When there's no one else to talk to ...

[road]

I'd like to get reflection on something I do in secret that haven't stopped.

 

Initially after Dday I went through all his emails and records. I got a little obsessive and made color-coded, carefully formatted documents many with the same content but with different painstaking ways of organizing or commenting on them. I did the same thing with columns and columns of times and dates of phone calls and emails. I put them in a folder called "Lest I forget...." I have copies of all the emails in my email account under a folder called "Not Just Friends..." along with LS quotes, articles and other affair stuff.

 

Well, here's the confession: Sometimes I go back and read them. I just did and the result is that every time I'm more shocked at how sleezy and manipulative he was and how fawning and in love she was and how secretly negative, hateful and bitter she sounded when they discussed my family, especially my father and brother, her husband — something I never knew. Different things stand out each time about both of them. It makes me hate her more and feel disgusted by him and the lies to everyone, including himself, and sleezy, sleezy effort to build himself up in her eyes. And then I'm more shocked at my lack of disgust and action at the time and obsessive way of dealing everything by carefully labeling and organizing them for posterity.

 

Anybody have any idea wtf I was doing then and am doing now when I feel the need to go back and read them? Sometimes I'm reminded of something during the day that I remember he said to her or vice versa, and I want to go back and look it up again.

 

It's bad. It's counterproductive to everything that I so enthusiastically affirmed in this thread. I cannot ever get rid of them, so don't recommend that. It's my cross. My proof that it happened. Testimony to my horror and his secrets. But I think it's unhealthy, especially when I do that instead of sleeping. I need a good lecture or explanation - some insight so I can get back to living.

 

I think to let it go is to forgive and forget. I think that's why I keep going back and to remind myself of what he was capable of. This is not a good nocturnal activity, right?

 

I can see a BS saving this info for if the WS cheats again, and or recovery is not working and the BS wants a divorce.

 

 

I can see no point in re-reading this material. It only serves to keep the affair memories alive, more pain, and prevents the healing from getting done.

 

 

This material needs to be put under lock and key and left alone. Also there will come a time that it will have to be disposed of before the children find and read it. For we do not live forever.

[katielee]

 

let these things be forgotten for the healing will never be done.

 

Actually, I think this is a recipe for disaster. How do you forget? Do you want to forget? I think it's pretty wise to occasionally remind myself how I broke my husband's heart so I can focus on what is really important in my life and keep that front and center.

[understand50]

OK, but you can never forget what happened. I think keeping a file, may be something you need to lock up, and not obsess about, but I would never advise you to forget what he did. You can't. All you can do is contrast with what he is doing now. What do you have now. He can not undo anything he did, but he can live a life going forward, as much as he is capable of, being a faithful husband.

 

In life we "collect" things. Memories, friendships, loves, hates and enemies. All make us who we are, and are not to be discarded, but used to help us go on in life. Merrmeade, how can you take this "collection" and make it a positive thing? How about reminding yourself, of what you and your husband overcame? My wife asked me onetime, what I really felt about her betrayal, both sexual and financially. I stated it was like a onion. A part hates her what she did. A part really understands what she was going trough. A part accepts her remorse, and sadness, and a part is proud that we both overcame something ugly and now still have a life together.

 

May be you need to see if any good has some how come out of all this, even if it all there is, is showing what a strong and courageous woman you have become. How despite all, your family is together, and you have kept your vows. I think pain can be tempered, by how you act, how you stick to your morals and values, and DRAG those that are lacking along. In the end, ask yourself, is the life you have now worth all the pain that has happened? Can you see things getting better? Is there hope?

 

As always, I wish you luck......

[merrmeade]

OK, but you can never forget what happened. I think keeping a file, may be something you need to lock up, and not obsess about, but I would never advise you to forget what he did. You can't. All you can do is contrast with what he is doing now. What do you have now. He can not undo anything he did, but he can live a life going forward, as much as he is capable of, being a faithful husband.

 

In life we "collect" things. Memories, friendships, loves, hates and enemies. All make us who we are, and are not to be discarded, but used to help us go on in life. Merrmeade, how can you take this "collection" and make it a positive thing? How about reminding yourself, of what you and your husband overcame? My wife asked me onetime, what I really felt about her betrayal, both sexual and financially. I stated it was like a onion. A part hates her what she did. A part really understands what she was going trough. A part accepts her remorse, and sadness, and a part is proud that we both overcame something ugly and now still have a life together.

 

May be you need to see if any good has some how come out of all this, even if it all there is, is showing what a strong and courageous woman you have become. How despite all, your family is together, and you have kept your vows. I think pain can be tempered, by how you act, how you stick to your morals and values, and DRAG those that are lacking along. In the end, ask yourself, is the life you have now worth all the pain that has happened? Can you see things getting better? Is there hope?

 

As always, I wish you luck......

Yep, yep and yep and then some new things - as always, u-50.

 

A couple of thoughts and memories were sparked by this:

One is that I've thought about - "I think pain can be tempered, by how you act, how you stick to your morals and values" - a lot. At first, it was "Well, at least I've got this and will die with this." Then it was, "And this is ALL I have to take to my grave? My freaking integrity?" And now, it's slowly becoming icing on the cake again.

 

Another memory flashed before me when I read " ... and DRAG those that are lacking along." I was sitting in a faculty meeting 20 years ago, hurting because my beloved son was going to help his ill father finish a project abroad. I couldn't stop him. My son was willing to interrupt college to 'save' the family. To stay awake during faculty meetings, I used to doodle my angst into (probably) disturbing images.

- In one, I was a willow tree bent over in despair - my hair, the down-flowing branches. My son held up one of the branches on which sat my husband as a tiny little man with my other two children.

- In another image, my three children and my husband, all the same size, sit happily inside a large cloth that behind me, which I am straining to drag uphill. Facing forward, head down,, holding the ends of the cloth over my shoulder, I am determined to take the next step.

[Cloudcuckoo]

This material needs to be put under lock and key and left alone. Also there will come a time that it will have to be disposed of before the children find and read it. For we do not live forever.

 

^^^^^^

 

This is important.

 

We do not want our children/grandchildren to be subject to finding information to trouble them when we've left this earthly plane do we?

 

I certainly, need to give the disposal of such information deep consideration......

[velvette]

Organizing things is a way of feeling in control either of what you are organizing or just in general imo.

 

 

I don't really think its healthy to keep going over the records you have of your husbands affair. If you want to keep them, I would put them somewhere hard to get to. Maybe just commit to not looking at them for x amount of time and see if you feel better or worse.

 

 

Part of me wonders if you are doing this as a way to hang onto negative feelings regarding your husband so as not to let yourself get too close to him?

 

 

I also meant to say before, that if at all possible I think you should find the $ to go to therapy again if it was helping you. Even if you only go once a month. Cut something else from the budget.....preferably one of hubby's extravagances or not necessary spending...ha!

[merrmeade]

1) the gulf between the BS's ability to empathize and the WS's enormous capacity ...

Oops - that's backwards: BS capacity for empathy is "enormous" compared to WS's who barely registers a ping on the empathy scale according to the PM. And this is a source of frustration and sadness. Just clarifying...

[velvette]

Please be easy on yourself for looking at the evidence from time to time. This is a NORMAL REACTION to trauma. You want to occasionally remind yourself of what happened so you can protect yourself. It will ease off, in time.

I kept evidence too. I haven't looked at it in about 2 years.

 

 

I agree its somewhat normal.

 

 

But, what I think is more important is understanding that you cannot prevent someone else from cheating.

 

 

Its more important to believe that given your experience, you will likely know whether or not your husband is cheating again. They usually don't change their mo and you will pick up on it with or without reviewing current or past evidence.

 

 

The next most important thing to believe is that based on your experience, you will know what to do about it.

[ladydesigner]

Merrmeade I did this too for such a long time until I was finally sick of putting myself through it. I finally deleted EVERYTHING of course my memory reminds me from time to time but I have stopped investigating, checking and verifying, and the lot. All of this sh*t is for my WH to own, he did it he said it and he can keep it!

 

If you can find a way I would try to get rid of any reminders, but that is me

[merrmeade]

We do not want our children/grandchildren to be subject to finding information to trouble them when we've left this earthly plane do we?

No, we don't. I always hated Bridges of Madison County for that reason.

[merrmeade]

Part of me wonders if you are doing this as a way to hang onto negative feelings regarding your husband so as not to let yourself get too close to him?

 

I also meant to say before, that if at all possible I think you should find the $ to go to therapy again if it was helping you. Even if you only go once a month.

I like the once a month suggestion. A little goes a long way for me.

 

And I've wondered the same thing you mention in para 1, but that's the kind of thing that all you can say about it is "part of me wonders." But actually I don't dig the stuff initially to keep my resentment alive. It's nearly always because something has occurred or been said to make me question the story in my head. For a couple of years, I was openly obsessive about getting my life story straight after the revisions required because of his secrets. Maybe it has nothing to do with the affair, but I have to have my memories straight. If different information changes my revised life story, e.g., maybe my dates were wrong, then I have to check and re-revise the story. It's like if I don't know what really happened, there are holes in my story, my life and myself.

[merrmeade]

That wasn't very clear:

 

My husband's had several affairs over the course of our long marriage. When I realized that my memories of the past were incorrect or incomplete, events and relationships took on new meaning. Usually it's a relief, e.g., to realize why certain people or situations felt so uncomfortable, what was really a lie, etc. I think everybody looks on the past differently the older and wiser they get. Well, this is that and then some

[ShatteredLady]

I thought that I was the only person with an all inclusive, color coded, journal with spread sheets of everyday of my life for that year!!

 

For me, it's still very important. I needed a timeline to try to understand. I sat up at night going through every email, text, journal entry, letters to/from friends etc.

 

My H was making me seriously doubt my mind. My timeline is my sanity!

 

It also raises some very interesting issues. His mails, letters to me were beautiful & then suddenly changed 5-6 weeks after he started taking medications (stress, job loss, my near death emergency surgery etc) antidepressants.

 

The things I was saying to friends..."I thought I was better from surgery but I'm feeling so 'alien'. I don't know what it is. I feel like a ghost in my house". In hindsight that's the week he asked her to create a secret account.

 

In many ways it's really helped me to have all of my notes & copies of everything. I've slowly started deleting the messages between them. They were just too painful to keep reading.

 

Thank you for the reminder to eventually get rid of all the 'evidence'. I'd hate my family to find it all if something happened to me.

[merrmeade]

I thought that I was the only person with an all inclusive, color coded, journal with spread sheets of everyday of my life for that year!!

I can't believe somebody else does this either!

[velvette]

I like the once a month suggestion. A little goes a long way for me.

 

And I've wondered the same thing you mention in para 1, but that's the kind of thing that all you can say about it is "part of me wonders." But actually I don't dig the stuff initially to keep my resentment alive. It's nearly always because something has occurred or been said to make me question the story in my head. For a couple of years, I was openly obsessive about getting my life story straight after the revisions required because of his secrets. Maybe it has nothing to do with the affair, but I have to have my memories straight. If different information changes my revised life story, e.g., maybe my dates were wrong, then I have to check and re-revise the story. It's like if I don't know what really happened, there are holes in my story, my life and myself.

 

 

OK, but the end result of rereading things you have saved is that you are stoking your resentment. As you yourself said, it reminds you of how disgusting your husbands behavior was and what he is capable of. You also said something along the lines of hanging onto this stuff keeps you from forgiving and forgetting.

 

 

I get knowing the story of your life. But, the same could be said of any event in your life, yet you are not keeping detailed records of everything that has ever happened are you? I mean lets face it we all look back to certain events and realize we didn't know what we were doing, or that they were not exactly as we perceived at the time. Sometimes its due to age, lack of wisdom/experience/knowledge, sometimes we misjudged others.

 

 

Everyone is different in their need for level of detail. So, I guess that's something you will know when you have had enough of poring over the details.

 

 

At some point I believe it becomes more about living in the past and holding onto hurt as a sort of self protection device, at the expense of not living in the present which is all we ever really have.

 

 

Resentment kills marriages and your own happiness/peace.

[katielee]

I'll have to say, one of the reasons I have kept everything is that I have had to find out everything myself. I had to piece together, in detective fashion, a timeline for myself. If I ever question anything that needs to be referred back to then I need to keep information. In my case there are no emails or texts between them. Just my chicken scratch notes.

Your case may be different. But I still think you should go easy on yourself here.

[understand50]

Keeping information is a good or bad thing depending on how it is used. If it is kept to remind yourself on what, how and why thing happened, then it is of some use. If you just obsess about it and and remain depressed, it is a bad thing, and you are doing yourself harm on re-visiting it.

 

The whole point of reconciliation, is always a two way street. Once you have decided to stay in the marriage, there is a lot of work by the WS to be done, and also much hard work for the BS as well. One huge task to to accept what happened, deal with it in your own way, and then move past it.

 

Again, I am not saying forget and forgive, you will never forget, but you must forgive. Forgiving does not mean let them get away with it. It does not mean you forget what they did or pretend that it never happened, but, for me, it means that I acknowledge, and appreciate how she is treating and acting towards me, now and in the future. She cannot go back and undo the past, but she can strive to live and love in the future. So, she can point to 40 plus year of marital faithfulness, love and companionship. She can point to 8 year responsible money management, and we both can point to a better marriage then 8 years ago. My job, while never forgetting she was and is capable of doing these things, is to build her up, and not hold over her her past actions, if she is maintaining and trying to be a good partner in life. After all, I am in love with her, and so not want to cause her harm.

 

So I pose the questions to katielee, merrmeade, and ShatteredLady.

 

After D-day, has your spouse lived a faithful life, to each other and no one else?

 

Is your relationship, marriage, life better then a year, 5 years, 10 years ago?

 

Is there hope that your spouse will remain faithful and a loving partner?

 

Can you accept what they did to you?

 

Can you deal with your anger towards them, and not let it destroy your present and future?

 

Can you see a path to build a better relationship and marriage, with the one you love?

 

Your collection should be judged on if it helps or hurts you from moving on and reaching your goals. You all need goals for your marriage. Also the impact to the family if it is left to be discovered when you pass should be considered.

 

You all have made the decision that life is better married to your spouse. What type of relationship, marriage, and life with them is up to you and them. Look to see what you can do to further this goal. In many ways you need to lead, and should do so.

 

My two cents.......and good luck to you all.

[katielee]

1o characters...

 

 

"after d-day, has your spouse lived a faithful life, to each other and no one else?" No, there was another affair. There was also some flirting after the second dday. I don't see any of this now. I see more commitment.

 

"Is your relationship, marriage, life better then a year, 5 years, 10 years ago?" A year ago yes!, five years ago, yes!, 10 years ago (before affairs) - it is no different but we have betrayal now... So that lack of trust kind of makes it harder. We have more fun now though, because the kids are off the dime and we can spend that money on us. As far as being more emotionally connected - that part is worse. Although he is really good at a lot of other things.

 

"Is there hope that your spouse will remain faithful and a loving partner?" Yes!

 

"Can you accept what they did to you?" It has been more difficult to accept the limited self inquiry. That's the part that makes them a safe partner.

 

"Can you deal with your anger towards them, and not let it destroy your present and future?" Oh yeah.. That is becoming easier. Can't remember the last time i had an angry outburst.

 

" Can you see a path to build a better relationship and marriage, with the one you love?" I can see it growing better and being very good! But i do not see it meeting my needs in the way mermmeade has explained about her marriage. I will have to get some of those needs met with girlfriends and family.

 

"Your collection should be judged on if it helps or hurts you from moving on and reaching your goals. You all need goals for your marriage." My goal is to have a very good marriage with emotional intimacy, family fun, financial freedom and a plan for the future. The emotional part is not happening with this guy. The other stuff is very good.

"Also the impact to the family if it is left to be discovered when you pass should be considered". Really not worried about this. And my kids all know anyway.

 

"You all have made the decision that life is better married to your spouse" Yep.

"What type of relationship, marriage, and life with them is up to you and them. Look to see what you can do to further this goal. In many ways you need to lead, and should do so." I can do my part. I love and respect the parts he contributes to.

 

.

[ladydesigner]

OK, but the end result of rereading things you have saved is that you are stoking your resentment. As you yourself said, it reminds you of how disgusting your husbands behavior was and what he is capable of. You also said something along the lines of hanging onto this stuff keeps you from forgiving and forgetting.

 

 

I get knowing the story of your life. But, the same could be said of any event in your life, yet you are not keeping detailed records of everything that has ever happened are you? I mean lets face it we all look back to certain events and realize we didn't know what we were doing, or that they were not exactly as we perceived at the time. Sometimes its due to age, lack of wisdom/experience/knowledge, sometimes we misjudged others.

 

 

Everyone is different in their need for level of detail. So, I guess that's something you will know when you have had enough of poring over the details.

 

 

At some point I believe it becomes more about living in the past and holding onto hurt as a sort of self protection device, at the expense of not living in the present which is all we ever really have.

 

 

Resentment kills marriages and your own happiness/peace.

 

For me more than anything else it was killing my happiness and peace, forget my WH

[merrmeade]

Thank you, understand50! This whole exercise became a bit of a eureka moment (once I parsed and labeled so it wasn’t wreaking havoc with my visual/mental challenges)!

 

I could not make head not tail of katielee’s answer once it was gobbled in the italics of the Quote, so I reformatted, adding our responses. The result is u-50’s questions and comments labeled and bolded followed by kl and mm responses. Sl, feel free to add yours (or not ). This is just what I needed to do before I could even get my head around it.

 

Below - understand50’s list of questions posed to kl, mm and sl, numbered, followed by kl & mm responses:

 

Question 1:

After D-day, has your spouse lived a faithful life, to each other and no one else?

Kl - No, there was another affair. There was also some flirting after the second dday. I don't see any of this now. I see more commitment.*

 

Mm – Yes, no doubt about it. Perfect record after the No Contact letter. No doubt about it.

 

Question 2:

Is your relationship, marriage, life better then a year, 5 years, 10 years ago?*

Kl - A year ago yes!, five years ago, yes!, 10 years ago (before affairs) - it is no different but we have betrayal now... So that lack of trust kind of makes it harder. We have more fun now though, because the kids are off the dime and we can spend that money on us. As far as being more emotionally connected - that part is worse. Although he is really good at a lot of other things.*

 

Mm – Yes and damn good question.

 

Question 3:

Is there hope that your spouse will remain faithful and a loving partner?*

Kl - Yes!*

 

Mm – Yes, I really never doubted this. The only caveat I’m realizing is that now I’m the one that wants more. Not “more” as in more men, but more from my partner. I mean, I “settled” a long time ago. The aftermath of the affairs, marriage and individual counseling, LS all made me re-examine SO many things about us and our marriage. I unwrapped my standards, ideals and personal potential and, well, I always wanted more but never did and never will get it. My follow-up question to myself is what, if anything, do I want to do about this?

 

Question 4:

Can you accept what they did to you?*

Kl - It has been more difficult to accept the limited self inquiry. That's the part that makes them a safe partner.*

 

Mm – Ditto and underscore kl’s answer.

 

Question 5:

Can you deal with your anger towards them, and not let it destroy your present and future?*

 

Kl - Oh yeah.. That is becoming easier. Can't remember the last time i had an angry outburst.*

 

Mm – I only had 1 or 2 angry outbursts and they were not even in person. They were on a phone call and in an email. He calls my teachery explanations of what he did, what it was, etc. angry but I think that’s just because they make him squirm. I probably have too much control, however, and SHOULD have had more angry outbursts, open weeping and all the rest.

 

But outbursts isn’t even in the question. The question also includes the anger inside, and that’s proven harder. But, yes, I will begrudgingly concede that reading the affair stuff doesn’t help at all.

 

Question 6:

Can you see a path to build a better relationship and marriage, with the one you love?*

 

kl - I can see it growing better and being very good! But i do not see it meeting my needs in the way mermmeade has explained about her marriage. I will have to get some of those needs met with girlfriends and family.*

 

Mm – I think so. I’m also realizing some things myself and squirming. I’m thinking – Well, we could try MC again but not dwell on the past. – It makes me squirm because that would mean we’re on an equal footing and we talk about both our deficits in the present. Harrumph.

 

understand50’s comments labeled Para 1 and Para 2, followed by kl, mm responses:

 

Para 1a -

Your collection should be judged on if it helps or hurts you from moving on and reaching your goals. You all need goals for your marriage. *

Kl - My goal is to have a very good marriage with emotional intimacy, family fun, financial freedom and a plan for the future. The emotional part is not happening with this guy. The other stuff is very good.

 

Mm – Ditto verbatim kl’s response PLUS want more effort on his part to open up. This means (more squirming) owning up that I need to work harder to make HIM feel safe (inner resistance, squirming again)

 

Para 1b:

Also the impact to the family if it is left to be discovered when you pass should be considered.

Kl - Really not worried about this. And my kids all know anyway.*

 

Mm – Thinking about this one some more … As kl said, they all know though I’ve never REALLY felt they totally ‘got it’ except for my daughter. I selfishly wanted more outrage on my – and their – behalf. The boys’ need to be loyal to their father sort of niggled me. Like I said – selfishly. No need for lectures here; I understand.

 

My case is complicated with the other As with other family members and friends (yeah, a real piece of work he was). There were two women they know and love – (one before she became family) and another old friend of the family – that they don’t know about (daughter knows about the friend and may have told them). They don’t realize, haven’t even conceived of the possibility, that their father had sexual interests and relations that broke social mores. They only know about the most recent – one A with one aunt. As of now, they partially feel sorry for him and blame the fact that I left him alone financially and medically challenged for so long.

 

That’s just what they know and I’ve let that be. Do they need to know about the others? Do they need to know the truth about him? I struggle with this from time to time but usually my mother side wins out to protect them from the general bad influence of knowing that such behavior is possible within their family. I think that bad behavior in someone you love has a way of giving you permission to try a little yourself whether in the far distant future or now. Why give them more evidence of what they’ve already seen? I don’t know….

 

Para 2a

You all have made the decision that life is better married to your spouse.

Kl - Yep.

 

Mm – Yes, I have

 

Para 2b

What type of relationship, marriage, and life with them is up to you and them. Look to see what you can do to further this goal. In many ways you need to lead, and should do so.*

 

Kl - I can do my part. I love and respect the parts he contributes to.

 

Mm – I realize that forgiving is not that simple. You’re not granting full pardon (what a contradiction in terms anyway - even for bona fide felons) because that would mean wiping clean, expungement of his record, yet we all agree there is no forgetting. So the forgiving but not forgetting is still kind of tricky for me. I want to but am not clear how to separate. And don’t make too much of my half-joking references to squirming because this is valid reason to squirm, imo.

 

But I confess the other part of my squirming is that I don’t like how he sees my efforts to be his peer. It’s always felt like he assumed he deserves it and it’s about time. I don’t know – still thinking….

[katielee]

thank you merrmeade - sorry I screwed that up!! I typed it all up and then kind of forgot how to do it.

[merrmeade]

thank you merrmeade - sorry I screwed that up!! I typed it all up and then kind of forgot how to do it.

No, I'm just not able to "see" the information unless I do that.** Other people have no problem.

 

**also compulsive

[merrmeade]

I know already that some will come back and say that they should know about all of them because it bothers me and because they have a right to know. They will say they are adults and mostly have their personal mores set.

 

All true. BUT telling them about the other aunt and friend requires a huge, HUGE leap for my husband. He will perceive it as the one disclosure he did everything he could to avoid - even lying to me for two years about it. He will see it as my breaking a pledge that - if he told me all, I would tell no one. BUT he did not tell me "all" as I'd asked and as was the condition of the pledge. Therefore, the pledge is null and void, EXCEPT that I don't particularly WANT to create a new, nasty hullaballoo about something I'm not even sure is good for the recipients either. That's the catch-22.

[merrmeade]

I know already that some will come back and say that they should know about all of them ...

they = our children

them = the As

[66Charger]

That was interesting. Wish you had included Shattered. For those that dont know, the time line would be helpfull.

 

What is amazing is that the hope is still very much alive. Your WS are damn lucky.