When they say I LOVE YOU

[Cymbeline]

Actually, this one is probable better to start with.

 

[Liam1]

Sometimes I wonder why people in marriages like this don't issue some sort of an ultimatum to their spouse along the lines of, "either we work on improving sex and get it to an acceptable level for both of us, or we open up the marriage." Seems better than leaving an otherwise good marriage for the sake of sex... thoughts?

 

Lemondrop:

 

We did have those discussions many times. Along with frequent requests for counseling and asking if she wanted to divorce.

 

I am not into issuing ultimatums unless I intend to follow through.

 

Neither my wife nor I wanted a divorce. The marriage was good in all aspects accept for the sexual aspect.

 

Some People talk about people who engage in infidelity as wanting their cake and eating it too.

 

But, IMO, people who refuse counseling to address issues or deficits in the marriage, and are all too happy to carry on as if nothing is wrong, also want their cake and eat it, too.

 

They want to unilaterally dictate the terms of the marriage without regard to the feelings or emotional well being of the other spouse.

 

Some people insist that in cases where there are marital deficits or issues that the other spouse will not address, that divorce is the only honorable choice.

 

Well, I disagree. Divorce is not always the honorable choice. It depends on many variables.

 

A lot of people are harmed and devastated by divorce. Particularly very young children.

 

IMO, saying that one should simply divorce is far too simplistic.

 

Not to mention the loyal spouse may not want a divorce.

 

Isn't it better to try to iron out the problems?

 

In many respects it would have been easier for us both to walk away and find a new mate. Neither of us wanted that.

 

I have mentioned this before but our marriage counselor asked my wife if she would have preferred if I had simply come home one day and said: "I'm done. Here are the divorce papers"

 

My wife said, she would have been devastated had I simply decided to file for divorce.

 

She says the affair was a wake up call and gave her the opportunity to take my complaint seriously and to work on the marriage.

 

To that end she saw a certified, licensed, reputable sex therapist and that helped her a lot, along with marriage counseling.

[ShatteredLady]

Many people, particularly certain cultures have a lot of problems talking about sex. Don't get me wrong...they brag about it, they do it but they find it very hard to discuss the details.

 

I can only speak for the friends I've had in my life. I think there are as many sexually frustrated women out there as there are men. I know many won't agree.

 

One of the most common complaints is the predictability, same old thing of sex. Lights out, foe back rub, hands travel down, quick fiddle, roll over, away we go. I think women have far less tolerance to same old, same old than men seem to.

 

People seem to forget that once upon a time that H & W were passion crazed, young people who couldn't keep their hands off of each-other! I call BOLLOCKS on "Its just to get a ring". Passion is a living thing. Starve it & it wilts.

 

Sex becomes a habit. Not having sex becomes a habit. One big difference is, women not having sex don't often feed their libido with porn. The no sex habit sets in faster & lasts longer.

 

Man or woman, when someone stops adoring your body (maybe rejection too) & the self confidence goes. Same old, with the lights off can feel like rejection to a woman. I want to be made love to....that revs my engine & kills inhibitions. (Much like being wooed & a nice bottle of wine!)

 

When it's new you KNOW that that person finds you attractive, lusts after you. That's a HUGE turn on. Once it's old & you're ignored & rejected in other ways. Once you don't feel beautiful & adored, safe & cared for, loved & cherished. Once you know the exact script that's going to be followed...lets be honest, it's barely worth the effort!

 

Sorry. I got interrupted a lot writing this. I'm not sure if I'm still on point

[oceansaway]

A lot of great points on the subject. I believe having someone desire and want to have sex when the spouse doesn't...is such a ego boost. It makes one feel wanted again. However I believe they fall in love with the fantasy life they lead. The excitement of the affair. It makes them feel alive

[sandylee1]

 

Not to mention the loyal spouse may not want a divorce.

 

Isn't it better to try to iron out the problems?

 

In many respects it would have been easier for us both to walk away and find a new mate. Neither of us wanted that.

 

I have mentioned this before but our marriage counselor asked my wife if she would have preferred if I had simply come home one day and said: "I'm done. Here are the divorce papers"

 

My wife said, she would have been devastated had I simply decided to file for divorce.

 

She says the affair was a wake up call and gave her the opportunity to take my complaint seriously and to work on the marriage.

 

To that end she saw a certified, licensed, reputable sex therapist and that helped her a lot, along with marriage counseling.

 

 

But it's not really about the loyal spouse wanting a divorce ... if they continue to not meet needs of the other ... they have to accept divorce is a consequence.

 

And Liam .... your wife is a very rare case ... where the BW says they prefer the affair as opposed to coming home one day and being served. That really is not the norm.

 

In fact it's the only case I've heard that to be the case.

 

If I was served with D papers that would certainly be a wake up call.

[Dylon]

But it's not really about the loyal spouse wanting a divorce ... if they continue to not meet needs of the other ... they have to accept divorce is a consequence.

 

And Liam .... your wife is a very rare case ... where the BW says they prefer the affair as opposed to coming home one day and being served. That really is not the norm.

 

In fact it's the only case I've heard that to be the case.

 

If I was served with D papers that would certainly be a wake up call.

 

My wife was like that too. Divorce is the last option: against every fiber of her culture, belief system, and she loves me as I'm sure Liam's wife loves him enough to do everything humanly possible.

[Dylon]

The love we speak of in affair is a state of mind, even if it lasted a long time, most likely what you call "romantic love". It's not the same as love in a marriage which is more and has been tested through the normal course of a relationship and many "normal" relationship challenges .

 

When one says "I love you", it means so many things to so many people. Isn't the question of "love" debated throughout human history?

 

When I said it to the xOW, it doens't mean: I will do anything for you, leave my family and plan to be with you or marry you. I don't think she thought of it that way either. It's the evolution of the meaning of love beyond that "romantic" state that often split the agreement between the married and the single in an affair.

 

What it meant to me when I said it was: I love being with you, I like how you make me feel, I'm attracted to you, I think about you, worry about you, I want to do things for you and can't stop wanting to, and worry about your health and well being.

 

There is one block each time I think about it, and I consciously know it. I care about your future and I don't want to see you hurt. At that point, a massive pain goes through me. I fall deep into sadness. I imagine it and it broke my comfort zone. But that's another story. That's when I go into the "letting go" mode....because as lame as it seems, an affair is full of contradiction. Saying "I love you" is both a state of mind which is true, and a logical suicidal self diagnostic!

[Grapesofwrath]

The love we speak of in affair is a state of mind, even if it lasted a long time, most likely what you call "romantic love". It's not the same as love in a marriage which is more and has been tested through the normal course of a relationship and many "normal" relationship challenges .

 

When one says "I love you", it means so many things to so many people. Isn't the question of "love" debated throughout human history?

 

When I said it to the xOW, it doens't mean: I will do anything for you, leave my family and plan to be with you or marry you. I don't think she thought of it that way either. It's the evolution of the meaning of love beyond that "romantic" state that often split the agreement between the married and the single in an affair.

 

What it meant to me when I said it was: I love being with you, I like how you make me feel, I'm attracted to you, I think about you, worry about you, I want to do things for you and can't stop wanting to, and worry about your health and well being.

 

There is one block each time I think about it, and I consciously know it. I care about your future and I don't want to see you hurt. At that point, a massive pain goes through me. I fall deep into sadness. I imagine it and it broke my comfort zone. But that's another story. That's when I go into the "letting go" mode....because as lame as it seems, an affair is full of contradiction. Saying "I love you" is both a state of mind which is true, and a logical suicidal self diagnostic!

 

Actions > words.

 

Near the end of our time together, My xMM told me that we should talk. He said he felt we should stop making love because he wanted to "honor" me and that the way to do that would be to step aside so I could move on with my life and find someone who would be a real partner to me. He was right, and it was a loving thing to say.

 

Except that after we got home that evening, he asked me to take a shower with him and then, of course, we went to bed together.

 

Actions > words.

[Dylon]

Actions > words.

 

Near the end of our time together, My xMM told me that we should talk. He said he felt we should stop making love because he wanted to "honor" me and that the way to do that would be to step aside so I could move on with my life and find someone who would be a real partner to me. He was right, and it was a loving thing to say.

 

Except that after we got home that evening, he asked me to take a shower with him and then, of course, we went to bed together.

 

Actions > words.

 

Lol.....

 

So what are you saying? If he loves you and meant what he said, he would not have made love to you and push you out of bed . Well, that's good to know since all I did was push push push. It's double talk of course. To love is to leave or to stay? It was my dilemma since we had feelings. My answer was always: I will let you go. I'm going to cry but I will do it. She said, if you love me, you will never let me go.

 

Anyway, an affair is always a paradox when you claim love.

[Lovetoohard]

"I love you" in my case was more like "I love how you make me feel, you are my happy place, my friend and lover and the only one that understands me, and my lifeline when I need it." It wasn't the kind of unconditional, selfless love that defines real love. That said, there were times where xMM did things where I felt that he loved me, or at the very least, deeply cared about me, but there wasn't a consistency and steadiness to it. I think there was so much internal conflict within him in setting his priorities that everyone that deserved his love and attention probably felt his struggle on some level (even if they didn't quite know what exactly it was). An unfair thing to everyone he said he loved. Sometimes I don't even think he loved himself and had deep rooted insecurities that diminished his capacity to genuinely feel and give love.

 

The love we speak of in affair is a state of mind, even if it lasted a long time, most likely what you call "romantic love". It's not the same as love in a marriage which is more and has been tested through the normal course of a relationship and many "normal" relationship challenges .

 

When one says "I love you", it means so many things to so many people. Isn't the question of "love" debated throughout human history?

 

When I said it to the xOW, it doens't mean: I will do anything for you, leave my family and plan to be with you or marry you. I don't think she thought of it that way either. It's the evolution of the meaning of love beyond that "romantic" state that often split the agreement between the married and the single in an affair.

 

What it meant to me when I said it was: I love being with you, I like how you make me feel, I'm attracted to you, I think about you, worry about you, I want to do things for you and can't stop wanting to, and worry about your health and well being.

 

There is one block each time I think about it, and I consciously know it. I care about your future and I don't want to see you hurt. At that point, a massive pain goes through me. I fall deep into sadness. I imagine it and it broke my comfort zone. But that's another story. That's when I go into the "letting go" mode....because as lame as it seems, an affair is full of contradiction. Saying "I love you" is both a state of mind which is true, and a logical suicidal self diagnostic!

 

As a follow up to my initial post and Dylon's post, I re-read what was written and I have been doing a lot of self reflection with this. As a single OW, what did I mean when I said "I love you" to my xMM all those times? I can re-write exactly what is written above and apply it to myself - I loved the way he made me feel, he was my happy place, my friend and lover, he seemed to be the only one who understood me (except towards the end), and he was my lifeline when I needed it. When I broke up with him, he lashed out in anger and said "You only wanted to be with me for your selfish reasons" and it's hard for me to admit it, but it's true. I got external validation in the form of affection, intimacy, adventure, fun, friendship, and admiration. I am still a work in progress with understanding my need for external validation and the need to make people happy to the point where I end up extending myself beyond the boundaries that preserve a healthy emotional state, but that's another topic. Sure, I wanted him to take a chance on seeing if this "love" could be sustained within the context of a real relationship, but did I really love him to want to build a life with him? I'm not sure. I mean, we never got to try it out for real, but even then, i'm not sure. Putting myself in his shoes, I don't think I would drop everything i'd built for an "i'm not sure." So maybe i'm just like xMM in that respect. Maybe we both loved each other in the same selfish way. In any case, the "love" we had wasn't enough for him to leave his life as a husband and father, and it wasn't enough for me to leave my future as a single woman.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Lovetoohard

[13Hearts]

I have heard those words from so many guys, and so many guys who did the $hittiest things, that I pay no attention to it anymore. Men use "I love you" to get what they want, to their own benefit, and to get you to attach to them emotionally. And we women are just so easy we fall for it.

 

No more. It means NOTHING to a man. A man can tell his wife of 20, 30, 40 years "I love you," and walk out the door into the arms of another woman without blinking an eye.

[Grapesofwrath]

Lol.....

 

So what are you saying? If he loves you and meant what he said, he would not have made love to you and push you out of bed . Well, that's good to know since all I did was push push push. It's double talk of course. To love is to leave or to stay? It was my dilemma since we had feelings. My answer was always: I will let you go. I'm going to cry but I will do it. She said, if you love me, you will never let me go.

 

Anyway, an affair is always a paradox when you claim love.

 

What I'm saying is that he said the right words, but the actions were in contradiction to that. i was guilty of the same thing. I would say the words that we should end the relationship for the benefit of all involvewd, but I didn't take the corresponding actions, The actions tell the story.

 

For example, the last time I saw him, as we parted company he told me he loved me, hug & kiss, then went home. The next week he went on vacation with his family and there was complete radio silence for 10 days. To me, that is not the action of a man who loves me. That time, i took the actions that matched the words that I felt.

[anyonecandoit]

Wanna know if he really loves you? Have him say ILYs to you in front of his wife...

 

Love it! So true!

[MidnightBlue1980]

The love we speak of in affair is a state of mind, even if it lasted a long time, most likely what you call "romantic love". It's not the same as love in a marriage which is more and has been tested through the normal course of a relationship and many "normal" relationship challenges .

 

When one says "I love you", it means so many things to so many people. Isn't the question of "love" debated throughout human history?

 

When I said it to the xOW, it doens't mean: I will do anything for you, leave my family and plan to be with you or marry you. I don't think she thought of it that way either. It's the evolution of the meaning of love beyond that "romantic" state that often split the agreement between the married and the single in an affair.

 

What it meant to me when I said it was: I love being with you, I like how you make me feel, I'm attracted to you, I think about you, worry about you, I want to do things for you and can't stop wanting to, and worry about your health and well being.

 

There is one block each time I think about it, and I consciously know it. I care about your future and I don't want to see you hurt. At that point, a massive pain goes through me. I fall deep into sadness. I imagine it and it broke my comfort zone. But that's another story. That's when I go into the "letting go" mode....because as lame as it seems, an affair is full of contradiction. Saying "I love you" is both a state of mind which is true, and a logical suicidal self diagnostic!

 

You need to know most women do not feel that way. When you say I love you, it means one thing only, "I want to be with you, above all others, forever.". It's actually really simple. And I'm married, so I get what you are saying but I left my husband and told him I wanted a divorce. Because when I say, I love you, its an action thing. My husband knew xMM was bad news and he was right, so he waited it out and here I am.

 

So the question is, is love an affliction to be fought, like a cancer? Or is it something to be honored? If you love someone and lack the conviction to take a stand, will you regret it the rest of your days?

 

Will you always wonder, what if?

[MidnightBlue1980]

What I'm saying is that he said the right words, but the actions were in contradiction to that. i was guilty of the same thing. I would say the words that we should end the relationship for the benefit of all involvewd, but I didn't take the corresponding actions, The actions tell the story.

 

For example, the last time I saw him, as we parted company he told me he loved me, hug & kiss, then went home. The next week he went on vacation with his family and there was complete radio silence for 10 days. To me, that is not the action of a man who loves me. That time, i took the actions that matched the words that I felt.

 

I agree 100%.

[Liam1]

But it's not really about the loyal spouse wanting a divorce ... if they continue to not meet needs of the other ... they have to accept divorce is a consequence.

 

And Liam .... your wife is a very rare case ... where the BW says they prefer the affair as opposed to coming home one day and being served. That really is not the norm.

 

In fact it's the only case I've heard that to be the case.

 

If I was served with D papers that would certainly be a wake up call.

 

Well, I don't think any good psychologist would suggest using the ultimatum of a divorce as a way to get the partner into counseling.

 

I belong to an BAN, where many of the women claim that divorce papers would have been more upsetting.

 

An affair is a temporary thing, is not an ultimatum. A divorce is permanent.

 

But if that is what would work for you, then by all means feel free to threaten your spouse with divorce if he refuses counseling to address issues you may have.

[sandylee1]

Well, I don't think any good psychologist would suggest using the ultimatum of a divorce as a way to get the partner into counseling.

 

I belong to an BAN, where many of the women claim that divorce papers would have been more upsetting.

 

An affair is a temporary thing, is not an ultimatum. A divorce is permanent.

 

But if that is what would work for you, then by all means feel free to threaten your spouse with divorce if he refuses counseling to address issues you may have.

 

I just can't see that an affair is better than leaving the marriage if one isn't happy. I can't imagine my husband would prefer me to sleep with another man rather than divorce... and many people remarry.. it's not that final. I'd rather divorce than images in my head of my husband fu****g another woman any day.

 

I can remarry him but he can't unf**k her.

 

In relation to it being a threat.. that's not what I mean. If I repeatedly say I'm not happy about something and my spouse refuses to take action... then divorce is to find my own happiness and not to be a threat or ultimatum.

 

It's a simple case of I can't continue like this and being in this state of unhappiness isn't working for me ... so I'm removing myself from the situation.

 

Now I know for numerous reasons some women (and men) will stay in an unhappy marriage and not get divorced come hell or high water. I know someone whose husband has 7 children outside the marriage than -- but if being a doormat suits her for religious or other reasons ...that's her business. At a point it boils down to weaknesses and lack of self respect.

 

Each to their own and different strokes for different folks.

Edited April 5, 2016 by sandylee1
eta

[Liam1]

I just can't see that an affair is better than leaving the marriage if one isn't happy. I can't imagine my husband would prefer me to sleep with another man rather than divorce... and many people remarry.. it's not that final. I'd rather divorce than images in my head of my husband fu****g another woman any day.

 

Well, you certainly are entitled to feel that way. I don't. My wife has told me she doesn't and there are numerous people who survive and thrive after an affair. But of course not everyone.

 

I am not trying to convince anyone or anything. I am simply relating my experience. Everyone may do and believe as they wish. It is not up to me to dictate to them.

 

Social mores are fluid and change over time. They are most certainly influenced by other peoples opinions and attitudes.

 

Sometimes these social mores swing back and forth with a particular era.

 

Maybe my story will give people who are in reconciliation some hope. Still, if someone feels strongly that the infidelity was a deal breaker. That's okay and they should trust their decision.

 

I can remarry him but he can't unf**k her.

That's true and if that is the path you prefer. Go for it. However you are assuming your husband would be open to remarrying.

 

In relation to it being a threat.. that's not what I mean. If I repeatedly say I'm not happy about something and my spouse refuses to take action... then divorce is to find my own happiness and not to be a threat or ultimatum.

Exactly. It's not a threat, it's a decision. Most people file for divorce when they are done completely with the marriage. They are at the end of their rope and want out.

 

In your earlier post you said:

 

Originally Posted by sandylee1

But it's not really about the loyal spouse wanting a divorce ... if they continue to not meet needs of the other ... they have to accept divorce is a consequence.

 

If I was served with D papers that would certainly be a wake up call.

 

That statement implies that you would want the divorce notice to be a wake up call, but that contradicts your later statement of wanting to leave and find your own happiness.

 

What if you were disrespecting your spouses needs and he handed you divorce papers, and it was a wake up call to you, but to him the divorce notice meant he was done. It was too late for you to change. He wanted out and nothing you could say or do would matter now?

 

IMO, an infidelity may indicate the spouse was at the end of their rope and chose to have an affair to get their needs met somewhere else, but it does not mean they wanted out of the marriage, obviously.

 

Divorce indicates the spouse is serious about wanting out.

 

Seriously divorcing my spouse would have been easier for me. If my infidelity had caused my wife to divorce I would have accepted that, without dispute.

 

She wanted to work on the marriage. I gave her the out of divorcing. She did not want to divorce.

 

Filing for divorce is not a joke. People should only do it when they actually do want a divorce.

 

I think most people who have gone through the trouble of filing are done with the marriage. They have talked, cajoled, and compromised enough, and now they are done.

 

 

It's a simple case of I can't continue like this and being in this state of unhappiness isn't working for me ... so I'm removing myself from the situation.

That's euphemism for divorce and you are taking a big leap of faith that once divorced your husband would be willing to remarry you. What if that is not on his agenda?

 

Now I know for numerous reasons some women (and men) will stay in an unhappy marriage and not get divorced come hell or high water. I know someone whose husband has 7 children outside the marriage than -- but if being a doormat suits her for religious or other reasons ...that's her business. At a point it boils down to weaknesses and lack of self respect.

In some cases that may be true. I don't live in other people heads, so I don't know how they feel or think. Only they do.

 

Each to their own and different strokes for different folks.

I agree. Whatever works.