to help with the pain.

[ladydesigner]

He sounds like he is still very detached. If you are staying put, why not detach yourself. Participate more in the other areas of your life and find your joy in those things. Create some if you need to. You are disappointed because you're still expecting something that you realistically already know you're not going to get from it.

 

^^^^this is what currently works for me.

 

(((merrmeade)))

 

You expressed much of how I have felt and I have given up. I believe my WH just doesn't have it in him to do the work or doesn't care. He'd rather sweep it all under the rug and not let this define him as he says. Meanwhile I feel like the damn thing is defining me and I'm done having anything to do with his issues. He still continues to feel sorry for himself. No one can help my WH. It is actually really sad that I've accepting this and know the only way I can change this is by leaving I think

[merrmeade]

^^^^this is what currently works for me.

 

(((merrmeade)))

 

You expressed much of how I have felt and I have given up. I believe my WH just doesn't have it in him to do the work or doesn't care. He'd rather sweep it all under the rug and not let this define him as he says. Meanwhile I feel like the damn thing is defining me and I'm done having anything to do with his issues. He still continues to feel sorry for himself. No one can help my WH. It is actually really sad that I've accepting this and know the only way I can change this is by leaving I think

Back at you ... (((ladydesigner))) I think we see ourselves better in someone else's situation sometimes. I hate for your sake reading your self-doubt and especially your husband's vocabulary - this or that 'defining' you - but I do it too - get the same self-doubt and crippling buy-in to his way of viewing things.

[drifter777]

You suffer because WH refuses to put any effort into helping you heal and repairing your marriage and you won't even consider divorce.

 

Doesn't reading what I just wrote look just plain wrong?

[OneLov]

To me, you provide great insight that is beneficitial for the LS community. I'm sorry you're hurting. Be as strong of a voice in your relationship as you are here.

[merrmeade]

My decision not to divorce has been judged as wrong by someone who himself stayed for family. I was then attacked personally for being a loser sap and told my 'sacrifice is not wanted.'

 

It's upsetting, and I'm not sure I can get back to the topic anyway. As predicted, it had the opposite effect and made me more determined than ever not to be 'handled' again, put on the defensive or bullied. I got enough of that for a lifetime. I refuse to be bullied into discussing my reasons for staying - again - or trying to convince anyone that I've done the right thing. It will have to be closed if that's where this is going because that is not MY question.

 

I guess it's because I wasn't able to get back earlier to answer Page 1 which was very helpful—thank you. I was going to answer a few points, but then that stuff started on p. 2, making me feel disrespected and attacked for no reason. The vitriole is bewildering, and the assumptions, wrong. What did I do to u.p.? Still, on principle I refuse to be bullied (especially by other BSs) and will not be co-opted into diverting my own thread by answering their judgments and doubts. If the subject becomes about why I stay, the thread might as well be closed.

 

I will say I'm surprised at aliveagain for passing judgment so simplistically, especially when his own situation could be judged by the same standards. Why does he get to decide that his reasons for staying are more legitimate than mine? Why is staying for the sake of his grandson so all-fired unassailable anyway? aa's decision to stay in his marriage is no more noble, irrefutably right or irreversible than anyone else's, and he should give pause before judging another BS's set of decisions to stay. Nor do I have the right or interest to judge aa's choice, excuse or whatever you want to call it.

 

Has it come to this then—that BSs in 'bad' reconciliations don't have a voice in this forum? Does it mean that, if we haven't followed someone else's script, we cannot bring up our issues for fear of ridicule?

Edited March 27, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[merrmeade]

Hi Merrmeade,

Thank you for the clarification, as some variation of "get out NOW" would have been my suggestion to you initially.

 

I won't try to persuade you into what you clearly stated as a "no option" for you. We all have a place where we draw the line on what we're willing to accept.

 

My motto is I'll accept ANYTHING, forgive any action, so long as the other person is willing to say "sorry" in a genuine self-reflective way and is willing to communicate. You take away honest communication, I don't give a hoot after that.

 

For you, it sounds like, you will not divorce no matter what; therefore by logic, what you are really saying is "NO MATTER what your husband does, you will stick to the marriage".

 

So here's my question: given his history of four cheating spun over so many years and his flirtatious behavior over a life time, and given the saying

**old habits die hard**

 

IF/WHEN he cheats on you again, how will you react?

 

But ultimately,

once you have made up your mind that you will stick with the marriage no matter what, even though he doesn't deserve it, and that there seems to be HUGE communication failure, your best course of action at this point is to accept that:

 

every marriage lacks something; perhaps yours will only thrive if you are able to let go of your hope to be able to communicate with him about what's stressing you.

 

You cannot change him; therefore the more productive focus ought to be about how you can change how you react to the lack of understanding on his part.

This was breathtakingly logical and more sobering than all the hyperbole in the world. The last two paragraphs just about wrap it up.

 

Two things: He did say "sorry" - often - and meant it. He just didn't say much else. Second, not going to cheat again. He knows that I have the rest of the story of his life and might very well tell the kids the rest of his sins.** He's 68, is losing his balance, and has to wear leg splints to walk. His teeth are rotten, skin splotched from gvhd and he looks over 70 from ill health.

 

But he does know I'd be gone on a dime should he do squat. (And I don't give a flying f--k who believes me. He and I are the only ones that need to know it's true.

 

**Fact is - I probably wouldn't for their sakes but can't really say. Point is HE's afraid of it.

[merrmeade]

Comments in bold:

Does your BIL know that his wife was WH's AP?

Yes, but they don't know that I only found out two years ago.

 

Who knows how much your WH has grown from this. That is the point. I don't know. All he may have done is learned to not have any more affairs. And that is certainly a fact. He said to me resentfully a few weeks ago something like - what you want? I never see anyone and keep myself locked in this house. - also something I j So you may never get the empathy you want. Agree that's probably true.

 

To have been cheated on multiple times over a long marriage has scared you. Though every time that you bring up the past you are just giving yourself more scars. Stop picking at the scabs for you will never heal. You have found out every detail. You have had all of your questions answered. There is no further need or benefit to talk about the affair with your WH. Recovery once all the details are out is leaving the affair in the past.

Thank you, road. I know this. It's just that there ARE triggers and I need empathy from someone. That's why I came here.

[merrmeade]

Learn to appreciate little things in life, accept the world just the way it is - it'll give you peace.

 

Some people call it detachment from the situation, and it really is a good thing.

this is really quite lovelyl. I thought I had accepted but obviously not. Thank you, zs.

[merrmeade]

To me, you provide great insight that is beneficitial for the LS community. I'm sorry you're hurting. Be as strong of a voice in your relationship as you are here.

Thank you very much, OneLove. This meant a lot to me.

[ladydesigner]

(((Merrmeade))) you will process this the way you need to. I think for some of us it takes a lot longer to process that we are not in an ideal M. I also think some of us need time to detach enough from the situation to make better decisions for ourselves. Are you seeing an IC?

[merrmeade]

Are you seeing an IC?

Soooooo, wish I were. I saw one for 9 months and it helped 1000%. That was all I could afford, but yes that's really the answer.

[Robert]

Let's make your posts on topic, helpful and not hurtful.. thanks