There are responsibilities for a BS in reconciliation.

[Liam1]

but the decision to have an AFFAIR to deal with the pain of that dysfunction is ALL ON THE WS.

 

So?

 

And,the decision to remain blind to obvious dysfunction or to agree to tackle it together, is all on the Spouse who refuses to acknowledge and address those issues.

 

Sometimes that is the BS, sometimes it's the WS, sometimes it is both spouses.

 

If a couple wants to their marriage to improve or their reconciliation to be successful then they are going to have to get past the childish back and forth of who is to blame for what and both MUST OWN their issues.

[ladydesigner]

So?

 

And,the decision to remain blind to obvious dysfunction or to agree to tackle it together, is all on the Spouse who refuses to acknowledge and address those issues.

 

Sometimes that is the BS, sometimes it's the WS, sometimes it is both spouses.

 

If a couple wants to their marriage to improve or their reconciliation to be successful then they are going to have to get past the childish back and forth of who is to blame for what and both MUST OWN their issues.

 

 

Can you explain your role in the state of the marriage before the affair?

 

Maybe we will understand your point more after this question^ has been answered because usually it is BOTH the BS and the WS that contributes to the breakdown of the M yet only one chose to step out and drop a nuke on the whole M.

[JohnAdams]

I have been thinking, that while one can never forget what was done, and should not, the affair, the cheating, and the lying, that once you have made the decision to reconcile, you then must, take divorce, and other negative positions off the table if reconciliation is to really work. The BS has work to do as well as the WS. Not only must the cheating be addressed, but any other problems in the marriage must be worked on as well.

 

We all know what the WS must and has to do for a "good" reconciliation, but, and this maybe harder, there are things a BS must do as well. Remember, as a BS, you have decided that life is better, even living with the betrayal, with your spouse.

 

What must a BS do to make the reconciliation work? My thoughts.

 

1) Forgive, and not hold over the WS their action, unless by their present actions, their past must be readdressed. IE, I do not bring up my wife past ONS, and over spending, unless it is germane to the conversation or situation.

 

2) Really decide if you are going to reconcile and give it 100%. Once your "gift" is given you should be prepared for all the hard work that it implies.

 

3) Accept when and if the WS is working and changing, and while verifying, give them benefit of the doubt when warranted.

 

4) Approach the marriage as equals on issues and problems that are not from the affair. In other words, at some point, future problems must be dealt with and the high ground will need to be abandoned.

 

 

This is assuming, and this can be a big assumption, that the WS is a former WS, and is doing everything that is asked for and accepted to reconcile. In other words, a false reconciliation is not happening. Example: Mrs. JA, and there are others, VBM wife, Anne was doing everything she could to walk the straight and narrow.

 

For those that advise divorce, and only divorce, I would ask that you widen your position, and give some thought to what you may think is necessary for a BS to have a good reconciliation.

 

My two cents, and lets hope for a good conversation...........

 

My thoughts, first, a BS at least initially owes their WS nothing. The WS chose to throw away the marriage instead of working on whatever problems existed pre-affair. So, in reality, in many cases all the BS owes the WS are divorce papers.

 

Now, if a BS chooses to reconcile, more than a fair share of the mending is forced onto the BS. Just taking a look back at my own situation, the affair hit me like an atom bomb. I was completely surprised and unprepared. Our life was set up around the two of us and our children. Our finances were one, our children were part of us, she was the only thing I knew in life. I had no idea what to do.....and this was the pre-internet days.

 

I felt desperate, I really did not know who to turn to. My wife was my best friend and she had betrayed me. So, I think I was probably initially a bit pathetic in getting her to stay. Trying to convince her I loved her, would forgive her, etc. During this timeframe she was in probably what is now referred to as the affair fog. She said a lot of things not trying to hurt me, but the facts, and these things sting to this day.

 

So, I tried not to bring up the affair, but she knew from my depression and thought I was trying to punish her. I would then have to suck it up and figure out how to pull myself out of the gutter.

 

I fought very hard for our marriage and she has always given me the credit for saving our marriage.

 

You do as the BS have to forgive, but what is forgiveness? Per the bible, it is if it never happened. Well, I am capable of that ever happening. I think the forgiveness is learning and not letting the transgression rule your life. Also the WS has to learn remorse. Again, a difficult thing to define. It is not sobbing and saying you are sorry, it is understanding in the depths of your soul what you did to the person you love.

 

The affair is part of our history just like many of the happy things in our life is part of our history. We do not pretend it did not happen. We can talk openly and candidly without attacking.

 

I am a simple guy. All I want is to be comfortable in life. That was taken away from me for a long time. Once again, I am a comfortable guy. I feel very blessed that we made it. We are better than ever, not because of the affair but in spite of it.

 

We celebrate our 44th anniversary this week. We are fortunate enough to spend two weeks in the Caribbean in a beautiful villa. We have both worked very hard to be where we are, I think we won.

[HereNorThere]

I think best analogy for blame shifting by WS is comparing it to any other crime and whether or not their excuses would hold up in court.

 

If you murdered your wife, you couldn't just go in front of the Judge and plead "Your honor, I know I killed my wife, but you have to realize she wasn't meeting my needs. She was disrespectful, spent too much money, didn't support me emotionally blah, blah, blah."

 

Your sorry arse would still be in jail. Sorry, but you can't justify cheating based on your partner's actions the same way you couldn't justify killing them. The Judge would simply tell you "well, you should have divorced and moved on with your life."

 

The blameshifting is all related to ego. Most WS have to rationalize because the truth is too hard to deal with. It takes a really, really strong person to admit they are the type of person that would betray their loved ones. Cheaters aren't really known to have those hard admissions about their character. For the most, they are conflict-avoidant even when the conflict is between their self and their actions.

[heartwhole]

The choice between divorce or cheating is a false dichotomy. You are not in fact limited to these two bad choices. Nor does your spouse disliking one bad choice less than the other sanctify said choice.

[ShatteredLady]

Mr Adams. Your response is so, so, so how I feel. The problem is I rugswept. So many HUGE things (my H Mum died, my brother) happened. Strangely I not only forgave but I pretty much forgot!

 

My H seemed to trigger more than me as the years went on. When friends had affairs he would be the one to bring-up our situation with apologies. I was so happy when he said of a friend sexting "Stupid, stupid man! He's risking everything for less than nothing!".

 

Anyway, my question is, how would you of coped if you found complete peace again (much like you now feel) & you discovered that Mrs Adams was having an EA with her exOM? Could your heart & mind process it?

 

I've been reading this thread but my particular situation makes it so hard to think. Our relationship was so different 12 years ago. It leaves me feeling, as a bs that no matter how much work I do, no matter how much responsibility I take there's always going to be something that I can be blamed for.

 

I get what Liam (for example) is saying but I can't not be sick & not be boring again. How do you make sure that your spouse ALWAYS feels so "Special" that they will always stay true? Things will always happen. What if you Mr Adams become very sick?

 

I don't know.

[ladydesigner]

Mr Adams. Your response is so, so, so how I feel. The problem is I rugswept. So many HUGE things (my H Mum died, my brother) happened. Strangely I not only forgave but I pretty much forgot!

 

My H seemed to trigger more than me as the years went on. When friends had affairs he would be the one to bring-up our situation with apologies. I was so happy when he said of a friend sexting "Stupid, stupid man! He's risking everything for less than nothing!".

 

Anyway, my question is, how would you of coped if you found complete peace again (much like you now feel) & you discovered that Mrs Adams was having an EA with her exOM? Could your heart & mind process it?

 

I've been reading this thread but my particular situation makes it so hard to think. Our relationship was so different 12 years ago. It leaves me feeling, as a bs that no matter how much work I do, no matter how much responsibility I take there's always going to be something that I can be blamed for.

 

I get what Liam (for example) is saying but I can't not be sick & not be boring again. How do you make sure that your spouse ALWAYS feels so "Special" that they will always stay true? Things will always happen. What if you Mr Adams become very sick?

 

I don't know.

 

Yes this^^^ and in my WH's case I'm not even sure that me making him feel special even counts. I made my WH feel special prior to Dday but it wasn't enough. I again tried to make him feel special in R, but that wasn't enough. For some WS's external validation is where they get their "special" from. My WH falls into this category. What he really needs to explore is how HE can feel special without anyone's validation.

[MuddyFootprints]

My biggest worry was always about us tripping over the lumps under the carpet.

 

We did some deep cleaning very recently. I was surprised, but grateful. I knew there were still lumps and I know there still are. For me, it feels as though I've finally broken through a barrier. Not that it was impeding our path forward, but it was a true demonstration of trust and safety in our relationship.

[katielee]

how HE can feel special without anyone's validation.

 

nailed it.

[HereNorThere]

The choice between divorce or cheating is a false dichotomy. You are not in fact limited to these two bad choices. Nor does your spouse disliking one bad choice less than the other sanctify said choice.

 

I don't think anyone is saying those are your only two choices. It's more "if you really think your spouse is such a bad person or treats you so poorly that you absolutely need to be with someone else, you should divorce before you do it."

 

Some people are literally born cheaters. It's in their genetics, it's part of their personality. They should just stay single and date with no commitment, but they enjoy the benefits of being in a relationship as much as they enjoy sleeping around. If you are one of those people or married to one of those people, you more than likely should just divorce. Not saying all cheaters are that way, but there is certain personality profile of a serial cheater or someone capable of a long term deception that should avoid marriage.

[wmacbride]

I think best analogy for blame shifting by WS is comparing it to any other crime and whether or not their excuses would hold up in court.

 

If you murdered your wife, you couldn't just go in front of the Judge and plead "Your honor, I know I killed my wife, but you have to realize she wasn't meeting my needs. She was disrespectful, spent too much money, didn't support me emotionally blah, blah, blah."

 

Your sorry arse would still be in jail. Sorry, but you can't justify cheating based on your partner's actions the same way you couldn't justify killing them. The Judge would simply tell you "well, you should have divorced and moved on with your life."

i

The blameshifting is all related to ego. Most WS have to rationalize because the truth is too hard to deal with. It takes a really, really strong person to admit they are the type of person that would betray their loved ones. Cheaters aren't really known to have those hard admissions about their character. For the most, they are conflict-avoidant even when the conflict is between their self and their actions.

 

Another analogy would be a small child who pinched his sister, and when caught says " but she stuck her tongue out at me so I had to do it"

[jasmineb]

Another analogy would be a small child who pinched his sister, and when caught says " but she stuck her tongue out at me so I had to do it"

 

I like this because it illustrates how childish a nonremorseful WS is. They really are like playground bullies who threaten to beat you up if you don't give them your lunch money.

[understand50]

I like this because it illustrates how childish a nonremorseful WS is. They really are like playground bullies who threaten to beat you up if you don't give them your lunch money.

 

OK....

 

We have gone off what the topic of the thread was. Assuming a WS who is doing everything they are supposed to and is remorseful, what should a BS do, after they have decided to reconcile, to help and insure a good reconciliation.

 

I understand that there are story's abounding of WS not really reconciling, or being a pain in the a$$ in general. I would state, that you would need to look at you marriage in all aspects and decide if you would like to divorce. Remember, we have what a WS should do, we have what a BS should do to end the affair, start and get a divorce, and we have the 180, and the NC rules. Again, assume both want to reconcile, and are honest in their attempt

 

Two questions:

 

1) For those that want to stay together, for the BS that wants to reconcile, and has a WS who gets it, what can they do?

 

2) For the BS, that has a WS, that may not be capable of true remorse, or may not be good at showing they understand, but are walking the straight and narrow, what should they do to make things better?

 

.

[Sub]

Two questions:

 

1) For those that want to stay together, for the BS that wants to reconcile, and has a WS who gets it, what can they do?

 

2) For the BS, that has a WS, that may not be capable of true remorse, or may not be good at showing they understand, but are walking the straight and narrow, what should they do to make things better?

 

.

 

Not to be flip, but is there a 1.5? I feel like my WW "gets it" half the time, and doesn't understand the other half. In fairness, I'm probably likewise split in two: I don't get how she chose to do such a f**ked up thing, yet understand why she wasn't necessarily happy. So I guess my responsibility is understanding the conflict that occurs.

[katielee]

OK....

 

 

2) For the BS, that has a WS, that may not be capable of true remorse, or may not be good at showing they understand, but are walking the straight and narrow, what should they do to make things better?

 

.

Work on making other parts of their life bigger, lower expectations, be grateful for the good times. Possibly drink therapeutically relaxing liquids.

[MuddyFootprints]

Push outside of your comfort zone when it comes to communication.

[ShatteredLady]

I really understand the thought behind this thread. As said, there are basic 'rules' stated for the WS to follow. The OW/OM to recover so it would be great to have a 1-10 steps for the bs.

 

It's not the same!

 

1. If you're an abusive or completely neglectful BS prior to the affair....STOP!

 

2. Communicate.

 

What else is there really? You have NO control over what's happening & then you're thrown into shock & agony & confusion. Reality has changed.

 

ALL marriages have issues if you REALLY want to dig into it. ALL relationships do. I could make a list of the things my parents & kids do that aren't exactly perfect. Would I change them for the world? Some character traits mean other traits so you have to take the good with the bad.

 

Unless the marriage is in real trouble because of HUGE issues what can a bs do?

 

Deal with your trauma (hopefully with lots of support) & slowly recover.

 

Don't be a vengeful, hateful, bully to your WS....but that's about being a decent human being!! It's like saying "Don't murder your WS!". Some do but I'm not sure we need it in the 'rules'.

[understand50]

 

"Don't murder your WS!". Some do but I'm not sure we need it in the 'rules'.

 

I am not so sure sometimes......

 

SL, good post in all regards.

 

Good luck.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think in many cases the BS may "feel" something is not quite right in the relationship prior to the betrayal...but they don't know what....

 

I can assure you....if i had 'TOLD' john what was wrong with me...the man would have done everything in his power to make me happy. He has lived 44 years doing his best to make me a happy wife. It was me that changed not him.

 

It had to be me that "fixed" me afterwards as well.

 

The problem is...the infidelity breaks both of you....I broke us....it was up to me to figure out how to fix us....and i failed miserably for many years. He was so broken by what i had done...he too became a cheater. He became self destructive. He hoped I would pull the plug on us...because it was not in his nature to give up.

 

But I clung tighter.....and because we both became so determined to hang on to each other.....we got better.

 

This healing thing is not easy....and there are so many dynamics involved....and each couple has their own set of issues so that one size fits all cures don't always apply.

 

IT takes both people....to fix the marriage....both people have to be equally determined to hang on for the duration.

 

John has taught me endurance...he has taught me forgiveness....he has taught me acceptance...each was a hard lesson for me....but today as we celebrate our 44th anniversary....I stand in awe what determination and love can accomplish.

 

We are not special in any way....we are normal everyday people....who have had a tragedy in our lives....and in spite of that tragedy...we have come out on the other side...full of happiness and love and peace....and we deserve it.

[Liam1]

Yes this^^^ and in my WH's case I'm not even sure that me making him feel special even counts. I made my WH feel special prior to Dday but it wasn't enough. I again tried to make him feel special in R, but that wasn't enough. For some WS's external validation is where they get their "special" from. My WH falls into this category. What he really needs to explore is how HE can feel special without anyone's validation.

 

Maybe we will understand your point more after this question^ has been answered because usually it is BOTH the BS and the WS that contributes to the breakdown of the M yet only one chose to step out and drop a nuke on the whole M.

 

You need to reconcile those two quotes. You posted both quotes, but in one you seem to absolve yourself of any wrong doing prior to your husband's Affair.

 

Is it possible your husband dropped the "nuke" of an affair on you because you were blind to your own faults.

 

Personally, I don't see an affair as a "nuke." To me it is way to solve a problem. It is away to address deficits in the marriage without dropping the "nuke" of divorce.

 

You seem to be trapped in your marriage, based on your own words.

 

But neither my wife or I are or were.

 

We both work in parallel professions and earn comparable pay.

 

Divorce certainly would have been easier for me. But that is then total destruction of the marriage without any chance for recovery. That's a nuke. An affair is not dropping a nuke on the marriage, it's starting a fire perhaps one that has a chance to be put out.

[ladydesigner]

You need to reconcile those two quotes. You posted both quotes, but in one you seem to absolve yourself of any wrong doing prior to your husband's Affair.

 

Is it possible your husband dropped the "nuke" of an affair on you because you were blind to your own faults.

 

Personally, I don't see an affair as a "nuke." To me it is way to solve a problem. It is away to address deficits in the marriage without dropping the "nuke" of divorce.

 

You seem to be trapped in your marriage, based on your own words.

 

But neither my wife or I are or were.

 

We both work in parallel professions and earn comparable pay.

 

Divorce certainly would have been easier for me. But that is then total destruction of the marriage without any chance for recovery. That's a nuke. An affair is not dropping a nuke on the marriage, it's starting a fire perhaps one that has a chance to be put out.

 

Well Liam you never answered the question and yes an A is a nuke on M, like it or not you ask any BS here and they will tell you the same. We will have to just agree to disagree on this one. If I were your wife I'd be holding your feet to the fire if not D with that attitude.

[ladydesigner]

You need to reconcile those two quotes. You posted both quotes, but in one you seem to absolve yourself of any wrong doing prior to your husband's Affair.

 

Is it possible your husband dropped the "nuke" of an affair on you because you were blind to your own faults.

 

Personally, I don't see an affair as a "nuke." To me it is way to solve a problem. It is away to address deficits in the marriage without dropping the "nuke" of divorce.

 

You seem to be trapped in your marriage, based on your own words.

 

But neither my wife or I are or were.

 

We both work in parallel professions and earn comparable pay.

 

Divorce certainly would have been easier for me. But that is then total destruction of the marriage without any chance for recovery. That's a nuke. An affair is not dropping a nuke on the marriage, it's starting a fire perhaps one that has a chance to be put out.

 

my WH's faults should have cause me to have an A first. I'm sure my WH would like to see it this way too, but this sh*t just doesn't fly with me.

[HereNorThere]

You need to reconcile those two quotes. You posted both quotes, but in one you seem to absolve yourself of any wrong doing prior to your husband's Affair.

 

Is it possible your husband dropped the "nuke" of an affair on you because you were blind to your own faults.

 

Personally, I don't see an affair as a "nuke." To me it is way to solve a problem. It is away to address deficits in the marriage without dropping the "nuke" of divorce.

 

You seem to be trapped in your marriage, based on your own words.

 

But neither my wife or I are or were.

 

We both work in parallel professions and earn comparable pay.

 

Divorce certainly would have been easier for me. But that is then total destruction of the marriage without any chance for recovery. That's a nuke. An affair is not dropping a nuke on the marriage, it's starting a fire perhaps one that has a chance to be put out.

 

 

I think someone would have to work pretty to hard to rationalize the idea that affairs somehow solve problems in marriages. Affairs don't solve problems, they are the problem.

 

But I do think it's important that we all see the kind of rationalization that takes place in someone's mind before, during and after an affair. You have to be pretty far away from reality to think that an affair is a positive thing for a marriage. I would venture to say that's about as close to delusion as you could probably get without complete insanity but it seems to be common among WS.

 

I think the better question we can ask of this type wild rationalization and justification is - Does having an affair skew your viewpoint to the point you could believe something this outlandish or did you believe something this outlandish before you had the affair? I can't imagine someone marrying a person who believed that affairs were a positive thing, so I have assume these rationalizations came later. I think most of them are driven by cognitive dissonance.

 

When most people's actions do not line up to their beliefs, they change their actions. In this case, it seems like you decided to change your belief system instead. In my experience, not all people are capable of this. I just wonder if the affair makes people this way, or they were already this way and that's what lead to having affairs?

[Liam1]

OK....

 

We have gone off what the topic of the thread was. Assuming a WS who is doing everything they are supposed to and is remorseful, what should a BS do, after they have decided to reconcile, to help and insure a good reconciliation.

 

I understand that there are story's abounding of WS not really reconciling, or being a pain in the a$$ in general. I would state, that you would need to look at you marriage in all aspects and decide if you would like to divorce. Remember, we have what a WS should do, we have what a BS should do to end the affair, start and get a divorce, and we have the 180, and the NC rules. Again, assume both want to reconcile, and are honest in their attempt

 

Two questions:

 

1) For those that want to stay together, for the BS that wants to reconcile, and has a WS who gets it, what can they do?

 

2) For the BS, that has a WS, that may not be capable of true remorse, or may not be good at showing they understand, but are walking the straight and narrow, what should they do to make things better?

 

.

 

To answer your two questions:

 

1 - What the BS needs to do to reconcile properly is:

 

The BS needs to stop childishly insisting they did nothing wrong. It's like two five year olds pointing fingers at each other with neither admitting to any wrong doing. Come on. Give me a break.

 

I have never broken up a dispute where two normal five year olds actually each did nothing to contribute to the dispute or to escalate it.

 

My BS did not childishly refuse to acknowledge fault. She accepted responsibility for her part that led to the affair. I accepted my part in having the affair.

 

As someone else mentioned our reconciliation taught me a lot about unconditional love, and it is the reason our reconciliation is working.

 

If she had not, I would have filed for divorce fairly quickly.

 

Some people may not file for divorce when a BS continues to hold the affair over the WS's head, because they are trapped financially. My wife and I are not trapped financially.

 

 

2 - What the WS needs to do is:

 

End the affair and seek counseling and listen to the counselors advice on how to proceed.

 

IMO, most WS's who want to salvage the marriage will automatically be remorseful.

 

What I see, however, time and again are a lot of BS's who want to hold the affair over the WS's head forever as a way to hold the moral high ground, at least in their own minds.

 

They say well if the WS was unhappy why did they NOT divorce.

 

Yet the BS is now unhappy but they have not divorced.

 

Don't they see the irony. Or are they too locked in denial of their own faults?

 

In those cases, where the BS is still embracing martyrdom, my guess is the WS will likely have another affair because the marriage is still dysfunctional and the BS will not budge an inch in admitting fault, and likely never did prior to the affair. The WS will not divorce PROBABLY because the WS is trapped financially in the marriage.

 

When I see someone insisting that they did nothing in the marriage that led to the affair, it just makes me sad for them. Again, it's like two squabbling five-year-olds both insisting they did nothing to instigate or escalate the squabble.

 

The caveat to all of the above being that if the WS has personality disorder like NPD or HPD, the BS may actually not be at fault.

 

In those cases, the BS may not have done anything egregious to instigate an affair, but then if the WS has a PD, the BS should wisely divorce because apparently personality disorders are highly resistant to correction through counseling.

 

Than again, some people have affairs because the so named "loyal spouse has the Personality disorder.

[ladydesigner]

But I do think it's important that we all see the kind of rationalization that takes place in someone's mind before, during and after an affair. You have to be pretty far away from reality to think that an affair is a positive thing for a marriage. I would venture to say that's about as close to delusion as you could probably get without complete insanity but it seems to be common among WS.

 

Case in point. Great post HereNorThere