Update after .. 10+ years!

[Ladyjane14]

Why is op on trial for the a he had 10 years ago? 10 years is a long time, and he's only focused on the M in the mean time. Yet all the discussions circle back to him being deficient because of the a ten full years back. When is enough enough?

 

 

OP, can you make a summary of the sex life of your marriage as in years 1-3 2x a week mind-blowing, years 4-10 once a month chore sex. Some posters here will never (just like your wife) acknowledge the validity of your sexual needs. There are people who don't find it that important, and will never wrap their head around the fact that sex and quality of sex matters.

 

 

So can you make a sexual resume of your marriage? At least people can tell you exactly that your efforts warrant 10 minutes of sexual activity per month.

 

 

To your wife's defense, nobody should have sex they don't want, so being apart would solve her needing to perform without any desire. Given your current state, I suggest you get a divorce because if you are separated but not divorced and you find somebody else, she'll treat it as an affair and you'll go through the same crap all over again.

 

How do you come up with he's "on trial"??? That's just bizarre.

 

He's in a rather unique position to provide insight on post-affair dynamics from ten years out. Asking questions isn't the same as making judgments.

 

 

 

I do have a few more, H2T... if you don't mind. But they'll have to wait until later. I'm finding your responses to be super-helpful, so thank you for that!

[Liam1]

I'll tell you what goes through my mind and it's maybe not so pretty. Her needs are pretty clear as are mine. Hers are being met and because mine are not (and I hate to even say it that way), I feel used, She would feel used to if we were having sex every day but I only had a ten minute conversation with her a month. She can tell me she loves me all day long, but it means nothing if she won't touch my c*ck.

 

 

Wow, exactly. You put it a tad more bluntly language wise than I would have, but yes, my wife was similar. Early in our marriage we has sex frequently. She sometimes initiated. Than eventually she was happy without sex. Still all her needs were being met but my need for sex was totally ignored, dismissed and ridiculed.

 

Really, I am not a sex addict. Prior to my affair, I would have been happy with quality sex perhaps once month. But never was not acceptable.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Liam1

[DreamP]

Still all her needs were being met but my need for sex was totally ignored, dismissed and ridiculed.

 

Problem for me is that my husband does not deny it. He keeps saying he is sexually attracted to me and wants to have sex. To me that is worse. At least if the person said they didn't like sex then I would have a reason. But saying they want it but then rejecting me feels terrible. He also likes to cuddle and give little light kisses, but nothing beyond that.

[Liam1]

Problem for me is that my husband does not deny it. He keeps saying he is sexually attracted to me and wants to have sex. To me that is worse. At least if the person said they didn't like sex then I would have a reason. But saying they want it but then rejecting me feels terrible. He also likes to cuddle and give little light kisses, but nothing beyond that.

 

I agree. That is worse, IMO.

 

My wife maintained that she was still physically attracted to me, but was simply no longer interested in sex with me or anyone. I think that made it a little easier to understand the sexual rejection, while still wishing to cuddle.

[Hard2Think]

How do you come up with he's "on trial"??? That's just bizarre.

 

He's in a rather unique position to provide insight on post-affair dynamics from ten years out. Asking questions isn't the same as making judgments.

 

 

 

I do have a few more, H2T... if you don't mind. But they'll have to wait until later. I'm finding your responses to be super-helpful, so thank you for that!

 

I don't feel like I'm on trial ..! And of course, LadyJane, by all means ask anything you like for as long as it takes. It's the very least I can do and tha's why I'm here.

[Ladyjane14]

I don't feel like I'm on trial ..! And of course, LadyJane, by all means ask anything you like for as long as it takes. It's the very least I can do and tha's why I'm here.

 

Thanks, H2T! I appreciate your candor more than you can know right about now.

 

So... the sex dropped off and at this point, you feel like whatever sex was offered was only obligatory, right? Did you have conversations about that when you first started noticing it? Did your wife ever have an educated understanding of the physiological effects of sex and physical affection as it pertains to emotional bonding? You know, vassopressin/oxytocin = "this is my mate"?

 

Her libido was obviously much less than yours, and that's fairly typical for women at various points during their lives. But did she seek out any treatment or solutions for it?

 

And for your part, did you internalize her lack of interest in sex as a lack of interest in you? Oftentimes, women can be like a car that's been parked too long... takes some time to get the engine started, but once you get the motor running, you're off to the races. It sounds to me like you were plenty persistent in areas like conversation and dating, but were you equally persistent in initiating sex?

 

For a moment, use your imagination and let's say you were getting all the sex you could handle at home... do you think you'd have ever become bored with the same partner?

 

And off topic from the mismatched libidos is the matter of attention/admiration. Is one woman's enough?.. or does it at some point become like getting approval from your mom? Of course you want her approval, but does it satisfy the need to feel admired and appreciated?

[sandylee1]

 

That said, up until last week, I was on the fence about leaving her. Back and forth in my mind. But here's the spark that got me off my chair and out the door: We were having a conversation about something having to do with the fact that as she gets older she only likes the best wines and the best hotels or something like that. Then she mentioned something about one of her rich boyfriends from way back when. She made a comment like "I was a wild girl back then, they couldn't keep up with me in bed". Maybe we had a glass of wine or tow by then, so I asked her "That's nice for them. What happened to that wild girl? I haven't seen her in over 20 years!". So she said something to the effect of that was along time ago. Asked her "I suppose you had oral sex with them, right?" She responded "I did everyting, but that was so long ago. I was 20". So here I was, her husband. I'm the stupid guy that supported her all these years and stuck with her despite everything. And yet I was give scraps all these years. The next day is when I decided to leave.

 

By itself the comment would have been no big deal. If we had enjoyed a great sex life all these years, we would have laughed about it. But given the way it really was, the comment was far from humorous. That fact cannot be undone.

 

But didn't you have a good sex life when you first got together? Didn't you have oral back then? If so... then it's not that only the other guys got it ... you did as well in the beginning.

 

Now while I could try and explain her low libido after having the kids ..... I can't really explain how she treated you when you were ill, when your dad was ill (and stayed with you) or when your dad died.

 

I wonder if she became resentful of being at home with the kids and being overwhelmed with motherhood and running a home.... then somewhere along the way she fell out of love with you, causing her to behave that way. That's what she'll probably never admit to though. Either way her treatment towards you was just awful.

 

I became quite resentful of doing pretty much everything with the kids when they were younger, so I understand how that can happen.

 

I have to say a great number of women may well have been up for a lot more sex in their twenties than in their 40s/50s.... than isn't a big suprise.

[bathtub-row]

Problem for me is that my husband does not deny it. He keeps saying he is sexually attracted to me and wants to have sex. To me that is worse. At least if the person said they didn't like sex then I would have a reason. But saying they want it but then rejecting me feels terrible. He also likes to cuddle and give little light kisses, but nothing beyond that.

 

This makes absolutely no sense to me. He's attracted to you but doesn't want sex. People are so screwed up sometimes.

[sandylee1]

Problem for me is that my husband does not deny it. He keeps saying he is sexually attracted to me and wants to have sex. To me that is worse. At least if the person said they didn't like sex then I would have a reason. But saying they want it but then rejecting me feels terrible. He also likes to cuddle and give little light kisses, but nothing beyond that.

 

Is he A sexual? Or has low T levels?

[DreamP]

Is he A sexual? Or has low T levels?

 

Who knows. He won't go to a medical professional. And he keeps saying he's sexually attracted to me and wants to have a sex life. I'm living a paradox.

 

I should say he is interested in sex once every 2-3 months so he isn't A-sexual.

[Hard2Think]

Thanks, H2T! I appreciate your candor more than you can know right about now.

 

So... the sex dropped off and at this point, you feel like whatever sex was offered was only obligatory, right? Did you have conversations about that when you first started noticing it? Did your wife ever have an educated understanding of the physiological effects of sex and physical affection as it pertains to emotional bonding? You know, vassopressin/oxytocin = "this is my mate"?

 

Her libido was obviously much less than yours, and that's fairly typical for women at various points during their lives. But did she seek out any treatment or solutions for it?

 

And for your part, did you internalize her lack of interest in sex as a lack of interest in you? Oftentimes, women can be like a car that's been parked too long... takes some time to get the engine started, but once you get the motor running, you're off to the races. It sounds to me like you were plenty persistent in areas like conversation and dating, but were you equally persistent in initiating sex?

 

For a moment, use your imagination and let's say you were getting all the sex you could handle at home... do you think you'd have ever become bored with the same partner?

 

And off topic from the mismatched libidos is the matter of attention/admiration. Is one woman's enough?.. or does it at some point become like getting approval from your mom? Of course you want her approval, but does it satisfy the need to feel admired and appreciated?

Yes, I feel now that the sex she's offering is obligatory. I get the bare minimum. Just enough to check off the box that says "We had sex". Of course, I did mention the lack of frequency and variety to her but she takes it as a personal attack and accuses me of never being satisfied no matter what she does. I didn't mention that the sex seems obligatory. I don't see the point. It'll only make her feel bad at best and obligate her to fake it more at worst. I don't think she thinks she has low libido and no I don't think she cares to know one way or the other how that affects bonding. She's an intelligent and capable person, but I really think she hasn't looked at the effect of sex in our relationship in any depth. I doubt she would be inclined to do so. In fact, I remember years ago, she was having a discussion with her friends I guess about sex and their husbands. She relayed back to me that one of her friends was annoyed because her husband was complaining that they hadn't had sex in 3 weeks. Evidently he was trying to get her to agree to at least once a week and she would have none of it. I regret not having used that opportunity to press my wife on what she thought about that. But I wonder today if my wife got reassurance and reinforcement of her position regarding sex from similar-minded friends of hers.

 

Did I take it personally that she didn't want to have sex with me? Absolutely. Did I take that to mean she wasn't interested in me? Completely. I was definitely persistent in pursuing sex, but I was getting shut down alot and sometimes with anger. I did back off after awhile.

 

Would I get bored even if the sex was frequent and varied? I suppose that is a possibility. I think it would be the exception, though. I'm sure we could both come up with ways to spice it up and keep it interesting. That's not to say that I wouldn't fantasize about another woman or that I wouldn't struggle not to follow up on an opportunity that presents myself with another: But I guess if I was enjoying great sex at home, I wouldn't feel as though I were "missing out" by not doing so..

 

As for the admiration and support. No it would never feel like it comes from my mom. With a mother, it's generally unconditional. She'll adore you no matter how ugly, stupid, and unemployed you are. My wife, even if she signed a paper saying we're married, can still leave when she wants. Saying she admires and supports me means quite a bit. And don't get me wrong, she does say that from time to time, and I like that a great deal. So I doubt that part gets old.

 

I know you might find it hard to accept because it sounds so trite: but having regular sex, real sex .. that would have fixed everything. It says everything. I says I'm loved, it says I'm admired, it says she finds me attractive, etc. I would be willing to put up with occasional unpleasant behavior and other idiosyncrasies. I'd move the world for her in a relationship like that. That's how I felt in the beginning. There would be no other issues we couldn't surmount. In short: "It's the sex, stupid!".

 

Again, saying you love me means nothing if you don't want to have sex with me. You could just save your breath.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Hard2Think

[Hard2Think]

But didn't you have a good sex life when you first got together? Didn't you have oral back then? If so... then it's not that only the other guys got it ... you did as well in the beginning.

 

Now while I could try and explain her low libido after having the kids ..... I can't really explain how she treated you when you were ill, when your dad was ill (and stayed with you) or when your dad died.

 

I wonder if she became resentful of being at home with the kids and being overwhelmed with motherhood and running a home.... then somewhere along the way she fell out of love with you, causing her to behave that way. That's what she'll probably never admit to though. Either way her treatment towards you was just awful.

 

I became quite resentful of doing pretty much everything with the kids when they were younger, so I understand how that can happen.

 

I have to say a great number of women may well have been up for a lot more sex in their twenties than in their 40s/50s.... than isn't a big suprise.

Yes we did have frequent sex before and we had oral sex and tried everything legally possible. And yes so I got it and so did they. But why not now? Surely I'm even more worthy now that they were then, no?

 

I don't remember if I explained it in the 10 year old thread from before, but she wasn't running any household. Until my oldest was 9 and my youngest was 5, she was a flight attendant. I was taking care of them alone in (addition to working) at least half the time. Frankly the kids were pretty easy to take care of; I bore no resentment for that and I would expect her not to either. We had a maid to keep the house clean, and I generally cooked breakfast during the week and all meals on weekends. She has never suggested that she did more than her fair share of raising the family. She knows I'd bust a gut laughing if she did.

 

So no .. that wouldn't hold any water. None at all.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Hard2Think

[Ladyjane14]

Yes, I feel now that the sex she's offering is obligatory. I get the bare minimum. Just enough to check off the box that says "We had sex". Of course, I did mention the lack of frequency and variety to her but she takes it as a personal attack and accuses me of never being satisfied no matter what she does. I didn't mention that the sex seems obligatory. I don't see the point. It'll only make her feel bad at best and obligate her to fake it more at worst. I don't think she thinks she has low libido and no I don't think she cares to know one way or the other how that affects bonding. She's an intelligent and capable person, but I really think she hasn't looked at the effect of sex in our relationship in any depth. I doubt she would be inclined to do so. In fact, I remember years ago, she was having a discussion with her friends I guess about sex and their husbands. She relayed back to me that one of her friends was annoyed because her husband was complaining that they hadn't had sex in 3 weeks. Evidently he was trying to get her to agree to at least once a week and she would have none of it. I regret not having used that opportunity to press my wife on what she thought about that. But I wonder today if my wife got reassurance and reinforcement of her position regarding sex from similar-minded friends of hers.

 

Did I take it personally that she didn't want to have sex with me? Absolutely. Did I take that to mean she wasn't interested in me? Completely. I was definitely persistent in pursuing sex, but I was getting shut down alot and sometimes with anger. I did back off after awhile.

 

Would I get bored even if the sex was frequent and varied? I suppose that is a possibility. I think it would be the exception, though. I'm sure we could both come up with ways to spice it up and keep it interesting. That's not to say that I wouldn't fantasize about another woman or that I wouldn't struggle not to follow up on an opportunity that presents myself with another: But I guess if I was enjoying great sex at home, I wouldn't feel as though I were "missing out" by not doing so..

 

As for the admiration and support. No it would never feel like it comes from my mom. With a mother, it's generally unconditional. She'll adore you no matter how ugly, stupid, and unemployed you are. My wife, even if she signed a paper saying we're married, can still leave when she wants. Saying she admires and supports me means quite a bit. And don't get me wrong, she does say that from time to time, and I like that a great deal. So I doubt that part gets old.

 

I know you might find it hard to accept because it sounds so trite: but having regular sex, real sex .. that would have fixed everything. It says everything. I says I'm loved, it says I'm admired, it says she finds me attractive, etc. I would be willing to put up with occasional unpleasant behavior and other idiosyncrasies. I'd move the world for her in a relationship like that. That's how I felt in the beginning. There would be no other issues we couldn't surmount. In short: "It's the sex, stupid!".

 

Again, saying you love me means nothing if you don't want to have sex with me. You could just save your breath.

 

I remember a woman about ten years ago, who posted in the divorce forum, shocked because her husband had left her for a coworker. When I asked her how long it had been since she'd been withholding sex, it turned out to be a YEAR! And yet, she was totally surprised that he had abandoned the home and wanted a divorce.

 

I think even when women do understand the physiological/emotional dynamics of sexual bonding, what they don't understand is why making an effort isn't enough. (????) What I don't get is how having those tough, educational conversations is somehow more daunting than throwing in the towel altogether. Is it because men tend to flood (become emotionally overwhelmed) at the perception of rejection?

[Hard2Think]

I remember a woman about ten years ago, who posted in the divorce forum, shocked because her husband had left her for a coworker. When I asked her how long it had been since she'd been withholding sex, it turned out to be a YEAR! And yet, she was totally surprised that he had abandoned the home and wanted a divorce.

 

I think even when women do understand the physiological/emotional dynamics of sexual bonding, what they don't understand is why making an effort isn't enough. (????) What I don't get is how having those tough, educational conversations is somehow more daunting than throwing in the towel altogether. Is it because men tend to flood (become emotionally overwhelmed) at the perception of rejection?

 

I don't know that I would describe it as "emotionally overwhelming". I see it more as a slow death of love. After enough rejection, I remember I didn't feel like holding her hand or cuddling with her as much. It wasn't anger or vindictiveness; it was more like it felt annoying. Given enough time, and I didn't feel like kissing her because it felt .. blah. That's where I am now. That's why I say it's not reparable.

 

I'm not blaming my wife for me having an affair. That was purely my choice. But like the lady in that thread, she was outraged that I would sleep with another. Her reaction surprised me at the time. I honestly was expecting some indignation from her but not hurt. I wonder now if I didn't allow myself to take more post-affair abuse than I should have.

 

My view about affairs in these circumstances is that it is definitely the deliberate choice of the spouse to cheat, but the backlash if they're found out needs to be in proportion with the choices at home. In other words, I can understand a wife throwing her husband's stuff out in the front lawn and screaming at him to get out of the house if they had been enjoying a strong, passionate relationship. I can understand it far less if she had been treating her husband like an afterthought.

 

The appeal of the affair isn't purely the sex. If it were, it would be infinitely easier and cheaper to get a call-girl. Much of what I getting out of the affair was validation of my value as a sexual being.

 

I remember listening to a this talk show host on the radio: Dr. Laura. I think she had a good understanding of the importance of sex in the marriage for men in particular. Her advice to women was to fake it til you make it when it came to sex in the marriage. She advised them to have sex with their husbands even if they didn't really feel like it. But I think that advice, while well-meaning, is probably not that good. It's a dead end road. The husband will know his wife is shutting her eyes tight and gritting her teeth until she's done and that won't solve the issue.

 

At this point I think the sexless spouse issue is unsolvable unless it's a purely chemical problem. In other countries, the man keeps it together with the wife and family but is "allowed" by society to have a girlfriend on the side. Maybe that's ultimately the only viable solution. The lady in that thread probably would still be married.

[Ladyjane14]

I don't know that I would describe it as "emotionally overwhelming". I see it more as a slow death of love. After enough rejection, I remember I didn't feel like holding her hand or cuddling with her as much. It wasn't anger or vindictiveness; it was more like it felt annoying. Given enough time, and I didn't feel like kissing her because it felt .. blah. That's where I am now. That's why I say it's not reparable.

 

I'm not blaming my wife for me having an affair. That was purely my choice. But like the lady in that thread, she was outraged that I would sleep with another. Her reaction surprised me at the time. I honestly was expecting some indignation from her but not hurt. I wonder now if I didn't allow myself to take more post-affair abuse than I should have.

My view about affairs in these circumstances is that it is definitely the deliberate choice of the spouse to cheat, but the backlash if they're found out needs to be in proportion with the choices at home. In other words, I can understand a wife throwing her husband's stuff out in the front lawn and screaming at him to get out of the house if they had been enjoying a strong, passionate relationship. I can understand it far less if she had been treating her husband like an afterthought.

 

The appeal of the affair isn't purely the sex. If it were, it would be infinitely easier and cheaper to get a call-girl. Much of what I getting out of the affair was validation of my value as a sexual being.

 

I remember listening to a this talk show host on the radio: Dr. Laura. I think she had a good understanding of the importance of sex in the marriage for men in particular. Her advice to women was to fake it til you make it when it came to sex in the marriage. She advised them to have sex with their husbands even if they didn't really feel like it. But I think that advice, while well-meaning, is probably not that good. It's a dead end road. The husband will know his wife is shutting her eyes tight and gritting her teeth until she's done and that won't solve the issue.

 

At this point I think the sexless spouse issue is unsolvable unless it's a purely chemical problem. In other countries, the man keeps it together with the wife and family but is "allowed" by society to have a girlfriend on the side. Maybe that's ultimately the only viable solution. The lady in that thread probably would still be married.

 

The backlash isn't so much proportionate to the pre-affair dynamics as it is to the trauma. I suppose there are myriad reasons why some people are more traumatized than others, some leading all the way back to childhood, some showing more emotional investment, self-esteem and preexisting trust issues.

 

Bottom line though is that in so many cases, what you're dealing with post-affair is a partner with PTSD. The amygdala of the brain on high-alert (fight, flight, or freeze) and the body flooded with adrenaline and cortisol every time the frontal cortex is "triggered".

 

I honestly don't know how long that goes on.

But it's like involuntarily sticking your finger in an electric socket dozens of times a day and feeling that shock directly through your stomach, rapid heart rate... quite unpleasant.

 

To your point about other cultures turning a blind eye toward keeping a side-piece... I can't see how that wouldn't end up being an express route to Roommateville. The physiological aspects of the bond (the love hormones) are shared outside the primary relationship. It would end up as a domestic business arrangement... the very thing one was hoping to avoid.

 

I found what you said about 'validation of your value as a sexual being' quite intriguing. Do you feel that is a common theme among men? And if so, what causes it? I can't say I haven't noticed it before. It does seem prevalent, and I suspect that it's why whatever else the wife might have been bringing to the relationship ends up trumped.

 

Women like to be appreciated for their sexual attractiveness too, don't get me wrong. But for most of us, I think it's more about the rejection of who we are as people (honesty, sweetness, dedication, perseverance, and the host of other character traits which make us each unique)... it's THAT rejection which causes withdrawal.

[Hard2Think]

The backlash isn't so much proportionate to the pre-affair dynamics as it is to the trauma. I suppose there are myriad reasons why some people are more traumatized than others, some leading all the way back to childhood, some showing more emotional investment, self-esteem and preexisting trust issues.

 

Bottom line though is that in so many cases, what you're dealing with post-affair is a partner with PTSD. The amygdala of the brain on high-alert (fight, flight, or freeze) and the body flooded with adrenaline and cortisol every time the frontal cortex is "triggered".

 

I honestly don't know how long that goes on.

But it's like involuntarily sticking your finger in an electric socket dozens of times a day and feeling that shock directly through your stomach, rapid heart rate... quite unpleasant.

 

To your point about other cultures turning a blind eye toward keeping a side-piece... I can't see how that wouldn't end up being an express route to Roommateville. The physiological aspects of the bond (the love hormones) are shared outside the primary relationship. It would end up as a domestic business arrangement... the very thing one was hoping to avoid.

 

I found what you said about 'validation of your value as a sexual being' quite intriguing. Do you feel that is a common theme among men? And if so, what causes it? I can't say I haven't noticed it before. It does seem prevalent, and I suspect that it's why whatever else the wife might have been bringing to the relationship ends up trumped.

 

Women like to be appreciated for their sexual attractiveness too, don't get me wrong. But for most of us, I think it's more about the rejection of who we are as people (honesty, sweetness, dedication, perseverance, and the host of other character traits which make us each unique)... it's THAT rejection which causes withdrawal.

 

I don't dispute the amygdala might be on overdrive and that one can compare it to PSDT. I get the feeling that you're looking for a much deeper explanation for what is really a simple issue. Occam's Razor and all that. I'd use a quote I read and I can't remember from who: "Sex is only 5% of the relationship, but is that 5% is not there, the rest doesn't matter".

 

And that's what it boils down to. She could be the best mother, the best cook, the best housekeeper, and the sweetest, most supportive wife .. but if we're not having sex, then I don't care what else she thinks she's bringing into the relationship. On the flipside, she could be a lousy cook, a lousy housekeeper, and have annoying behaviors occasionally, but if we were sexually connected I'd happily accept the rest of it. The lack of sex and acting like it's "no big deal" will inevitably choke the life out of any marriage.

 

The validation issue is a real one. Of course. I think most men want to feel like they're not just good providers, but that they're perceived as being good lovers as well. That they can still turn her on. I can tell you that I was having doubts about myself. I thought I didn't "have it" anymore. Looking back now, that was ridiculous.

 

In your last point you mentioned women feeling rejected for who they are. Not sure what that means. Can you elaborate?

Edited April 9, 2016 by Hard2Think

[Ladyjane14]

I don't dispute the amygdala might be on overdrive and that one can compare it to PSDT. I get the feeling that you're looking for a much deeper explanation for what is really a simple issue. Occam's Razor and all that. I'd use a quote I read and I can't remember from who: "Sex is only 5% of the relationship, but is that 5% is not there, the rest doesn't matter".

And that's what it boils down to. She could be the best mother, the best cook, the best housekeeper, and the sweetest, most supportive wife .. but if we're not having sex, then I don't care what else she thinks she's bringing into the relationship. On the flipside, she could be a lousy cook, a lousy housekeeper, and have annoying behaviors occasionally, but if we were sexually connected I'd happily accept the rest of it. The lack of sex and acting like it's "no big deal" will inevitably choke the life out of any marriage.

 

The validation issue is a real one. Of course. I think most men want to feel like they're not just good providers, but that they're perceived as being good lovers as well. That they can still turn her on. I can tell you that I was having doubts about myself. I thought I didn't "have it" anymore. Looking back now, that was ridiculous.

 

In your last point you mentioned women feeling rejected for who they are. Not sure what that means. Can you elaborate?

 

Yeah, I'll be glad to. It'll have to be a bit later though... chores to do.

[Ladyjane14]

So, what I meant by "who they are"... Like I mentioned earlier, women have 20 times less testosterone than men do. We also live in a society that does not accept natural aging or imperfections. If you look at it in the old celtic goddess model of "maiden, matron, crone", only "the maiden" appears to be the acceptable form, to have value. We are bombarded with this information through all forms of media.

 

While the key knowledge that we've been discussing here regarding physiological/emotional bonding through sex is NOT intuitive, this other information about aging and imperfections most assuredly is. It's ubiquitous, on the cover of every magazine while we're shopping, every sales pitch on TV... you're only as good as you look.

 

Meanwhile, we are so much more than that. We've got personal interests, opinions, preferences. We're good mothers, good daughters, good cooks, good nurses, good teachers, etc. And we believe that the man we choose to spend our lives with will accept us in our entirety, having appreciation for all those things when our youth and beauty is spent, that he'll still love the matron and even the crone we will someday become.

 

Infidelity takes every fear you ever had that you weren't good enough, magnifies it... and makes it true.

 

You might argue that it's not so. But feelings are always true, and the most basic insecurities of women are exposed and left bare. Am I too fat?..too thin?..too old?..too ugly?..too impatient?..to frivolous? And the answer is yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes again. The guy who you counted on to keep these fears from drowning you just confirmed them in their entirety. It doesn't matter if they're true in actuality or not. That twenty-times more testosterone does MORE than just make guys hornier. It makes them bolder, mutes their anxieties, hushes their insecurities to a degree. Women don't have that counterweight.

 

If I'm hearing you right though... for men, this ONE insecurity cannot be hushed, the fear that his virility will one day wane and that without it (or in sexless and undersexed relationships, without appreciation for it), he has no ability to measure his mate's love for him. He becomes a paycheck and a handyman.

 

I think it's possible that those "love hormones" we talked about earlier are the remedy for that, what keeps a couple dynamic. I think it could well be a physiological balm that he doesn't articulate his need of very well because he's so often unaware of it's existence. It would appear physiological rather than cerebral. All he knows is that he's not getting sexual appreciation.... 5%/95%.

 

A picture emerges. And I think we can see how the ONE male insecurity ends up trumping the host of female ones. It would appear to be more at the subconscious level and dependent on physiological processing.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Ladyjane14

[Mr. Lucky]

You might argue that it's not so. But feelings are always true, and the most basic insecurities of women are exposed and left bare. Am I too fat?..too thin?..too old?..too ugly?..too impatient?..to frivolous? And the answer is yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes again. The guy who you counted on to keep these fears from drowning you just confirmed them in their entirety. It doesn't matter if they're true in actuality or not. That twenty-times more testosterone does MORE than just make guys hornier. It makes them bolder, mutes their anxieties, hushes their insecurities to a degree. Women don't have that counterweight.

 

I understand your comments are specific to the OP's situation.

 

But I'd guess that in the vast majority of sexless marriages, infidelity hasn't occurred. And your perceptive comments regarding the partner's relative roles accurately indicate one of them is satisfied with little or no sex - and the other gets to relive the rejection and devaluation on a daily basis.

 

I don't know how much anxieties are being muted and insecurities hushed under those circumstances...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Ladyjane14]

I understand your comments are specific to the OP's situation.

 

But I'd guess that in the vast majority of sexless marriages, infidelity hasn't occurred. And your perceptive comments regarding the partner's relative roles accurately indicate one of them is satisfied with little or no sex - and the other gets to relive the rejection and devaluation on a daily basis.

 

I don't know how much anxieties are being muted and insecurities hushed under those circumstances...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I'm not so certain that both parties really are content. Whether they realize it or not, women get the same thing from a satisfying sex life that men do.. the "love hormones" again. I just don't think they realize it, since the libido is so temperamental for women.

 

When there's a sexual stalemate... from the woman's standpoint, it appears that all she is on the inside is unimportant to her mate. She's reduced to a hole when nothing else she brings to the relationship is of perceived value to him. What's that old quip?... "a life-support system for a vagina". So the rejection and devaluation is mutual, hence the stalemate.

 

I think if we're seeking solutions, though it might not be the most popular sentiment, the man's need for sexual validation might take precedence, as it appears to be hard-wired into the subconscious and physiological.

 

Here's the problem though... even when the woman is willing to be the first to break the stalemate, her efforts are perceived as patronizing, "ticking a box on her chore list", rather than coming from a place of loving compromise and acknowledgment of her husband's needs.

 

So the question becomes, how is THAT perception repaired? Nobody is really just "a hole" or just "a paycheck". And yet in the face of disappointment, those perceptions seem to snap back into place even after long periods of time.

[Hard2Think]

So, what I meant by "who they are"... Like I mentioned earlier, women have 20 times less testosterone than men do. We also live in a society that does not accept natural aging or imperfections. If you look at it in the old celtic goddess model of "maiden, matron, crone", only "the maiden" appears to be the acceptable form, to have value. We are bombarded with this information through all forms of media.

 

While the key knowledge that we've been discussing here regarding physiological/emotional bonding through sex is NOT intuitive, this other information about aging and imperfections most assuredly is. It's ubiquitous, on the cover of every magazine while we're shopping, every sales pitch on TV... you're only as good as you look.

 

Meanwhile, we are so much more than that. We've got personal interests, opinions, preferences. We're good mothers, good daughters, good cooks, good nurses, good teachers, etc. And we believe that the man we choose to spend our lives with will accept us in our entirety, having appreciation for all those things when our youth and beauty is spent, that he'll still love the matron and even the crone we will someday become.

 

Infidelity takes every fear you ever had that you weren't good enough, magnifies it... and makes it true.

 

You might argue that it's not so. But feelings are always true, and the most basic insecurities of women are exposed and left bare. Am I too fat?..too thin?..too old?..too ugly?..too impatient?..to frivolous? And the answer is yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes again. The guy who you counted on to keep these fears from drowning you just confirmed them in their entirety. It doesn't matter if they're true in actuality or not. That twenty-times more testosterone does MORE than just make guys hornier. It makes them bolder, mutes their anxieties, hushes their insecurities to a degree. Women don't have that counterweight.

 

If I'm hearing you right though... for men, this ONE insecurity cannot be hushed, the fear that his virility will one day wane and that without it (or in sexless and undersexed relationships, without appreciation for it), he has no ability to measure his mate's love for him. He becomes a paycheck and a handyman.

 

I think it's possible that those "love hormones" we talked about earlier are the remedy for that, what keeps a couple dynamic. I think it could well be a physiological balm that he doesn't articulate his need of very well because he's so often unaware of it's existence. It would appear physiological rather than cerebral. All he knows is that he's not getting sexual appreciation.... 5%/95%.

 

A picture emerges. And I think we can see how the ONE male insecurity ends up trumping the host of female ones. It would appear to be more at the subconscious level and dependent on physiological processing.

I hear what you're saying about the insecurities and such. I can believe that for a woman, an affair will bring those out; especially in a relationship in which a wife was giving her all. Then she I can see that she might worry that her all wasn't enough and therefore there must be something wrong with her. A man whose wife cheats will likely fear that the other guy is a better lover .. maybe he has a bigger c*ck. True or not, these are insecurities borne out of infidelity.

 

What about the sexlessness before any A? That has nothing to do with insecurity on her part, does it? In the case of my wife, I'm pretty sure she was anything but insecure. Why should she be? I loved her and showed it. I desired her and she knew it. I Did things for her she could expect from nobody else. In fact, my impression is precisely that she felt too secure. She thought it didn't matter how I felt about things in the relationship, because there I was, no matter what. In part, I'm almost certain that this level of comfort and insecurity was what turned her off. It was boring.

 

The despair I felt at having so little sex with my wife did provoke insecurities, but that was not the biggest problem. I don't feel insecure at all right now, for example. And yet, I feel no closeness for my wife outside a fondness for the shared history we have of raising kids. Hell, I'd love to meet up with her every so often to have dinner together; she can be a lot of fun at times. But I simply don't see her as a lover anymore. Just a good friend at best.

 

My guess, is that when a husband feels like this, he becomes open for a girlfriend. That was the case for me. Not saying I was right to do what i did. I'm not saying she caused me to do it. But I realize looking back that I wanted a girlfriend. I wanted a romantic relationship. I didn't feel like I had one. And yet my wife evidently thought we did.

 

If my wife felt she was "just a hole", then that's on her. I gave her no reason to think such a thing and if she thinks I did, she needed to bring it up, not unilaterally cut sex out of the marriage. My wife is always one to say how important communication is in marriage. I know I couldn't have made it clearer how I felt.

 

In any case, I can tell you with near 100% certainty that if the sex is good in the marriage, the husband will do anything for his wife. Take that away, and there can be very little expectation that he will stick around. Not because she's not a great person, it's just that she doesn't feel like a wife.

 

The reason I say it seems like an unsolvable issue is that a wife who tries to break the stalemate, like you said, by making a sacrifice and conceding to sex with her husband is doomed to fail because the husband is going to know she really doesn't want to do it. I guess it's like a husband agreeing to play less golf and spend time with his wife but spends the time yawning and checking his smartphone as she talks to him. Sure, he can tell the counselor he did stop playing golf, but you can be sure she ends the day yearning for some real communication. My wife waits til the 11 pm, after she's wiped out from a full day to "offer" sex. Same thing. She can keep it.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Hard2Think

[Mr. Lucky]

I'm not so certain that both parties really are content. Whether they realize it or not, women get the same thing from a satisfying sex life that men do.. the "love hormones" again. I just don't think they realize it, since the libido is so temperamental for women.

 

I have a hard time conceptualizing unrealized discontent, seems very close to disproving a negative.

 

I understand we're talking about a narrow band of the overall spectrum of marriage. But I've come to believe I'd almost rather have an unfaithful partner than one that's excessively LD. There are stories here of marriages that have recovered from affairs but I'm hard pressed to think of a sexless marriage poster who's achieved anything other than resignation or divorce...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Hard2Think]

I have a hard time conceptualizing unrealized discontent, seems very close to disproving a negative.

 

I understand we're talking about a narrow band of the overall spectrum of marriage. But I've come to believe I'd almost rather have an unfaithful partner than one that's excessively LD. There are stories here of marriages that have recovered from affairs but I'm hard pressed to think of a sexless marriage poster who's achieved anything other than resignation or divorce...

 

Mr. Lucky

I was about to write something about this. You took the words right out of my mouth. Just looking at the top threads in this thread sub area, and already there are 3 sexless marriage posts. I feel bad for these guys as I don't think the prognosis is very good.

 

I cam across this which confirms some of my suspicions: The Night I Gave My Husband a Free Pass Scary Mommy

[Ladyjane14]

I have a hard time conceptualizing unrealized discontent, seems very close to disproving a negative.

 

I understand we're talking about a narrow band of the overall spectrum of marriage. But I've come to believe I'd almost rather have an unfaithful partner than one that's excessively LD. There are stories here of marriages that have recovered from affairs but I'm hard pressed to think of a sexless marriage poster who's achieved anything other than resignation or divorce...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I'm not talking about excessively low drive or asexuality. I'm talking about typical women. Our libidos ebb and flow through life's changes. Twenty times less testosterone, remember?

[Ladyjane14]

I was about to write something about this. You took the words right out of my mouth. Just looking at the top threads in this thread sub area, and already there are 3 sexless marriage posts. I feel bad for these guys as I don't think the prognosis is very good.

 

I cam across this which confirms some of my suspicions: The Night I Gave My Husband a Free Pass Scary Mommy

 

What was it about that article that freaked you out?