Friends, boundaries, weakness

[Grapesofwrath]

Given some of the current threads open right now, I thought it might be time for an update.

 

After successfully "breaking up" with xMM back in September for a few weeks, I agreed to his suggestion that we could still be friends. At first, we only met in public, shared some food or a drink, and parted company. That didn't last terribly long. One night, while walking down the street, I looked up to see tears in his eyes. I asked him what was wrong, and he said "I'm lost without you." And I caved. Whether this was an intentional or unintentional manipulation on his part, it worked, and it was not long before we were back in the A, albeit in a much more limited way due to his changing circumstances.

 

(You can read about the past situation here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/other-man-woman/521476-reckoning)

 

Instead of spending the night with me 2-3 nights/week, he would spend a few hours with me a couple nights a week. He had to be mindful of the time, so his niece would not question him when he got home. He was under increased scrutiny by her and other family members who would come by the house unexpectedly. (I wondered if his wife was suspicious that he was philandering and so the family was circling the wagons.) We were not always intimate during these evenings. Sometimes we just had dinner and watched a game on TV or listened to music and talked. I reduced my expectations and needs to a point where they could fit into this little confined space, while also telling myself that I was open to meeting someone single. Even trying some online dating and other pointless gestures. Nothing came of that, of course.

 

I was in a constant state of inner conflict about the continued relationship. I was insulted and angry about the diminished time together. I was lonely and felt like something is better than nothing (it's not, by the way.) More and more I found myself feeling disdain and disgust toward him and his continued lying, and toward myself for allowing it to continue. As time passed, I saw more and more of who he really is as a father/husband/businessman and it was not attractive. I guess it just took a while for my heart to catch up with my head. Once it did, I was ready to end it for real.

 

The final straw was seeing him one night, just snuggling and talking, and then he had to leave. On leaving, he said he loved me and missed seeing me more often, like before. A couple days later he called to say he would be "out of pocket" while on vacation with his family. And poof...no word for 10 days. Knowing him, I knew he would not contact me during his vacation, but would do so the first thing Monday morning, once it was safe. He did exactly that, and something in me snapped. It took longer than I would have liked it to take, but finally my heart caught up with my head.

 

I responded only to tell him that we needed to talk. I arranged a time for that, and told him, briefly, that the A was over. I have severed all contact and, frankly, it has been easy because I was ready. When I tried to do it prematurely, it was painful and anxiety-provoking and ultimately didn't stick.

 

What has been less easy--and the reason why I'm back on LS--is processing the anger I feel toward him. Now that I am out of the fog, I no longer see him as this sweet, confused, loving guy who just lacked the self-awareness to understand his situation. Now I see him as a selfish opportunist who takes every chance in life to get things for himself, regardless of the lying and deception that might be involved. I've seen him do it with me, with work, and with his "friends."

 

I started to think about all the lies I know he told his wife, and all the lies I'm sure he has told to me. I imagined what it feels like for her. I recalled that he told me after one weekend that she questioned him about why he was so distant and asked if he was having an affair. Of course, he denied it and gaslighted her. I tried to imagine that scene and feel it from her perspective.

 

It's also not so easy to examine my own issues, but I'm working on that all the time. Meditating. Taking care of myself. Working out. Spending time with friends. It's been about 6 weeks since we've seen each other. I couldn't be more relieved that I finally did it.

[Minnie09]

Wow. Good for you. How did he handle it? After all, as far as I remember, your A had been going on for a few years.

 

Sometimes we just need that one special moment that makes us realize that we really don't want to be in that situation anymore. That one situation that all of a sudden makes us lose all respect for the other person, even after so many years.

[anyonecandoit]

I think I can understand what you say here. Although people will question me in my situation that you didn't even communicate then how can you feel? I think my emotional ups and downs are like what you described. And sometimes I think, if we do have physical contact and communication, the process would be like what most of the people have experience here as well.

 

Right now I'm on LS because of anger. I have found that I become very angry these days and sometimes I don't even quite understand what I'm angry about. Am I angry about me or am I angry about him or am I angry about this whole thing, or am I angry about he gets back to his life without losing anything and still showing that he is such a good man?

 

But I think after all those emotional ups and downs, I think eventually I will come to a peaceful mind and let it go.

[anyonecandoit]

And sometimes I think the anger might come from the part that people gossip around it. I say this not because I care so much about what people think of me. I say this because I feel those people that gossip, they seem to be so indifferent(I'm not their friend or family and I can understand that). But it seems to me like that they build their joy in life in someone else's misery. And they're just there waiting for the joke to happen. Honestly speaking, I have no respect for these people.

[Grapesofwrath]

Wow. Good for you. How did he handle it? After all, as far as I remember, your A had been going on for a few years.

 

Sometimes we just need that one special moment that makes us realize that we really don't want to be in that situation anymore. That one situation that all of a sudden makes us lose all respect for the other person, even after so many years.

 

Minnie: The A lasted for 10 months in the first phase (let's call it the Double Life phase) and then another 7 months in the second phase. At moments, it has felt like years, but really it was just 17 months, all in. 17 months too long.

[anyonecandoit]

Minnie: The A lasted for 10 months in the first phase (let's call it the Double Life phase) and then another 7 months in the second phase. At moments, it has felt like years, but really it was just 17 months, all in. 17 months too long.

 

Even the timeline seems similar. For me, the first phase lasted about 6 months. Then he went back to get engaged. Then After the engagement he came back again and that lasted about 10 months. Finally, I hope it's over.

[Lovetoohard]

Grapes, it's good to hear that you're focusing on your issues and understanding what it is that caused you to engage in an affair in the first place. I have been doing a lot of that myself for the last few months and it's not an easy process. I can completely relate to breaking it off prematurely, falling back into it, and then finally cutting it off for real because your heart has finally caught up to the logical part of the brain. There is only so much a human can tolerate and while everyone's threshold level for emotional pain is different, you just know when you've reached that point and it's like this lightbulb just automatically goes off and all of a sudden, you realize how dysfunctional it all is and how far off course you've gone. The anger you are feeling is part of this realization. I am not an angry person by nature but even I found that it evoked such strong feelings of hatred and rage in me that I was uncomfortable with the intensity of it (and it still occasionally happens).

 

I haven't severed all contact with xMM. I don't initiate contact with him, but he reaches out occassonally, and when he does, I respond cordially and keep it short. I steer clear of any overly personal topics and cut the conversation short if he's venturing into dangerous territory and tell him to focus on his wife and kids. I haven't heard from him in over a couple of months so hopefully he's getting tired of the guard i've put up. Are we really friends? No. I don't think we are friends in a true sense. First, we have mutual friends, colleagues, and acquaintances, and are in a very close knit professional circle, so that is part of the reason I am cordial. Second, I don't ever want to come across as a crazy, bitter, psycho - I gracefully bowed out when I just couldn't deal with the dysfunction anymore, and while I am privately battling with the aftermath, not maintaining a level of dignity and grace by being a jerk to him makes it all feel all the more worse (i've lashed out at him and been a bitch to him and it didn't feel good at all). Third, and probably most importantly, I cannot truly be friends with him - yes, that's the point our relationship started at, but it's not appropriate given our history and because that friendship is so beyond damaged, it's not salvageable at all. Also, I started seeing things from his wife's vantage point, and I simply couldn't maintain a friendship out of respect for her. So that's my boundary on the friendship aspect.

 

I am glad that you're focusing on you. That highly coveted sense of relief is something that's difficult to achieve in the post-affair context. When I get angry, I just have to let it pass and try to channel that negative energy towards something positive, like going for long walk or going to a kickboxing class or something. In addition to spending time with friends, are you thinking about venturing out into the dating world?

Edited April 5, 2016 by Lovetoohard

[13Hearts]

Minnie: The A lasted for 10 months in the first phase (let's call it the Double Life phase) and then another 7 months in the second phase. At moments, it has felt like years, but really it was just 17 months, all in. 17 months too long.

 

Here's how you get over the anger. If it really was 17 months too long, you won't want to waste even another day thinking about this guy, much less waste your emotional energy being angry at him. Acknowledge the part you played, accept that it was a mistake, forgive yourself for being human, and then forgive him for being a selfish p**ck. Read around, he's certainly not alone.

[Gloria25]

Geesh,

 

Reading this thread is like when I've gone to the club and not gotten drunk, and sat around watching people get drunk and silly.

 

What I'm trying to say is, yes, there was a point my posts sounded like the threads here...wondering about him, this that, bla bla...And, watching others post makes me want to grab them and just shake them out of it.

 

So, I hope that whomever is suffering can get to the point/place where I am at, where you realize what a mistake that MM was, there was nothing there, and time to move on already w/o even giving an ounce of thought/energy into such a piece of garbage and their wife (who's also a piece of garbage).

[whichwayisup]

What has been less easy--and the reason why I'm back on LS--is processing the anger I feel toward him. Now that I am out of the fog, I no longer see him as this sweet, confused, loving guy who just lacked the self-awareness to understand his situation. Now I see him as a selfish opportunist who takes every chance in life to get things for himself, regardless of the lying and deception that might be involved. I've seen him do it with me, with work, and with his "friends."

 

It's who he always was, glad you see him objectively now.

 

It's OK to feel that anger, it's part of your grieving and healing process. Embrace it, and push through it until you don't care anymore. Then in time, when you're ready, forgive him. And forgive yourself too.

[Grapesofwrath]

Geesh,

 

 

So, I hope that whomever is suffering can get to the point/place where I am at, where you realize what a mistake that MM was, there was nothing there, and time to move on already w/o even giving an ounce of thought/energy into such a piece of garbage and their wife (who's also a piece of garbage).

 

Gloria: How does any of this add up to the wife being "a piece of garbage?"

[anyonecandoit]

Gloria: How does any of this add up to the wife being "a piece of garbage?"

 

Actually, in my situation, I don't have any sympathy on his fiance at all. This is honestly speaking. After she and her family know about it, they treat him even better than before that they would be afraid to lose him(sorry I'm a stalker on FB, but I deactivated my FB account two days ago and I don't think I will go back lately).

 

And until yesterday, I discovered how much I have suffered(if everything is imagined, I could even be amazed how many things have I imagined!). I lost almost 15 pounds. I am a tall person. And right now I'm only 103lbs. But I think I'm almost out. So I'm glad to take the weight back on me.

[Gloria25]

Gloria: How does any of this add up to the wife being "a piece of garbage?"

 

Where do I start?

 

She's lazy, off-putting, manipulative, sloppy - and as water seeks its own level, she's on his level. They're a match (garbage + garbage).

 

Then, she wants to stare at me as if I've done anything to her marriage instead of focusing on the piece of trash she chose to be her husband.

[anyonecandoit]

Where do I start?

 

She's lazy, off-putting, manipulative, sloppy - and as water seeks its own level, she's on his level. They're a match (garbage + garbage).

 

Then, she wants to stare at me as if I've done anything to her marriage instead of focusing on the piece of trash she chose to be her husband.

 

Mine is similar. Actually, in my company, a lot of people working here are from their local friends circle, and some of them know this gossip. I think right now I'm just the bad girl in her, her family and friends' eyes. It seems that I'm the one who did everything. I have a lot of details that I just don't want to go deeper. But I found it is the same to most of the people here.

[Gloria25]

Mine is similar. Actually, in my company, a lot of people working here are from their local friends circle, and some of them know this gossip. I think right now I'm just the bad girl in her, her family and friends' eyes. It seems that I'm the one who did everything. I have a lot of details that I just don't want to go deeper. But I found it is the same to most of the people here.

 

Well, wait until as a cop-out he tells her that you're stalking him and he's just this poor victim that all women want

 

That's why thankfully, I'm at the point where I can look at my situation for what it was - I was played by a lowly loser. Nothing pretty, fascinating, and/or desirable about it....Don't wanna be his friend, anything. Actually, I'm waiting for the day for her, his family, and/or him to come on my property so I can call the cops on them.

[anyonecandoit]

Well, wait until as a cop-out he tells her that you're stalking him and he's just this poor victim that all women want

 

That's why thankfully, I'm at the point where I can look at my situation for what it was - I was played by a lowly loser. Nothing pretty, fascinating, and/or desirable about it....Don't wanna be his friend, anything. Actually, I'm waiting for the day for her, his family, and/or him to come on my property so I can call the cops on them.

 

I deactivated my FB account two days ago, and I think I will probably keep it this way forever! No need to be back again, even if one day I have my family and kids. Another reason that I kept from him is that I'm afraid if I really chose to have some physical contact with him, one day her family would come to the office and confront me. I think actually they could do it. Her family background is not American either. Their background is similar to mine.

 

Right now I'm just like this person you have described. I'm such a bad girl that I want to steal other people's treasure!

[Gloria25]

I deactivated my FB account two days ago, and I think I will probably keep it this way forever! No need to be back again, even if one day I have my family and kids. Another reason that I kept from him is that I'm afraid if I really chose to have some physical contact with him, one day her family would come to the office and confront me. I think actually they could do it. Her family background is not American either. Their background is similar to mine.

 

Right now I'm just like this person you have described. I'm such a bad girl that I want to steal other people's treasure!

 

Well, in my case, he's been obsessing over his ex before I came into the picture and he also "friends" other skanks on social media - yet, I'm the one interfering in their fairytale of a love story of a marriage

 

That's why I'm telling you to let go of this guy. Noting against you, I'm sure you're a wonderful person, but this guy doesn't want "you" - he loves the attention. A house plant, if he thought it looked at him would be the next object of his obsession.

[Adoraxx]

this guy doesn't want "you" - he loves the attention. A house plant, if he thought it looked at him would be the next object of his obsession.

 

LOL so true!

[Poppy47]

LOL so true!

 

That is very funny Adora.

 

Thanks for the giggle

Poppy.

[Grapesofwrath]

Where do I start?

 

She's lazy, off-putting, manipulative, sloppy - and as water seeks its own level, she's on his level. They're a match (garbage + garbage).

 

Then, she wants to stare at me as if I've done anything to her marriage instead of focusing on the piece of trash she chose to be her husband.

 

Oh...I see. In your situation, the BW is a piece of garbage in your opinion. I thought you were saying that all BWs are pieces of garbage, and I do not agree with that. In my case, I think the BW is probably a sweet, wholesome SAHM who has no idea what she's married to.

[cocorico]

Given some of the current threads open right now, I thought it might be time for an update.

 

After successfully "breaking up" with xMM back in September for a few weeks, I agreed to his suggestion that we could still be friends. At first, we only met in public, shared some food or a drink, and parted company. That didn't last terribly long. One night, while walking down the street, I looked up to see tears in his eyes. I asked him what was wrong, and he said "I'm lost without you." And I caved. Whether this was an intentional or unintentional manipulation on his part, it worked, and it was not long before we were back in the A, albeit in a much more limited way due to his changing circumstances.

 

(You can read about the past situation here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/other-man-woman/521476-reckoning)

 

Instead of spending the night with me 2-3 nights/week, he would spend a few hours with me a couple nights a week. He had to be mindful of the time, so his niece would not question him when he got home. He was under increased scrutiny by her and other family members who would come by the house unexpectedly. (I wondered if his wife was suspicious that he was philandering and so the family was circling the wagons.) We were not always intimate during these evenings. Sometimes we just had dinner and watched a game on TV or listened to music and talked. I reduced my expectations and needs to a point where they could fit into this little confined space, while also telling myself that I was open to meeting someone single. Even trying some online dating and other pointless gestures. Nothing came of that, of course.

 

I was in a constant state of inner conflict about the continued relationship. I was insulted and angry about the diminished time together. I was lonely and felt like something is better than nothing (it's not, by the way.) More and more I found myself feeling disdain and disgust toward him and his continued lying, and toward myself for allowing it to continue. As time passed, I saw more and more of who he really is as a father/husband/businessman and it was not attractive. I guess it just took a while for my heart to catch up with my head. Once it did, I was ready to end it for real.

 

The final straw was seeing him one night, just snuggling and talking, and then he had to leave. On leaving, he said he loved me and missed seeing me more often, like before. A couple days later he called to say he would be "out of pocket" while on vacation with his family. And poof...no word for 10 days. Knowing him, I knew he would not contact me during his vacation, but would do so the first thing Monday morning, once it was safe. He did exactly that, and something in me snapped. It took longer than I would have liked it to take, but finally my heart caught up with my head.

 

I responded only to tell him that we needed to talk. I arranged a time for that, and told him, briefly, that the A was over. I have severed all contact and, frankly, it has been easy because I was ready. When I tried to do it prematurely, it was painful and anxiety-provoking and ultimately didn't stick.

 

What has been less easy--and the reason why I'm back on LS--is processing the anger I feel toward him. Now that I am out of the fog, I no longer see him as this sweet, confused, loving guy who just lacked the self-awareness to understand his situation. Now I see him as a selfish opportunist who takes every chance in life to get things for himself, regardless of the lying and deception that might be involved. I've seen him do it with me, with work, and with his "friends."

 

I started to think about all the lies I know he told his wife, and all the lies I'm sure he has told to me. I imagined what it feels like for her. I recalled that he told me after one weekend that she questioned him about why he was so distant and asked if he was having an affair. Of course, he denied it and gaslighted her. I tried to imagine that scene and feel it from her perspective.

 

It's also not so easy to examine my own issues, but I'm working on that all the time. Meditating. Taking care of myself. Working out. Spending time with friends. It's been about 6 weeks since we've seen each other. I couldn't be more relieved that I finally did it.

 

When you're ready, you're ready.

 

Well done, Grapes - it seems you're ready

[anyonecandoit]

So yes, at times I used to feel bad for her - nah, just like him, she's not a victim here...she knew what she was marrying and pushed into it head first.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think all BWs are that naive. I mean, the more time you spend with someone, you get to know them. How can you be living under the same roof with them and not "know" them? My 6 year guy and I barely saw each other, but I could finish his sentences. Maybe I'm more of an intuitive person than others? But to tell me that the BWs are just in this cloud of not knowing a thing is just odd to me.

 

Gloria, I have to say that I love you and love the words you said here!!! So true! You have been sleeping with this man for more than ten years and you didn't notice something different in his attitude? I don't believe it. I really don't.

 

A story from my experience. In college, I met a boy in freshman year, he was so crazy about me at first. Then in my junior year, he chose a class not in our department. Then I noticed something different. He seemed so excited about the class. He even said to me that he thought that major had a great future and he was wondering why I didn't choose that major! His dad is a professor in this college, come on, if you believe this major has such a bright future, why you chose the same major as I did? Then one month later, I discovered that he had a crush on a girl in the class. Of course our relationship had to end. At first he seemed so sad and didn't want to. But I know that he was just posing. I know when things change, they do change. Not surprisingly, they were together very quickly.

 

So my point is, even if the girl didn't know what exactly was going on, I really don't believe that she didn't sense anything different. That was impossible! If you didn't even notice this after sleeping with him for more than ten years, no wonder that he was trying to find someone else outside. In my story above, we haven't even slept together.

 

Yes, the BW can just behave as the victims and they are just so innocent and naive. But actually, that's just the picture OW will see. You never know the truth. You never know what they have discussed about you. You never know how he judges you behind your back. And more importantly, BW have a solid ground to be naive, innocent and a poor victim. But as a OW, do you have a solid ground to say that you're the victim that get hurt most? Sorry, you probably cannot even gracefully tell this affair to other people. But BW can, because they're just so victim in this picture. I said this because in my picture, I got to know from someone that she is never as naive and innocent as I thought.

[Grapesofwrath]

Yesterday was opening day of baseball season in my city. Knowing that I love baseball, xMM reached out to me by calling from a work phone line that I can't block. recognized the number and let it go to voicemail. He left a message saying that we hadn't talked in a while, he knows there has been a "shift", was I okay, and suggested we should talk to "clear the air."

 

I texted him the following:

 

got your voice mail

Not really much to talk about

You're married.

You can't offer me anything.

I need to move on with my life and stop being someone's secret.

I deserve more than that. A lot more.

You know all this.its time to face it and deal with it.

 

He responded:

 

Yes, you do deserve better. Never liked being part of bringing you down. I will not try to see you and if or when you ever wanted to get a drink or go for a run I will leave that to you.

 

Have fun in the glow of a killer opening day.

 

I didn't respond again and don't plan to, but I needed to vent (just a little, actually, which is a great feeling) so I'm posting it here.

 

the thing that struck me most was the sense of entitlement. The expectation that I will be back. the minimization of "bringing me down." He never liked it, but I guess he was willing to tolerate it for me? Ugh. we no longer have any work associations so that is the last response he will get from me.

[Doublegold]

Hang in there Grapes you're doing great.

 

I see a bit of bravado in his reply to you. I'm sure he is reeling. If he has a heart, which I think he does (don't see someone who comes across as together as you are spending time with anyone less) he will be having a tough time of it.

 

Go team Grapes!

[heartwhole]

You are being so clear-headed. Good for you.

 

But ugh, his response! You essentially say, I've realized this relationship has nothing to offer me. The door is closed.

 

And he says, yeah, it sucks that he didn't have anything to offer. The door is open.

 

 

NO, the door is CLOSED, you entitled brat! The relationship hasn't "shifted"; it's ended.