Update after .. 10+ years!

[Hard2Think]

Kudos for saying something...but I see tons of conflict avoidance here...

 

Are you ending the marriage? Are you divorcing? Are you opening yourself up to meet other women? Have you already engaged with another woman? What about finances? WHat if she does come to visit? WIll she stay with you? Is she expected to remain faithful? Are you?

 

WHat you explained above doesn't sound like you were very clear with your wife about your intentions...And by inviting her to be with you, well, you've left that open to all sorts of interpretation, including that you are still very much married.

 

I find your conversation vague at best. As will your wife.

 

I think someone else before me also asked the questions:

 

Are you divorcing; and have you remained faithful?

Fair enough. No, I didn't make it explicitly clear. I don't think there's a need to right now. I don't have a long term plan here. I simply don't feel like coming back there anymore.

 

Sure, if she finds another guy now, I would be in no position to object. If she wants a divorce, who can blame her?

 

I'm sure I'll know what the next steps are once I've made this one.

[Hard2Think]

IMO, it is just realistic to expect that the sex won't be like 20 something wall banging sex all the time in a long term marriage.

 

.

 

That's not what I was saying. I thought I was saying that she found it boring after awhile. Hey, I always would have been good with regular sex 3x a week.

[Hard2Think]

I commend you for making it work for your kids. We have to pick both our battles and our goals in life. It would be nice to think we could have it all - successful career, happy family, passionate marriage, etc - but at some point most realize you have to prioritize some above others, cost and benefit. Sounds like, having dug yourself a hole, you chose a realistic way out. Doesn't sound to me like those post affair years were "wasted".

 

Like others, I'm confused by your present status ? The vagueness of your position - separated? divorcing? taking a break? - seems to conflict with the urgency you stated regarding not "having much more time to waste."...

 

Mr. Lucky

Thanks, Mr. Lucky. No, no urgency. Just that at this point, life is too short to be somewhere I don't want to be with someone I don't really feel I need to be with.

[Mr. Lucky]

Thanks, Mr. Lucky. No, no urgency. Just that at this point, life is too short to be somewhere I don't want to be with someone I don't really feel I need to be with.

 

Understood and like I said, to me you've more than fulfilled your commitment. But I'm assuming everyone involved, sooner rather than later, will want some clarity as far as financial support, exclusivity, legal arrangements, etc. Once the "D" word is on the table, you'd be amazed at how quickly things can change.

 

Have you told kids, friends and family members?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Hard2Think]

All in all, I think my wife acted pretty well given what I did. She didn't tell the kids even to this day. She didn't try to track down the OW and make a huge scene. She didn't out me to everyone we knew (only a select few, but that's to be expected). And as much as she could she forgave me.

 

But there are some things I wish she would have done. After the requisite amount of time, of course ..

 

I really wish she would have told me why the sex went so far downhill after the kids were born. I would love to know why she thought it was OK to treat me with such disdain and for so many years. She did let it slip once that back then, at some point, she thought she didn't love me anymore; this would have been before the A started. I tried to ask her why she didn't say anything to me at the time ..and she said "what was the point?". I responded that the point would be to at least let me know what I'm dealing with. But I realized that in her mind, it was no point for her to say anything.

 

She already had stability, a decent job, and I was taking care of things. That's my interpretation, anyway. And that's all I have to go on because she wouldn't elaborate further and has clammed up on the subject since. So to this day I have no idea what was going through her haed during those times and frankly I have no idea what she was thinking when things dried up again. So yes, I wish I could have had an answer to my questions.

 

While sometimes I feel bad for leaving her as I'll often remember the good times. I only have to think of the years I lived in a way that was completely unnecessary an uncalled for. I remember stopping the car around the corner before coming home because I needed to gather myself and brace myself for what I knew would be a barrage of criticism of some sort or another. I remember her yelling at me because some lady's husband took her on a Hawaiian cruise or something for her birthday and I didn't. Why did I have to live that way? It could have been so different? And so what? It's all supposed to be nice now? I can't do it.

 

The reality is that nothing can be done now. We can't redo the past. There's no possible way to fix anything anymore. It's simply too late.

[Ladyjane14]

All in all, I think my wife acted pretty well given what I did. She didn't tell the kids even to this day. She didn't try to track down the OW and make a huge scene. She didn't out me to everyone we knew (only a select few, but that's to be expected). And as much as she could she forgave me.

 

But there are some things I wish she would have done. After the requisite amount of time, of course ..

 

I really wish she would have told me why the sex went so far downhill after the kids were born. I would love to know why she thought it was OK to treat me with such disdain and for so many years. She did let it slip once that back then, at some point, she thought she didn't love me anymore; this would have been before the A started. I tried to ask her why she didn't say anything to me at the time ..and she said "what was the point?". I responded that the point would be to at least let me know what I'm dealing with. But I realized that in her mind, it was no point for her to say anything.

 

She already had stability, a decent job, and I was taking care of things. That's my interpretation, anyway. And that's all I have to go on because she wouldn't elaborate further and has clammed up on the subject since. So to this day I have no idea what was going through her haed during those times and frankly I have no idea what she was thinking when things dried up again. So yes, I wish I could have had an answer to my questions.

 

While sometimes I feel bad for leaving her as I'll often remember the good times. I only have to think of the years I lived in a way that was completely unnecessary an uncalled for. I remember stopping the car around the corner before coming home because I needed to gather myself and brace myself for what I knew would be a barrage of criticism of some sort or another. I remember her yelling at me because some lady's husband took her on a Hawaiian cruise or something for her birthday and I didn't. Why did I have to live that way? It could have been so different? And so what? It's all supposed to be nice now? I can't do it.

 

The reality is that nothing can be done now. We can't redo the past. There's no possible way to fix anything anymore. It's simply too late.

 

Would you fix it if you could?.. or are you truly content with your current course?

 

You know, either way, you can still ask those questions of her, about why she behaved in certain ways and about why she lost interest in sex at times. I can tell you from my own experience of being female, that it's not at all unusual for a woman's libido to go up and down over the years. We've got twenty times LESS testosterone than the guys do. Pregnancy, child care, menstrual cycles, perimenopause, actual menopause, vitamin deficiencies, thyroid issues, you name it... it doesn't take much to put us off-kilter. So, if she says "it's not you, it's me" you can probably believe her.

 

You know, when I read your posts, I see so much perception and so little emotional security. Sometimes I wonder if marriage counselors are all full of crap. They give us all these little platitudes and exercises, but they never just come right out and TELL us where we're screwing up. At least that's been my experience anyway.

 

If you're game for one more book... try John Gottman's What Makes Love Last. He's got one chapter in there on figuring out when it's time to pull the plug as well as another interesting chapter on sexual intimacy. I like him because he's more scientific in his research. And if nothing else, it'll help you to not make mistakes in any possible future relationships.

 

Thanks for posting. It's really got me started thinking about perception in a different light. I think most of us are guilty of conflict avoidance from time to time. We think if we've explained ourselves, we've cleared those perceptions up. But I'm finding that they persist, and while I'm still mulling it over, I don't think that simply "communicating" more effectively is the answer. I think we have to challenge our own perceptions more often, and maybe even lay our ears back and INSIST that our partners confront their own every now and then.

[bathtub-row]

As my xMM loves to say these days, "There are only so many shopping days 'til Christmas." What he means is that his sexual life is dwindling fast and nothing has changed in his marriage. What a shock. Well he made his choices so there's always that.

 

I think you're trying to tell others in similar situations to stop spinning their wheels and get the hell out while you still have a life to live. However, a lot of people will defend marriage for marriage's sake and not hear a word you say. My advice would be similar to yours: leave a lousy marriage and go for the person you want to be with. Having an affair screws it all up.

 

OP, you're still young enough to have a fulfilling relationship. Don't write it off yet. So..., crazy question but have you considered contacting the woman you loved so much all those years ago?

[Hard2Think]

Would you fix it if you could?.. or are you truly content with your current course?

 

You know, either way, you can still ask those questions of her, about why she behaved in certain ways and about why she lost interest in sex at times. I can tell you from my own experience of being female, that it's not at all unusual for a woman's libido to go up and down over the years. We've got twenty times LESS testosterone than the guys do. Pregnancy, child care, menstrual cycles, perimenopause, actual menopause, vitamin deficiencies, thyroid issues, you name it... it doesn't take much to put us off-kilter. So, if she says "it's not you, it's me" you can probably believe her.

 

You know, when I read your posts, I see so much perception and so little emotional security. Sometimes I wonder if marriage counselors are all full of crap. They give us all these little platitudes and exercises, but they never just come right out and TELL us where we're screwing up. At least that's been my experience anyway.

 

If you're game for one more book... try John Gottman's What Makes Love Last. He's got one chapter in there on figuring out when it's time to pull the plug as well as another interesting chapter on sexual intimacy. I like him because he's more scientific in his research. And if nothing else, it'll help you to not make mistakes in any possible future relationships.

 

Thanks for posting. It's really got me started thinking about perception in a different light. I think most of us are guilty of conflict avoidance from time to time. We think if we've explained ourselves, we've cleared those perceptions up. But I'm finding that they persist, and while I'm still mulling it over, I don't think that simply "communicating" more effectively is the answer. I think we have to challenge our own perceptions more often, and maybe even lay our ears back and INSIST that our partners confront their own every now and then.

Would I fix it if I could? That's just not possible now, no matter what she does or what I do. Time has passed. If I could go back in time and fix it - yes sure. But now I can't. There was a time for us to have a good relationship. That's what serves as a foundation for the rest, IMO.

 

I met W when I was 22 years old. We were off to a good start on our marriage. We were crazy about each other, we travelled all over, and we started stone broke. She was (and still is) a stunningly beautiful woman. She had very wealthy boyfriends older than her who would spend tons of money on her. She left them to be with me .. broke and young. I admire that ultimately she didn't care about the money of the comforts of wealth to be with me.

 

The way I envisioned it, we would have faced the trials and tribulations together that come with careers, a new house, raising children, all while keeping it together by love and trust. And yes, a strong sexual bond. The kids move away, we retire, we move, and as our beodies decay and the intimacy bevomes less frequent, we could almost laugh about it. I would accept it better because we took full advantage of the time that was given to us.

 

Instead, she chose to treat me poorly, deny us intimacy, and make my life difficult for no apparent reason. I destroyed any potential happy narrative of our marriage by sleeping with and professing my love to another.

 

So what can we do now? I can't undo the cheating. She can't redo the story of our marriage. Now that the children are gone, the only reason I think I should stay with her is if I want to be with her for the rest of my life. I don't see myself walking off into the sunset of life with someone who never truly lived it with me. Sure, we raised the kids well, we accumulated wealth, we travelled. But looking back, this feels like a partnership. I shouldered most of the hard parts on my own. She wasn't nice then, I don't care if suddenly she wants to make nice now.

 

I don't want to make her out to be a bad person, because she's not. She had her agenda, and I guess I had mine. Thankfully we both proiritized the kids and that turned out well. It's the only reason I don't consider the time I stayed on as a waste.

 

That said, up until last week, I was on the fence about leaving her. Back and forth in my mind. But here's the spark that got me off my chair and out the door: We were having a conversation about something having to do with the fact that as she gets older she only likes the best wines and the best hotels or something like that. Then she mentioned something about one of her rich boyfriends from way back when. She made a comment like "I was a wild girl back then, they couldn't keep up with me in bed". Maybe we had a glass of wine or tow by then, so I asked her "That's nice for them. What happened to that wild girl? I haven't seen her in over 20 years!". So she said something to the effect of that was along time ago. Asked her "I suppose you had oral sex with them, right?" She responded "I did everyting, but that was so long ago. I was 20". So here I was, her husband. I'm the stupid guy that supported her all these years and stuck with her despite everything. And yet I was give scraps all these years. The next day is when I decided to leave.

 

By itself the comment would have been no big deal. If we had enjoyed a great sex life all these years, we would have laughed about it. But given the way it really was, the comment was far from humorous. That fact cannot be undone.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Hard2Think

[Liam1]

 

That said, up until last week, I was on the fence about leaving her. Back and forth in my mind. But here's the spark that got me off my chair and out the door: We were having a conversation about something having to do with the fact that as she gets older she only likes the best wines and the best hotels or something like that. Then she mentioned something about one of her rich boyfriends from way back when. She made a comment like "I was a wild girl back then, they couldn't keep up with me in bed". Maybe we had a glass of wine or tow by then, so I asked her "That's nice for them. What happened to that wild girl? I haven't seen her in over 20 years!". So she said something to the effect of that was along time ago. Asked her "I suppose you had oral sex with them, right?" She responded "I did everyting, but that was so long ago. I was 20". So here I was, her husband. I'm the stupid guy that supported her all these years and stuck with her despite everything. And yet I was give scraps all these years. The next day is when I decided to leave.

 

By itself the comment would have been no big deal. If we had enjoyed a great sex life all these years, we would have laughed about it. But given the way it really was, the comment was far from humorous. That fact cannot be undone.

 

Hard2think:

 

IMO, you need to calm down a bit and think this out more, so, you don't do something that causes so much harm to your marriage that it can not be undone.

 

IMO, most women lose interest in sex after marriage. I am not sure why. But I hear even young men complaining about this, so it is not just about aging.

 

I think women fail to understand that for men sex is about intimacy and feeling desired. Fewer women need sex to feel desired, IMO.

 

Also, if your wife has been snarky due to your affair, well that is normal. She does at some point need to get past it. So maybe join an infidelity group like Beyond affairs network (BAN) to facilitate discussion and open mindedness about this.

 

After my affair, my wife told me that had I asked for a divorce, she would have been far less likely to reconcile.

 

She said that hearing me ask for a divorce would convince her that I was no longer in love with her.

 

The affair, to her, was less traumatic, in her own words, than a request for a divorce would have been.

 

IMO, throwing the divorce word around is very damaging to a relationship and creates insecurity and distrust that is very difficult to repair.

 

So, IMO, calm down, think things through and tread carefully.

 

With that said, I don't live inside your marriage, so I can not completely comprehend what it is that is upsetting you so much. Therefore, if after careful contemplation a divorce seems to be your only option, then you need to do what feels right.

 

Staying married when you feel this way is not healthy for your or your wife.

[Ladyjane14]

Would I fix it if I could? That's just not possible now, no matter what she does or what I do. Time has passed. If I could go back in time and fix it - yes sure. But now I can't. There was a time for us to have a good relationship. That's what serves as a foundation for the rest, IMO.

 

I met W when I was 22 years old. We were off to a good start on our marriage. We were crazy about each other, we travelled all over, and we started stone broke. She was (and still is) a stunningly beautiful woman. She had very wealthy boyfriends older than her who would spend tons of money on her. She left them to be with me .. broke and young. I admire that ultimately she didn't care about the money of the comforts of wealth to be with me.

 

The way I envisioned it, we would have faced the trials and tribulations together that come with careers, a new house, raising children, all while keeping it together by love and trust. And yes, a strong sexual bond. The kids move away, we retire, we move, and as our beodies decay and the intimacy bevomes less frequent, we could almost laugh about it. I would accept it better because we took full advantage of the time that was given to us.

 

Instead, she chose to treat me poorly, deny us intimacy, and make my life difficult for no apparent reason. I destroyed any potential happy narrative of our marriage by sleeping with and professing my love to another.

 

So what can we do now? I can't undo the cheating. She can't redo the story of our marriage. Now that the children are gone, the only reason I think I should stay with her is if I want to be with her for the rest of my life. I don't see myself walking off into the sunset of life with someone who never truly lived it with me. Sure, we raised the kids well, we accumulated wealth, we travelled. But looking back, this feels like a partnership. I shouldered most of the hard parts on my own. She wasn't nice then, I don't care if suddenly she wants to make nice now.

 

I don't want to make her out to be a bad person, because she's not. She had her agenda, and I guess I had mine. Thankfully we both proiritized the kids and that turned out well. It's the only reason I don't consider the time I stayed on as a waste.

 

That said, up until last week, I was on the fence about leaving her. Back and forth in my mind. But here's the spark that got me off my chair and out the door: We were having a conversation about something having to do with the fact that as she gets older she only likes the best wines and the best hotels or something like that. Then she mentioned something about one of her rich boyfriends from way back when. She made a comment like "I was a wild girl back then, they couldn't keep up with me in bed". Maybe we had a glass of wine or tow by then, so I asked her "That's nice for them. What happened to that wild girl? I haven't seen her in over 20 years!". So she said something to the effect of that was along time ago. Asked her "I suppose you had oral sex with them, right?" She responded "I did everyting, but that was so long ago. I was 20". So here I was, her husband. I'm the stupid guy that supported her all these years and stuck with her despite everything. And yet I was give scraps all these years. The next day is when I decided to leave.

 

By itself the comment would have been no big deal. If we had enjoyed a great sex life all these years, we would have laughed about it. But given the way it really was, the comment was far from humorous. That fact cannot be undone.

 

After that comment, did you talk to her about how it made you feel?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to influence your decision. You've been clean for 10 years now and it's still not working. But I really am curious about those dynamics. You're helping me this time.

 

Every relationship goes through this constant cycle of harmony, disillusionment, and repair. When something happens which prevents repair, as Gottman puts it.. we end up "in the Roach Motel for Lovers". So, what was the dynamic that threw a monkey wrench into repair efforts whenever you two would have a period of disillusionment?

 

Did you feel like your perceptions regarding one another were entrenched? Did you feel that you had been truly forgiven? Did you forgive her for her faults? Did you forgive yourself for your own?

 

Like I said earlier, there's something elusive about how perception affects relationships that's on my mind lately.

[veryhappy]

It sounds to me that after you had moved to the big city and your wife was desiring you, you would have assessed yourself as happily married and successfully reconciled.

 

 

What you are writing about your marriage -without going back to your old posts- seems to be more about your marriage than about a third person destroying a strong bond. You were insecure most of your marriage about whether you were enough (cruises and all) and whether you were loved (repeated rejection destroys). I don't think it was only the physical hurting you, I think you felt emotionally unheard, and that's what makes you feel so done now.

 

 

If you end up divorced, you can look up your ex ow and apologize for leading her on. I don't suggest starting anything, as she clearly meant not enough for you, but she may still benefit from an apology if she wants to hear from you. Being cut off and thrown away like garbage after talks of eternal bliss is very traumatizing.

[Hard2Think]

After that comment, did you talk to her about how it made you feel?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to influence your decision. You've been clean for 10 years now and it's still not working. But I really am curious about those dynamics. You're helping me this time.

 

Every relationship goes through this constant cycle of harmony, disillusionment, and repair. When something happens which prevents repair, as Gottman puts it.. we end up "in the Roach Motel for Lovers". So, what was the dynamic that threw a monkey wrench into repair efforts whenever you two would have a period of disillusionment?

 

Did you feel like your perceptions regarding one another were entrenched? Did you feel that you had been truly forgiven? Did you forgive her for her faults? Did you forgive yourself for your own?

 

Like I said earlier, there's something elusive about how perception affects relationships that's on my mind lately.

 

Yes of course I told her how I felt. Again, it's wasn't the comment itself that was a problem. Frankly, I don't care what she did or didn't do with boyfriends before she me. It was the comment in this context: I was the one who committed myself to her not them, so then why did I get so much less after awhile? I told her that. She denies it.

 

To answer your questions:

 

The only real monkey wrench anyone can point to in our marriage is my affair. It was the one undenialbe, cataclysmic act that has a beginning, an end, a label, and actions associated with it. You can point to it; "there" is the affair right there. The things that my wife did are more elusive and slippery. She has made many small cuts from years of denial, snide comments, put-downs, etc. I can point to any one of them as they happen, but they seem so minor individually without including it with the rest of them over the years. Over time, there's no event to point to but I would argue that this is every bit as destructive, if not more than an A. The difficulty is that there is nothing to look back on and point to. "You criticize me for something or another every other day and have done so for years" - "No I haven't. You're blowing things out of proportion again". So in my case, the A was an explosion. Her actions were daily pin-pricks.

 

I don't know that we had entrenched pereceptions or not. I don't know what entrenched perceptions she may have about me right now. She doesn't share that, so I would only be guessing. Looking back, perceptions did matter in my going forward with an A. I thought she didn't love me (maybe she didn't). I also thought that she imagined that I had no other choice but deal with what she was dishing out (maybe she didn't think that at all). My A was started by some complicated thoughts. To be fair, I was at risk for an affair even if the marriage was perfect. Especially when I was younger, women just liked me. I enjoyed validation from that and I was often very tempted to have an A. In a few cases, I came dangerously close. It was always a real mental struggle not to succumb. But when the marriage was good and later when the kids were young, I was able to restrain myself. But later, when things got bad, and especially when I thought that she assumed I had no other options (my perception), I gave myself permission to go ahead. Part of of it was to "show her". When she found out about the A, I was very surprised she took it as hard as she did. I really thought she didn't care (my perception).

 

Do I feel forgiven. No. Do I forgive her? It's hard to when she doesn't admit to any of it. If she did, I would readily forgive her. I do forgive myself. I did a long time ago.

[Hard2Think]

..

 

What you are writing about your marriage -without going back to your old posts- seems to be more about your marriage than about a third person destroying a strong bond. You were insecure most of your marriage about whether you were enough (cruises and all) and whether you were loved (repeated rejection destroys). I don't think it was only the physical hurting you, I think you felt emotionally unheard, and that's what makes you feel so done now.

 

..

 

I think that's very perceptive. I never thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. I'd say you nailed it.

[Ladyjane14]

Yes of course I told her how I felt. Again, it's wasn't the comment itself that was a problem. Frankly, I don't care what she did or didn't do with boyfriends before she me. It was the comment in this context: I was the one who committed myself to her not them, so then why did I get so much less after awhile? I told her that. She denies it.

 

To answer your questions:

 

The only real monkey wrench anyone can point to in our marriage is my affair. It was the one undenialbe, cataclysmic act that has a beginning, an end, a label, and actions associated with it. You can point to it; "there" is the affair right there. The things that my wife did are more elusive and slippery. She has made many small cuts from years of denial, snide comments, put-downs, etc. I can point to any one of them as they happen, but they seem so minor individually without including it with the rest of them over the years. Over time, there's no event to point to but I would argue that this is every bit as destructive, if not more than an A. The difficulty is that there is nothing to look back on and point to. "You criticize me for something or another every other day and have done so for years" - "No I haven't. You're blowing things out of proportion again". So in my case, the A was an explosion. Her actions were daily pin-pricks.

 

I don't know that we had entrenched pereceptions or not. I don't know what entrenched perceptions she may have about me right now. She doesn't share that, so I would only be guessing. Looking back, perceptions did matter in my going forward with an A. I thought she didn't love me (maybe she didn't). I also thought that she imagined that I had no other choice but deal with what she was dishing out (maybe she didn't think that at all). My A was started by some complicated thoughts. To be fair, I was at risk for an affair even if the marriage was perfect. Especially when I was younger, women just liked me. I enjoyed validation from that and I was often very tempted to have an A. In a few cases, I came dangerously close. It was always a real mental struggle not to succumb. But when the marriage was good and later when the kids were young, I was able to restrain myself. But later, when things got bad, and especially when I thought that she assumed I had no other options (my perception), I gave myself permission to go ahead. Part of of it was to "show her". When she found out about the A, I was very surprised she took it as hard as she did. I really thought she didn't care (my perception).

 

Do I feel forgiven. No. Do I forgive her? It's hard to when she doesn't admit to any of it. If she did, I would readily forgive her. I do forgive myself. I did a long time ago.

 

Why did you not believe her denials or explanations? It almost sounds like your perceptions of her stayed the same after the affair as before it... feeling criticized, feeling unloved, feeling that she didn't care, and her repair attempts rejected as not believable.

 

Sorry to be so persistent, but there are similarities in what you're saying that leave me quite disheartened in my own situation. Certainly, she must've believed that wall was down.. but it wasn't. So, how does one know when it actually is down?.. when the repairs have been accepted and the pre-affair perceptions are really gone?

[bathtub-row]

I personally don't think it's normal for a person to lose interest in sex once they're married. That is SUCH a cop-out excuse. Her comment about the other guys, having oral sex, and not being able to keep up with her in bed were really thoughtless remarks on her part. People should give the best of themselves to their spouse. If they don't want to, I don't understand what the point is of marriage.

[Ladyjane14]

I personally don't think it's normal for a person to lose interest in sex once they're married. That is SUCH a cop-out excuse. Her comment about the other guys, having oral sex, and not being able to keep up with her in bed were really thoughtless remarks on her part. People should give the best of themselves to their spouse. If they don't want to, I don't understand what the point is of marriage.

 

Are you married?.. 10 years?.. 20?... 30???

Thirty years is a long time to be with someone and never say or do anything to disappoint them and vice versa. Guess how I know.

[Liam1]

Do I feel forgiven. No. Do I forgive her? It's hard to when she doesn't admit to any of it. If she did, I would readily forgive her. I do forgive myself. I did a long time ago.

 

Well, there in a nutshell is why your reconciliation is failing.

 

IMO, when there is resentment in the marriage, it is caused by the actions of both spouses.

 

If one spouse refuses to acknowledge their own failing while placing all the blame on the unfaithful spouse, IMO, the reconciliation is destined to fail.

 

My reconciliation is ONLY working well because my wife was willing to acknowledge that unilaterally deciding that sex was no longer an important part of our marriage or any marriage was just as destructive as my affair.

 

Blameshifting can go both ways during a reconciliation, and it is never productive. Both spouses need to acknowledge their failings.

[bathtub-row]

Are you married?.. 10 years?.. 20?... 30???

Thirty years is a long time to be with someone and never say or do anything to disappoint them and vice versa. Guess how I know.

 

I have been in a long-term marriage and I get it that things change. But from what OP is saying, the sex dropped off from the very beginning, and it seems she did things with other guys that she wouldn't do with him. Also even if things do slow down a bit, that doesn't mean it's ok to stop having sex completely or once a year. That's what I'm saying is a cop-out. Of course her remark pissed him off.

[Hard2Think]

Why did you not believe her denials or explanations? It almost sounds like your perceptions of her stayed the same after the affair as before it... feeling criticized, feeling unloved, feeling that she didn't care, and her repair attempts rejected as not believable.

 

Sorry to be so persistent, but there are similarities in what you're saying that leave me quite disheartened in my own situation. Certainly, she must've believed that wall was down.. but it wasn't. So, how does one know when it actually is down?.. when the repairs have been accepted and the pre-affair perceptions are really gone?

 

When she denied making nasty remarks to me or being otherwise deliberately unpleasant, I don't believe her because her denial goes contrary to my own experience. My perceptions of being criticized are not that subjective. The criticism and unpleasantness is quite obvious. I don't think this is one of these things where one person was trying to be nice and other perceived it as being mean. The lack of sex is quantifiable. There is no room for doubt here. Yes, I agree that she made attempts to have sex more often but I could see it wasn't coming from desire. That's not her fault. It's just the way she feels about it and I really do think it's too much to ask of someone to make themselves want it. As far as the crappy behavior, that is something she could rectify if she wanted to.

 

I never thought of myself as having walls up. But I guess over time I've accumulated resentment. There is nothing I can think of that she could do now that would change that. Years ago, she could have stopped treating me as she did, she could have stopped using the affair as a billy-club, and she could have been straight with me about the problem with our sex life.

 

I don't know if that helps your thinking on your situation ..

Edited April 6, 2016 by Hard2Think

[Hard2Think]

I personally don't think it's normal for a person to lose interest in sex once they're married. That is SUCH a cop-out excuse. Her comment about the other guys, having oral sex, and not being able to keep up with her in bed were really thoughtless remarks on her part. People should give the best of themselves to their spouse. If they don't want to, I don't understand what the point is of marriage.

Again, it's not the remark itself that was objectionable to me. I guess she inadvertently drove home that she knows what is "wild" and what is not. I just haven't been getting much of that over several years.

[HopeForTomorrow]

Again, it's not the remark itself that was objectionable to me. I guess she inadvertently drove home that she knows what is "wild" and what is not. I just haven't been getting much of that over several years.

 

Honestly, I cannot imagine what possessed her to say something like that to you. She had to know that would hurt. I don't blame you at all.

 

I agree with bathtub-row. Whoever says that women generally lose interest in sex after marriage is misinformed. There may be any number of reasons why she wasn't sexual with you. In general, I think that as things get more stressful (kids, jobs, etc) in a marriage, women may lose touch with their sexuality moreso than men do. By that I mean that a million day-to-day things come before sex in their mind, whereas the man can take one look at her and think about sex. It doesn't mean she lost interest, and if she shoved away those millions of things, she would definitely be sexually responsive.

 

IMO too many women let that happen and don't prioritize sex in a marriage. I was married for 17 years and sex was never an issue, because he never lost interest and I never let the day-to-day things get in the way. Yes, sometimes it was a conscious decision rather than feeling sexual at that exact moment, but once the effort was made, it didn't take long to get into it. But the decision to prioritize sex has to be there, on both sides.

[Ladyjane14]

When she denied making nasty remarks to me or being otherwise deliberately unpleasant, I don't believe her because her denial goes contrary to my own experience. My perceptions of being criticized are not that subjective. The criticism and unpleasantness is quite obvious. I don't think this is one of these things where one person was trying to be nice and other perceived it as being mean. The lack of sex is quantifiable. There is no room for doubt here. Yes, I agree that she made attempts to have sex more often but I could see it wasn't coming from desire. That's not her fault. It's just the way she feels about it and I really do think it's too much to ask of someone to make themselves want it. As far as the crappy behavior, that is something she could rectify if she wanted to.

 

I never thought of myself as having walls up. But I guess over time I've accumulated resentment. There is nothing I can think of that she could do now that would change that. Years ago, she could have stopped treating me as she did, she could have stopped using the affair as a billy-club, and she could have been straight with me about the problem with our sex life.

 

I don't know if that helps your thinking on your situation ..

 

I wish you were already familiar with that book I cited earlier, because that way you'd already know what I mean by "sliding door moments". Put simply, they're Gottman's term for when one partner needs the other's support, attention, or affection. At that moment, one either rises to the occasion or misses the opportunity. When enough of them are missed, that wall starts to rise, resentments mount, repairs are more difficult to make and sometimes outright rejected.

 

I don't know how often the infidelity would become a topic or how sharp the barbs were, but I can see how affair triggers could become "sliding door moments" both ways, for her and for you, each needing occasional reassurance.

 

It's unreasonable to expect that a betrayal like that would ever be forgotten, even if it is forgiven. And I've learned recently that trauma on that level isn't as controllable by the higher brain function (frontal cortex) as we might think. Once the amygdala starts over-functioning (fight, flight, or freeze), it's difficult to get it back under control. People who don't know where that sense of panic is coming from are likely to be reactive. And people who do... are still likely to be at the very least internally reactive.

 

Long and short, I can see how the walls can end up climbing again. What's freaking me out... is how completely the former negative perceptions seem to assert themselves. I'm wondering if there are correlations between brain studies of elderly patients and memory loss... how the first, most solid memories in are the last out. So too, could be the reversion to the pre-affair perception of the partner and the marriage... as if recovery had not happened at all?

 

If that ends up being the case, then the worst parts of the marriage become the baseline, the fall-back point. But why the worst parts and not the best? I mean, obviously the worst parts will make huge impressions, but how do we retrain the brain to accentuate the positive? In hindsight, what kind of efforts could each of you have made that might have had that effect? Is it failure of the "sliding door moments"?... or is there something more proactive that too many of us are missing?

[Hard2Think]

I wish you were already familiar with that book I cited earlier, because that way you'd already know what I mean by "sliding door moments". Put simply, they're Gottman's term for when one partner needs the other's support, attention, or affection. At that moment, one either rises to the occasion or misses the opportunity. When enough of them are missed, that wall starts to rise, resentments mount, repairs are more difficult to make and sometimes outright rejected.

 

I don't know how often the infidelity would become a topic or how sharp the barbs were, but I can see how affair triggers could become "sliding door moments" both ways, for her and for you, each needing occasional reassurance.

 

It's unreasonable to expect that a betrayal like that would ever be forgotten, even if it is forgiven. And I've learned recently that trauma on that level isn't as controllable by the higher brain function (frontal cortex) as we might think. Once the amygdala starts over-functioning (fight, flight, or freeze), it's difficult to get it back under control. People who don't know where that sense of panic is coming from are likely to be reactive. And people who do... are still likely to be at the very least internally reactive.

 

Long and short, I can see how the walls can end up climbing again. What's freaking me out... is how completely the former negative perceptions seem to assert themselves. I'm wondering if there are correlations between brain studies of elderly patients and memory loss... how the first, most solid memories in are the last out. So too, could be the reversion to the pre-affair perception of the partner and the marriage... as if recovery had not happened at all?

 

If that ends up being the case, then the worst parts of the marriage become the baseline, the fall-back point. But why the worst parts and not the best? I mean, obviously the worst parts will make huge impressions, but how do we retrain the brain to accentuate the positive? In hindsight, what kind of efforts could each of you have made that might have had that effect? Is it failure of the "sliding door moments"?... or is there something more proactive that too many of us are missing?

 

I worry that you might be overthinking the problem, at least in my case. I have no sliding door moments. She didn't have to catch any opportunity that was only open for a brief period with me. For me it's about the day to day. I was ridiculously easy to keep happy.

 

At risk of sounding shallow, I see that things would have never gone bad and if they had, they would have been fixed a long time ago if we were reconnecting sexually on a regular basis. I we had been, I would have been much more willing to put up with moods and maybe more willing to step up and do what's needed when a "sliding door moment" happens.

 

My W is and has been very affectionate with me for the past years and even more so now that the kids have left the home. We go to nice dinners in posh parts of the city out every week when I get back. She wants to hold my hand as we walk. She gets upset if we don't spend lots of time talking just her and me, which we doi alot of. And yet .. we spend 10 minutes a month at most doing anything sexual. THere's 0 sexual innuendo in any conversation because if I start, she shuts it down. There's no playfully touching her in a certain way at home. Nothing. When it come's time for sex, it's her going "Well, shall we?"

 

I'll tell you what goes through my mind and it's maybe not so pretty. Her needs are pretty clear as are mine. Hers are being met and because mine are not (and I hate to even say it that way), I feel used, She would feel used to if we were having sex every day but I only had a ten minute conversation with her a month. She can tell me she loves me all day long, but it means nothing if she won't touch my c*ck.

 

You think I that on top of everything else I also want to keep an eye out for sliding windows, closing doors, leaky roofs, or whetever else she's got going? Forget it. I simply can't be bothered anymore.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Hard2Think

[Noideanow]

i understand where youre coming from, and im a woman, if i was with a man that didnt want me or where i couldnt feel his attraction to me i would walk out that door:cool: fast:cool: im sure:cool: glad im still single and not in such a relationship:confused:

every day counts, i hope you find love and true affection, and as you said dont waste one more second (on her)

[veryhappy]

Why is op on trial for the a he had 10 years ago? 10 years is a long time, and he's only focused on the M in the mean time. Yet all the discussions circle back to him being deficient because of the a ten full years back. When is enough enough?

 

 

OP, can you make a summary of the sex life of your marriage as in years 1-3 2x a week mind-blowing, years 4-10 once a month chore sex. Some posters here will never (just like your wife) acknowledge the validity of your sexual needs. There are people who don't find it that important, and will never wrap their head around the fact that sex and quality of sex matters.

 

 

So can you make a sexual resume of your marriage? At least people can tell you exactly that your efforts warrant 10 minutes of sexual activity per month.

 

 

To your wife's defense, nobody should have sex they don't want, so being apart would solve her needing to perform without any desire. Given your current state, I suggest you get a divorce because if you are separated but not divorced and you find somebody else, she'll treat it as an affair and you'll go through the same crap all over again.