When there's no one else to talk to ...

[katielee]

 

 

Use LS, a girlfriend, or a therapist to drone on and on about emotional stuff.

 

 

isn't that what this thread is all about?

 

I think you are selling men WAYYYYYY short. I know several in another forum and here who would do anything to keep their wives that offer them the gift of reconciliation.

[merrmeade]

I think a problem is you not needing more details but you needing WH to be 100% honest.

 

Lack of total honesty is the sticking point for you.

Is this a question, an observation or a recommendation?

[merrmeade]

Clearly, Mermeades husband was probably always the way he is and she knew that from the start. To expect him to morph overnight just because he cheated is unrealistic.

...

I would look instead to what he does. You are more likely to find his expressions of remorse in what he does rather than what he says.

 

If that's not enough, then you need to make deep discussions more tolerable for him, by having them about more neutral subjects to start with and timing them to when he feels more vulnerable/loving, which is after making love, which Mermeade ironically closed off because she was feeling hurt. Have sex........talk gently about what is bothering you and what you would like for him to do to help you. Keep it simple/short.

 

Use LS, a girlfriend, or a therapist to drone on and on about emotional stuff.

 

And, honestly, I challenge most women to think long and hard about whether or not they would be willing to listen to this stuff and "be" remorseful day after day for years on end. I know I wouldn't no matter what I did. So, again, I'm going to suggest that maybe Mrs. JA is an exception even for women.

I'm not sure how much of the last paragraph I agree with but, my god, the rest of it is so spot on I'm sitting here all by myself (not true: precious baby grandson sleeps beside me ) blushing.

 

1st paragraph: Yes, always was that way. He was a rebound relationship. Somebody broke up with me and H was the top catch in the school. But the first time we made love I thought and later wrote in my journal, "Your face, sir, is stone..."

 

2nd para: Another quote - what I've always said to myself and, later, my kids when they were confused by their father's words and behavior: "Go by what he does, not what he says." And, in fact, I am 100% sure that in his mind he feels that he is doing all he possibly can for me. He orders Viagra and does all he can to satisfy me sexually (in his mind that's #1). He helps, complains little or mildly and generally bends over backwards to be the best provider, supporter, lover and roommate he can be. As we've established: He doesn't get it and this, to him, is I think giving it all he's got.

 

3rd & 4th para: Very observant and practical advice. I do not disagree with any of this and think it's an astute observation and recommendation

[katielee]

So, being an emotionally closed off and inaccessible guy- how'd that work out for him?

[velvette]

isn't that what this thread is all about?

 

I think you are selling men WAYYYYYY short. I know several in another forum and here who would do anything to keep their wives that offer them the gift of reconciliation.

 

Perhaps, but it is interesting that none of them have jumped in to say I am selling them short.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merremeade,

 

Several years ago...John joined another forum and started a thread titled....what is remorse. (I was not aware of this and not a member)

 

He got all kinds of advice....many people told him to divorce me....(some of those people are also members here) some people told him to look at my actions...(and some of those people are also members here).

 

They said...she has been a faithful wife ...she has been transparent...and her ACTIONS tell you she is remorseful.

 

Your husband may never TELL you what he is feeling...but if you see his actions of expressions of his love and devotion....it may be all you ever get.

 

IF this is the way he has always been....he certainly is not going to change now.

 

Like i said earlier....this is only about the two of you and what you are comfortable with. It doesn't mean you can't hope for more...but it does mean acceptance can be rewarding.

 

What i need...What John needs....what Road needs...what Katielee needs....truly doesn't matter.

 

What does our Merremeade? and does her husband show her to the best of his abilities he is sorry for what he has done?

[merrmeade]

I'm not sure how much of the last paragraph I agree with but, my god, the rest of it is so spot on I'm sitting here all by myself (not true: precious baby grandson sleeps beside me ) blushing. ...

As soon as I wrote all that and submitted the post, I realized how unbelievably ridiculous I've been all my life, thinking that H and I share the same goals and expectations in our relationship. In fact, it's pathetic.

 

And being spot on in describing him as a typical, predictable Western male, who can be 'handled' if you remember how inflexible, unexpressive, inconsistent and incapable of self-reflection he is - well, is saying precious little. He essentially has not improved his relationship or communication skills since he left his family of origin and I'm going to stop.

 

The point of saying I'm not going to divorce is not that I don't think I deserve better. I do. Or that I can't get better. I mean, I don't really know at my age. It's that I don't want the mess before or after. I want my kids and grandkids to have access to their father and grandfather. For two of the grandkids, he's the only they've got. I'd rather try to improve the status quo for all concerned than ask them to adjust to a new family arrangement because I need a new life. He also offers them unique interests, things to learn and memories. He's a better grandfather than he was a father and is still trying.

 

Yes, velvette's suggestions are what you do with someone still not developed emotionally or actualized as a human being - basically immature as somebody said a couple of pages ago. Not that I'm thrilled about reinforcing the grim forecast Mrs. JA put forth, e.g., that he doesn't have enough years left to get that much better. But I think it's true that he'd be less intimidated or confused if I could remember to think in these ways (while trying not to label) and not push for too much too soon. Sigh. Boring and barren.

 

I was a good teacher and had infinite patience with adolescents. They're fascinating human beings and worth making the effort to help them find their best adult selves. But I don't hide well my impatience with adults still acting like adolescents - that would be the profile velvette put forth. That would be my husband.

 

BUT there have always been men who don't fit the stereotype - my father for one - and I don't agree that this sad, limited ability to have full, honest relationships is how most men are these days. I've got my sons to prove it and most of the men who regularly post here. They're satirized in the media, and we're entertained less and less by one-dimensional male protagonists. I just don't happen to have one.

 

I know they're out there but don't think it's realistic to think I'd come across one even if I were available or I'd work at finding one at this stage of life.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade...I said a lot of things...but i don't think i said anything about him being to old to try to improve. I don't know how old he is.

 

But since age is mentioned...I am 61 years old.....I certainly would not want to start over at my age. I would not want to be alone now and have to split our finances.

 

I totally get what you are saying....

 

If at this point john decided he wanted a divorce...I would be devastated for many reasons....but my age would certainly remind me that there is a much shorter time frame ahead than is behind me.

[underpants]

Merm,

 

I apologize if I rub you the wrong way. Is seems a pattern with you. If a poster says, loose quote, 'I would never put up with that' or 'your H is a jerk'. I have read you go on the defensive. Even one nice younger person who saw you as a mother figure. If a poster you respect sticks up for a thought that triggers you that poster is then demonized. You should (IMHO) think about that. It does seem to be a go to and that could be viewed as triangulating in and of itself. Is this not the place to share opinions? Not just the ones you want to hear?

 

There would be no incentive for me to post if it were not to help, I do carry a pitchfork, so I accept that.

 

It is all interesting to read, an experience outside of our boundaries. Some like to watch train wrecks, others like to offer a life jacket.

 

I do think reconciliation is possible, but extremely rare. I have read (very few) threads where a R has gone well, it seems to have been a short, or one time thing (that is disclosed), and true remorse and years gone by. You don't have that. I understand the lure of those stories and posters as you want your reality to be that reality. With a serial cheat I just don't think that is possible, that is my opinion, mine alone.

 

What I've read with you is extortion, fear and blackmail to keep your wayward at bay.

 

In a public forum, hope is nice, but after years, false hope is cruel.

 

If another lurker is reading your threads trying to gain a decision, what would you tell them? Would you censor remarks to fit your narrative or let an organic collective thought process take place?

 

I do hope you find what you need Merm. I do.

Edited March 28, 2016 by underpants

[underpants]

Or you bow out of the thread you created.

[understand50]

merrmeade,

 

If your husband had never cheated, or if you had never found out, would you still be having these issue with a distant unemotional husband? What I am pointing out, is again he is who he is, and he will not change, nor will many of us. The only thing you have to control is yourself, and how you deal with him. Many of us have given you advise or examples of what we do to try and overcome the environment of our relationships and marriages. Is there nothing you can see that may help you? Any idea that rings a bell? Can you put together a plan of action? I think that in many ways, you need to move forward, and until you do, he just will not budge. The only time he came close to "changing" was when you left for a short time. I think, that if he saw you getting more independent, more self confident, and more self contained, he would see that little by little he was losing you.

 

BTW, the comment about him not having a lot of time to change was from me. It took Mrs. Adams 30 years to feel and understand what John was going trough. Maybe it takes us all a life time to see as well. I just would not like to see you live in depression, because you feel that you cannot change your situation, and I am not talking about divorce. Can you think of any idea that would make your life and marriage better, and is something you can do?

 

I am a take action person, I think that we all do better when we are actively working towards some goal, or fighting against some outcome we do not want. I challenge you to come up with ways to make your life better, and to make yourself move forward. Your husband will follow. I sense that that is what he does. The only person you can control is you. This has been said many times, but it is true. I know you can do this, you just have decide you will.

 

As always I wish you luck and the best outcome possible......

[ShatteredLady]

I understand the frustrations here. I read the opening post & so very much hit home with me. I really hoped that I could learn something. I'm not doing very well lately...as shown in my crazy rants! I'm trying to survive. I truly didn't expect just the usual "If he can't give you what you need...the perfect, empathic, open, partner then DIVORCE or threaten divorce".

 

There MUST be something in the middle! Surely there's some advice for us idiots who want FAMILY survival. I want to sit at the head table with my H when my kids marry. I want us to hold our grandchildren together. I want to finish the life I've started, for all of these years, with my FAMILY! My H is my family!! Or at least I believed he was. I had blind faith.

 

Back to the original post....

 

"For one thing, we're pretty much opposites. He's internal, quiet, reserved, unexpressive. When he feels cornered, he clams up even more. I'm out there, talk a lot and don't hold back saying what I think or feel. He considers me confrontational; I consider him uncommunicative."

 

I come from a family that talks all the time. We talk about everything & nothing. When you've grown-up around the kitchen table, with no distractions, just talking...it's so incredibly hard, particularly when the nightmares come, to be so alone.

I do "hold back saying what I think or feel". I'm not at all confrontational. I never shout or scream. I'd rather take the pain than hurt anyone. I DON'T believe that "You always hurt the one you love", quite the opposite.

 

I cry & trigger everyday.

 

"He hardly remembered the conversation even when I told him. The more I talked, the less he responded. The more I explained, the broader and further back my examples went until we were back at the place where he says "yeah, I'm just a sh-t," leaves. discussion over."

 

Yep! This is exactly what happens in our house! I try to explain how I feel & I get shut down. I'm terrified of hurting him or sending him into a depressive episode. The whole "Yeah, I'm just a s**t" is where our conversations end. I don't know if it's the same for you but I think my H really means it!! Any mention makes him feel like "s**t"' I'm the bad guy, he blames me for making HIM feel bad.

 

I try to find the most gentle ways to encourage him to TALK. I desperately need to feel loved & understood. I just want to know that he understands, that he feels something other than a bit of yucky guilt because he's not perfect!!

 

"When I feel devalued or dismissed by him, I fall immediately into sleep. I think it's a way not to think, feel or be present in a painful situation. This time I slept almost five hours."

 

This is depression. Deep, deep dark depression. I'm asleep, crying or faking it. This isn't a life. I'm so exhausted. I yearn for peace. I just want to close my eyes & welcome the darkness.

 

I've experienced "The phone call. The appointment". "I'm sorry to tell you Mrs Shattered but your test has come back positive. You have cervical & glandular cancer". Honestly I wasn't that bothered! As it settled I felt terrible. I can't leave my babies but the thought of it all being over, without the guilt of taking my own life actually helped for a while.

 

"It's clear to me he's tired of the subject even when I tell him I'll never be over it because he's never been able to talk at all or show he understands how I feel. He just asks rhetorical or off-putting questions like "Well, what do you think?!" or "How do you know?" It's a catch-22. He can't talk; I desperately need talk to the extent I feel too devalued even to have sex."

 

Yep! I know what you mean, what you feel. I have this problem. I start conversations with "Why did it start? Did you just want sex with her?". I give him the answer in the question. We can 'talk' for ages & I feel better...then I realize that I've done ALL of the talking! He hasn't actually said anything!!

 

"I think it's kind of a final impasse. He's ready to have longer and longer spells of normalcy and is impatient with my always going back to what he did."

 

My H wants it all over & done with. My entire reality was smashed to shreds but it's all over now! All of those cruel things said should be forgotten. He claims not to even remember most of it.

 

"I think - right or wrong - he can't and doesn't want to have these conversations. And actually neither do I! I want him to talk and show me he understands, but maybe need to accept he's not up to it and won't give me what I need anyway."

 

I don't know if it's because I'm sick & broken or maybe I'm just too weak. I've reached the point that even the sickly sweet bollocks he fed her would be enough for me! He tells me that he loves me but it doesn't feel real. We don't talk about the past, we don't talk about the future.

 

I grew-up inseparable from my brother so all of my families memories of me are their memories of him. Thinking about my brother, since his suicide makes my parents so very sad so they don't reminisce. I don't have a childhood anymore. My life brings sadness.

 

Since my H's A with the same OW as 12 years ago all of those years have disappeared. Even the birth of my kids.... Oh I don't know. Everything is so bloody sad. I don't exist.

 

Sorry. I just wanted to say "Hugs". It's such a bloody tragic mess. I'm so sorry. I don't want divorce either. There must be something else that someone can say. Maybe not. Sometimes I just desperately need to talk. To have someone listen. Oh I don't know. Life sucks.

[merrmeade]

I truly didn't expect just the usual "If he can't give you what you need...the perfect, empathic, open, partner then DIVORCE or threaten divorce".

And I think you need to read the thread again, SL! Only a few said "divorce" or nothing. For me, this has been an incredible discussion actually, that's looked at all sides of reconciliation and finally, by the end, managed to do so without judgmental patronizing - mostly.

 

No one needs to feel sorry for me. What I needed here I got, though I must admit that for a few pages it felt like a mistake. By page 3 though, the discussion started to flow, comments built on each other, new perspectives added complexity. And don't forget, SL: When you start a thread, as discouraging as some of the finger-waggers can be, most of the outrage they're expressing is on your behalf. It may be clumsy, but when there's heart it is still support.

 

Listen, give yourself a break, dear lady. You're still in the first year, right? The pain is just there for a period of time as a result of the betrayal. It takes a while, but time does help. Accepting that there will still be ups and downs is also part of it. I think understand50's last post really nails it - that whatever stage your marriage or former marriage is in, it's really up to you to find happiness that doesn't depend on your spouse.

 

I wonder if you really CAN compare people who divorce and people who stay. Sometimes people who divorce talk about how free they felt after the D, but I wonder if those who stayed in R would have felt that way if they'd divorced? Maybe the point is that we don't D because THAT will feel like the bigger regret for us.

 

All the rest you said echoed the moods and states I've experienced, and I know you can't just decide not to feel that way or stop thinking about what's made you feel down, devalued or alone when you are despairing or just upset. In fact, I think if you try to deny these feelings you'll just end up more down, more troubled, more depressed. But I don't have as many downs these days, and they don't last as long, so I think time does help.

 

The strategies, perspectives and suggestions were phenomenal. I've done or am doing a lot of what was suggested here and there, but not consistently or with much confidence or determination. What's helped as much as anything has been (a) the circle of support I felt winding 'round and 'round me, (b) the EFFORT heard in the voices to give concrete advice on my behalf and (b) permission NOT to keep banging my head against the wall of his 'limitations.' They did this respectfully and without implying I'm a fool for staying with such a man as my H.

 

But I don't think the advice I got is necessarily the advice for someone in the first year or two following Dday. I don't think it would have helped me either when everything was still so raw. The ONLY thing that helped me start digging my way out of the isolation and let the storm of emotions play out was IC. I NEEDed to rage at the freaking injustice of it and talk my way out of the depression of isolation. Somehow it helped to do that with someone who knew how to name it, to talk about why it's there and what's working and what's not and to make me feel good about the things I was doing well. In therapy, all that has a way of purging much of the horror and trauma and give you back your independence and love of self. When I start to lose that, as I did recently, I can start a thread and usually get solace and affirmation but earlier that wasn't enough.

 

I think the fact that you could read the posts and take away discouragement and despair and that I read them and left with peace and hope indicates that we're in different places and need different things. LS wasn't enough for me at a year, even two years out nor was marriage counseling. I needed IC.

I've experienced "The phone call. The appointment". "I'm sorry to tell you Mrs Shattered but your test has come back positive. You have cervical & glandular cancer". Honestly I wasn't that bothered! As it settled I felt terrible. I can't leave my babies but the thought of it all being over, without the guilt of taking my own life actually helped for a while.

And that! That is just is so over the top unfair that you had to struggle with cancer treatment along with his infidelity. I don't even want to ask how he was during that. My H had leukemia, and I know the disease and treatment themselves cause depression, which would have added to your heartbreak and despair. It's unimaginable, which is why you need for an expert on human beings and being human listen to you and then for you to hear the sincere admiration this expert has for your courage, strength and determination as a mother and a woman.

There MUST be something in the middle! Surely there's some advice for us idiots who want FAMILY survival. I want to sit at the head table with my H when my kids marry. I want us to hold our grandchildren together. I want to finish the life I've started, for all of these years, with my FAMILY! My H is my family!! Or at least I believed he was. I had blind faith.

After my last post, we took the dog to the park and I realized how different I am now compared to the first post in this thread. The thread, all the voices, the outrage, the suggestions, the humor and the (((((hugs)))) did exactly what I needed. I thought about understand50's incredible ability to stand apart, look at issues and the people behind the posts and compare common denominators. Post #48 is an incredible comparison of three different reconciliations that neither favors nor denigrates any of them, while encouraging and validating all.

 

Honey, you may be sick, but you're not broken or weak. What you're feeling now is what you're supposed to feel. Just feel, keep talking and writing, and know that it will not always be like this. Also know that you are amazingly brave and strong.

 

- and that your lovely children are bearing witness. Some day they'll be able to put words to it, if only for themselves. Whether they do or don't know about the infidelity, they know that, even though this was a hard time for you, you never stopped being the best mother you could be for them. Don't think for a minute that they don't also get who your husband is as a person and who you are.

 

Mine are adults now, but every once in a while I see it. They love their father, want what's best for him, but they know and could articulate the 'limitations' we've discussed here. Still, they don't. They also know me, and I can see how they feel about that. It's enough. Best of all - they are awesome individuals, unique from each other but also 'relationship mature' (in ways discussed in this thread). They value and know what strong, loving relationships look and feel like—all things I used to TALK about with them as they moved through life and reflected on what they saw and felt. They have the relationships that I wanted, and that is enormously gratifying to me. Well, that awareness and conscious ability to nurture relationships? You know where they didn't get it.

 

You will get this, too, from your adult children, SL, and I have no doubt that even now their ability to thrive, love and be loved, to learn and enjoy life is because of you. You don't even need to add 'despite your suffering.' That should give you pride and courage every day.

 

And this:

It's such a bloody tragic mess. I'm so sorry. I don't want divorce either. There must be something else that someone can say. Maybe not. Sometimes I just desperately need to talk. To have someone listen. Oh I don't know. Life sucks.

It's just okay to feel and okay to say all that. You need to receive a little outrage from others (or a lot) and a little (((()))) - or maybe a lot - much more often these days. Don't apologize. Edited March 29, 2016 by merrmeade
It was long and needed editing.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merremeade...your post to SL was wonderful...

 

Sometimes in focusing on others and not ourselves...we get a better perspective of our own situations.

 

I think that's one of the reasons I keep posting.

 

It helps me to sort through my own demons.

[ladydesigner]

And I think you need to read the thread again, SL! Only a few said "divorce" or nothing. For me, this has been an incredible discussion actually, that's looked at all sides of reconciliation and finally, by the end, managed to do so without judgmental patronizing - mostly.

 

No one needs to feel sorry for me. What I needed here I got, though I must admit that for a few pages it felt like a mistake. By page 3 though, the discussion started to flow, comments built on each other, new perspectives added complexity. And don't forget, SL: When you start a thread, as discouraging as some of the finger-waggers can be, most of the outrage they're expressing is on your behalf. It may be clumsy, but when there's heart it is still support.

 

Listen, give yourself a break, dear lady. You're still in the first year, right? The pain is just there for a period of time as a result of the betrayal. It takes a while, but time does help. Accepting that there will still be ups and downs is also part of it. I think understand50's last post really nails it - that whatever stage your marriage or former marriage is in, it's really up to you to find happiness that doesn't depend on your spouse.

 

I wonder if you really CAN compare people who divorce and people who stay. Sometimes people who divorce talk about how free they felt after the D, but I wonder if those who stayed in R would have felt that way if they'd divorced? Maybe the point is that we don't D because THAT will feel like the bigger regret for us.

 

All the rest you said echoed the moods and states I've experienced, and I know you can't just decide not to feel that way or stop thinking about what's made you feel down, devalued or alone when you are despairing or just upset. In fact, I think if you try to deny these feelings you'll just end up more down, more troubled, more depressed. But I don't have as many downs these days, and they don't last as long, so I think time does help.

 

The strategies, perspectives and suggestions were phenomenal. I've done or am doing a lot of what was suggested here and there, but not consistently or with much confidence or determination. What's helped as much as anything has been (a) the circle of support I felt winding 'round and 'round me, (b) the EFFORT heard in the voices to give concrete advice on my behalf and (b) permission NOT to keep banging my head against the wall of his 'limitations.' They did this respectfully and without implying I'm a fool for staying with such a man as my H.

 

But I don't think the advice I got is necessarily the advice for someone in the first year or two following Dday. I don't think it would have helped me either when everything was still so raw. The ONLY thing that helped me start digging my way out of the isolation and let the storm of emotions play out was IC. I NEEDed to rage at the freaking injustice of it and talk my way out of the depression of isolation. Somehow it helped to do that with someone who knew how to name it, to talk about why it's there and what's working and what's not and to make me feel good about the things I was doing well. In therapy, all that has a way of purging much of the horror and trauma and give you back your independence and love of self. When I start to lose that, as I did recently, I can start a thread and usually get solace and affirmation but earlier that wasn't enough.

 

I think the fact that you could read the posts and take away discouragement and despair and that I read them and left with peace and hope indicates that we're in different places and need different things. LS wasn't enough for me at a year, even two years out nor was marriage counseling. I needed IC. And that! That is just is so over the top unfair that you had to struggle with cancer treatment along with his infidelity. I don't even want to ask how he was during that. My H had leukemia, and I know the disease and treatment themselves cause depression, which would have added to your heartbreak and despair. It's unimaginable, which is why you need for an expert on human beings and being human listen to you and then for you to hear the sincere admiration this expert has for your courage, strength and determination as a mother and a woman. After my last post, we took the dog to the park and I realized how different I am now compared to the first post in this thread. The thread, all the voices, the outrage, the suggestions, the humor and the (((((hugs)))) did exactly what I needed. I thought about understand50's incredible ability to stand apart, look at issues and the people behind the posts and compare common denominators. Post #48 is an incredible comparison of three different reconciliations that neither favors nor denigrates any of them, while encouraging and validating all.

 

Honey, you may be sick, but you're not broken or weak. What you're feeling now is what you're supposed to feel. Just feel, keep talking and writing, and know that it will not always be like this. Also know that you are amazingly brave and strong.

 

- and that your lovely children are bearing witness. Some day they'll be able to put words to it, if only for themselves. Whether they do or don't know about the infidelity, they know that, even though this was a hard time for you, you never stopped being the best mother you could be for them. Don't think for a minute that they don't also get who your husband is as a person and who you are.

 

Mine are adults now, but every once in a while I see it. They love their father, want what's best for him, but they know and could articulate the 'limitations' we've discussed here. Still, they don't. They also know me, and I can see how they feel about that. It's enough. Best of all - they are awesome individuals, unique from each other but also 'relationship mature' (in ways discussed in this thread). They value and know what strong, loving relationships look and feel like—all things I used to TALK about with them as they moved through life and reflected on what they saw and felt. They have the relationships that I wanted, and that is enormously gratifying to me. Well, that awareness and conscious ability to nurture relationships? You know where they didn't get it.

 

You will get this, too, from your adult children, SL, and I have no doubt that even now their ability to thrive, love and be loved, to learn and enjoy life is because of you. You don't even need to add 'despite your suffering.' That should give you pride and courage every day.

 

And this: It's just okay to feel and okay to say all that. You need to receive a little outrage from others (or a lot) and a little (((()))) - or maybe a lot - much more often these days. Don't apologize.

 

This post just helped me! Thanks for starting this thread merrmeade. Not all of us are in ideal M's or R but we are surviving and managing to be happy despite the obvious. Hope you are feeling good today!

[merrmeade]

This post just helped me! Thanks for starting this thread merrmeade. Not all of us are in ideal M's or R but we are surviving and managing to be happy despite the obvious. Hope you are feeling good today!

SO good and I really believe it's thanks to the thread! I got so much done today, which ironically, feels like freedom!

[merrmeade]

I'd like to get reflection on something I do in secret that haven't stopped.

 

Initially after Dday I went through all his emails and records. I got a little obsessive and made color-coded, carefully formatted documents many with the same content but with different painstaking ways of organizing or commenting on them. I did the same thing with columns and columns of times and dates of phone calls and emails. I put them in a folder called "Lest I forget...." I have copies of all the emails in my email account under a folder called "Not Just Friends..." along with LS quotes, articles and other affair stuff.

 

Well, here's the confession: Sometimes I go back and read them. I just did and the result is that every time I'm more shocked at how sleezy and manipulative he was and how fawning and in love she was and how secretly negative, hateful and bitter she sounded when they discussed my family, especially my father and brother, her husband — something I never knew. Different things stand out each time about both of them. It makes me hate her more and feel disgusted by him and the lies to everyone, including himself, and sleezy, sleezy effort to build himself up in her eyes. And then I'm more shocked at my lack of disgust and action at the time and obsessive way of dealing everything by carefully labeling and organizing them for posterity.

 

Anybody have any idea wtf I was doing then and am doing now when I feel the need to go back and read them? Sometimes I'm reminded of something during the day that I remember he said to her or vice versa, and I want to go back and look it up again.

 

It's bad. It's counterproductive to everything that I so enthusiastically affirmed in this thread. I cannot ever get rid of them, so don't recommend that. It's my cross. My proof that it happened. Testimony to my horror and his secrets. But I think it's unhealthy, especially when I do that instead of sleeping. I need a good lecture or explanation - some insight so I can get back to living.

 

I think to let it go is to forgive and forget. I think that's why I keep going back and to remind myself of what he was capable of. This is not a good nocturnal activity, right?

[heartwhole]

I imagine there is a spectrum for how one handles that kind of information. On one end you have total avoidance and rug-sweeping. On the other end you have obsessive categorization and review. I think it would be helpful if you could inch a little closer to the center of the spectrum. You don't need to read every hurtful word to remember his weaknesses and actions. Perhaps you could keep out one or two representative emails and put the rest in a safe deposit box that you can't easily access.

 

I have obsessively checked what I have easy access to, though I did instinctively avoid reading all of their messages (that would have required using a data retrieval app). But I've pored over our text messages to each other, the few things he didn't delete from her on his phone, and all of her social media posts that are obviously about him. It finally occurred to me a month ago that I was stuck there, and that nothing was going to change. I wasn't going to discover anything new or get any better closure. I decided that if I can't let those things go, then I'm going to review them with WH and have him acknowledge how, yes, he did those things, and, yes, they hurt. I told him of this plan and he agreed. Somehow just coming to that decision has eased me of the burden and I haven't done the sit-down yet.

 

Of course you are afraid to forget because you don't want to get hurt again. But you don't need to review every word they ever wrote to each other to remember the affair. I think at the end of the day, ruminating on the exact words they said is not useful to moving forward. I cannot deny that my husband felt or did those things, but I know that that's not who he is or how he acts today. I have been given a window into his darkest and worst self, and it's important that I remember who he is and can be at his worst, but it's simple strategy to focus on his best efforts and best self. I think that who I believe and expect him to be largely determines which version of him I get.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I'd like to get reflection on something I do in secret that haven't stopped.

 

Initially after Dday I went through all his emails and records. I got a little obsessive and made color-coded, carefully formatted documents many with the same content but with different painstaking ways of organizing or commenting on them. I did the same thing with columns and columns of times and dates of phone calls and emails. I put them in a folder called "Lest I forget...." I have copies of all the emails in my email account under a folder called "Not Just Friends..." along with LS quotes, articles and other affair stuff.

 

Well, here's the confession: Sometimes I go back and read them. I just did and the result is that every time I'm more shocked at how sleezy and manipulative he was and how fawning and in love she was and how secretly negative, hateful and bitter she sounded when they discussed my family, especially my father and brother, her husband — something I never knew. Different things stand out each time about both of them. It makes me hate her more and feel disgusted by him and the lies to everyone, including himself, and sleezy, sleezy effort to build himself up in her eyes. And then I'm more shocked at my lack of disgust and action at the time and obsessive way of dealing everything by carefully labeling and organizing them for posterity.

 

Anybody have any idea wtf I was doing then and am doing now when I feel the need to go back and read them? Sometimes I'm reminded of something during the day that I remember he said to her or vice versa, and I want to go back and look it up again.

 

It's bad. It's counterproductive to everything that I so enthusiastically affirmed in this thread. I cannot ever get rid of them, so don't recommend that. It's my cross. My proof that it happened. Testimony to my horror and his secrets. But I think it's unhealthy, especially when I do that instead of sleeping. I need a good lecture or explanation - some insight so I can get back to living.

 

I think to let it go is to forgive and forget. I think that's why I keep going back and to remind myself of what he was capable of. This is not a good nocturnal activity, right?

 

and this contributes to triggering...not healing

 

I had John make a list of all the horrible things i said to him..

he did....three pages full...

 

and I saved them.....under the title the things I said

 

Every now and then I go back and read them

 

When I do I literally sob myself into complete devastation

 

Is this healing me? or is it a form of self abuse?

 

Do you see the similarities?

 

It is absolutely self abuse....and i do it to "keep myself humble" so I can make sure I stay withing proper boundaries.

 

You are doing this to remind yourself of the horrible things he did and said....and it does not bring healing...it rips the scab off over and over and over again....

 

You WANT to remind yourself and give yourself permission to bleed yet again.

 

Tell me....does any good feeling ever come from doing this to yourself?

[katielee]

Please be easy on yourself for looking at the evidence from time to time. This is a NORMAL REACTION to trauma. You want to occasionally remind yourself of what happened so you can protect yourself. It will ease off, in time.

I kept evidence too. I haven't looked at it in about 2 years.

[merrmeade]

Somebody sent me a PM (which I wish were posted in this thread) after my last post and listed all the issues, reactions, personal qualities that have been brought up here as identical to the past, present and future with the person's spouse. That was a presentation of the status quo as neither great nor tragic. The person emphasized(

1) the gulf between the BS's ability to empathize and the WS's enormous capacity is a reality unlikely to change but a subconscious hope for the BS and

(2) the other intertwined reality of the present with family is rich and fulfilling.

 

Then, reading the two responses to date to my late-night plea to help me understand my need to ruminate, I am back at square one. On the one hand, obviously I see it's destructive. Duh, I'm losing sleep! On the other, I think the rereading keeps my never-ending tendency to hope in check because I conclude yet again: THIS is what he's capable of. Don't sweep it under the rug. DO remind him not to let it out of the cage.

 

I think if I keep my heart full, love myself and feel gratified that I'm the way I am and my life NOW for the most part is pretty good, I can walk by the cage unafraid.

[merrmeade]

PS - I didn't mean to say that those posts weren't helpful. Always. Just that they made me understand the whole picture.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Somebody sent me a PM (which I wish were posted in this thread) after my last post and listed all the issues, reactions, personal qualities that have been brought up here as identical to the past, present and future with the person's spouse. That was a presentation of the status quo as neither great nor tragic. The person emphasized(

1) the gulf between the BS's ability to empathize and the WS's enormous capacity is a reality unlikely to change but a subconscious hope for the BS and

(2) the other intertwined reality of the present with family is rich and fulfilling.

 

Then, reading the two responses to date to my late-night plea to help me understand my need to ruminate, I am back at square one. On the one hand, obviously I see it's destructive. Duh, I'm losing sleep! On the other, I think the rereading keeps my never-ending tendency to hope in check because I conclude yet again: THIS is what he's capable of. Don't sweep it under the rug. DO remind him not to let it out of the cage.

 

I think if I keep my heart full, love myself and feel gratified that I'm the way I am and my life NOW for the most part is pretty good, I can walk by the cage unafraid.

 

Absolutely! But also remind yourself that the rugweeping is not being done by you love. It is being done by HIM.

 

So many betrayed still think THEY have to FIX the wayward.....and the truth is ....they have to FIX THEMSELVES. HE should be the one reading the things he said and did ...not you. He should be the one devastated by his own words.

 

If he is not capable of facing his own demons...you CANNOT FACE THEM FOR HIM.

 

He is responsible for 50% of your relationship....if he shirks that responsibility....you cannot take up his slack. You keep working on you...becoming better. He knows what is required to join you in the journey.

 

Just like it was his choice to cheat....it is his choice to rebuild the damage he has caused.

 

You are an incredible woman....your dedication to your family and even to this man speaks volumes about who you are.

[road]

and this contributes to triggering...not healing

 

I had John make a list of all the horrible things i said to him..

he did....three pages full...

 

and I saved them.....under the title the things I said

 

Every now and then I go back and read them

 

When I do I literally sob myself into complete devastation

 

Is this healing me? or is it a form of self abuse?

 

Do you see the similarities?

 

It is absolutely self abuse....and i do it to "keep myself humble" so I can make sure I stay withing proper boundaries.

 

You are doing this to remind yourself of the horrible things he did and said....and it does not bring healing...it rips the scab off over and over and over again....

 

You WANT to remind yourself and give yourself permission to bleed yet again.

 

Tell me....does any good feeling ever come from doing this to yourself?

 

 

 

A WW saving these things and reading them as a reminder of what she did sounds as a plan to not back slide.

 

 

However the WW as well as the BH need to let these things be forgotten for the healing will never be done.

[Mrs. John Adams]

we are doing just fine road.

 

You and i disagree on a lot of issues. I like to take an active stance in my own recovery. You like to put it all neatly folded in the closet.

 

Whatever works best for you ...is what you should do