There are responsibilities for a BS in reconciliation.

[elaine567]

For example.....lets say your spouse denies you sex. You simply say to your spouse...look...I need sex....do you mind if I find it elsewhere?

 

Your spouse may say...hey...I don't care what you do...just don't tell me....or Go ahead and have sex with others...but please only see a prostitute and use protection.....or

 

HELL NO you cannot have sex with someone else....and if you do...we are finished!

 

Now...the cards are all on the table....no one is sneaking ...or lying whether bold faced or by omission.

 

But when one spouse chooses to secretly have sex with someone else....without permission.....it is adultery...and the responsibility of the action lies solely on the wayward.

 

REGARDLESS of the pre affair condition of the marriage.

 

BUT it is all conflict avoidance really..

It takes courage to say,

"I am not getting enough sex here or I need variety, would you mind if I got it elsewhere?"

They are worried about the consequences of that "solution".

 

What? You obviously don't love me any more, I am taking the kids to my mothers and divorcing you.

OR

What? YOU disgusting creature. Ugh!

Silent treatment for the rest of life...

OR

OK, I always turned down Bob/Betty before, but now we can have some fun... (not perhaps the response they wanted).

 

Much easier to maintain the status quo, no boats rocked, just indulge in sneaky sex.

[Mrs. John Adams]

There is a huge difference in explaining the condition of the marriage pre affair and blaming the betrayed spouse post affair.

 

I understand that every relationship has "conditions" pre affair...and those should certainly be addressed when discussing infidelity.

 

But to blatantly come here and say my betrayed spouse is at fault for not giving me sex and she accepts that fault....is absolutely triggering and devastating for some betrayed spouses who read it.

 

While denying sex is certainly an issue in a marriage.....the choice to have sex outside of the marriage....is NOT the fault of the betrayed....

 

there are other ways to handle it.....

 

You can justify all you want.....you can blame shift all you want....and if your betrayed spouse accepts these things as part of your reconciliation...wonderful

 

The problem I personally have with it is the damage it does to those betrayed spouses still struggling with their own situations...

 

The very last thing they need to do...is to buy into this concept and BLAME themselves for the selfish and vulgar behavior of their wayward spouses.

 

Most books...most therapists...certainly do not believe that this concept of blaming the betrayed for the vile behavior of the wayward is acceptable.

 

As a matter of fact they teach the exact opposite.

[understand50]

Well, we are again off topic, but I think the original one has run it course.

 

Yes, your spouse has 50% of the marriage issues, but a WS owns 100% of the affair, past your spouse agreeing to a open marriage, there is no excuse for it.

 

Now after the affair, and with a WS who is doing everything right, at this point the BS must own their part of issues in the marriage. This does not excuse the WS for the cheating by no means, nor does it justify the affair in any way. We need to keep in mind that the marriage could have been good, but the WS, got caught up in a situation they could not handle, and were taken advantage of. This dose not excuse, as in the end, they decided to have sex outside the marriage. They could have decide to "just" do it because they had the opportunity and did not think they would be caught. They are self centered, and decide this is what they wanted. Cheating happens in good marriages with moth husbands and wife's.

 

Then there are the "morally" deficient, who will have affairs, as part of there being or the WS who believes that they are entitled, as the marriage is not what they wanted. In all cases, cheating in a marriage, with out a agreement from your spouse, is wrong.

 

Your solution, if you want sex outside that marriage, is only two ways: Open marriage, or separation.

 

My two cents.

[elaine567]

In marriages there is often a more dominant spouse and sometimes I get the impression that the WSs who seem to want the BS to take the rap for the cheating, are most likely dominant spouses, is that how it works?

It also got me thinking are WSs often the more dominant spouse of the two?

[heartwhole]

In marriages there is often a more dominant spouse and sometimes I get the impression that the WSs who seem to want the BS to take the rap for the cheating, are most likely dominant spouses, is that how it works?

It also got me thinking are WSs often the more dominant spouse of the two?

 

Our MC really hit home for us how WH was the dominant spouse, though he certainly saw it differently. In his mind, I was dominant because I am direct and ask for what I need. We both didn't see just how much he took and I gave. We are working on a new dynamic where I don't feel guilty or bad for having needs or for life getting in the way of what he wants sometimes.

[Liam1]

Well, we are again off topic, but I think the original one has run it course.

 

Yes, your spouse has 50% of the marriage issues, but a WS owns 100% of the affair, past your spouse agreeing to a open marriage, there is no excuse for it.

 

Now after the affair, and with a WS who is doing everything right, at this point the BS must own their part of issues in the marriage. This does not excuse the WS for the cheating by no means, nor does it justify the affair in any way. We need to keep in mind that the marriage could have been good, but the WS, got caught up in a situation they could not handle, and were taken advantage of. This dose not excuse, as in the end, they decided to have sex outside the marriage. They could have decide to "just" do it because they had the opportunity and did not think they would be caught. They are self centered, and decide this is what they wanted. Cheating happens in good marriages with moth husbands and wife's.

 

Then there are the "morally" deficient, who will have affairs, as part of there being or the WS who believes that they are entitled, as the marriage is not what they wanted. In all cases, cheating in a marriage, with out a agreement from your spouse, is wrong.

 

Your solution, if you want sex outside that marriage, is only two ways: Open marriage, or separation.

 

My two cents.

 

I agree with the majority of your post.

 

However, there are many BS's who have been making the other spouse's life a living hell. They refuse counseling when asked because they see themselves as the perfect spouse. Thus, in their mind there is no reason for counseling.

 

Why should a spouse married to someone who has changed the rules after 20 years of marriage give up half in a divorce. The marriage has been crappy for years what difference does it matter if he/she stays married.

 

People may not like to hear this but it's true. A lot of people have affairs because they are trapped financially in a crappy hell of a marriage.

 

Perhaps they are trapped in a marriage where the BS insists they NEVER do anything wrong. The BS over spends. They complain constantly and nag about nothing. They ridicule the spouse or treat him/her like an idiot. Badmouth the spouse to friends and relatives.

 

Okay so the BS never had an affair, but after 20 years of being a good enough spouse they suddenly turned into a terrible spouse, does that give them the moral high ground when the other desperate spouse finally cracks and has an affair? I don't see it that way.

 

Also, perhaps it is a wayward wife who has never worked, why should she leave the marriage and put herself into poverty. Why should it not be the responsibility of the difficult spouse get therapy.

 

Then, too, some here have mentioned the vow of "in sickness and in health" Then they go on to describe a person who appears to have had a nervous breakdown because they got fired or their father died or whatever. They had an affair as a way to cope with their mental breakdown.

 

Should not then the "in sickness and in health vow" take into consideration, a mental health breakdown as well as a physical break down.

 

I agree with Old Rover that sometimes the wayward spouse is a total lout and the BS has only minor flaws and they are the one GIVING more in the marriage.

 

However, IMO, if the WS is cheating for no reason at all then he/she likely has a Personality Disorder. In those cases they will almost always refuse therapy and In those cases, the BS is usually innoncent of any misbehavior in the marriage.

 

In the end, though, none of the above matters. If one wants to save their marriage and the childish finger pointing has to stop and the REAL issues on both side need to be addressed in a mature fashion by both sides.

[katielee]

Understand, I agree with everything you said except the fact that the WS is taken advantage of. I believe most are not. I believe most BS don't have much work to do other than heal from being betrayed. If their spouse had not had an affair would you say the BS STILL has work to do? Because that's what's being implied, that there is something wrong with the BS in addition to being betrayed. Very unfair,

[katielee]

I'm wondering where you are getting your statistics, Liam. The books, research and online infidelity forums do not support your claims.

[dreamingoftigers]

Well, we are again off topic, but I think the original one has run it course.

 

Yes, your spouse has 50% of the marriage issues, but a WS owns 100% of the affair, past your spouse agreeing to a open marriage, there is no excuse for it.

 

Now after the affair, and with a WS who is doing everything right, at this point the BS must own their part of issues in the marriage. This does not excuse the WS for the cheating by no means, nor does it justify the affair in any way. We need to keep in mind that the marriage could have been good, but the WS, got caught up in a situation they could not handle, and were taken advantage of. This dose not excuse, as in the end, they decided to have sex outside the marriage. They could have decide to "just" do it because they had the opportunity and did not think they would be caught. They are self centered, and decide this is what they wanted. Cheating happens in good marriages with moth husbands and wife's.

 

Then there are the "morally" deficient, who will have affairs, as part of there being or the WS who believes that they are entitled, as the marriage is not what they wanted. In all cases, cheating in a marriage, with out a agreement from your spouse, is wrong.

 

Your solution, if you want sex outside that marriage, is only two ways: Open marriage, or separation.

 

My two cents.

 

I do actually take issue with even the bolded.

 

I don't believe that I (AND MANY BS'S) own 50% of the marital problems.

 

Sometimes we marry someone that has covered (or isn't aware of) their OWN issues when we marry.

 

For instance, the Fred Armisten and Elizabeth Moss scenario. He's a total mess. The interviews he's given post-divorce CLEARLY reflect this. He has no problems openly admitting to basically nailing everything that moves. Moss was younger and obviously much more naive. She said the best impersonation he ever did was "that of a normal person" which is precisely how many sociopaths etc operate.

 

This is a man who went into a marriage, knowing he was a total screwball who says he "feels bad for everyone that EVER went out with him."

 

He wasn't waiting for a "marital breakdown" or a "lack of sex" or "[burned chicken on Tuesday night]" to cheat on Moss. He was waiting for his next opportunity.

 

Presupposing Moss owned "50% of the marital issues" suggests that she had a greater share of influence or control of the condition of the relationship, which would have basically been fraud at best.

 

My father is a diabetic alcoholic that is constantly a sad-sack entitled man. Who "owns half" of those marital issues? Surely not my mother whose sacrificed more than 40 years trying to help and understanding the big lying idiot. Who also cheated on her and rubbed it in ALL of our faces. Yes, that's right, he bragged about his mistress' underwear that he bought her at La Senza to ME, HIS DAUGHTER. You can't tell me that my mother's FORTY years of dedication to that "man" caused fifty percent of the "marital issues" that "led to an affair."

 

Frankly, I don't even think my father was having any sort of "crisis" until after discovery where he discovered that no one really liked him thereafter. Nor has he ever apologized to me about his behaviour including his post D-day harassment of ME. He has however, taken time out to rage at me for having the nerve to call the police TWICE on him after he threatened suicide with his firearms. Apparently me wanting his mental health evaluated so he didn't kill himself (and possibly others) is categorically unforgivable.

 

In short, my father is a train-wreck who is his own worst enemy that doesn't even recognize the only member in his fan club many days (my mother).

 

In fact, he currently rages about "the diet she put him on." Which she didn't put him on. His doctor told him the ONLY chance of saving his foot from his diabetic alcoholism is to change his eating IMMEDIATELY, and he's known for years he needs to do this. So he takes his crap out on my mother, who literally has nothing to do with his diet.

 

My mother caused "50%" of those marital issues like she caused "50%" of his alcoholism and "50%" of his diabetes.

 

Now my father will probably get to keep 50% of his feet. And whose fault is that?

 

100% HIS.

 

The idea that Partner A owns 50% and Partner B owns 50% of the PROBLEMS in the marriage suggests that they went in as clean slates, healthy and responsible people. But we KNOW that isn't USUALLY the case.

 

Sometimes someone brings 90% of the issues to the table. Sometimes 10%.

 

When someone sets out to deceive you, they are already ten steps ahead of you. And sometimes you've got so much invested by the time you find out what a nightmare they are, it is intensely difficult to extricate yourself from it.

 

BTW, I strongly suspect my father is cheating on my mother AGAIN. And furthermore, I don't doubt he did smatterings of encounters when I was younger. He IS NOT a loyal man and does not seem to be governed by any internal principles. He actually talks A LOT like Donald Trump and is about as divisive etc. Can't shut up about his money either. Racist. Rude. Acts like he's being victimized. Ugh. Every time my husband turns on CNN, I get my childhood issues triggered. And like my father, DT has his totally blinded supporters who don't see the train that is going to hit them as they follow this man over a cliff.

 

Seriously, how could ANYONE ELSE own 50% of those issues?

[wmacbride]

One of the first things our marriage counselor did at our first appointment was to ask us both if we wnated to stay married, as that would indicate to her which tack she should take.

 

We both said yes, and she began to help us heal from the A.

 

Once we were both in a frame of mind where we were both feeling like we were in a better place, she told us that we needed to begin to talk about issues in our marriage, and she made it clear that there was no room for " I cheated, but you did x, y and z so therefore, I had an excuse". She also said that there was no room for " I might be treating you badly, but you had an A, so therefore, I have an excuse". She said that can have the result of making healing take a lot loner, and can even put a reconciliation back many steps.

 

A counseling method she used with us, and it worked really well, was to ask us both to treat the marriage from that point out as a fresh slate, and for both of use to try and let go of the past, to talk about things that bothered us, and if we found it hard to put into words verbally, then to write it out.

 

Something else she suggested was that every day, we thank each other for something nice we had done for one another throughout the day, even if it was small. she made the really good point that it's really easy to forget sometimes the good things your husband or wife does and only focus on the bad, whether you are a bs or a ws. She also recommended that we celebrate small milestones that we were making every day.

 

One step at a time will get you where you want to go.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I agree with the majority of your post.

 

However, there are many BS's who have been making the other spouse's life a living hell. They refuse counseling when asked because they see themselves as the perfect spouse. Thus, in their mind there is no reason for counseling.

 

Why should a spouse married to someone who has changed the rules after 20 years of marriage give up half in a divorce. The marriage has been crappy for years what difference does it matter if he/she stays married.

 

People may not like to hear this but it's true. A lot of people have affairs because they are trapped financially in a crappy hell of a marriage.

 

Perhaps they are trapped in a marriage where the BS insists they NEVER do anything wrong. The BS over spends. They complain constantly and nag about nothing. They ridicule the spouse or treat him/her like an idiot. Badmouth the spouse to friends and relatives.

 

Okay so the BS never had an affair, but after 20 years of being a good enough spouse they suddenly turned into a terrible spouse, does that give them the moral high ground when the other desperate spouse finally cracks and has an affair? I don't see it that way.

 

Also, perhaps it is a wayward wife who has never worked, why should she leave the marriage and put herself into poverty. Why should it not be the responsibility of the difficult spouse get therapy.

 

Then, too, some here have mentioned the vow of "in sickness and in health" Then they go on to describe a person who appears to have had a nervous breakdown because they got fired or their father died or whatever. They had an affair as a way to cope with their mental breakdown.

 

Should not then the "in sickness and in health vow" take into consideration, a mental health breakdown as well as a physical break down.

 

I agree with Old Rover that sometimes the wayward spouse is a total lout and the BS has only minor flaws and they are the one GIVING more in the marriage.

 

However, IMO, if the WS is cheating for no reason at all then he/she likely has a Personality Disorder. In those cases they will almost always refuse therapy and In those cases, the BS is usually innoncent of any misbehavior in the marriage.

 

In the end, though, none of the above matters. If one wants to save their marriage and the childish finger pointing has to stop and the REAL issues on both side need to be addressed in a mature fashion by both sides.

 

 

This post is nothing but finger-pointing.

 

Why should a SAHWW give up any of life's luxuries that her BH is providing?

 

Because a SAHWW is not entitled to cherry-pick.

 

Being an adult means one takes responsibility for their choices/actions/words.

 

Being an adult is not "Sally called me a name so I punched her in the face.....it's all Sally's fault".

 

There is no "but" or "he/she did this"......it is owning ones choices/actions/words that one did. . It is not excusing our own poor behaviour. It is not taking the personal inventory of those that we have hurt....which only serves to justify/pacify our own ego.

 

Parents and educators spend much time teaching children these life lessons.

 

It really is sad to see how many accomplished "adults" failed kindergarten.

[jasmineb]

Being an adult means one takes responsibility for their choices/actions/words.

 

Being an adult is not "Sally called me a name so I punched her in the face.....it's all Sally's fault".

 

There is no "but" or "he/she did this"......it is owning ones choices/actions/words that one did. . It is not excusing our own poor behaviour. It is not taking the personal inventory of those that we have hurt....which only serves to justify/pacify our own ego.

 

Parents and educators spend much time teaching children these life lessons.

 

It really is sad to see how many accomplished "adults" failed kindergarten.

 

This is excellent. In fact, I would say to any BS that until their WS has managed to PASS kindergarten (aka they take responsibility for their hurtful choice and cease to be proud of it), the BS really has ZERO responsibilities, as reconciliation has not even begun. The first step is NC and taking responsibility for cheating. If those things have not been done, there is no reconciliation...no matter how much the BS may have been brow-beaten into taking blame for the WS' extracurricular sex life.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Well...some people may buy into the philosophy that the betrayed spouse is responsible for the wayward cheating.....but I absolutely do not.

 

I have been married 44 years...33 years after my affair...which i am completely and totally responsible for.

 

 

The important thing is...if you are happy and you buy the idea that your betrayed spouse is accountable for you porking someone else...wonderful...let me know how much resentment settles in after a few years of brow beating them into thinking it was they who cheated and not you.

[katielee]

Some people? I think just one wayward here.

[OneLov]

What must a BS do to make the reconciliation work?

 

This is assuming, and this can be a big assumption, that the WS is a former WS, and is doing everything that is asked for and accepted to reconcile.

 

One thing this thread made clear to me:

 

Be patient. He/she must have an incredible amount of patience.

[Furious]

Keeping with topic, the "responsibility" of a betrayed spouse seems to be confused with taking "blame" in some way. Some feel compelled that responsibility and blame are one and the same. I highly doubt that reconciliation is sincere if blame is a proponent of a healthy reconciliation.

 

 

At any given time throughout a marriage there will be conflict and issues, I guess at one point or another is could be easier to cheat and finger point blame. It's astounding how often WS's do this. Infidelity involves a single affair partner, or a married affair partner, or even a paid for encounter and that it must be addressed and not be swept under the carpet. The dynamic of infidelity is not only about the marriage but also about the dynamic of the circumstance of other parties involved in the infidelity. It's a situation that involves three to four individuals and one or two family units.

 

The irony is that as much as a WS may complain of the faults in their spouse they may cheat with someone who may have as many or more faults. Also, it diminishes the audacious argument by a WS to justify and blame shift. To expect more from a spouse than an affair partner seems counter productive and gives less credibility to the character of the WS.

 

Just seems irrational to finger point at the betrayed spouse's failings but it seems rather hypocritical to engage in cheating and not see that a major failing too.

[Mrs. John Adams]

One thing this thread made clear to me:

 

Be patient. He/she must have an incredible amount of patience.

 

 

John wins this one...the man gave me thirty years to understand remorse.....and remorse is not placing the blame of my infidelity on him...geez

[wmacbride]

John wins this one...the man gave me thirty years to understand remorse.....and remorse is not placing the blame of my infidelity on him...geez

 

Patience and remorse are gifts that you give one another. You have given him true remorse, and he has given you the gift of patience that gave you the time you needed to build it.

 

Very marriage will have its share of up and downs, with infidelity being a major "down". You both learned and grew form the experience, and I expect that knowledge and grace carried over to other areas of your life together as well.

[jasmineb]

refusing sex with a spouse, barring a health issue, is wrong

 

I can agree with this wholeheartedly.

 

I have to ask, though, do counselors not also say that cheating on one's spouse is wrong?

 

I have to say, any counselor whose response to someone's cheating is to turn to the betrayed and say "you deserve it" is NOT an infidelity counselor. They are most like an infidelity facilitator and excuser.

 

So....now that we have more than established that sexual refusal is wrong.....is cheating on one's spouse and breaking the vow of fidelity wrong?

[jasmineb]

Personally, I feel that refusing sex is cheating, too.

 

I actually fully agree with this. 100%

 

Sex is one of THE fundamental things that separates a romantic relationship from every other type of relationship. And no matter what Gloria Steinem says, it IS implied when one marries that sex WILL be part of the deal. Refusing sex or making your partner earn sex with some elaborate hoop obstacle course is selfish, cruel, and a breaking of the vow to love and cherish. And pulling a bait and switch is every bit as much of a lie as an affair.

 

Where you lose me is with this idea that if someone does something wrong to me FIRST, then whatever I do in response is fine because I had a reason. I don't like the idea of my choices being someone else's responsibility. I don't think me admitting my wrong takes away from someone else's wrong.

 

But yes, I believe intentional sexual refusal IS a very hurtful type of unfaithfulness.

[Robert]

This thread has devolved into members posting numerous violations of our civility and respect guidelines, so we'll consider this closed. ~6